Gaza-West Bank Divide Continues to Grow
By Susie Madrak Sunday Jan 18, 2009 3:00pmThis is an interesting piece on how the Gaza war has actually strengthened Hamas in the Palestinian political hierarchy.
John Amato’s virtual online magazine…OK, It’s a blog!
©2009 Crooks And Liars
Login or Register to post comments.
Improper usage of WAR.
IMHO, war implies at least some small measure of military parity. This doesn't even begin to qualify as a war.
this is an eradication. over 1200 killed by the IDF, over 1.5 MILLION injured by the IDF.
source: http://www.counterpunch.org/cook01162009.html
This is nothing but a weapons proving ground for the barbaric Israeli's.
you arent speaking of the recent battles in gaza
there are 1.5 million gazans...they all werent injured
and who ever said that war was based on military parity? that is an absurd notion
Apparently, you didn't read the article and methodology employed by Jonathan Cook.
As for the definition of war, I believe, using a contrasting phrase, eradication, that I more than make the distinction. Shooting fish in a barrel isn't fishing; whats happening in Gaza is not a war.
[Please watch the abusive language. Thank you. Site Monitor]
the vast majority of fighting occured on the outskirts of gaza city
and by your standards, every citizen of israel has also been wounded, by the non stop terrorist attacks of their neighbors from the west bank, lebanon and gaza
if that is the case...then we have proportionality
The majority of terrorist attacks that occured were from the terrorist Israelis. But of course no one expect you terrorists to admit to that.
I'm a liberal who is also a Soldier. I've served in Iraq. I really dislike Fox news, and I really dislike al jazeera, for the same reason. They both push BS, ultra-conservative, propaganda.
Most muslims in the middle east are like the christian super conservatives you'd find over here. They love guns (EVERY family owns at least one AK), they're super religious/intolerant of other religions (the punishment for a muslim who converts to christianity or judaeism is death in more than one middle eastern state), and they're way behind when it comes to women's rights and racist attitudes. This is FACT. I've been there. Women eat last, always. There are many things they are not allowed to do. And I just heard a story on NPR the other day about how black Iraqis are treated (I didn't meet any while I was over there, so I can't confirm) - it wasn't good.
Anyway, Al Jazeera is their fox news. Extreme anti-Jewish, anti-US, islamist conservative propaganda. It's the same channel that shows Soldiers getting their heads cut off with kitchen knives and glorified the WTC attacks, and we're showing that BS on crooks and liars now? What the HELL?!?
Say what you want about the Israel/Palestine conflict - all I know is Hamas is literally dedicated to the destruction of Israel and all the Jews inside it. Israel is NOT dedicated to the destruction of Palestine and the murder of all the palestinians. That puts them a little bit higher on the morality scale to me. Also, Israel doesn't use human shields. Hamas does. Just google Hamas human shields to hear Palestinian leaders TALK about using human shields so they can win sympathy from the outside world. They literally say that is what they're doing. And you're denouncing israel. In my view, if somebody grabs a hostage and starts killing people, and you shoot back and kill them and their hostage, it's a shame, but it's not your fault. The guy that took the human shield was the one who killed that hostage. He put you in the position of having to shoot back. That's what Israel is facing right now. They're not the bad guys in this situation. That's Hamas. Stop taking the wrong side.
All the anti-semetic talk on this website lately and I feel like I wandered into a neo-nazi convention. Knock it off and get back to the old Crooks and Liars. I loved finding daily show and olbermann clips, and hearing intelligent talk about issues I cared about. I can't side with you on this topic.
muslims are the same then? Is that like all whites are crooked fraudulent politicians? You lump everyone into one group and you are racist. Questioning a state's atrocities against an unarmed population does not bring race into the picture.
...saying "most muslims in the middle east are like the christian super-conservatives you'd find over here" is saying all muslims are the same? I'm not discussing stereotypes, I'm talking about the level of intolerance and strict adherence to religion that you would find among the majority of the population of most of the countries in the middle east. I'm clearly not lumping everyone into one group. Also, islam is a religion, not a race. And I have no problem with the religion whatsoever.
Also, your support of Hamas really scares me. Look at what they believe in. Look at how they encourage the use of human shields. Listen to their leaders talk about driving all jews into the sea. You might as well be supporting Hezbollah, Jaish al Mahdi, or Al Queada.
They are Palestinians and they want their country back. The Israelis have occupied their country for decades. What are they supposed to do? They have been talking to Israel for decades. It gets them nowhere. I don't justify the violence. I'm just a realists. To tell you the truth; I am surprised that the Palestinians have been as restrained as they are. If somebody invaded the United States it would be a straight up fight to the death. The Palestinians are a very patient people.
The American Revolutionary War.
Guerilla warfare was our specialty. We were not allowed to have an army.
Until we were.
From Wiki:
At the outset of the war, the Americans lacked a professional army and navy. Each state provided for its own defenses through the use of local militia. Militiamen were lightly armed, slightly trained, and usually did not have uniforms. Their units served for only a few weeks or months at a time, were reluctant to go very far from home, and were thus generally unavailable for extended operations. Militia lacked the training and discipline of regular soldiers but were more numerous and could overwhelm regular troops as at the battles of Concord, Bennington and Saratoga, and the siege of Boston. Both sides used partisan warfare but the Americans were particularly effective at suppressing Loyalist activity when British regulars were not in the area.[2]
What do you do when somebody invades you country? You drive them out. It's really that simple.
...a suicide bomber blowing up a bus full of israeli civilians guerrilla warfare, and I wouldn't call it "being patient." I'd call it terrorism. You have terrorist cells with the support of the palestinian government who expressly target civilians, with the goal of killing as many of them as possible. Israel is trying to kill Hamas, and Hamas is using human shields (again, google video it to hear Palestinian leaders talk about the plan) in order to a. protect their leadership, and if that fails b. kill their own civilians to garner world sympathy and turn the international community against israel.
Talking peacefully with Israel led to self governance, the increase of palestinian territory (from 60 percent of what they own now to all of what they own now), and the unilateral disengagement of the palestinian territory by Israel - positive gains for palestinians.
Every time Hamas tries a violent solution, on the other hand, it hurts palestinians. They try suicide attacks, Israel comes up with a non violent solution of putting up a wall and restricting traffic between israel and palestine, which has been proven to drastically reduce the risk of suicide bombings in their country. The unfortunate side effect is that Palestinians can't get supplies they need because they can't trade with israel. But this is Hamas' fault - Israel has to protect its own.
When Hamas tries rocketing Israel, it brings strikes against their leadership. Unfortunately, Hamas takes refuge amongst its civilians, and uses them as shields, which brings suffering to the Palestinian people. But what else is Israel supposed to do? Stand by and continue to be rocketed? (I can tell you from personal experience, being rocketed sucks.)
Endorsing a group like Hamas, which deliberately strikes civilian targets for the sole purpose of killing as many civilians as possible, isn't endorsing freedom fighters. It's endorsing terrorism.
I would hope that if somebody invaded america tomorrow, we would fight back at their leadership, instead of trying to blow their kids up on the way to school.
