Meet The Press: Gov. Granholm calls out Mitt Romney for peddling debunked auto worker myths
By SilentPatriot Monday Dec 15, 2008 6:45am
Mitt Romney was wanking forth on MTP Sunday about the horrendous disadvantage American automakers have because of labor costs, only briefly mentioning the 800-pound gorilla in the room -- namely, health-care costs -- as "benefits."
Gov. Jennifer Granholm of Michigan set him straight:
One of the reasons there is a cost disadvantage is that other countries provide health care for their citizens. In America, we put that entire burden on business.
Mittens nonetheless tries to regurgitate the "$70-an-hour" lie:
Romney: The companies across the ocean have come here, made plants in the U.S. -- Nissan, Toyota, and Honda -- they're able to make cars at $45 an hour labor costs plus benefits and legacy costs, our cost is $73 an hour --
Granholm: It is not! That has been totally debunked -- now, you know, Mitt Romney, that this is not --
Romney: Labor costs and legacy costs and benefits is $73 an hour.
Maybe Romney should ask those companies where they stand on national subsidization of their industry. Because back in Japan, they understand that underwriting their manufacturing capacity is the key to a competitive economy ... which is why they keep the yen artificially low. This subsidization is part of why those same automakers can operate at lower cost here.
Romney and the Republicans have made it clear that Detroit can go suck eggs. They just don't want to say it on TV.
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Weren't they trying to destroy unions and reduce people to begging hordes who'd work for bread in, like, the 1920s? Good to to see Mitt upholding the old traditions.
All those retirees should go ahead and die, and decrease the cost of pension and health care funds!
- Ebenezer Mitt Scrooge
Bankruptcy! Bankruptcy!
Then we can dump these retirees on the U.S. taxpayers!
-Mitt Scrooge II
A GOPer who lies, spin and distorts on behalf of his corporate masters. Who knew?
Mittens is like a cross between a slick televangelist and a slick used car salesman, You can tell by just looking at the guy he's a sleezy dirtbag.
He's a lying sack of shit, and screw this respect given to him because his old man was an automobile executive. That's his old man, not Mitt! We've seen how little sons can be like their fathers, (Cough, Cough, Bush!)
It just doesn't matter who blames who, or what dollar amount is thrown around, not the least bit. At the end of the day, the auto industy's Big 3 are virtually bankrupt. The only thing that will save them, and all those jobs, is complete restructuring. With that restructuring, as painful as it's going to be, is going to be job losses (prob major) and wage cuts.
It isn't right that they are focusing on the union waged assemblers making $30/hour at all when the bloated CEO divisions are in the millions, but, at the end of the day, concessions (major ones) are going to have to be made by the workers, or they just won't have jobs. And, even then a pile of them won't have jobs. The industry is almost done. It's expanded to the point where it has to shrink to survive.
They want the auto industry to die a slow death by cholesterol?
I'm surprised they didn't have Palin on the panel, what with all her business experience running Wasilla.
Mitt will say or do anything. He's plastic when we need paper. He just repeats the republican talking points while Granholm is trying to state the facts. A whole bunch of republicans hate the hell out of facts and reality. It's been a long time since they had to deal with them. That's all about to change.
Jennifer Granholm is a tough cookie, when she was Attorney General in Michigan she handed the Reptiles their heads.
As Governor she has done as well as could be expected in an impossible situation. We in Michigan are, and have been in a depression for some time.
Here we have Mittens, the phucking Fat Cat cheerleader and apologist extraordinaire and his sidekick Carly Fiorina who has demonstrated adequately she cannot run a company, both trying to tell us the autoworkers make too much.
This while the Fat Cats skim millions and millions off the top.
They are Reptiles.
Their heads should roll down the Capitol building steps.
I would like to mess up his hair, then kick him in the nuts! Then strap him to the hood of my car in a dog cage, and drive him around the great state of Michigan to tour all the closed plants!
All the while having a blaring speaker describe in detail the new 94% tax rate for aristocrats like him!
I really hope you are kidding. Grandholm a tough cookie? All she does is whine and raise taxes. She has never stood up to anyone. She has never made a tough decision. She is a typical democrat in other words. The big 3 are no more. Chrysler will be sold no matter what Jenny says. Jobs will be cut no matter what Jenny says. And Michigan will remain a diaster because of Jenny. Where is John Engler when we need him?
John Engler was a right wing hatchet man. Go to Red State and praise him there.
Is not why are the UAW workers paid so much but why are the domestic Toyota and Honda workers paid so little? Mittens, would you be happy if we cut the UAW wages down to zero? Would cars be free?
But online posts indicate that Toyota and Honda workers make almost the same per hour. Either/or it doesn't matter what wages any of them make. The entire industry worldwide is in economic turmoil. I guess mass producing isn't such a great idea when nobody can mass buy. The electronics industry will prob be the next group looking for a bailout. Time will tell.
It would be a lie to say that $70 per hour is the wages of workers. But that's not what he said! He very clearly identified 3 things in his figures: "1) labor costs, 2) benefits, and 3) legacy costs." He even said it both times.
Now you can disagree all you want about whether auto industry should be paying these benefits & retirees, but on what basis SilentPatriot do you claim he lied?
are considered by Mittsy to be labor related costs and the "fault" of organized labor... which is the TRUE target here.
All Mittsy wants to do is help his corporate brothers bust the unions. He doesn't give a rat's ass about the economy or what his policies do to the working class because he's not one OF the working class, never has been and never has to worry about it.
