When reality catches up to Arizonans for their passage of their misbegotten police-state immigration law, it's going to be ugly and unpleasant. If other states really are considering passing similar laws, they will want to watch what happens to Arizona -- and they will inevitably wind up thinking twice.
We've pointed out previously -- as have the nation's police chiefs -- that the law is almost certain to in fact increase violent crime and dilute law enforcement's capacity to deal with it in Arizona.
And that will only be the first consequence (and a decidedly ironic one, since this law was sold as being a means to crack down on violent crime). The longest-lasting and most significant, however, will be the economic one: When the Latino workforce flees Arizona, their economy will suffer a dramatic downturn unlike any they've seen in decades.
It's already starting to happen:
Arizona’s hard-hitting immigration law is driving Hispanics out of the state weeks before the controversial law goes into effect.
Although concrete figures are not available, anecdotal evidence suggests Hispanics, both legal residents and illegal immigrants, are starting to flee.
Schools in Hispanic neighborhoods are reporting abnormal enrollment drops, and businesses that serve Hispanics also report that business is down, according to a USA Today report published Wednesday.
The report suggests that the immigration law is compounding demographic trends that have already significantly curtailed illegal immigration during the past two years. The bad economy has been the primary deterrent to many Hispanic immigrants seeking to enter Arizona, says Jeffrey Passel, a demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center in Washington.
“If you have a bad economy and a hostile environment, then that’s likely to cause people to think twice about coming, and possibly even to leave,” Mr. Passel says.
... Any loss, however, will be a loss for the Arizona economy, [David Gutierrez, a professor of immigration history, at the University of California San Diego] suggests.
“Latinos...are a highly flexible, highly exploitable work force, a buffer to economic downturns,” he says. “Many of the industries here – agriculture, service industries, low-end manufacturing, construction – are massively dependent on undocumented workers.
“If I were able to conduct an experiment and pay all of Arizona’s undocumented workers to not work for two weeks, the economy would come to a screeching, crashing halt instantaneously.”
This brought to mind a video forwarded to me from my friend Jimmy at McCranium, an Eastern Washington blog, of a Pasco immigration attorney named Tom Roach giving an informational talk to group of local citizens in Kennewick on May 29.
The talk is excellent, and I recommend watching the whole thing if you're interested. Because Roach effectively drills down to the heart of our dilemma with immigration -- namely, our current laws are so screwed up they have no chance of meeting the nation's economic needs or effectively dealing with natural immigration pressures that are driven by not just the economy, but the American Dream itself:
Roach: And then at the bottom of the food chain, as you can see, there are low-skilled workers. So those low-skilled workers are farm workers, janitors, chambermaids, busboys, dishwashers, gardeners, nannies, domestics.
Okay, so every year, the government, the U.S. government, hands out green cards to 5,000 people in that category, low-skilled workers, for the entire country. Five thousand a year. And up till about 18 months ago, this economy created something on the order of 500,000 low-skill jobs. Five hundred thousand low-skill jobs, but only 5,000 green cards.
So if you don't learn anything else tonight, take this home, and that cranky next-door neighbor keeps saying, 'I don't understand why the Mexicans just don't get a green card' -- I think it was in the Tri-City Herald today [actually, it ran May 26, there was a letter to the editor: 'Jeez, why don't they just get a green card before they come up?' It's impossible! It's impossible! It's impossible! OK?
Roach goes on to explain in "500 words or less" -- actually, it's a good deal more, but that's OK, because it still makes great sense -- why we now are faced with a situation where we have 10 million undocumented immigrants in this country: namely, the vast majority of those unskilled jobs are not jobs that native-born Americans are willing to do any longer: harvesting agricultural products, landscaping work, janitorial and other services.
I am reminded of a woman I met on the Dreams Across America train in 2007 who ran a landscaping business in northern California. She told me that when she attempted to hire only documented citizens, she received only three applications for 14 positions, and two of the three quit on the first day, and the third quit on the next. She now hires undocumented workers regularly because they're reliable, hard-working, and do excellent work.