Or, to get totally crazy, we could cop a page from Gandhi's play book - seemed like it worked out okay for them.
"I would hope that if somebody invaded america tomorrow, we would fight back at their leadership, instead of trying to blow their kids up on the way to school." You took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States of America from ALL enemies both foriegn and domestic. The bush administration has been continually attacking and destroying that document since their firsat day in office. What have you done about that???? I thought so. So don't try and tell this veteran that YOU'D fight back!!!!!!!!!!
Or, to get totally crazy, we could cop a page from Gandhi's play book - seemed like it worked out okay for them.
You bring up Gandhi and Muslims. Wow. Fair, I guess you were stationed in Iraq not Afghanistan and they don't give you guys any cultural background before posting anyway. I bet that changes soon since one of the mission goals is winning hearts and minds.
On Gandhi and Muslims, remember Pakistan, India and Kashmir? Punjab? Sikhs? The looting of Karachi? Go ask a Sikh politician of the WW2 era. I'm floored, you really stepped in a hornet's nest here.
Or here, read this one.
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082003/king_and_g...
Man, that was like asking an American why they weren't asking Israel to follow General Custer's play book to solve the native Palestinian problem. It worked great! Oh wait ...
Good luck finding REAL examples of Hamas using "human shields". But it's a pretty easy thing to find factual well documented cases of the Israeli military rounding up Palistinians and using them as "human shields". And good luck too on finding an actaul case of Hamas leaders publiclly calling to "drive all jews into the sea". If the lies of Israel WERE true you'd be right but basing opinions on lies never works well.
and definitely dont speak on the rules of war
So I can toss my middle eastern documents link out again.
Yale Law School, Avalon Project, Middle East Documents
It's in chronological order. Hamas charter is 1988. But don't miss the Balfour Declaration and all those UN resolutions. They only have security council ones. The General Assembly one that to this day gives all sides fits is
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194
I don't see the anti-Israeli-hard-liner comments on this site as being any different from the anger directed at the US government due to our boneheaded pursuit of the Iraq war and its eventual side-effects.
Nobody is saying that Hamas are the good guys any more than they were saying Saddam was a stand-up guy--they're not. For the most part they're self-serving fundie psychos who are, indeed, trying to goad Israel into killing innocent people to bolster their position, and they don't care much for innocents on either side.
The point is that Israel is making a huge moral mistake playing into that hand--and in the end, making the problem WORSE--and that by supplying them with weapons and cash, the US isn't exactly helping matters. Hell, I even agree with some of the conspiracy theorists on here wondering if the US weren't covertly supporting Hamas, too--after all, the neocons' shot at war with Iran got shot down, so this would be a plan B for getting it going.
Nobody is saying that all Israelis are bad (ok, nobody that I'm paying attention to); the comments have more to do with disproportionate and unacceptable application of military force rather than diplomacy. Same as with Iraq.
It's not who's right and who's wrong--the hard liners in BOTH nations have a long history of wrong--its how many innocent people get hurt in the middle.
Also keep in mind that when you bolster hard-liners, you make things worse overall--Iran was improving from a secular and civil rights perspective until we went and saber rattled the hard liners into a stronger position of power.
most, not all, but most, supported the war in afghanistan
did the afghanees attack us? no
but they did harbor the terrorists that did
and many civilians were killed during the war on al quiada
however, with iraq, we were lied to and many (not all) were led to believe that sadaam was not only directly connected to 9/11...but was directly connected to world wide terrorism, and had reconstituted his weapons program and was ready to strike the united states....all lies, he was never a threat
on the other hand, hamas is a threat to israel
Are you kidding?
You said the samething about FATAH and Arafat years ago.
Hard Liners in Israel and their Imperial Fantasies are the only threat to the region:
This is president Carter on "The Greatest Israel":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGt6Ec_GXgE
Of course you will call him anti- Jew.
so does alan dershowitz
jimmy carter is a terrible disapointment to me
Why because he is the ONLY US president critic of ISRAEL terrible and foolish policies?
HE IS A MAN OF PEACE AND ONE OF MY HEROES!
ask the East Timorese about Carter and his National Security Advisor, Zbigniew.
I am talking about Israel and the ZIONISTS and their dream of conquer the middle east.
He is one of the few who is CRITIC of them.
Both Clinton and Carter made some mistakes but they admitted them LATER ON.
even the hardest of hard line "zionists" does not wish to "conquer" the entirety of the middle east
unless you only consider israel to be the middle east
you must have some really weird maps at home
because it was his short sighted policies that caused the rise of extremeist islam
he may be your hero, but dershowitz believe, and i concur, that there will be a special place in hell for that man
Can you tell me its ZIP CODE.
So we can send Cheney there!
And also some ZIONIST crooks WHO believe they are the chosen by God to get rid of palestinians.
and please dont tell me that when you use the term "zionist" you dont really mean "jew"
and cheney has a seperate place reserved for him in hell
In fact ORTHODOX jews are not ZIONISTS.
They don't need a "Promised Land" to live since They can live every where. Like all other Believers do.
The problem with the ZIONISTS is that the land they believe is theirs is occupied by other countries like Egyt , Jordan , Syria and Palestine.
"A land from the NILES to the Euphrates"
That's what zionist hard liners realy want.
THAT'S WHY ZIONISM SUCKS
you believe Hamas, an organization whose charter calls for the elimination of Israel and it's replacement by an Islamic state is equally wrong. That must be why Hamas sucks. No?
I'd like to pose a question to you in all seriousness.
If you were living in the Gazan strip or the West Bank with no recognized statehood and no legal army, and your everyday life was controlled by checkpoints for food, work,etc...
What would you think from that vantage point? What would be your plan in the face of constant limbo and let's also call a spade a spade, humiliation?
Just wondering.
I suppose it would depend on just how badly Israeli actions had hurt me or my family. I might well be a member of Hamas under certain conditions. That wasn't my point however, which is that criticizing Israel because it is a Jewish state(albeit with numerous religious minorities)is hypocritical if the aim is to replace it with an Islamic state.
They can live anywhere except...
In 50% of europe in WW2.
ANYWHERE in the middle east except for Israel. There is a reason that christian and jewish populations in literally every middle eastern country (except israel) are ridiculously low. Because middle eastern governments, and most middle eastern muslims, are incredibly intolerant of non muslim religions. (see http://www.christiansofiraq.com/ for news articles and a quick history of the assyrian people)
The fact is, Jews in the middle east would have come to a slow extinction if they didn't have a place of their own.
I'm sure Jimmy Carter will go down in history as one of the very few in these times who spoke truth to power.
He is positively heroic.
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN:
The Ludicrous Attacks on Jimmy Carter's Book http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein122820...
for the intelligent reply. Still seems like a few people on this site (concerned canuck) ARE saying that Hamas is good and that Israelis are bad.
I can see your point that Israel is playing into their hand by attacking them, but what choice do they really have? Keep standing by while your people continue to get rocketed? Respond with a small level of force, so that casualties on both sides are more similar? Or take the steps they need to to keep their own people safe?