I'm getting sick and tired of rich, spoiled brats taking the silver spoon out of their mouths just long enough to tell me that I need to go without for the good of... well... THEM!
after all, I live in Tax-achussetts, but he was right here.
a) Granholm was WRONG to indicate he was comparing the costs to foreign manufacturers who "supply or subsidize healthcare" - Mitt was referencing - and said he was referencing- foreign automakers with plants in the US. NEITHER the $73 or $40 includes national or subsidized healthcare.
b) the $ 73 v. $ 40 "per hour" costs is a comparison figure that is used by car companies to figure out the "labor" cost of building a car. Neither wage is actually paid to the worker.
c) commenter above correctly points out - as did Mitt, that there are three parts to the $73 figure. Moreover, The "legacy" cost is mostly pensions of laborers no longer on the payroll but nevertheless a cost to manufacturer that must be calculated into the cost of building a vehicle.
Granholm is probably right to defend her consituency and to a degree I admire her. Still, I think there are other ways to do it than to keep feeding the Big Three to fail. She went down a more productive path when she talked about retraining, extended unemployment benefits and most of all, GREEN JOBS to replace the automakers.
You are wrong! Without manufacuring, we will never be wealthy again! We simply need to eliminate the greedheads at the top - for the benefit of all!
Even though the Japanese manufacturer's pay health insurance in the U.S., they don't in their own country.
That still gives them a huge advantage!
Good ending! That third paragraph was great!
Retirees are lumped into one group which includes Union Hourly workers and Non-union Management employees.
Management generally earn higher salaries than Union Workers and their Retirement Benefits reflect that.
If Management employees Legacy costs were calculated separately; what would be their part?
which are a huge part of the "legacy" costs
Are these "legacy costs" the benefits for already-retired workers that the repuglicans are including in their funny math to get to the $70 number?
They been polishing their Orwelian rhetorical skills. Twisting the numbers around is still lying.
Yes these costs are added into the Reptiles funny math.
That incudes the energy costs to run the factories while they are working.
And the water $$$$ for them to have restrooms. Those damn workers is sooo expensive!
The problem with the 'legacy cost', it only includes the union workers and retired worker. Has anyone considered the cost/hr on what the CEO, VP, Senior VP boardroom member and upper management, etc. make per hour? I'm sure it's greater than $70/hr.
has been reported as $25 mil/year.
There are probably stock options on top of that. And a severance guarantee no doubt.
$12,000 an hour for a 40 hour week.
Those poor, poor fat cats.
UAW new hires are down to $14/hr. Only slightly better than a grocery clerk.
Canadian Auto Worker's starting wage is almost $24/hour according to their website's last negotiated contracts with the Big 3. That's listed as an unskilled assembler. Skilled trades are higher. Not a huge wage, but nothing to sneeze at either in my neck of the woods. The problem is going to be that they can pay them $100/hour, but if nobody is buying, they sit at home.
Who's the head and board of CAW
A murder of crows?
Ken Lewenza
President, CAW-Canada
If you would like to see the contracts of the CAW here is the link:
http://www.caw.ca/en/3579.htm
the Canadian plants are more productive than the American plants and produce a much higher quality product. So I feel that the Canadian worker deserves the higher rate, as in many companies, the better you work the more you can earn.
Way back when, the big three were making billions and the car companies settled with the UAW and the CAW for the agreements that the workers deserved and won in negotiated contracts. Nobody in government were screaming that the workers were paid too much.
Back then, the big three marketing machine was good at convincing the public that their products were what we needed and wanted and must have. Quality and design were not an issue. "(IF WE BUILD IT - YOU WILL BUY IT"). But the Japanese and Koreans and the Germans came to our markets with cars that initially were not the best looking cars on the block, but they sure did last a long time. When those foreigners found they were not producing what we wanted they changed it to something we would buy and their warranties eventually gave us more years of ownership without the fear of big repair bills. When we started getting sick and broke from replacing our American/Canadian cars made every three years or so because we were afraid they wouldn't last without mega repair bills we starting noticing that our neighbours who had purchased these foreign cars and they liked them and they weren't paying the dollars we were for repairs and they got more than 12 months warranty we started buying from the new guys on the block; so much so that they opened assembly plants in North America and to this day we support their efforts to give us what we want. The BIG THREE never learned that the educated customer controls what you manufacture, not only in design but quality......we no longer "buy it because you built it". Until they learn this lesson they will continue to have problems.........Maybe if they recover from this and they actually learn, we might have an auto industry we can be proud of and support.
These costs (CEO, VP, Senior VP boardroom member and upper management) are also added into the average cost per hour.
Which is exactly why it is so inflated! But of course the crook romney is well aware of that. He just hopes there's enough suckers out there who don't that will buy his garbage.
in the legacy costs is the number of years that the Auto manufactors have been in business. The big 3 have been here for years. The foreign auto makers haven't. That's why there is a difference. That is why there is a $27 spread between the 70 and the 43 basically. However, see my post below for the actual difference in the wages paid per hour for workers now.
The UAW has made concessions over the the last 3 contracts. The next one goes into effect in 2011. It is the latest.
Even though the CEO's have stated they will work for $1 this next year that doesn't help with what they have earned in the past. However Ford's and Chrysler's CEO's have only been there for a couple of years. GM has been there for a while. I can't remember off the top of my head how long but it has been a number of years. That is one reason they are calling for him to resign. More than the others.
Telling the middle class. That we make to much money.
Aren't these assholes beyond the pale!
And 45% of the idiots in this country are cheering them on, even as their own lifestyle evaporates before their very eyes.
It's un-freaking believable to watch!
This whole CEO pay thing is just a red herring.
The shareholders of the company are the ones who can change high executive compensations. If the shareholders are content with the CEO of a failing company making millions, then the shareholders deserve to eat crow when the company goes bankrupt.
