L.A. Times on Budget: Fair Taxes or Class Warfare?
By Susie Madrak Saturday Feb 28, 2009 12:00pmThe Republicans have been pushing the "class warfare" theme since Obama released his budget. The cable talking heads and the Beltway bobbleheads have mostly swallowed it whole and regurgitate the GOP talking points, but this L.A. Times article actually takes a look at the facts:
"Throughout our history, the United States has grown and prospered when all Americans have shared in the opportunities created by our economy," Obama said in the budget overview. (A more detailed formal budget will be sent to Congress in April.)
Some Republicans denounced the priority shift in Obama's budget as class warfare, and the budget is sure to face several tests as it works its way through Congress. Also, some economists warned that higher taxes on the affluent could reduce their entrepreneurial energy and were unfair because upper-income Americans already pay a large share of the government's total revenue.
It would be nice if they made a distinction here: Namely, that many of the economists in this group are in the employ of right-wing think tanks. But not many media types ever bother to point that out.
Many other economists think history supports Obama's argument that the country's overall prosperity has generally increased when those in the middle did better.
During the economic boom that followed World War II, income inequalities eased as the middle class prospered. One reason was the availability of increasingly well-paying jobs in manufacturing and other booming sectors of the economy. Strong unions were able to negotiate contracts that gave even relatively unskilled workers more than such workers had earned in earlier times.
Also, those in the upper income brackets were heavily taxed. Until the 1980s, the top tax bracket was 70%, though most wealthy Americans found ways to shelter much of their income from the highest rates.
In the 1990s, as manufacturing gave way to an economy based on services and technology, incomes would have become more unequal even without government action, said William G. Gale of the Brookings Institution. But the tax cuts enacted under George W. Bush accelerated the trend.
"If inequality was growing because everyone's income was growing a lot -- but the rich were just growing faster -- then it might not be that much of an issue," Gale said. "But what has happened in the last 10 years is that incomes at lower and medium levels have stagnated while the rich have gotten really rich."
In 1980, the richest 1% of Americans claimed 10% of all national income. In 2004, they claimed more than twice as much -- 22%.
"There's nothing wrong with making money," Obama's budget document said, "but there is something wrong when we allow the playing field to be tilted so far in the favor of so few."
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It is class warfare all right.
As Warren Buffett rightly points out, his class is winning.
The Republicans have been waging class warfare on poor people since Ronnie Ray-Gun proposed that his wealth would "trickle down" to the masses. Crumbs from the master's table... THAT's what THE PEOPLE were supposed to be grateful for. It has taken this long for THE PEOPLE to start voting in their own self-interest! We finally have leadership in Washington DC willing to increase FOOD STAMPS for poor people... and at the same time, raise taxes on rich people.
We're at war, alright... economic war.
It was during that mis-administration that the upper classes got together in their cozy, little, 'ThinkTanks' and iniated their programs against FDR's compassionate 'entitlements', so-called. It is called SHIFT AND SHAFT, and it was a program (shadow, of course) that shifted the burden of the entitlements to the so-called 'middle class', which the rich then proceeded to wipe out, of course, so, now the POOR, the poorest of the working POOR pay the entitlements. Go to gregpalast.com You will have to search for it, tho I saw it there not long ago.
The corporations, Wall Street, and the wealthy have been waging class warfare against the working class all of my life. If the wealthy want a class war, then let's give it to them. After all we the workers are fighting for survival. Where the wealthy are fighting for more excess and luxury.
One way that we can make this class war extremely painful for the corporations, and for Wall Street is to whenever possible buying used goods. Buying used goods helps your neighbors, and the money doesn't go to China or the pockets of the wealthy. A second positive effect is less ending up in the garbage dumps.
Always good to hear small solutions to big problems. The small steps are never futile. This is a good one. Don't just buy local, buy used. Go to your neighborhood garage-sale rather than Wal-Mart. I like it.
My folks picked up some gorgeous tables at an estate sale. There are estate and bankruptcy sales aplenty these days. The auctioneer said they can't sell the stuff: people don't want used. They paid almost nothing for gorgeous wooden living room tables.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/viewbyda...
Until the time were we get to a budget in surplus there is no such thing as a tax "cut". There is only a tax deferment. The money is going to be spent, we just will not collect the taxes to pay for it. The Republicans like to use the term tax and spend Democrats, well the Republicans from Ronald Reagan have cut taxes and borrowed the difference. They keep telling the same lie that tax cuts increase government revenues. In the history of the world tax reductions have never ever increased revenues.
we have no chance for a democracy. It is the buffer between poverty and excess.
The Repubs are complaining about having their taxes raised... from 30% to 39%. Let's not forget that during the 50's, a time considered prosperous, etc., there was a 93% tax bracket. 93%. Honest.
Cry me a river you spoiled bastards.
In the 50's it was illegal for a hospital to turn a profit or turn away anyone who needed care.
And if they didn't pay for their care, the State or the Church that ran the hospital made up the difference.
We HAD de facto Universal Health Care then.