If sitemonitor will permit me to say the the following just this once, I'd really appreciate it.
GMoney, do you have your head up your ass? Next time you come on here to debate with adults, read up on the conflict instead of making a complete fool of yourself.
Intelligent debating skills.
Sitemonitor, don't worry. I'm not going to come down to Loom's level.
I actually have been to the middle east. I've seen it with my own eyes, I can speak some extremely basic arabic, and I guarantee I know more about most middle east issues, the mindset of insurgent groups in the region, and whatever else I happen to be talking about at the time, than you.
So next time, come up with a reply, or you just come off like Bill O'Reilly.
Pride goeth before a fall.
All insurgent groups are alike? Middle east is a big place. So, you have done extensive talks with Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Afghans, Iraqi's, Iranians, Saudi's, Kuwaiti's, Jordanians and Pakistani's? You've spoken with neighbors about the area? Turks, Chinese, Indians (sihk, buddist, hindu as well as the muslim)?
You speak not only Arabic, but Farsi, Punjabi? You get fluent translators who can explain cultural bias when you know only a few words?
I was taught to cuss in Arabic by a Lebanese graduate student friend. That did not make qualified to know much. It took me years of questions and reading to start to grasp the history there. Its pretty clear from your prior bringing up of Gandhi to solve an islamic refugee issue (he created a situation with 5 MILLION islamic refugees, many died in that diaspora) ... that you should make use of a library.
Oh this tired meme. You mean you believed Rumsfeld? He is not a soldier's soldier. I got Al Jazeera translated a bit back when it was not in English. I wanted to know. As the only career civvie in my family I get to think for myself, not think what I'm told. Ha, its nothing like what Rumsfeld said. In the words of it's own creator "the only one happy with Al Jazeera is Sharon". It's far from anti-western or jewish. It is Arabic slanted in it's views, but well it's an Arab channel. You really need to check out more Arab media. If you think Al Jazeera is bad, that's like thinking watching a little necking in movie rated R is hard core porn.
I think you mean Al Manar. Now that's an unabashed islamist propaganda mouthpiece. It's quite open about it. They call the Quassams "Resistance Rockets". Yeah really. They have some English on the web now as well. Google for link. Al Manar, not Al Jazeera. Heard interesting reports about the Syrian media too. Running still pictures of war dead on loop just to incite. That the Arab-based media you mean?
Besides, you don't watch or refer to foreign media because you like them, or you agree with them, or you agree with their views. You watch foreign media to know what in the bleep they're thinking. So, this link from Al Jazeera is perfect. Its an Arab outlet covering what in the bleep are Palestinians thinking. I'd ask a guy from South Carolina who I like and almost always agree with, but, he wouldn't know. So, I guess I'll go look where the answers are.
the fox news of the middle east. So yes, I believe it's bad. And just because Al Manar is worse doesn't mean that Al Jazeera isn't propaganda.
I'd complain if you put fox news on to talk about what somebody from south carolina was thinking, because fox news is so slanted that you can't trust it.
The only exception to this rule is when crooks and liars features billO clips, because I like to make fun of him.
All media has bias. Some are flagrant and could care less, some are flagrant but want to be taken seriously, some really do try but articles and events are always viewed through the prism of the viewer, so there is still bias.
Fox has a high bias, both cultural and intentional pandering. Al Manar has an astronomical bias, its pure unadulterated propaganda most of the time. Al Jazeera seems to actually try. One of the articles I had a friend translate was a fairly balanced look at women's right in Morocco, and the problems and struggle for better. Al Jazeera shows cultural bias, but not nearly like Fox is within the spectrum of media. Generally, when I have friends from the middle east that can give me better background on what Al Jazeera prints, they say the average person in the area feels more upset than what Al Jazeera shows. They seem to tone it down to a more westernified view. Considering most of their reporters are western educated and speak English as well as view western media regularly - that makes sense. They also tell me that most Arabic language outlets are very propagandized and inflammatory in tone. So, Al Jazeera does stand out in the region and stakes it's reputation on trying for an even approach. It wants to be centrist in tone. Note, I say trying, not succeeding.
Understanding the specific bias of any foreign outlet is important when viewing its stories. Al Jazeera is *more* pro-western and centrist than any other Arabic outlet. That's important to know. Like FOX is slanted (hard) right. Ha'aretz is slanted (equally hard) eft. Etc.
No media is trustworthy. But, the only people I know who say Al Jazeera is slanted as hard anti-western as FOX is slanted pro-right are not informed on Arab media. I know you've been subject to propagana (ours, its needed in a soldier) .. but to go civvie you have to deprogram. If you want a critical balanced look at Hamas, Al Jazeera is a great source. If you want Hamas cheerleader's look, Al Manar is there. You want a Hamas critical look try Al Arabiya. Its not about who you trust, its about where they are coming from.
You can believe anything you want. The difference between faith and science is that faith doesn't require proof.
So, you can believe anything you want about Al-Jazeera. Your opinion matters very little at this point. Any asshat can open his/her mouth and speak.
There are two major subscription TV services in Israel. One is a cable provider, the other is a satellite provider. Guess what? They both carry Al-Jazeera.
So that invalidates your entire anti-Semitic diatribe.
Now, there are two Al-Jazeera news channels, one in English, the other in Arabic.
If your claim is that the Arabic Al-Jazeera is anti-Semitic, how do you know that, if you don't speak Arabic?
If your claim is aimed at Al-Jazeera News in English, then you need to cite some specific examples.
I doubt you served in Iraq, by the way. I think you're hitching a ride on the fake patriotism song and dance like a concern troll, just to squelch reports from Al-Jazeera.
Fact is, you're most likely some Israel firster hack. One can see right through your anti-Semitic this and anti-Semitic that rant.
Get over yourself and move on.
PS: As someone who grew up in Israel, I saw first hand how the Israel is hell bent on destroying the Palestinians. But, if you're Jewish you probably already know that and you're just posturing.
What history books do you read?
and improper use of violence for political purposes and that is the mantra of the Israeli Nationalists.
I hope all of its supporters understand this.
It is acting because it has U.S. backing.
Not because it is correct.
not because it is correct
walah...stalemate
Hamas is acting like it's trying to protect the Palestinians, which is what a democratically elected government is supposed to do.
when it spends aid money on weaponry and not on food and other services?
btw, you and guys like galloway cannot have it both ways
if hamas is the representative of the gazans, and they attack israel...that is a declaration of war
so what occured in gaza, by all international standards...was war
funny how those rocketeers are all masked and fire from open areas that are well within range of Israeli snipers and other means of retaliation.
that is, if you really wanted to prevent the measly rocket attacks.
it wouldn't be the first time that Israeli's have cloaked themselves as Arabs/Palestinians.
No no, they had t-shirts saying "we are Hamas" on them!
Are you talking about this Galloway? Thanks for mentioning him. You just jogged my memory about this guy. He's brilliant. I remembered his eloquent arguments against the rotten, stinking war on Iraq so I was curious to see what he had to say about this current nightmare in Gaza. I just googled him and found this.