The auto bailout is not to protect worker jobs but to protect the interests of the investors (many of whom are large pension and 401k funds). if they really wanted to protect worker jobs, they would force a massive restructuring of the company to make it competitive with the rest of the world.
The shareholders have very little control over the company, that is a myth that maybe you wish were true.
Certainly the shareholders might wish it were true.
Here is an argument that concedes the lack of, and is mostly against increased shareholder control.
Your shareholder votes dont even count unless you own a huge block anf those people are in with the ceo's You only get to vote which crooks get to divy up the money.
A shareholder has the ultimate control...simply sell your shares.
No one is holding a gun to your head saying you must own these shares or you must work at this company. We do have choices. Unfortunately, a lot of the complaints I hear (on this board) are from people who think they have no choice when really they are just scared to change.
I doubt 'playboy' Romney could get a job in a Chinese Slinky factory.
http://www.ls-dyna.cn/images/slinky.jpg
Word on the street is that the Chinese Slinky factories are looking for bailouts too. It's too bad trickle down toys aren't coping well with the economy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X41Tq3svxNY
Romney is right about one thing: if you don't pay your employees a living wage your company will definitely be more profitable. And with no universal health care, and Romney's wish to eliminate corporate health benefits AND a living wage for workers, the American life expectancy will be about 40 years.
making what the Chinese workers currently make, there will lots of workers here.
Paid next to nothing, with no safety or environmental protection.
However, they will not be the ones buying any of the products.
Eliminating multimillion dollar golden parachutes and CEO bonuses could knock that new car sticker price down a notch for the American consumer but I didn't hear Mittens mention that in his list of cost savings. With the GOP It;s all about the rich getting richer at the expense of the working class taking the hit.
Surprise, surprise.
Now that Mitten's failed presidential bid is over, which was the reason he gave for his sons not going to Iraq because they were showing their "patriotism" for helping with his campaign, I keep waiting for him to announce which of his 5 young strapping boys of fighting age will be shipping off to Iraq to help fight the war Mittens supports for somebody else's kids to fight.
Mittens a combat dodging chickenhawk himself, the apples don't fall far from the tree I'm sure.
Saudi Arabians fly passenger jets into the World Trade Centre, etc., and Iraq gets invaded. Wall Street destroys the world economy, and Detroit gets invaded.
I can hardly wait for 2012 when Mitt Romney and Sarah Palin go for each other's jugular in the Republican primary with only one left standing to face defeat in the general election effectively ending both their political careers.
You betcha.
Can someone tell me what the true wage of domestic auto workers is? I keep hearing that $70-73/hr is exaggerated, but no follow up with "the real dollar amount is more like ..." What irritates me is that message carriers like Mitt Romney understand that if you throw out a number and then make sure all of your other message carriers say it too, to make sure it has maximum press absorption, no matter how bogus it is that becomes the number that people believe/refer to. Is the UAW doing a better job of getting out their message and I'm just not reading the right press?
This is an issue my boss is very familiar with, half his family works for a US auto companies, it is no mystery that US auto benefits are better than US/Japanese auto benefits to people in Michigan.
I love to take shots at greedy incompetent execs like anyone else but if hard reality falls on he other side of the fence then it can't be dealt with unless it is acknowledged.
I don't think C&L is helping this debate by trying to act like it's all a lie and not a real issue.
I would like the see these figures as well. I sure wish C+L would find them and post them.
To put to rest the case of the wage difference...it is constantly being stated the UAW workers are paid more than the foreign car makers. Here is what was found in a study done by After Market News:
In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.
$27/hour...
Toyota workers in Kentucky plant made more than UAW members last year
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/31/toyota-wor...
I know it's popular to defend the unions, throw the execs pay into the light of day as you should, by all means throw their huge pay to the wolves. It doesn't really matter what the exact dollar amount is for the autoworkers pay is because it IS still significantly more that the U.S. plants Nissan, Toyota, and Honda. This pay problem has been known about for years as being one of the issues that has kept the big three from being competitive, hardly a mystery, as has been reported for a long, long time from every major news outlet since at least 2005.
Granholm’s own point shoots itself in the foot.
Well that isn't the case in the US anywhere yet so someone has to pick up the bill and in this case it's the companies. Yet US/Japanese co's still pay less than the US auto co's.
C&L is missing or ignoring the most basic of economics on this point. Maybe someone at C&L can explain how US autos are going to compete effectively against Japanese imports when the majority body of workers earns more than the competition? If your expenses are higher (whatever the number) than the competitions how are you going to compete?
You can’t
By applying tariffs to manufactured goods made outside the United States that reflect the difference in labor costs and finally joining the rest of the industrialized world and institute single payer health care.
Normally I might agree with tariffs but in this market a trade war is the last thing we want
the big 3 made health care promises decades ago (legacy costs), and those promises are now coming due at a much higher cost than originally projected. Because health care costs have gone out of sight.
The Japanese companies operating in the USA, being relatively new here, don't have those legacy costs (yet), which gives them a price advantage of about $2000 per car.
Meanwhile, trying to lump legacy costs into an artificial "hourly cost per worker" and then pretending it applies to rank-and-file assembly line workers is utter baloney. The GOP is scamming us.
And of course what's really needed is a whole new approach to health care in this county.
Part of the cost that these Reptiles throw into the mix is the pay for senior executives. They don't tell you this. GM CEO makes $25,000,000 a year. Toyota exec makes $1,200,000 a year. It is this way all the way down the ladder.
Simple solution to that problem is for YOU to go and get a low paying job with no benefits at one of the US automakers. Problem solved! OH WAIT! You don't mean YOU should be paid poorly and have no benefits! YOU mean other Americans should! I SEE!!!