I learned this lesson myself at a relatively early age. When I was in high school in the early '70s, I earned my summer college money by working on farms in southern Idaho -- specifically, I used to be part of an irrigation-pipe hauling crew on a potato-wheat-hay farm near Shelley. It was a formative experience in a lot of ways, because it taught me how to work, and imparted a work ethic I maintain to this day. But it was a hard learning experience -- at the beginning of the summer, like most of my workmates, I hated the job (which entailed hauling twenty-two pieces of twenty-foot-long irrigation pipe twenty yards and forming a new line, for which we were paid $1.25). I had to learn how to shut out the distractions and focus on my work, so that I was eventually able to whip out two lines an hour, and ten lines per morning and evening each. It wasn't a lot of money, but it eventually added up.
Still, as a crew, we seriously sucked. We were unreliable -- some of my workmates never really learned how to put their heads down and work, and whined incessantly, and often just didn't show up, leaving the rest of us to pick up their slack. And the quality of our work was equally unreliable; if a line wasn't properly laid, it would burst when filled with water, meaning the boss had to run down the line and fix it. It seemed he had to do that a lot.
Two years after I graduated from high school, in 1976, I drove out to the farm to visit my old boss. (By then, I had graduated to a high-paying road-construction job for summer college-money work.) I was a little surprised to find that he had replaced his old high-school pipe crews with a crew of Mexican laborers, most of whom I gathered were undocumented. He grinned broadly as he told me how much more reliable they were, how much better workers they were, and how much he enjoyed working with them. It beat spoiled white high-school kids any day.
I understood and sympathized. The reality was that we were relatively spoiled, and were poorly fit for that kind of labor. And we were that way for a reason: because our parents, all our parents, were trying to live the American Dream.
Part of that dream means building a better life not just for yourself but for your children. You want them to have a better life than the one you had, to grow up and get a better job than yours, to move up the ladder just as you have done. So you prepare them to excel in academics and technology and other pursuits -- not in performing hard, low-skill labor. That's the life you want them not to have to lead.
But because we pursue the American Dream, we will always have a need for immigrants, particularly those who perform unskilled labor. As the economy grows, so will the demand for that kind of labor. And we need immigration laws that will help fill that demand rationally and in a controlled way, not through the induced illegality of our current system.
Blaming the immigrants themselves, as the Arizona law does, is not a solution: it only worsens the problem. When Arizona businesses start failing because they cannot obtain a legal workforce under their new regime, the rest of the nation will get to see why just "enforcing the laws we have on the books" is no longer a viable option -- socially, legally, or economically.
stronghold . . not a good place for immigrants to try to "prosper".
Pay those unskilled laborers a living wage and you won't have to rely on disadvantaged illegal immigrants to do it.
what?
But if you are here illegally you need to go home.
If you are a business owner that hires people that are here illegally to avoid paying payroll taxes then you need to go to jail for tax evasion.
It's nothing personal. It just is what it is.
...is impossible. At least without destroying whatever economy we have left. Just the act of "sending them home" (which we often get wrong, i.e. sending people to the wrong country, deporting legal aliens/citizens...)would separate tens of thousands of families, half of whom are legal, reduce consumer spending by several points, cost over $100B, increase prices on just about everything and decrease tourism. It's not at all a viable solution. And as long as you criminalize the behavior, it will remain hidden and increase the potential for violent crime. And remember; most of us are the progeny of "illegal immigrants" from some point....
offers his or her opinion. Let's all choose to live in ignorance and keep living in the darkness.
I am apalled by the the law which seeks to make racial profiling legal. However as a carpenter in New Orleans I have watched jobs I used to get taken by men who are willing to work for 6 and 7 dollars an hour and live four and five to an apartment. This is fine if the volume of work is sufficient to support all of us but during this downturn it's been rough.
There are millions of unemployed Americans. If businesses have to raise salaries to pay US citizens to do that work if the illegals leave, then tough titties.
Actually raising salaries (and prices correspondingly) to the point where it's viable for our unemployed to make a decent living from the jobs formerly taken by illegals will cause all of us to tighten the pocketbook substantially. That may not be a bad thing but you can bet we will head into a second dip of recession, possibly much worse than the first. Is this really what you want?