He compares the uprising of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto to the situation of the Palestian people. He also calls Mubarek out as equally responsible as the Iraelis for the massacre. Very thought-provoking. Thanks tubesox!
George Galloway | Stop Gaza Massacre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFzPm2GWtLA&fe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j09Fj0yOM-E
ya....like any of his opinions have merit after that appearance
the man also said that chavez was now the leader of all the arabs
funny...i thought hugo was in venezuela
this man is truly disturbed
Let see one of his finest speech on GAZA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpvrOJQ0J0&eu...
He is the Man!
he is an angry disturbed man and is seen by most brits as an absolute joke
i dont care to watch the ravings of a mad man
The Radical ZIONIST are the real JOKE.
They believe they can get "the Greatest Israel"
They will never have peace if DON'T accept UN
RESOLUTONS and a FREE PALESTINE with EAST JERUSALEM as Capital.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de4u3JhruPw&fe...
funny that he never talks about his conversion to islam anywhere, and makes people believe that he is either an agnostic or an athiest
would an athiest speak about the prophets or mohamed?
he is a disturbed man
and why do the arabs want east jerusalem as their capital, when it never was?
I travel frequently throughout Europe and did live in London a few years back and I really don't think you are correct that most Brits think he is an absolute joke. I would never dare to speak for what an entire group of people think but I will venture that you are a bit out there on this statement.
I think it's strange that you would assume to speak for so many millions of people. How would you know what "most Brits" think? That puts you on par with an angry disturbed man, imho.
I haven't watched the link you provided yet but George Galloway has impressed me many a time over the years and I'll have to get back to ya if this video you provided ruins him for me forever. I kinda doubt it.
can't afford to keep giving Israel all these weapons and fuel, you'll see a different story. And that day is coming fast.
I wouldn't be surprised to see that the US has also funded and armed Hamas through back channels and third parties.
Anyone seen Oliver North lately?
either. And I wouldn't put it past Israeli apologists on here to actually be part of that propaganda. Especially the posters you see nowhere except Israel posts.
Have you seen this video of a rabid Israeli settler?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSAvaYY-y7Q
I would swear he sounds like someone who frequents the Israeli conflict posts.
couldnt you find anything more persuasive?
i can
like the settlers from chevron...those people are a bit nuts
i comment on items that interest me...which included the snl skits
this interests me
especially the comments of the posters, who are deep into revisionist history
i am amazed, that after having a president who for 8 years did nothing but redefine both reality and history, those on the left would engage in the same thing
and israel doesnt get most of its oil from the usa anyway
israel purchases the weapons systems it uses
most times, it improves upon them...as it did with the bradley troop carrier
israel's improvements were then used by the united states....and saved lives
but sure...aid to israel should be cut off...as should aid to egypt, the palestinians and every other foreign government
Not much of a surprise given what the US has managed to do over the span of 5 years in Iraq, and that was starting with a political party drastically less popular than Hamas. I don't qualify as either a Zionist or Hamas fan, but the level of willful stupidity at work here is incredible.
Well, that and pure, unadulterated, self-serving malice: Hamas lobs rockets at innocent people, strengthening the Israli hard-liners position and provoking them to attack with disproportionate, poorly-aimed military force, which in turn kills scores of innocents and strengthens Hamas' position. Serves the interests of the power-seeking well, tragic for the large number of innocents caught in the crossfire. It's also so simple it'd work as the plot for a kids' TV show explaining what's wrong with humanity.
Then there are raw humanitarian stories like the Palestinian doctor who worked in Israel and did reporting for an Israeli news show who called in to a live broadcast begging for help after three of his daughters were killed by shell that hit his house:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTR...
and the idf, pretty much knowing where he was (as they monitor all broadcasts) should have contacted him and informed him to leave his premises
From my post above. They got the Israeli TV footage and aired it. I had already seen it there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UxJWdCwOpc&fe...
Very sad.
You want more killing?
Go for it.
and to join with the pa for real negotiations
i want hamas to remove from its charter the calling for the destruction of israel
i want all of islam to state that terrorism in any form is against their religion and to aknowledge israel's right to exist
i would like hamas to stop producing children's programing that teaches kids to hate
i would like the lion to lie down with the lamb and there to be peace on earth and good will to all men
that is what i want
have been fucked over since Day 1.
Anyone who does not see this is willfully blind.
just curious
You talk as though Hamas and Islam are the root of all humanity problems, give your head a shake.
I could have sworn you have stated in previous posts, that the Palestinian Authority was full of frauds and crooks, yet you want the Palestinians to go through them? That's just stupid. Shouldn't that be up to the Palestinians, kinda like you can vote for who you want? Or they don't have that option?
Israel has no more right to exist than any other country and that's a fool's argument in the same vain as anyone that questions Israel is anti-semitic. An old spin of Bullshite.
How does Hamas produce children's programming teaching hate, when there is no power in Gaza? Who would watch it? You sir are an Israeli tool. About as useful as STD's.
cuz amazingly, that was coming from gaza....where they have no power...yet street lights and lights from apartment buildings were still on
if israel does not have the right to exist...then neither does palestine
so why are you arguing with me
i dont think canada has the right to exist
i think you should give it back to the native americans you stole it from....when are you moving out?
has a right to exist, and you can't use that as an excuse to slaughter people. You speak out of both ends, so I think your ends are getting the data confused. You spin and spin, and make excuse after excuse for murdering people. Charlie Manson would be proud of you.
you said
"Israel has no more right to exist than any other country"
you are right...they dont
and neither does canada...which pushed out its own native population to build its cities
when are you moving out?
How can I put this in a way that really hits home. I have to borrow from the best. "You have such a stunningly superficial knowledge of what went on that it's almost embarrassing to" read what you post
very easy to cast stones
but you seem to feel that you are the expert...why dont you teach me
but i will tell you this...if you do not include the fact that there has never been an actual state or country of palestine, and that the region was given that name by the romans who chose to shame the jews that they expelled...then it is you, not i who has the stunningly, superficial knowledge of what occured
You're alright in my book. Just throwing that out there.
you and me against the world
Heck why not go back and discuss Jesus Christ lol. I'll start with the British Mandate of Palestine.
the arabs did not accept the british mandate
remember the war of 1948?
but to deny any history prior to the british mandate, is to be the one who is superficial here
but prior to the british mandate, did an independent country called palestine ever exist?
the Israelis are unlikely to concur that they don't have a right to exist. And just to point out the complete vacuity of your assertion that would mean the Palestinians wouldn't have a right to a state either.
Palestine is not.
So clearly parity is out the window.
Israel declares success. They killed 1400 Palestinians (mostly civilians) while only losing 14 themselves (all soldiers), thus satisfying the formula "kill 100 for every one" upgraded from the old Jadaic measure of "10 eyes for an eye, 10 teeth for a tooth." (Recall that Carpenter from Nazareth suggesting only one eye for an eye, only one tooth for a tooth?)
Hamas declares success. Despite heavy civilian losses, Hamas is still standing and more popular than before, both in Palestine and abroad.