Being almost bankrupt, the big 3 will still dole out the Christmas bonuses negotiated into the contracts? Work 26 weeks and the bonus is $600!!
UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year
Many companies charge more for their products and/or services than their competition. If they are smart they also pay their staff a higher rate of pay than their competetors because they are the best. The principle is simple, give the customer a superior product or service add what is called "valued added" supplements that don't add to the already higher cost. Have the best staff money can buy so you can ensure that the customer receives the best experience possible. The company also must be innovative. And you have a successful company that violates your idea of what is possible in business.
Think, look around you, look at your computer screen, there are many companies out there that do just what I described, and you know of many of them.
Widepart that is a great postulate to operate from however if the big three do that then their market changes. They would then be competing with Mercedes, BMW, and the likes instead of Toyota, Honda etc.
Your argument 'Many companies charge more for their products and/or services than their competition' makes sense in many industries but when it comes to a car now you are talking about what kind of loan an individual can qualify for, down payment. There is a big difference between a $20/k car vs. a $40/k car.
You use computer screens to further your point, I happen to work in IT and have made these kinds of purchasing decisions for a number of companies. View Sonic's are really nice monitors but if I'm purchasing 100 PC's for customer service reps I'm not going to spend extra for them, they will get the monitor that comes with the PC package deal that stay's inside the budget. Graphic artists however will probably get a View Sonic or Mac depending.
who tried to equate his preppy brats running around the Midwest in a luxury motor home campaigning for him with our military personnel serving in a war zone? Who the hell listens to him anymore?
like all republican they believe whatever they believe no matter if it is true or not. like mit pulled his number for whatever oriface he pulled it from and laid it out for all to here. When corected he denied it and went on with his lies.
Is it any wonder we are so fucked up as a country when we have people that run for president sware the are religious, sware they are conservative, sware they are here for you but in reality they are there for themselves. They do exactly opposite of what they say.
They cannot be trusted ever!
2009 GMC Canyon 4WD Crew Cab - $25,315
Toyota Tacoma Double Cab 4x4 4.0 V6 6-Speed manual $25,695 MSRP (Can probably get it cheeper)
Its not really the yen. That's a general Japanese position, but since the whole island country is based on value added sales (importing raw materials, exporting finished goods), I can understand and don't blame them for that.
The real answer on what Japanese car companies are doing to be competitive is a bit more nefarious. From corpwatch ...
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15182
Short version ... union bust (management can have a union though), hire illegals in Japan and in repressive countries and see how much of your workforce you can hire under "temporary worker" or "dispatched" status. The temporary worker problem goes beyond autos in Japan, its all manufacturing (Cannon, Sony). Its also a huge trend in Japan, one estimate is 44% of the total workforce, mostly younger workers and women. That's contract employment, averaging 9.5 months each year, no training, benefits, retirement or unemployment. These are the terms of much of the young Japanese auto workers' employment. So, those in Michigan, don't be hating them.
Some younger Japanese are saying the decline in birthrate is linked to this. Who is going to risk having children to support when you are a "temp"? By the time you can get a salaried position, you're now too old. But the shrinking workforce is starting to make at least one auto company (Nissan) rethink. Some high profile (lack of)"employment rage" killings and a couple of lawsuits are also putting pressure there, making the public aware that its becoming a major social problem. Ironically, Japanese workers couldn't collectively unionize ... but collectively workers not breeding (enough), that's working.
The Japanese Communist Party is experiencing a huge recruitment boom with young temporary Japanese workers, and Marxist manga (Japanese comics) are becoming top sellers.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206010...
Wonder what Mitt makes of that? heh.
Sources/Background:
http://business.iafrica.com/worldnews/737919.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/...
http://business.iafrica.com/worldnews/737919.htm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?re...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206010...
Are huge in Ontario now, to the point where there are agencies that are contracted out by alot of manufacturers and service sector businesses to do all their hiring. Companies cannot even hire a "temp" worker full time if he/she is a good worker, without the Temp Agency's approval.
I've worked temp some myself here (southern US). From what I read I got far better treatment from temp. agencies here than is the case in Japan for the "non-skilled" (read not college or tech school equivalent educated) category. I am "skilled" category, however. I could get some training, and most temp. agencies offered benefits you could buy into (granted costing more than salaried - but there). But some are fast to take advantage of you when the market changes. Also, due to labor laws, we do have temporary unemployment benefits here in the US.
What's happening in the labor market in Japan is getting extreme by western standards. And they have neither the unemployment safety net of the US, nor the health care safety net of Canada. We should be aware and watching the temp. growth here.
mean no sales and the ceo"s know this thats why they are taking everything of value and moving it to foreign soils. They figure if they have to pay blacks poor whites and latinos it will be over sees not here
This is all so stupid because if the American worker cannot afford to buy the crap then they won't be able to sell it. Mittens and the rest of the Repugs can't seem to understand this. Idiots!!
Corporate government created the three major causes of the auto industry crisis: health care, the credit crunch and low efficiency cars.
Health care is an out of control cost where double digit annual price increases are more common than rare. While other industrialized nations have controlled the cost of health care, the United States has not. Why? Republican-led privatization of our healthcare system.
The second major cause of the current auto industry crisis is the crash of the credit markets. This has made getting loans to purchase cars more difficult and has resulted in a massive drop in automobile purchases. The U.S. auto market fell 14.8% through the first 10 months of 2008 and sales in October plunged 31.9%. Why? The lack of available credit for potential car buyers. And, on the other end, the industry cannot get loans to cover the dramatic loss in car sales. Why did the credit market crash? Republican-led deregulation of the investment banks.