Would paying a penny more for an apple really cause a second dip of recession?
...but paying the same relative percentage higher for all inter-related services would collapse the economy entirely.
Forcing the corporate farmers to hire Americans and pay minimum wage is not going to crash the economy. If anything it is going to make the economy better because we won't have so many unemployed Americans.
send much of their money back to Mexico or where ever they're from. Low wages earners that are citizens spend almost all of their income here therefore helping the economy.
they buy groceries, pay rent, buy gas, buy clothes, even start businesses and pay suppliers and create jobs. This isn't a simplistic issue.
are you going to be willing to pay twice as much for all of that produce with the "grown in the USA" sticker on it? I submit that most Americans will keep buying the cheapest apples and you'll see the end of various domestic production UNLESSS you can make that change in conjunction with a change in trade policies.
...the USA apples would be more expensive if picked by fair waged labor, which is fine, but produce would not be the only sector collapsed by removing the cheap labor force from the market.
Are you seriously afraid of paying a penny more a pound for asparagus so that an American can have a job?
...but it's a more complex issue than it would seems. Extrapolating all of the additional costs at the labor level leads to billions of dollars worth of new drain on the economy, without much of an upside other than modest gains in domestic unskilled labor. If everyone in America gets a degree, then you'd just have people with degrees making minimum wage at McDonald's. It's the same principle here, but in reverse.
You won't force anything or help any Americans. It's pretty gullible to expect American companies to be loyal to Americans. Corporate farmers will just use NAFTA to move their operations to Mexico and use the cheap labor there. Then even more money leaves the economy and even more Americans get unemployed.
How do you move farmland? Seriously what are they going to do? Get a back hoe, load all the soil into millions of cargo containers, and ship it to Mexico; all as part of a globalist conspiracy to ship farm land overseas.
"Although concrete figures are not available..."
It's going to cost more to place concrete, I can tell you that for sure.
realizing they've shot themselves in both feet.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Out in the Yakima, Wenatchee and Okanogan valleys apples would rot on the trees without immigrant workers to pick them. An Arizona-like law in WA state would devastate the agricultural economy.
Washington apples would be a thing of the past.
It's plain and simple, cruel and inhuman - racism.
They could hire American Citizens to pick those apples. You know... the way they used to hire Americans before the corporate farmers figured out it was cheaper to hire illegal immigrants.
Yes, they could hire citizens and the price of domestic apples would go way, way up. Our "free market" would then have us buying imported apples (cheaper labor dontcha know) and another American industry would crash.
This transition has to be done over some period of time longer than overnight as AZ may learn . . the hard way.
maybe the 1% who own this country will have to cough up some of the loot, and run the country for the benefit of the many, instead of the few.
I think you'll be prying that loot out of their cold dead fingers before they'll be willing part with it voluntarily.
from their cold dead fingers?
Okay!
Or rather, if they die this year (or any year in future if we maintain the Bush Tax Cuts), not a dime of the money they've looted from the work of the other 99% with go towards taking care of that 99%...
Death tax, my ass.
at any time as it devalues your skill, your labor and the skin you have in the game as an American citizen.
it would not.
Just as American farmers receive subsidies to assist in making food and produce imminently more affordable, so would then these farmers.
Using taxes for the benefit of all is not a bad thing as farm subsidies mostly reduce cost at the checkout for ALL.
So, no - an industry would not crumble but would benefit from a balance of government and market input and we would all see benefit in the end result.
I disagree, when I was a kid in the Yakima valley we made our money picking apples and it sure seems like there were plenty to pick. Absolutley no devastation to be seen.
We've just gotten lazy, it's easier to higher illegals than it is to provide a legal working environment.
Just like oil, it's time these "hidden" costs of the "free" market are brought into the open. If it costs more to stop hiring illegals, then it costs more.