In the meantime Qatar and Mauritania have both broken off relations with Israel.
an eye for an eye, comes from the old testament...not sure where you get your version from
it is about monetary compensation...anyone who takes it literally is insane
where are you getting the numbers about the casualties being "mostly civilian"?
from the recent numbers i have seen, the gazans are still saying half..and are now counting men above the age of 50 as being civilians
they have a very strange way of deciding who is and who isnt hamas
especially since hamas leaders are into their 70s and they use children as young as 13 as fighters...and as young as 9 or 10 as lookouts
[DELETED. ABUSIVE. TONE IT DOWN NOW, PLEASE. Site Monitor]
That's Israel for ya - just read the Israeli press, they're demanding 10 for one, then upping it to 100 for one.
Yes .. the Zionists ARE insane.
And YOU said it .. I didn't have to.
but based on their population vs the overall arab population
if you can show me one israeli newspaper that has used the concept of "eye for an eye" i would appreciate it
you misquoted from the bible
you also misunderstand what the concept is saying
it is speaing about financial compensation
btw, the koran also misunderstands this concept
which is why in muslim countries they cut off the arms of someone who steals
The term that one term used was shoah. Not eye for eye, no. It was Vilnai, well documented. Granted, it did cause some discomfort in some circles after he said it.
Some middle east experts and at least two Egyptian politicians are now saying that Egypt is running the risk of internal destabilization. They have poverty and demographics issues which previously align to the muslim brotherhood support. So, this is spark to already dry timber.
Jordan is clearly going full court press with diplomacy (not that it has any weight) abroad, while at home they are allowing the muslim brotherhood to organize demonstrations and scholars to study if they have the reasons for war. This seems designed to allow enough internal pressure to vent so they don't boil over before the diplomacy can work.
Saudi Arabia is not not just in a cold war with Iran, but now in a position of being considered irrelevant in the rest of Arab world. There seems to be a real tiff going between them and Qatar. Saudi's are helping diplomatically, but have their own muslim brotherhood problem, and their open denouncements of Hamas all through the era of bloody ground invasion and rising body counts of women and children puts them in a hot seat.
Qatar is interesting. So, they broke (or froze depending on who you ask) ties with Israel. That can be easily undone if Israel gives anything post-war and they'll look like good guys and score western points for being the first to reestablish ties. That will also play well at home as he'll look like he has legitimacy for only dealing with Israel when it "plays nicely". Shrewd. But, far more interesting is that he pledged rebuilding money for Gaza ahead of the Kuwait commitment, and made a point that his funds go "directly to Gaza". By-passing the PA. This guy seems to be no fool politically. So, I find his political calculus interesting to watch.
the "eye for an eye" thing derives from the Code of Hammnurabi and predates Judaism by a considerable number of years. It actually means that the punishment should be proportional to the crime. Not a Jesus thing. He was more of a turn the other cheek kind of guy.
Get strengthened whenever the previous organization recognizes Israel and becomes moderate. That's why Hamas was elected over Fatah in the first place. For the Palestinians, it's a musical chairs game which has no bearing on Israel's actions. That's why they started firing rockets again as soon as Israel declared a cease-fire.
Wrong.
A. You don't know what you're talking about.
B. You're lying on purpose.
Pick one!
Hamas got strengthened by Israel. Israel armed it and backed to contain Fatah. Israel also uses the divide and conquer tactic among Palestinians.
And for your information, Fatah's negotiations with Israel went nowhere. Israel wouldn't give them anything. In fact, in 1993, when Arafat was about to sign the agreement with Israel, Israel switched the papers and maps at the last minute in hopes of tricking Arafat into signing and giving up more land. I was there. I should know because I was helping with the translations for Israeli radio.
Israel continued to expand and build colonies in the West Bank while thumbing its nose at Arafat and the PA.
Your lie about the rocket firing makes you look like a total fool. C&L posted an article addressing that specific issue just a few days ago. Look it up and see what a joke you are.
Is Israel's Gaza War a New War Crime?
More at link.
egypt? figures
If your driveway isn't blocked and is wide open, but every time you try to go out it, people shoot at you, is that an open driveway?
that is why the tunnels were created
egypt refused to open its border to any incoming or outgoing traffic during the entire ordeal
aid came in through the israeli border
there is no evidence that people were shot trying to get through the egyptian border
in fact, towards the end, egypt finally let in foreign journalists...all entered unmolested
beg the question of why Hamas fires rockets at the checkpoints when they are opened to allow through humanitarian aid. Like on Dec 26 of last year.
Do you have a reliable source to prove that point. Israeli or Jewish newspapers don't count.
you'll find most of the major news organizations covered it. The Christian who were crossing into Israel for Christmas did not appreciate the experience. I do have a question for you however. If I'm not to believe anything that might be printed in an Israeli or Jewish newspaper why should I believe anything deriving from Palestinian sources?
Wow. Those Christians crossing into Israel did not appreciate it, huh? That convenient reference. The Christians caught in the Israeli/Palestinian crossfire. Those poor saps.
What an obvious tool you are.
How bout those Christians? What about Bethlehem?
Beyond Bethelem, the supposed birthplace of Christianity, which no one gives a damn about; what is your informed and rational take on the situation of the Christians in the middle east?
Does it really matter if they are Christians in Lebanon, Iraq, Israel or Palestine?
Please, do tell.
I love to point this out because the hypocrisy is so thick you need a shovel. And it really points to the U.S. who supposedly give such a ginormous shit when it comes to Christianity.
What a serious joke.
Rockets were not fired "at the checkpoints", but rockets were fired on December 26th.
Xinhua: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200612/22/e...
They are careful, the article does not prove it was Hamas, just "miltants", and Islamic Jihad not Hamas was taking credit for most in the days before.
Xinhua: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/21/...
I took the challenge for fun, since I remembered reading them earlier.
But, Israeli or Jewish newspapers should count. Their slant (depending on which paper) should be noted of the article has commentary, but I think they'd know if a rocket fell. That's silly.
However, the question should be Why did other militant groups fire rockets at Ashkelon, Sderot and some feilds on the 26th despite the checkpoint being opened. Thats a good, and more accurate question. I think the Ashkelon rocket gave the IDF a bit of a jolt (this from putting together info from several stories).
Also, another question, why was the border opened? Was it to let things in? Enough aid so they could not be called by the UN for the next weeks when none would come? What was let out? Who or what did they want to allow out before the border got sealed and the bombing started. Those are great military and political strategy questions.
lol wow. You're a clown indeed.
Egypt, under pressure from Israel and the U.S. kept the border closed. If Egypt opened the border crossing, the U.S. would stop funneling foreign aid to the corrupt Mubarak.
We discussed this a few days ago. I'm starting to think you have a mental disability.
You're as naive about Palestine as Bush was about Iraq. Neither of those countries wants peace and cooperation. If they did, they would elect moderates. All they want is the opportunity to start shit with the country next door to them. That was the case with Saddam as much as the Ayatollah; and it'll be the case with Maliki as much as it was with Osama. The only countries toning down their rhetoric are those which finally understand that being a part of globalization means better returns for them than pulling their militant mafia crap on innocent bystanders.
maybe the reason this type of stuff is going on over there, is that richer nations are backing these places with weapons and money to buy more weapons, rathing than actually helping them?
thing you've said tonight. That is exactly what is going on.