The third cause, inefficient 20th Century automobiles rather than forward looking efficient 21st Century green cars is a shared error of government and the auto industry. Congress did not have the political will to demand energy efficiency, instead they provided a tax credit for SUV purchases, and the auto industry spent money fighting for their outdated designs that they should have been spending developing more efficient vehicles.
All three of these causes have the same source: corporate controlled government. The health insurance industry did not want more efficient single payer national health insurance. The finance industry wanted to be free to treat the stock market like a casino, liked the Fed’s easy money and did not want to be regulated. And, the auto industry did not want to be told to build more efficient cars. Corporate government is the root of the problems we face today.
And here is the ultimate used car salesman, Mitt Romney, lying directly into the camera, telling us it's OUR fault for wanting affordable healthcare, equity markets that won't send the world into another depression, and cars that don't turn the sky black.
aaaaaa
Why is Granholm cut in her reply to Romney just as she was starting to put her arguments forth?
Because David Gregory is a shill just like Brokaw is.
If you watch the succession of Republican Right Wing pundits and talking heads as they parade across tv and radio in interviews and panel discussions, you can discern the common characteristics of their training and techniques.
Lesson One.... Techniques
"You own the microphone."
As soon as you are properly identified, you begin talking and do not stop. The interview and/or panel discussion will be limited in length of time, and as long as you are talking the panelist representing the opposing view will not be heard. The same goes for the interviewer. This is not about equal time and fair play, this is war.
Talk LOUDER than the Interviewer and other Panelists.
Interrupt the other Panelists when they are talking and get the attention back on yourself.
NEVER answer the question asked UNLESS you are on Fox News or Rush Limbaugh's Show.
ALWAYS stick to your own talking points and ignore the question asked since it is more important for you to push our views than to answer questions put to you.
No matter what the other Panelist says, ALWAYS state they are wrong or lying, and if needed impugn their character.
If the other Panelist will not cede the microphone to you, CHANGE THE SUBJECT and accuse them of not answering your questions about the new subject.
If you cannot prevail on the facts in debating another Panelist it is important that viewers and listeners be confused about what the other Panelist has to say even if the viewers and listeners do not agree with your view. You can accomplish this by restating what they are saying in a manner which mischaracterizes and distorts their actual comments.
If the interview is winding down, always talk to the very end and ALWAYS GET IN THE LAST WORD.
Sound familiar?
Yup. Sounds Republican.
Lord, how I despise these people.
Talk about fortuitous timing:
http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/
Mitt,
If you were going to buy a car for $40,000. Does it really make a difference if it is $42,000 ?
Why doesn't any of them discuss executive pay, bonus, health care, vacations, perks and more bonus.??
That is probably $10,000 per car.
This has gotten into pure ideology union busting.
My question to Mitt,
How many Wall Street Banks/loan companies were union? Yeah, and the went belly up and your fine with their bailouts. Again, the auto industry is asking for a loan. Honda, Toyota etc are bankrolled by their country. If Romney wants to make cars and make those decisions. Let him invest his own money. !
For a little perspective-
The CEO of Volkswagen's TOTAL annual compensation package is EUR 5.2 million. (About $6.5 million).
The CEO of GM? $50 million, give or take.
The CEO of FORD? $36 million.
Volkswagen has unions in all its factories.
Volkswagen is suffering this downturn along with the rest of the world, but they aren't going bankrupt.
US car manufacturers have a management structure three times the size of Europe and Asia's. Extrapolate that pay difference across the industry group, and there is your $2000 per car, plus some.
$2000 does make a difference on a $40K car and the extra cost doesn't magically go down for a $15,000 car. If you don't think a 10% premium is a lot, your not in touch with your wallet.
Math alert for management haters. If Ford's CEO makes $36M and Ford sells 4M cars. That's 9 dollars a car. If the entire executive management staff worked for free, you might save 100 buck off the price of a care. I suppose you think Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Harry Reid could do better.
You fail to mention all the CEO's, the several private jets, the many golden parachutes, and all the many other perks included.
Your math alert is only [sic] "clever and witty if your thirteen!" Mr. Know-it-all.
He also doesn't say anything about the salaries for the senior vice presidents and the junior vice presidents and the CFO and the CFF and the LGD (did you ever see the building they have? these offices are occupied by a lot of people (100s? 1000s) who's salaries are figured into the $73.00 an hour figure) and the housing allowances and the per diems and the clothing allowances and all the other gifts given to the management. These are part of the $73.00 an hour as well.
What next? Toyota has no management, no planes, no buildings, and all workers probably walk to work uphill both ways.
Of course not all managment are deserving of their short commings.
Does Ford's CEO really sell the cars? Could they happen to be sold despite him?
They could put Joe the Plumber in GM's Wagoner's position and the rest of the company will make it continue to work.
Depending on Joe the Plumbers's ego.
CEO's surrounded by bubbles of yes people vs CEO's out of the bubble are two different animals.
Here is a quote from the Huff Post, Then perhaps you might understand the difference between earned disdain and proven praise when discussing Mgmt;
" damage control playbook as former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Raines. According to Raines, he can't be blamed for what happened at Fannie Mae because mortgage stuff is so, well, complicated. In fact, he can't even understand his own mortgage: "I know I can't and I've tried," Raines told a House committee last week. "To this day, I don't know what it said... It's impossible for the average person to understand" mortgage terms such as negative amortization. In other words, Who Could Have Known? "
I patrticularly hate the part, " he can't be blamed, and its something average people can't understand and he doesn't understand as well ". But is recieving the company killing CEO salaries while those that actually do the work are treated less than, much too often. Can you say layoffs vs parachutes
Name me a CEO that deserved a parachute while the company bellied up?