I, for one, am once again willing to pick apples if the job were available, but I won't do it as a slave afraid of the INS and my employer, I'll do it as an American.
this is the typical kind of snobbery that comes from the meritocracy, that figure to be the new leaders here in the usa. we are just going to train up our murkins to be better than the rest of the world, then we will let them mexicans do the dirty work; oh, and yes, heaven forbid your children should do manual labor.
jobs are valued by society, and the jobs that pay more, such as derivative traders, do not necessarily benefit society. mr. niewert wants it both ways.
i stay out of this debate, as i don't have much to add, sb-1070 is bad law, but i don't see suggestions as to how to solve illegal immigration. what i do see is that every post is more hysterical than the last, nativists, xenopobes, racists, etc. etc.
we have tens of millions of unemployed americans, what are they supposed to do? where are they supposed to work?
oh, geez, i forgot, we are all going to go to engineering school, and build our own windmills.
there are skyscrapers in mexico, and people who live on private estates, just like here - just a thought - how about the government of Mexico take care of their own people? it is the worst kind of racism to assume they can't.
another thought, how about employers in the US pay a living wage?
Yes.
Lew
Fighting the Christian American Taliban daily.
how a house built by legal americans doesn't cost anymore than a house built by non legals is any cheaper the profit margins are only better for the builder and in a consumer driven economy who can all those whiz bang gadgets on a walmart salary?
that works for houses, which can't really be imported or moved. But as someone else points out, it wouldn't be true for anything even resembling a commodity, like apples. How many people really look to see where the products they purchase are made/grown? I suspect that faced with a wall of, say, hammers, the cheapest one usually wins, even though the more expensive ones are made in this country.
"SterilizeTheNeoCons"... really?
C'mon. If people are going to accuse you of having political views which resemble Nazi principles, you probably shouldn't advocate any form of eugenics.
They enacted such a law because the federal gov't wouldnt do anything to fix the broken system.
Always remember that. It is a talking point. They dont want more immigration. They want even less. They are legitimizing that law by deferring blame to the Federal system.
Once the federal system comes up with anything that gives immigrants currently in the U.S a path to citizenship it wil be labeled AMNESTY (big scary word)
They want the borders secured, which I want as well. Once that is done they will want something else as an excuse, what they will not want is any type of path to citizenship.
Always remember republicans are good with words to get the masses to sway to there talking points.
Well, at least they won' have to worry about finding cheap labor to cut their lawns.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
The previously retired elderly, finding their savings greatly diminished by Wall Street plundering, will return to the workforce in droves. I am a little concerned about their trimming the hedges in 120 degree weather but the market has spoken!
work fine in 120 degree weather. It is the damn golf course maintenance I worry about.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
bizarre!
Low wages are a problem. If people want clean hotel rooms they must pay the increased cost of citizen labor, rather than having it subsidized by hiring low wage anchor baby factories.
If that's tough, stay at Motel 6 and clean your own damn room.
Too many Catholics running around loose already. Didn't we learn antything from the Irish plague and Italian invasion?
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
but the bigger heavier ones will take a lot longer.
With motels you have the choice of the expensive one or the cheaper one across the street - no net loss of visitation to that area. With apples your choice will be domestic (expensive) or foreign grown (cheaper). Bye, bye apple industry unless some form of "unfair trade" is enacted ("unfair" by rightwing standards).
All their boats are lifted by wenches. Which should only be operated by pink people of Protestant persuasion.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
or winches?!
with what a Winch Wench might look like.
Isn't it racist to say that the "Latino work force will flee Arizona," as if every Latino in the state were an illegal immigrant?
to be presumed as such by law enforcement. Same difference.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
...the indication was that Latinos, regardless of immigration status, are either leaving or planning on it soon. Just like I, a law abiding citizen, would leave this area if I were told that they were going to start asking every white guy for his papers as if he were a criminal, just for being white...
if you are appalled then take a moment and dont just read the hoopla read what the law actually states. Its not racial profiling, like the media is playing it up to be. Just as everyone that performs a crime or gets pulled over you have to produce an id of sorts. If you cannot you go to jail. In this particular case, they get detained and ready to be deported. No other country in the world allows immigration to happen like America has. If you would like an example go to Mexico, Australia, or some European nation and not have a visa, id, or some form of identification and see where a person could end up.