In the runup to World War One the British promised the Zionists a homeland in Palestine were they to support the Brits against the Germans, which International Jewry did, by financial backing and by scientific contributions to British armaments.
The British ALSO promised the Arabs that if they were to rise up against the Ottoman Turks, THEY would be granted a Pan-Arab Nation if the Allies triumphed over the Axis powers.
When World War One ended, the British double-crossed the Arabs.
Jews and Arabs in Palestine had lived together for generations, then the Zionists were granted rights of settlement by the British.
And there's been bloodshed ever since.
Tie two cats tails together. Throw them over a clothesline. Sit back and watch them claw each other to shreds. Some fun.
if you really have read history as you state, you would know that to not be true
and the brits did not screw the arabs...transjordan was created...which included all of the west bank...that is why it was called transjordan...the palestinian state
great.
Life is a struggle from beginning to end. Do you really think the only people in the world who deserve recognition for suffering are the Jewish population? Really? They had it the worst over everybody else, eh?
Please.
see where he said that at all. There have been many examples of genocide in modern times from Rwanda to the Balkans but the Jews have endured persecution probably longer than any other religion and no attempted genocide was more precisely engineered and executed than the Holocuast. Even the Armenians who suffered so greatly at the hands of the Turks were not worked to death as slave labor nor marched into gas chambers.
Seriously.
I can only assume that you are Jewish. Correct? If not, then even worse.
My mother is Jewish and her entire family sat Shiva for her when she married my father who is a very rational soul who happened to be raised in a Protestant faith. They met as professors.
It's simply painful to think that you are this sick in your mind and heart.
All people are human beings. That is the end of the story.
If you do not believe it to be true that we are all infallible and therefore subject to being paranoid and power drunk or paranoid and powerless than you, sir, are a very sad human being.
No group has the monopoly on persecution. Especially one who has survived only to lord over a group who originally did nothing to deserve so.
You sicken me.
Shut the fuck up already. Go recite your empty superficial talking points somewhere else. Your posts are an insult to read.
"They would elect moderate.....".
Was the U.S. under an occupation, being given the run around by the occupier when your fellow assholes voted for Bush?
What's that? No? Then shut up.
Read up on the American "Revolutionary" War. You'll get a clue soon enough.
The Palestinians, and especially Hamas, are being played by Iran.
Americans are always assuming that it's good guys vs. bad guys, and trying to find out, and arguing which is which. Israelis and Palestinians are all acting badly. There ain't no good guys.
For Hamas and Hezbolla to lob missiles into Israeli cities is akin to batting at a wasp nest. Expect to get stung. The kidnapping of 2 soldiers in 2006 led to the destruction of southern Lebanaon and cost that country a season of tourism revenue. Hamas should have, and certainly did know that the Israelis would "overreact." They counted on it, deliberately provoked it. Then they used Palestinian civilians as human shields, so they can whine about civilian casualties.
They are trying to shame the Arabic states into coming to the rescue. That just ain't gonna happen. Last time the Arabs attacked Israel, all of Nasser's air and armor was gone in a matter of hours. Now Israel has nukes, and nobody is going to mess with them.
That includes Iran; no way are they going to try to "wipe Israel off the map," which was a horrible mistranslation, BTW. But they will use Palestinians as proxies, so Israel will have a tough time justifying retaliation against the nations really responsible.
In this region where "the enemy of my enemy is my ally," Palestinian Arabs are deluding themselves to think Iran gives a f#%k about them. Arabs and Persians have an emnity going back much longer than Sunni/Shi'a conflicts. Iran and Israel should be allies, since they share a common enemy. But the Iranians believe Israeli agaents assisted the US in the coup that imposed the Shah on them in 1953, and they therefor use threat and proxy war as an internal political ploy.
So the Iranians don't care how many Palestinians are killed as Israel tries to stop Hamas from tossing Iranian missiles at them. In the process, their Arab rivals in the region are humiliated by their inability to save their Palestinian brothers. If Iran really, really cared about the Palestinians, they could pressure them to coexist with Israel, especially in Gaza, which no longer has any Israeli settlements. They could then invest in industries so the Gazans would have jobs without crossing into Israel.
Obama/Clinton need to call Iran out on this, and point out what I have written. When Iran makes threats against Israel, point out that they are full of shit, that they wouldn't dare attack. Point out to the Palestinians that they will never be rescued by their fellow Arabs; even if an Arab state got nukes, it would just be a standoff; they would not invite mutual annihaltion for the sake of Gaza and the West Bank.
But also draw the line on settlements. Tell Israel that our protection will be withdrawn if they persist in their land grab. Tell the settlers that they don't have to leave, but they will be subjects of the Palestinian Authority if they stay.
nothing further to add
Now, if someone would please tell Mr. Obama......
Here's Obama and so-called Change.
http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/swear_dees.jpg
and im sure that his team will get right to work on the issue, and not wait 7 years like the bushies did
not saying that he will solve all the problems...but his administration will stay involved
which should calm things on the ground
Obama has Hillary to dodge the sniper fire. KindaSleazy Rice couldn't do that with those Mistress boots on.
I've NEVER seen IRAN (At leat in the latest 200 years)Invading and Occupaying any Country Like Israel and the US Do?
SO wants to control?
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/so...
Just look at the maps!
and gosh...the hostage crisis was just a fun day at the park
give me a break
you have been spending way too much time watching george galloway
and this is the second time someone has posted that absolutely misleading map
that image of "palestine" was never a part of any mandate
when the original map appeared as it did, the entire area was occupied by other powers
there was never an independent country of palestine
The hostage crisis is none of your business as you are obviously batting for Israel. The hostage crisis was between the U.S. and Iran. As such, you should shut up and mind your own business.
If you can post a map of an independent Israel prior to 1948, then we can talk. Until then, put a sock in it.
When Gamal Abd Al-Nasser was in power, he was trying to negotiate with the United States over gaining a foothold in the region. That is to say that when the U.S. was up against the Soviet Union, Egypt asked the U.S. to invest in its Great Dam project, in return Egypt was to become a close ally to the U.S. in the region.
But, as history goes, the U.S. reneged on that promise and ended up backing Israel. That's when Abd Al-Nasser went to the Soviets. They financed the project for Egypt.
When the war broke, Egypt was up against, not only Israel, but the rest of the imperialist powers, Britain, the U.S. and France. Israel didn't manage to pull a heroic victory due to some military prowess.
Furthermore, the Palestinians are not Iran's proxy. You're 100% wrong on that. Hamas, on the other hand, was looking for an ally in the region and Iran seemed like a good choice. That relationship is less than 8 years old.
Lastly, you make it sound like Iran controls the Palestinians and their national aspirations. I have no idea what history books you're reading or what political research you're familiar with, but the Palestinian people have been struggling for decades now to reach a just agreement with Israel. Do you think they enjoy being humiliated under Israel's occupation?
"...they could pressure them to coexist with Israel".
Bud, you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.