The Insurance Companies didn't really get involved until LBJ started MediCare and turned it over to the Insurance Companies.
Let them pay what I pay 26% no loopholes!!!!
not wealth, which for most rich people, is a small percentage of their money.
Back when taxes were at 70% or higher, we didn't hear people complain about class warfare, or communism, or whatever. Maybe this is unrelated, but when did men stop "dealing with" obstacles and start name calling and complaining? How did this become a substitute for taking action?
I've been happy to see a few pundits and media outlets point this stuff out, although there can't be enough of it, and as it is, it's far too rare. Almost every time a conservative discusses economics, he or she leaves out very important context such as this, presents deceptive statistics, or outright lies. I guess even they realize "We want to give even more of your money to the wealthiest individuals and companies in America" isn't that good a sales pitch.
you won a lottery of $1,000,000 dollars, you would have to pay 35% in income tax. They on the other hand can gamble in the stock market and only pay 15% on their capital gains. Tax them to the max.
And place a Sales Tax on the Sales and Purchase of Stocks and all other similar Financial Instruments.
This would not only raise needed revenues, but would also discourage playing the market and encourage real investment.
(Is it happy hour yet?)
Excellent idea, MountainMan23.
These things need to come back.
Many many years ago, people held onto stocks for decades, let alone years. Playing the market quarter to quarter is not what it's built for.
That the US extracts tax on winnings, I can understand tax on interest used as income, but not on the win.
Seems a bit unfair to do the CGT thing.
$1.5 trillion for shady bankers who don't know how to manage big budgets and who loan money to the wrong people
$75 billion for "homeowners" (my generation's version of the "landowner")
nothing for minimum wage renters who work for a living
...who I like, really gets in a bunch about this and had to squeeze it in again on Bill Maher last night.
He believes that higher taxes on the wealthiest is like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. I find it unfathomable that conservatives truly believe that if Bill Gates or Warren Buffet or any billionaire on the planet would stop doing what they were doing if they could only take home 50% of $100 million a year instead of 55% or 60%.
I had an anesthesiologist say to me, in high dudgeon, mind you, that if his marginal rate went up even 5% (if Obama got elected), he was going to quit practicing!
These people need to be ridiculed, frankly. I remember hearing Paul O'Neil say something along the lines of, "If you are making business decisions based on the changes in your marginal tax rate, then you are a fool."
Cheers,
The goose, that is. The rest of us will dine on its carcass.
Seriously, you are right, cmhmd. These people need to be ridiculed.
Just wow.
I was also listening to a man the toher day who called into the Hannity radio show. He said he identified as a liberal ideologically, but he's against universal healthcare.
Why would he be against universal healthcare, you ask?
Simple.
He's going to school to become a doctor. He was stating that he didn't want the government to decide what his paycheck will be.
Plain and simple greed can turn even the people who are supposed to be the best of humanitarians into low-lifes.
It was really sad to listen to that.
Pay the doctors a nice upper middle income SALARY and put them to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week - treating patients.
The LAST type of person we need treating patients is the GREEDY BASTARD.
And give the extra money the doctors wouldn't be making anymore, to the TEACHERS. They're probably one of the most underpaid careers out there.
I really was disturbed that a student studying to become a doctor would be upset that he can't make as much money because MORE people are HEALTHIER. Doesn't that, by its very nature, defy the Hippocratic Oath?
maybe student ones get boring wages, but from everything I have ever read, with a few years under your belt its gravy train time.
But I live in AZ, where teachers MIGHT make 50K after decades of teaching, and often ahd to buy supplies for their classrooms out of their own pockets.
And it's only getting worse here.
I would know, my boyfriend is studying to become a teacher, and we're going to HAVE to move in order to have a hope of having a family and being able to afford it.
Plus, my uncle teaches fourth grade. He's been teching over twenty years, and had to have a second job in the evenings to make sure all the bills got covered. He got laid off from that, and it was very thin times for their family until my aunt got a job teaching (with a specialized private school).
So no, underpaid teachers isn't a myth.
Thats a bit on the weird side.
Are you talking pencils, paper or books ?
Software, you name it.
I can remember teachers BEGGING my fellows and I not to abuse stuff because they had to buy it with their own money and it needed to last.
So where did you get your info that teachers are paid well?
do you live? No offense, but I'm going to take a wild stab and imagine that you have a hate-woody on for all public employees?
Every teacher I know, and I know many, and, they work in many different states, buys supplies for their rooms. Many of them buy very basic things, such as paper for their printers.
Indeed. Tis true. Many school boards supply enough stuff to last about one month, then you're on your own.
Some here complaining like crazy, others wonder why
http://www.employmentspot.com/employment-arti...
Because I didn't see a single salary on there that was where I thought it should be. Several of the commenters were looking for districts that paid more, or at least had lower costs of living.
Fairly indicative of a teacher's plight (and god forbid they have a family!) is this passage:
The latest report indicated that the average teacher salary was $47,602. The Federation indicated that unfortunately, teachers are struggling to find housing in their areas that they can afford on their salaries.