Now Australia was as you say. You either had VISA or you paid cash.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
You are not required by law to have ID in the US unless you are driving, entering a govt. building applying for things, etc that requires it. You are not required to have ID just for standing on the street when one of Joe Arpiao's sweeps happen.
I find it hilarious that people think a law that requires racial profiling by it's very nature will avoid it just because they wrote a provision in it saying that they won't. This is like making a law requiring everyone to get wet on demand and then saying that throwing water on people is illegal. It is a fraud.
What American Dream?
Two SUV's in the garage, granite counter tops, bills, debt?
Even legalized Americans cannot achieve the American Dream. Even if you work hard and save every dime, Uncle Sam and his cronies are sitting there waiting to knock you down and make you start from the beginning. Kinda like a "Big Brother" and your Lincoln logs as a kid.
that's the point. Now days, in order to be dreaming you need to be asleep.
the American dream, it is having the chance to get rich quick.
Which is why we resent illegal aliens. Due to experience they are better at playing the lottery.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
“Don’t forget that most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor.” – John Dickinson
I think the truth is somewhere between there and "libertarians maintain stupid viewpoints".
has turned into 'THE AMERICAN NIGHTMARE'
I suppose it's our oppressive tax burden that's holding you back?
Don't confuse Uncle Sam with the people on the other end of strings attached to his arms and legs.
Free Market Capitalism?
My American dream has been nothing but a nightmare the past 5+ years. I'm glad to see someone can still make it in this country.
I'm reminded of the HGTTG series, as if we've become a nation of middle managers, and prefer to outsource everything else.
Too many people here believe that they're "too good" for hard labor, take no pride in their work / have no work ethic, and too many businesses pay too little. I'd assume without a minimum wage souless corporations like Wal-Mart would still be shafting workers for insanely low wages.
nobody in the US will die of a disease contracted from a dirty telephone...
"I could give a flying crap about the political process.... We're an entertainment company."
- Glenn Beck - Forbes interview; April 26, 2010
The premise of this article is wrong, in that it assumes that the only source of unskilled labor is through employment visas. Quite, quite WRONG. The U.S. admits 800,000 legal immigrants each year under family reunification. This group includes adult kids, parents, and siblings of citizens, many of whom will also join our workforce. Many of these are also unskilled or uneducated workers although even more educated workers may find that they need to do unskilled jobs for a while. For example, I once tutored an Indian woman who had been sponsored, with her husband and son, for a family visa which took 12 years to get. She had a master's degree in Indian history (not much demand for that here) and a weak command of English so was working two unskilled jobs to support the family, one in a cafeteria and the other in a grocery store. Her husband worked in a factory. In short, we already have a route for unskilled workers to enter this country. For that matter, by definition, unskilled workers are fungible so what would and should be the basis for selection? You can bet were we to allow more visas specifically for unskilled workers, we'd see one heck of a lot more of the fraud and corruption such as bribery. I recall reading several years ago where educated and skilled Asians bribed someone to get visas to work on the East Coast picking crabs or some such unskilled job--and left the company as soon as they got green cards.
Well, for one, I am still very opposed to the Arizona Law. The following statements do not excuse it.
There are plenty of farmers in my area of the south that have had to transition to "legal" illegals. I know at least two manual labor/service businesses working through paperwork now. So, lets assume (which I also don't but that part of the argument is too long - and yes there needs to be a transition not like AZ's folly) that we need immigrants to do the manual labor. My local tech college has a great GED program for migrant farm workers. I've been a farm owner as well as worker during my lifetime. I know my way around a Schedule F.
Those "immigrants" the person in the video talks about aren't legally immigrants. They don't get green cards; that's a total red herring. They are all on H1-B's. Now usually you think of them as the work visa's for high tech workers, and they are. But that is what is used for legal manual labor now.
Injured? H1-B canceled.
Want to report a rape by farm staff? H1-B canceled.
Want to talk to someone about your miscarriages due to pesticides? H1-B canceled.
Try to unionize your plant after severe injuries, no payment for overtime? H1-B canceled.
Report when the teenage son of farmer steals your stuff? H1-B canceled.
See how this works?