End of discussion. Go read up on the conflict then come back with some incite.
Hamas with Iran is flabbergasting for other reasons.
Persian to Arab. Shia to Sunni. It's unthinkable and if there wasn't enough proof (there seems to be) I'd have said that was an impossible alliance. Yet, it is.
Persians trying to return to their historical role (and I mean really historical not recent) as the diplomatic heavyweight of the area?
"Hamas, on the other hand, was looking for an ally in the region and Iran seemed like a good choice."
Because the Arabic nations consider Hamas to be troublemakers.
"you make it sound like Iran controls the Palestinians and their national aspirations."
Clearly, I make no suggestion of that. But Iran is exploiting the situation to embarass the Arabic nations while tormenting Israel.
I express myself as clearly as possible, but I can't stop you from misinterpreting what I write. Iran's leadership is using Palestine for reasons of domestic politics. The Iranian public is about fed up with the Islamic Revolution, so the ayatollahs exploit resentment toward Israel for the 1953 coup as a distraction. They have no desire for territorial gain, nor a concern for the Palestinian Arabs. The Iranian nuclear program is mostly a means of provoking Western objections, which stirs up nationalist pride, keeping the religious leaders in power.
No, Iran certainly has no control over Hamas, or Palestinian aspirations. Nobody, and I mean nobody controls Hamas. But Iran exploits the situation.
Israel still shelling Gaza from gunships while in alleged cease-fire.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=82769&se...
by hamas immediatly after the cease fire was called....or of the gun battle between hamas and the idf?
presstv and al jazeerah are as good as faux news
Yeah and some of us made that point when Israel invaded in the first place. You do not undermine and delegitimized the radical militant by launching a military attack that kills hundreds of civilians, but rather the reverse. The way to strengthen the moderates (which it may already too late for) is to actively and legitimately engage them in real negotiations with tangible results.
you attract more flies with honey, than you do with rocket propelled grenades and airstrikes.
but rocket strikes by "Hamas" gave Israel exactly what they wanted.
Israel wouldn't be the first nation to willingly sacrifice a few of its citizens to advance their long term goals.
whats a few throw-away rockets and a few civilians when there is so much more to gain?
Israel did engage Sadat, Arafat, and Abbas, and the Palestinians still side with scumbags like Hamas.
They did engage Hamas as well. Sure, Hamas was drug in the room by its ear kicking and screaming by other Arab states.
Right of Return and Jerusalem were the problem, not Hamas. Hamas agreed that if a peace plan was accepted by Isreal then voted on by the Palestinians and won, they would accept it. Israel never accepted one, neatly getting Hamas out of having to live up to that statement.
the way to get more moderate Israeli politicians into office is to stop firing rockets and mortars in to Israel. Never mind suicide bombers. Be thankful no one thought to fire a few rockets into the US during the election or we'd be waiting for president McCain to take office.
I should be thankful no one thought to fire rockets into the U.S.?
Spare me.
As far as moderate Israeli politicians go, you can thank the right-wing Israeli nutjob that assassinated Yitzhak Rabin and then expand on that.
In March 1997, President Kennedy’s son, John, Jr., ran a controversial article in his magazine, George. The article was written by Guela Amir, mother of Yigal Amir, the man who assassinated Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995. In the article, Ms. Amir made it quite clear that her son did not act alone. She provided compelling evidence that Rabin’s assassination was sponsored by the Israeli government, and that her son had been goaded into shooting the prime minister by an agent provocateur working for Shin Bet, Israel’s equivalent of the FBI and Secret Service combined into one agency. The motive for the killing was because Rabin was going to give land back to the Palestinians as specified in the Oslo Accords. The following is Ms. Amir’s article in its entirety:
http://www.jfkmontreal.com/jfk_jr_&_rabin.htm
The only reason Israel continues to expand past the 1967 borders is because "the bible says so".
Ask any settler in the West Bank, they'll tell you the land was given to them by God and that they don't owe you any other explanation. It's part of the "Greater Israel" agenda. Even Jewish and Israeli scholars have said so time and time again. The radicals will dismiss them as self-hating Jews. Radicals like tubesucks, sh-peter g and the like.
Unfortunately, it's coming up on 3AM here and I am fading, dammit.
I am tempted to drink some coffee to keep on with the good fight but unlike Uncle tubesox the techie, (in case you missed it that's what he wants to be called) I have to get some sleep.
Loom, you are a gem.
G'night good soul.
because they say that their prophet tells them so
so you demean one religion yet turn a blind eye to the other and their radicals
as to calling jewish "intellectuals" self hating jews, when they deny history and ask their fellow citizens to engage in suicidal actions...yes, they are self hating
last week, neve gordon attempted to compare the rocket attacks to how many israelis die on the highways each year
i seem to recall wingnuts doing the same in regards to the danger and death in iraq
on this site, those people were laughed at...with good reason...the comparison is laughable
if neve gordon and others wish to commit suicide...let them do so...but they have no right to take others with them...just as hamas has no right to take the other palestinians along on their path to suicide
"and why do the Palestinians believe the land is theirs? because they say that their prophet tells them so"
Wrong! The Palestinians don't have to believe anything. It's not a matter of "belief" or faith or whatever foggy blurry mishmash you're trying to pass off. They were THERE to begin with. So it's simply a matter of staying where their great great great grandfathers were born and raised. I'm sure you can grasp that concept.
Now, if you're going to come back with some religious nonsense like "Israel is 2000 years old, so the Israelis were there first", then I will point you to the old testament, to the book of Joshua. Read up on how the Israelites were instructed upon entering Jericho, the land of Canaan, to burn everything down to the ground.
So, what does that tell us? It us tells that the Palestinians were there even before the Israelites left Egypt.
"so you demean one religion yet turn a blind eye to the other and their radicals"
Again, the reasoning skills you display are of very, shall we say, "limited" capacity. Everything is black and white with you. That's the very definition of a fanatic. Look it up and get a clue.
Nonetheless, for the record, the broad brush you're trying to paint every single Muslim group from China to Bosnia with is pathetic.
Al-Qaeda is to Hamas like apples to oranges. They have nothing to do with each other.
There isn't even any comparison. Hamas' goals are to end the occupation and help the Palestinian people achieve their national aspirations (i.e. an independent state). The same goes for Fatah. The difference is that Israel has managed to bend Fatah and put them on a leash. Essentially, Fatah became like many puppet regimes in the Middle East, including Nouri-Al Maliki's government in Iraq.
Hamas was legitimately and democratically elected. Their launching rockets, no matter how you spin it, is legitimate in light of the brutal military occupation they are under. Every group on the face of the planet has a right to resist occupation by whatever means necessary.
Have they committed acts of terrorism in the past (suicide bombings)? The answer is yes.
Has the Israeli government committed acts of terrorism against Palestinian civilians in the past? The answer is yes.
As an example, look up Noam Chomsky's articles for information on how Israel assassinated and kidnapped Palestinian government representatives whose only crime was to be members of a political party in the Palestinian legislature, the Hamas party.
So why are we going back and forth with this subject?