Don't you love the way Governor Grandholm gets shut up by a RUDE PERSON NAMED ROMNEY WHO BY THE WAY IS NOT EVEN IN OFFICE?
Because nobody taught him any manners, he continues to speak over other's people "turn" at the table. I wonder if he hogs all the food and booze too at the table?
What a fricking pig. He is the one who ran the anti gay amendment in California too, to prove to the religious right zelots he could do them favors. He is angling to run again next time. Can you imagine this monster as president?
Better not let our ranks diminish ONE BIT.
Just the food since he's Mormon
Like hairless reid.
I know that a lot of people were trying to say something like "Auto workers are being paid $72 / hour" or "Ford has to pay $70/hour" which makes it seem like the union workers are making a ton when their take home pay is really more like 23/hour, but how does that change the fact that US auto companies have to pay 70 something / hour to cover benefits of current and retired employees and pensions?
You could argue that if we had universal healthcare, that 70 would be closer to 45 or whatever, and you can argue that the auto makers agreed to this plan with the union and are now unable to live up to their end of the deal, but it seems to me that Mitt is quoting accurate information and he prefaced it correctly "labor costs plus benefits and legacy costs".
Tell me where I'm wrong: go!
Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.
Like Granholm, the numbers are wrong but you'll never hear them tell you the correct numbers. $70 versus $45 is accurate when you compare wages and benefits of cars built in america.
Other facts Granholm won't tell you. UAW health care benefits are the best in the world. Only she and congress have similar benefits. Why are we being asked to subsidize their gold plated plans? Answer me that ...
trolly McTrollypants.
Let's see -- who am I going to believe about a thoroughly debunked dollar amount describing the pay of Big 3 autoworkers?
Proven Liar, dog abuser and all around asshat Mitt Romney and you no cred 'I'll show them libruls by postin on their sites' dude? Or the many experts who have debunked the $70 per hour bullshit?
The use of 'math' helps here. You want to argue with Math? Cuz Math will kick your ass. Let me try to make it really clear. I'll paste slowly:
Your unsubstantiated claims, or Math. Tough choice, that, if you're a moron. And between the two of us, I'm not the moron here. I thought you should be told.
For sake of argument, if it's not $70. What is the correct amount? Read the media matters article, author says $70 is wrong but never suggested the correct amount. Why not?
GM is $70B in debt. What's your plan to reduce costs? Just throwing money at the problem is just a waste of money.
Your quote:
"...The [GM] handbook falsely claimed that "hourly workers" received cash compensation and benefits totaling $73.26 in 2006"
Is an example someone lying about the $70 figure. It isn't for the hourly workers, but rather the total dollar amount, per hour worked/paid, to account for all compensation, including health and pension.
That isn't at all what Mitt said.
I don't "trust" Mitt or anything, but I am pretty sure that this quote:
"labor costs plus benefits and legacy costs, our cost is $73 an hour " is an agreed factually accurate point.
Why are you so quick to freak out? You are the one who is throwing up strawman arguments. I'm not saying that union workers make 70/hr or whatever. I am saying exactly what Mitt was saying, which is exactly what I have heard everying including the unions say.
But then what's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits -- namely, health insurance and pensions -- and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages -- again, $28 per hour -- and you get the $70 figure. Voila.
Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. (Talk about gold-plated coverage!) Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that -- probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees -- in other words, the cost of benefits for other people. One of the few people to grasp this was Portfolio.com's Felix Salmon. As he noted recently, the claim that workers are getting $70 an hour in compensation is just "not true."
$70 an hour debunked
Retired or working, it doesn't matter. It is still $70 in compensation for every car. Redefining the number isn't going to make it smaller or less of a problem.
If you are saying that the way Mitt stated it was an attempt to parse words and make people think that union workers are earning $73, then ok I can see why people are upset about it, but really that isn't what he said, and lots of people have been much more "lyish" about it, basically saying that union workers are "Earning" 70 bucks / hour. Mitt's statment is much more factual, even if the goal of bringing up 70/hr is to drive home the rumor not the truth.
In the end thought, as scbooq said, it's 70/hr no matter how you spin it. If you want to talk about how GM can be profitable w/ a pension agreement that is draining lot of money, a government that won't pick up healthcare costs, and crappy products, I'm not sure how it will be possible.
However, even though I think GM should probably just go bankrupt and go away forever, I am in favor of the bailout to help stem short term economy issues. But long term, we can't just keep giving money to an industry that the US people (and really teh whole global market) don't want to support.
I wouldn't trade my jeep for honda. The quality is great and it's better for america if we buy american. I'm not for a bailout and don't want a bankruptcy either but major restructuring is necessary. Reducing lunch per diem for execs isn't the solution. The days of: job banks, gold plated health insurance, 30 year/out pensions, 6 weeks paid vacations, dozen corporate jets, and company cars for all - ARE OVER.
The UAW and execs have been in denial for 30 years. How many more lost jobs and market share will it take before reality hits home?
I wouldn't trade my 17 year old 92 Honda EX with no air and no stereo for a brand new jeep with all the bells and whistles. Why? Because American cars are cheapass POS rattle traps. And every safety feature on every American car has been hard fought. We have to CONVINCE (as in fight) these entrenched assholes to make a safer, better gas mileage car.
Fuck the Big3. But I still want them saved. I just want them to have to build better vehicles-something I can park on the street for 20 years and still drive it around legally, w/o a bunch of restore work.
Oh, c'mon-- this isn't complex. He was being deceitful, in that that number is compared to other, non-union, foreign manufactures. The workers in those countries also retire, and they, too, have health benefits. Those costs are absorbed more by their governments, but Mitt is also against having the government provide those benefits to Americans.