ICE and local sheriffs already act as enforcers for the abusers. So of course, AZ law makes legal and illegal migrants unwilling to report crimes. I'm glad Neiwert knows a moral farmer. I know some too. But I've also seen over the last two decades how this power over the workers lets even people moral in the rest of their lives become abusive since they can. And this sort of power will corrupt most eventually.
When H1-B is used in this way it is immoral. I want no part of it. Green Card is a red herring. Absolutely this system needs reform.
(And AZ is still being idiotic about it.)
do a search on Smithfield Foods in Tar Heel, NC.
I did not realize H-1B was being used this way.
I know about the use of H-1B visas to hire foreign academicians at very low salaries and the effect that has had on highly qualified Americans trying to find work in American colleges and universities.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
those academics are "exempt" from the cap. They can hire as many as they want, and still leave the capped H1-B's for the guy that uses them for people to do tree work (with no safety gear). Real story.
taller ghost walt correctly identified one of my anecdotes from my years around farms and low-wage NC too.
Community Colleges now require PhD's .. and pay shit wages.
Some foreign nationals speak excellent English, but some are an absolute disaster in the classroom.
In the state university math dept where I taught, the only students who would enroll in one of the recent hire's classes were the Chinese students who would ask questions in Chinese and get answers in Chinese.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
to be happy with a Master's, if the school granting the degree or rest of resume is good enough.
Absolutely crap wages, not even 12 month employment for most employees. My friend with a Masters in an engineering field who works at one has a new car. The blue book value is under $500. Not the vehicle you think of for a middle-aged person with a marketable Masters, decades of excellent work experience in industry and academia with consistently good performance reviews is it?
Since receiving my PhD, I haven't managed to get an interview for a teaching job, and I've applied to small community colleges as well as major universities.
Right now the reward for not getting pregnant for millions of young women is a minimum wage job at Wal-Mart or McDonalds with no possibility of advancement or making a decent living.
as an economic food chain.
Try going to a junior college to study economic foodchains and your accredited degree resume will look more bobble head than level head.
... And David Neiwert -
Please stop writing these shock pieces about "Arizonans for their passage of their misbegotten police-state immigration law."
You sound detached and unfamiliar with Arizona and I don't expect to see your future article about the Arizona boycott and that it actually ended.
I'm an Arizonan and I don't ever hear you ask Arizonans about who actually makes law in this state.
I'm not going to rent a U-Haul and move across a state line because of your weak research about the real Arizona.
Chicago voted just last week not to do business with Arizona companies.
heads up--Arizona is still part of the union and subject to the Constitution. ALL of the Constitution.
Making these crazy illegal laws is just going to cost your state money as they get struck down over and over.
The Wallace girl.
You know, the young mother in Tucson that can't find a job.
C&L did a piece about her about 10 days ago. Maybe you forgot. That's easy to do when you're looking for a fight instead of a solution.
Maybe she should donate to C&L so you and your boys will call off the heat.
Knowing what this state is about would involve a diverse viewpoint but Chicago, Los Angeles and others can't seem to see the forest for the trees.
I live in this state. I know all about it and I am furious at what is happening. Please stop using your own residency to act like you speak for all of Arizona.
This crazy crap has been pushed for years here and there was one check and balance against it: Janet Napolitano. . . who the VOTERS kept putting in there even though she was blocking these things. Then our "brilliant" President pulled her out of her chair to serve his own needs. . . leaving us with an unelected governor to sign all the crazy crap before a new election. . . screwing us in the process.
Compare the number of Green Cards issued each year:
.. to the number of H-1B visas issued each year:
Now consider how difficult it has been for Americans to get highly skilled jobs here in the US for the last decade .. even longer in some professions ..
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
A renewal doesn't count as a new one. So you need to multiply these numbers by more than 6, also there are H2-B's now too.
An H1-B holder after being here long enough can apply for a Green Card. I know so many high tech workers that have. I think H2-B workers can't apply for the green card. Ahh the smell of a permanent underclass, codified in the law, in the morning ....
It's that native-born Americans won't do that work for no pay and benefits.