You keep arguing over semantics and trivial details, whereas I'm trying to get a simple idea sink into your head. That idea being the big picture. The big picture is the 60 year old conflict and the occupation.
If Israel wants to solve that problem and as the one that has the upper hand from the Jordan river to the sea, it needs to engage with Hamas in fruitful and binding negotiations.
So far, however, all the agreements that the Palestinians signed with Israel were ignored, just like the Security Council's ceasefire resolution last week, which Israel ignored.
When the Ma'arch (Labor) party was voted out in Israel in the late 90s and Netanyahou's Likud came to power, he pretty much voided all the agreements that were signed with the Palestinians. When Sharon later came to power, he sought to escalate things even further and make the occupation even more brutal. It's that kind of political climate and abuses that gave greater legitimacy to Hamas as a budding party, both politically and militarily (as a resistance group).
Israeli politicians and military commanders have been saying the same over the last 60 years. Their ultimate goal is to prolong the so-called peace talks, while keeping the occupation in place and slowly drive the Palestinians out of the region.
So the gullible Palestinian leadership keeps going along with the charade. In 2006, Gazans had enough. Fatah wasn't producing any results to improve their living conditions or ease the day to day struggles of living under an occupation. So they elected Hamas. Just as many out there this year elected Obama. They didn't elect him because he was their first choice, but because there weren't many options and he marketed himself as the agent of change. The same happened with Hamas in Gaza. In fact, under Hamas, law and order was restored in Gaza. Criminals were tried and sentenced, speeders were given fines and teacher, doctors and government employees were finally getting their paychecks on time. When Fatah was in power in Gaza, non of this was anywhere to be found. So, Hamas, did in fact manage to restore a sense of normalcy for Gazans, albeit limited in scope.
Now, we all know that actions speak louder than words. Israeli leaders can shout "we're a peaceful nation, seeking a lasting peace with the Palestinians" all day long. That doesn't make it true. If Israel, a colonizing power in Palestine, wants to live with peace, not on its arrogant terms, but through compromising and reaching an understanding with the Palestinians, only then will things change.
But, Israel doesn't want to give the Palestinians a single square foot. It wants to keep it all.
And don't even bother with "Hamas' charter calls for the destruction......" blah blah blah.
Fatah changed its charter in the early 90s before engaging with Israel in peace negotiations. A lot of good that has done them.
The point is - I'll break it down for you because I know you're going to miss it - that recognizing Israel's right to exist within whatever borders or changing the charter to read whatever Israel asks of them, is not the obstacle to peace. It is merely an excuse to stretch this so-called process as long as possible.
Surely, butchering 1300 Palestinians every few years can only help Israel in its quest to stun the Palestinian population's growth rate and maintain a demographic advantage.
Loom
Keep on HAMERIMG tubesox the SHILL
would be everybody in the world. The first rule of extremists is to first kill the moderates. If you think any Palestinian leader could stand up and take a conciliatory tone in Gaza without risking assassination you are very much mistaken. Arafat said as much. He said he could make a deal anytime with Israel but he wouldn't survive the next day.
I've read C&L off and on for awhile and you seemed so damn intelligent and rational until it came to this subject.
To be honest, it surprised me and kills me to see your other side.
You write this:
the way to get more moderate Israeli politicians into office is to stop firing rockets and mortars in to Israel. Never mind suicide bombers. Be thankful no one thought to fire a few rockets into the US during the election or we'd be waiting for president McCain to take office.
Then you give some kind of ham handed rational for saying "we" when clearly you are referring to the President of the United States as supposed to be just that.
I don't think he is supposed to be the President of Canada.
When I call you out on the obvious fact that you are Canadian you write some king of weird definition of what you meant by "we" where you extrapolate into some bizarre "We are the world" explanation for your own (forgive me) stupid comment.
No one should have to wade through this kind of out and out bullshit to get to the heart of the matter.
The first rule of extremists is to kill the moderates?
I leave you with Yitzhak Rabin. Explain your way out of that paperbag and since this is Martin Luther King Day in the United States of America and you are so eager to speak for Americans and the entire world, you can really expand on that rule you are talking about with extremists.
While you are at it, take JFK, RFK and really, really think about it on Malcolm X.
Just to remind you: you said that the first rule of extremists are to kill moderates.
I am anxiously awaiting your well-informed and empathatic response for all the downtrodden people in the world.
You set yourself up, defend it.
They'd be willing to engage in a cease-fire with Israel; so I don't exactly trust them. They're just looking for excuses to avoid peace.
the plan of Hamas is to kill themselves in order to avoid peace. Hard to win an argument when you are dead.
So you watched CNN and came on here to opine?
That's impressive [/snark]
1. In early December Hamas offered Israel to extend the ceasefire period. Israel ignored the calls.
2. On Nov 4th, Israel attacked and killed 8 Hamas members, thus violating the ceasefire.
3. During the 6 month ceasefire, Israel was supposed to open the crossings. It didn't. Hamas were supposed to stop launching rockets, they did.
Internalize and move on.
creating TWO States, and Egypt and Jordan invaded West Bank and Gaza respectively, where they stayed until 1967, when Israel took Egyptian Occupied Gaza and Jordanian Occupied West Bank. and, you know, no one gave a shit about the occupants of Gaza and the West Bank until Israel occupied it. from 1949, until 1967 NO ONE gave a shit, not even the UNRWA. NO ONE.
and your response is right on the money
unless someone can show us the un resolutions or any call by any arab government for a palestinian state from 48-67
what you can see is a vid from 1951 posted on youtube showing the terrible conditions of the gazans...under egyptian occupation
but even then...israel was being blamed
how convenient
We have a winnah! Gawd. After reading this entire thread, I'm left with the clear impression that no meaningful discussion is allowed to take place with the constant harangueing from this tubesox person and some of the more insipid scream posts that capitalize words like ZIONIST which we all know will go nowhere fast.
Has anyone ever thought about simply discussing that loaded term in factual detail? So sick of the trolls/plants on blogs who supposedly can't grasp this and seem bound and determined to write crap like IT'S THE ZIONISTS! Anyone who understands the way the world works would be more circumspect just to stop the inevitable follow up comment which inevitably serves to nullify all rational discussion henceforth due to cries of victimhood and anti-semitism, etc.
The blog-clog which has been the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has gone on long enough to the point where it can't be ignored anymore but childish ravings are simply stultifying which I'm sure they are meant to be to keep people from wanting to bother wading through the morass.
It's really sickening. Is there such a thing as a time-out?
If not, there should be.
I am one of those who use the word ZIONISM because it is NOT equal to JUDAISM.
All ZIONIST are JEWS but all JEW aren’t ZIONIST
Just take a look at these sites:
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
http://www.nkusa.org/
In fact, these are JEW and ANTI-ZIONIST at the same time.
So I don’t blame JEWS not even ISRAEL (Which is British Mistake) I blame those hard liners ZIONISTS and their IMPERIAL FANTASIES of a “GREATER ISRAEL from the NILES to the EUPHRATES”.
If you have something SMARTER to say JUST say it, but please don't blame other who try to speak out these topics well ignored by the MSM.
Login or Register to post comments.