Filibustering, lying, REPUBLICAN cockhead extraordinare. Eat it, Mitt, you Joe Isuzu look-alike, callous, GOP-nominee-wannabe-loser.
Man, I feel like I should flesh that post out a bit, lest anyone be fuzzy on my feelings for GOPcreatures like Mitt.
take away the unions, and all those non union shops will no longer pay comparable wages...they wont because they will no longer fear the unions coming in
take a look at the meat packing industry, which successfully drove out the unions....what happened?
well, the doors were opened to illegal workers, and jobs that once allowed for a middle class life style now paid subsistance wages
mittons would love a slave labor class...that is his goal
can we tie him to the roof of a car and take him on a road trip?
He also pointed out it's not just blue collar workers -- white collar workers will also see huge pay and benefit cuts.
"Oh please Mr. Scrooge, could I please have some health care for Tiny Tim?"
"NO -- that would cost a six pence!!!!"
The oldest foreign plant in the US just turned 25 recently. After a whopping 25 years, how many retired workers do you think they have? Answer: Close to ZERO!
And the Big Three, in business here for over 100 years - about 420,000!
When those foreign owned companies have to start shelling our pensions and health care to their retirees, they will bolt the south to their homelands quicker than a hurry-up.
Alabama will become the new rust belt!
The stupid Repubs are defining themselves as the "white people only", "anti-worker" party. They are slowly destroying the Conservative Populism they set up with Ronald Reagan. Conservative Populism is a false populism that appeals to blue collar emotional issues, but is only used to get Repubs elected.
However, lately the Repubs are redefining themselves as "the don't-give-a-shit about American workers" party, which run counter to their fake populism propaganda. Repubs live in a profit motive bubble. They fail to see what many American experience. Young people see the lousy wages, minorities see themselves being taken advantage of, and the Archie Bunkers contractor types are realizing they have been sold a bill of goods.
The thieves of Wall Street, and the Idiots who run the auto companies have broken the system, with workers and future Americans left holding the bag. The whole system stinks.
Productivity is calculated using production in relation to number of COMPANY EMPLOYEES.
When the Company reduces their hourly workforce in a layoff or by attrition they turn right around and hire Contractors. With the help of Contractors production continues at previous rates.
Because Contractors are not Company employees their labor and efforts are not included in the Productivity calculations.
Although Contract employees on the shop floor may earn a subsistence or slightly above wages with no health or retirement benefits.
Under Federal laws contract workers can not take orders directly from Company Supervisors and must have a separate supervisory network. The networks include, but are not limited to, Time keepers, Supervisors, Secretaries, Engineers, and Upper management with CEOs.
Their Management CEOs etc. do have much higher salaries and benefits. Overall the cost of using Contract workers is equal to and in many cases more expensive than Company employees.
But; "It all looks good on paper."
Just when Romney was cornered, his anti-middle-class argument revealed for the hogwash it is, it's David Gregory to the rescue to hastily change the subject. The Meet the Press tradition lives on.
Mitt Romney said his sons where fighting evil and terroism by driving around the States in an RV to get him elected POTUS. What a disgrave to all the military members and families. Don't you folks ever forget that. Ever. Don't let up on this prick and make sure he never runs for office. Well unless its him or Palin then he'd be the lesser of two evils (and stupids).
Mitt is looking for another wife and Jen better watch out because she's very pretty and Mitt is in need. Mitt might be tired of dealing with the immigrant hired female help as he's a honest Mormon who knows many wives are necessary. Who knows when they kick Sarah out of office she might be looking for a suger daddy and Mitt's alway availble to the pretty ladies who what to live in style. Mitt could care less about the Auto Industry or the workers, he used the Michigan/Ohio voters like suckers and he won.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5xsOD6wEsU
Romney has never shown any reluctance about outright lying. A man who comes off as a used car salesman is attacking auto companies... Just as his father did. Romney's chances of getting votes in Michigan in 2012 aren't good.
Bailout Lovers - Time to get a grip and face reality.
You can't keep pouring money into a failed business model. Labor costs and benefits are killing our auto industry. The union sold their members a crap sandwich. No business can pay the kind of benefits they pay to non-working laid-off and retired employees. Never mind benefits and pay for current employees.
By the way, I agree that Ford manangement shouldn't be making millions but that has little effect on car prices. $12M / $4M cars sold is only 3 dollars per car.
This model worked for the past 60 years..
Why should oil and housing bubbles, along with Wall Street ripoffs be paid for by retired workers?
The whole bailout scheme is political and corrupt. Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.
Nobody forced the Big 3 management over the years to trade off wage increases for benefits, which was a way to simply defer the real costs of their business model to the future. it was a voluntary and knowing choice on their part. Today, the IOU is coming due.
And more importantly, nobody asked the UAW to determine their faulty business plan, which was based on the fraud that high margin SUV's and trucks would sustain their business indefinitely. The UAW builds the cars, not their business strategy. Remember Bob Lutz of GM? Global warming is a hoax--and hybrid cars are a fraud? Nice going Bob, you asshole. Small, fuel efficient cars are not a backwater to be ignored, they are what the public wants. Need a briefing? Call Dieter Zeitsche at Mercedes Benz or Satochi Aoki at Honda in Japan--after they thank you for all the business you gave them with your incompetence and arrogance, they will tell you that they are actually committed to build cars the public wants instead of being a slave to shareholder return and short term profits---and that's no bullshit, pal.
How many different hybrids should GM make?
GM hybrids: Malibu, Aura, Tahoe, Yukon, Vue.
If hybrids are the rage, why does the Toyota Camry outsell the Prius 4 to 1? Most people prefer larger, safer, cheaper vehicles. Not overpriced glorified golf carts.