When you hire undocumented workers you can ignore labor laws and safety regulations and minimum wage/overtime laws. Who are they going to complain to? How will they even know they are being exploited, especially if they are earning far more than they would in Mexico?
Even H1B visa employees often don't realize they are entitled to national holidays or the 40 hour work week. Americans who complain are fired, if they are even hired in the first place.
If it's hard, manual labor, Americans expect to be paid well for it. Companies that hire undocumented workers are unwilling to pay a legal wage for the work. They'd rather pay less and hire illegally than take a cut to their profits by paying an appropriate wage.
Which is why legislation should focus exclusively on the companies that hire undocumented workers. The companies are the ones breaking laws and hurting the economy by doing so.
In the SouthEast many family owned construction businesses were put out of business by contractors who hired only undocumented labor.
As you say, it's not that Americans aren't willing to do the work, it's that Americans aren't willing to do the work without being paid a decent wage and reasonable benefits.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
says it all.
“Latinos...are a highly flexible, highly exploitable work force, a buffer to economic downturns,”
Meaning they can be used to force wages down for the legal population and whether they do better work or not, the American Dream takes a hit from this practice. It does nothing to bring the middle class back to any level of stability.
The illegal immigrant worker does not know, nor should he or she even care, what his work at a sub-living wage, is doing to the Americans who are trying to find something resembling a dream in this country.
He is merely the pawn in the game and his willingness to work for less than is legal hurts every one of us.
The common denominator is the hiring class using undocumented workers to make more profit by paying lower wages.
As this commonality creeps into the spectrum of all labor, the gross standard of living continues to suffer.
Just because someone is willing to take less pay for a job does not mean they are to be commended for the practice, nor is the hiring agent to be commended for using the system for his/her gain at the expense of reform.
David,
Still making the "jobs Americans won't do" argument in 2010, eh? Wow, I feel like I'm in a time warp. I thought it was 2004 for a moment.
There's a little problem with unemployment in this country, David. And yes, those unemployed people do take jobs that "Americans won't do." After immigration raids on factories and slaughterhouses, there's a big line of Americans for those jobs the very next day. There was a raid on a factory in Louisiana a few years ago, and the legal American employees applauded as the illegals were taken away.
Also, look at all the Latinos on welfare! The first generation works, but the second generation gets the welfare and affirmative Full Ride. It may be a good deal for greedy employers lookign for short term profits, but it's a very bad deal for Americans.
Lastly, we could easily solve the "unskilled labor problem" by ending most welfare, except in extreme cases. I don't think FDR was talking about welfare mothers with 6 kids from 6 different babydaddies when he would use his catchphrase "widows and orphans." Those babymommas sure as hell aren't widows!
This post is so dishonest, and so insulting to Americans, implying that we are lazy, that only a True Believer like yourself, or a woefully ignorant person, can see this as anything but a past-expiration date rehash of talking points from a group of people who want to Elect a New People through Immigration.
You are definitely not loyal to the USA, Mr. Neiwert.
Yep, starving children by ending welfare when; minimum wage doesn't pay a living wage, there's no day care, gas costs are soaring, and little reliable public transportation will solve all our problems.
Second generation Latinos and women with six kids by six different fathers on welfare? C'mon, you forgot the Cadillac talking point!
And about those "widows and orphans"...When did Social Security survivors' benefits become welfare?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
my mother couldn't find a comparably paying job to my dads income after he died.
...rather than die: No Social Security benefits.
skypelanguageteacher isn't talking about Social Security, though, and s/he isn't even talking about immigration. S/He's using this forum to make some dodgy comments, though, that, quite frankly, strike me as racist.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
skypelanguageteacher chides David for accusing Americans of being lazy even as he accuses 2nd generation Latinos (i.e. Americans) of being lazy. Maybe it would be easier to follow this argument if skypelanguageteacher simply referred to "white Americans" and "brown Americans" when distinguishing between these two groups and separating the good Americans from the bad ones.
racist.
Oy, you called me a wacist!
You won the argument! Please don't call me a wacist! boo hoo
Racism, Schmacism. Google that.