Those high margin SUV's you mock saved the butts of every US auto worker for past several years.
www.Toyota.com/Camry The New 2009 Toyota Camry at Toyota.com -Starting under $18,500!
http://www.toyota.com/sem/prius.html PRIUS 09
Starting at $22,000*
Long wait times for delivery, new technology, higher price. That's got a lot to do with it.
Price and availability, in other words.
Price yes. Availability no. Should be plenty on the lots. Nobody is buying the Prius along with other hybrids.
Malibu sales are better. The Malibu is less expensive, bigger, better looking and gets great gas mileage.
The problem isn't the battle of the hybrids, you still have competition from non-hybrids. Also, Malibu-Hybrid has very bad availability.
2009 Malibu Hybrid, msrp starts 26,225
Their own page - "Very Limited Availability", no dealers in area
MPG - City 26 Highway 34
2009 Honda Fit, msrp starts 14,750
Their own page - Availability shows multiple local dealers
MPG - City 28 Highway 35
Safety rating & repair ratings identical. Fit has fewer bells & whistles but is a hatchback. FWIW my mechanic (independent - outspoken) prefers to repair the Fit.
I couldn't buy a Malibu even if I wanted (availability). But when I needed to replace a car earlier this year when gas prices were very high, I wanted safety, good milage city, price, repair costs and space in that order. I saw nothing domestic that could compete with the Fit. And I could walk right into a dealer and buy it in stock.
So, I lose a few fluff features, no loss on safety or repair, BETTER milage, more flexible interior storage, for about HALF the price? And my mechanic prefers it ...
How does this show GM knows what it is doing?
Mmmmitt Headroom---time to reboot your defective Neocon robot chip and upgrade to the new version, Reality 2009.
That was clever and witty if your thirteen.
Looks like you have the spelling ability of a thirteen year old. Now get lost if you haven't got anything better to do than annoy other posters with your infantile garbage.
the guy is posting garbage and lies. Guess he can't operate links or read...What happened to that great 'No Child Left Behind' bullshit anyway. The more and more I see shit like this, the more I realise was a punky POS program THAT was.
Just Say 'No' to No Child Left Behind.
Okay smart guy. Explain the lies and infantile garbage or can you only throw insults.
Snore. Haven't you something better to do?
Scbooq---Scroll up and read my comment above. As for your comment about insults, take your own advice and set a better example.
It's class warfare. Nothing new here. Fight to win!!!!
The problem is, all that's left in the collective kitty is I.O.U.s, and now every group is blaming the others for spending the money. This means government kitty and business's kitties. Those in power aren't going to blame themselves, they blame average Americans for (unfairly-- somehow) demanding what they earned from years of labour, in agreed-upon contracts.
Now the chits are due/payable and there isn't the money to cover the I.O.U.s. As my (ultra-fiscally-conservative-lawyer) Dad often says, "The guy that leaves the casino with the money wins." The rich want it to be them.
This is exactly how they think. I grew up listening to it. Play to win. It's all a game for them. They plan to win simply because they have power.
Rich and poor alike are paying for these bailouts. Why should one retired person have to pay for anothers "promised benefits"? I never promised to pay UAW agreed-upon contracts. GM, Ford and Chrysler made bad promises they had no way of keeping. Now, instead of terminating the bad deals, the solutions is to just get more money to keep paying. Smart.
The problem we are having with you and your silly numbers is that you are saying that the workers are getting $73.00 (or whatever) an hour when that is not true. Now if you want to say that the retirees are getting too much money for their pension plans then say it but don't be disingenuous and make it sound like the guy actually working is getting $70.00 + an hour. If you were smart you would talk about each benefit amount and argue about each one individually.
Employee compensation is $70+ per hour per vehicle. Slice and dice however you want to make yourself feel better. Foreign is $40+ using the same criteria.
You can argue whether this is deserved individually or not. I wish everyone could make 1M/year. Bottom line: Get your auto company house in order or go bankrupt. Don't use tax payer money to fund a unsubstainable business model.
So it's all the workforce's fault that the big 3 have an "unsustainable" business model---what a load of bull. You are just a pro business toady that refuses to acknowledge any responsibility for your management ineptitude. The real problem is management irresponsibility and myopia, for which blue collar workers pay a big price. They just build the cars, not make company policy like the Big 3's yellow belly rubber stamp boards.
And "why should one retired person have to pay for another's promised benefits?" Oh, I get it now. You are one of those selfish greedmeisters that thinks that shared sacrifice and contributing to the general welfare of society is "socialism" when all that cash rightly belongs to me, me me. You selfish bootstrappers should burn in hell.
And your $70 statistic--bullshit. You confuse opinion with fact, they are the same to you, a hallmark of the obtuse and arrogant.
Do some fact checking next time before you post the drivel you call "facts."
Fair enough, but the big 3 did agree.
Yes, all the bailouts suck. I suppose we should sit back and watch the onset of the greatest depression in 100 years. That'll serve everyone right!!!! Cut off your nose to spite your face.
And don't lose sight of the fact that Gettlefinger has said that the UAW are ready to deal.
and gregory continues to be a repub sycophant. This isn't news, it's a continuation of repub smears from the election.
Compare the amount of time Romney had to pontificate his blather and the time Granholm was allowed to rebut it. That happens at the discretion of the moderator. Gee, whoda thunk it.
Than when he was in Michigan running for Prez in the GOP primary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctO9eksTMZk&fe...
Does Mitt even realize that there are devices that record him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks3YXsA6SPM&fe...
Price yes. Availability no. Should be plenty on the lots. Nobody is buying the Prius along with other hybrids.
Malibu sales are better. The Malibu is less expensive, bigger, better looking and gets great gas mileage.
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