You are a very misinformed bigot. All second generation Hispanics are on welfare? God forbid you have teacher in your username because someone pays you to do so.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
All pro-immigration people are anti-American; i.e., I've yet to see a pro-immigration argument that didn't deride Americans for being lazy and/or dumb.
It divides the republican base from their masters. The corporatists love everything about cheap labor.
Now, how to get the focus off of immigrants and on to employers and trade policy . . ?
here, but we would not be in such an economic downturn if we had not embraced NAFTA and the like and not allowed the CEO to worker pay to raise from 40-1 in 1970 to 411-1 in 2010 and over 1000-1 for the top 400 CEO earners in the country.
In addition, we would have avoided this mess by employing living wage standards and providing universal health care, equal public K-12 opportunity, and higher education up to an including PhD levels through public funding.
Last but not least - term limits and public funding of elections would be the final two chest compressions to get this country off life support and begin to heal our head-to-toe injuries of neglect.
.. and re-instate progressive taxation ..
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
yeah.
To at least the rates we saw pre-California Clown.
for writing the most insightfull posts on this thread. This is an excellant thread to follow -- thanks to all.
Public/Corporate -funding of elections has to be addressed in the USA soon - or we will be in deeper than we ever imagined. The Supreme Court is turning into a Wacko-Court - listeneing to Limbaugh to get their views - I fear.
$1.25 an hour was minimum wage in the early 70s.
It would have to be $10 an hour to have equivalent buying power now.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
that he is positing that it is noble to receive very little for a day's work and that this dirty nobility should now be embraced by the rest of us.
He said he got $1.25 per irrigation pipe he laid, not per hour. I believe he said he managed to get 2 or 3 of them done in an hour.
I tried to find work in housekeeping, office cleaning, and such and never got anywhere. Perhaps it was my Irish name?
Did you run an ad on Craigslist? I had an American citizen clean my place saturday. I found her on Phoenix's Craigslist.
Also, sounds like people are wising up regarding the situation(s) in Arizona. Thank you!
Won't do for such low wages and illegal working condition. The Vineyards of Napa, Sonoma and the wine counties, hire only illegals because they cant find any US citizens willing to work for $7 an hour 12-15 hours a day, no overtime, no bathrooms, which is totally illegal.
If they had to pay real wages, and abide by OSHA and other laws to protect workers from exploitation, it might raise the cost of wine by a few dollars a bottle. So, all you wine snobs and others who buy all that wine, remember, you are supporting it all. Now you cant say you don't know, you are the problem and hyprocrites because you wont hold the wine makers to a decent standard for their workers, because its easier to exploit illegals, so you can save $5.
The reason the agriculture industry loves illegal labor is because they can make more money, and think the US likes cheap lettuce more than fair working conditions for us workers. Same for Meat and other industries.
10 million Illegals, 10 million unemployed Americans. Oh, but we don't want those jobs, just won't do them for sub standard wages and illegal working conditions.
Immigration reform would be great (and the Repubs won't allow a debate on it because they'd rather blame Obama for causing the Arizona law, because of course Obama is responsible for their failure to do their jobs) -- where I work we've have trouble hiring Americans because not enough Americans want to do research postdocs (they'd rather get MBAs and make more money), so we have to hire at least some foreign workers, and there are not enough H1B visas available -- last year DHS got twice as many applications as they had H1Bs on the first day of applications. In the meantime, I know a contractor who has a terrible time employing Americans for $12-14/hr -- he hires young guys who go on smoke break as soon as they get to work, and then leave for lunch. (Not that all young workers are lazy, but there are quite a few who don't make the transition to full-time work very well.)
If there were better immigration laws AND better enforcement (EEV is easy to use if your HR department has a rational person administering it -- who recognizes that sometimes there are typos on soc sec cards, and rather than firing the person on the spot, they get an extension while the employee gets his corrected card), then all contractors etc. would have a level playing field. This might make wages go up, which - fine, but it would be fairer for everyone.
Thanks for the clip and the writeup...
...of non-native ancestry, won't they have to change the state's name to something very Amurikan-sounding? How about Dry Hot Place Run by Assholes?
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