That means that the teachers teaching your children are making ONLY about twice as much as you average fast food WORKER. McD's store managers make MORE than the average teacher.
Yeah, your article proves my point. Teachers have one of the most underpaid careers out there.
I went to a state university - formerly a teacher's college.
The elementary education students - and I am talking majority, not all - were the bane of instructors in demanding departments. Poor scholarship, poor social skills, poor thinking skills.
It wasn't uncommon to hear a professor sigh when told that a student with a bad academic rep was an el ed major. Nobody was ever surprised. (Why do I single out el ed? Secondary education demanded a real subject of study, in addition to "education," though the education courses are no better, from all I've observed.)
I knew several people who became education majors: the smartest and most talented dropped out - except one, who stuck out three miserable years, and within five years of graduation was teaching in a very exclusive private school. I asked each of the teachers I was still in contact with after a few years teaching, How many of those education courses actually helped prepare you for teaching? From the most to the least gifted, the reply was the same: smirk and scoff.
By the way, check out the pay-scale for Chicago - and pension in 20 years.
School day (Chicago): 5 3/4 hours. Teachers in classrooms from 8:30 - 3:00. (For grades 1-3 that's long enough to grade and correct homework. Grades 4-6: often enough time to correct homework; grades 7-8, varies, usually between week and week-end.) School year: September through mid-June. Within that "year": winter holiday: day before Christmas Eve till January 2 (or the Monday following), week-long spring break, more paid sick days and "personal days" than most full-time workers I know.
An experienced teacher willing to work summers, can gross six figures in Chicago.
While teachers are quick to insist that they ought to be paid like Japan's teachers, they back off when asked whether they want to have to work the same hours - 5 full days and half a day on Satuday. They go absolutely nuts when asked if they want to be have to match the academic criteria: in Japan, all teachers come from the upper ranks of college students, and training is rigorous. (In the U.S., elementary education teachers come from the lowest ranks: the last summary of GRE scores that I saw, broken down by major, put education majors in the bottom three spots on the three tests.)
I have known some good teachers, and they are embarrassed by their fellow "professionals." And the Chicago Teachers Union has fought every effort to raise standards for either teachers or students. They seem able only able to fight for wages and benefits.
Lots of places have underpaid teachers - but that isn't the case everywhere. Questions of teacher pay simply do not lend themselves to national debate.
Oh, where do you live, that fast-food workers - (who work long days and full years) - make more than $20,000?
And I was a manager.
Just barely scraped 20K, before taxes, if I worked overtime every week.
No fun whatsoever.
I'm married to a teacher, who also coaches, and I can
guarantee you that it's not the gravy train. My husband works his ass off and he's very good at what he does. I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that we probably pay more for our health insurance than you do and we don't have the cadillac plan. Not only that, but our porn-loving governor, Jim Gibbons, wants to actually reduce salaries.
You really don't know what you're saying here!!
Because I know for a fact that most teachers in this country would have a problem with the statement "After a few years, it's gravy train time."
Yeah ,I've been saying it for years that if the wealthy paid more in taxes it would be business as usual ! Who the fuck are they trying to kid? Just like the assholes,on both sides, who day they are leaving the country if their candidate isn't elected as in Alec Baldwin's CRAZY brother, I can't even remember the cocksuckers name but I think he's still here!It's called either bullshit or hot air!
Where did you read that, in the Martian Gazette?
Then you're reading GOP stuff. I am a teacher.
Everyone seems to know all about teachers because they sat in a classroom as a kid. It's GOP nonsense. It's really tough work, which you need professional status for, but the pay does not reflect that. No one even seems to respect teachers any longer. The situation continues to worsen.
that potential dr. is an idiot. there is nothing new saying the government will determine what a dr. is paid actually that system somewhat exist depending on what your situation is. medicare/medicaid/third party
healthCare for profit. healthCare giants are a monopoly who somewhat control what they pay the physician.
like price fixing. this is more HANNITY scare propoganda nonsense. having universal healthCare scares the (R) party. to many people make HUGE profit from being inefficient.
Hook, line, and sinker, didn't he?
Airway
Book
Chair
that one, but it's very good and true.
I actually watched an anesthesiologist sit during a surgery and read the Wall St. Journal to catch up on his stocks.
As a group, they are generally some of the most offensive of the physicians. I have met a few that were good people, but most are pompous, self-important blowhards.
is their main text book.
With all of the improvements in the technology of monitoring sleeping patients, their jobs consist of listening to the beeping and checking a screen periodically. This is borne out by their overall reductions in malpractice premiums over the last decade. Now I grant you that anesthetic complications are fewer, which is good for patients. But anesthesiologists make well over 250K per year and are incensed over the impending tax changes, even though their jobs are easier. I often spend more time waiting for operations to start (called "turnovers") than I do assisting in many procedures, and this is often due to lazy anesthesiologists (and a few nurses and OR aides who drag their feet). I often get into heated political discussions (between cases mind you) with these individuals who get their talking points from the WSJ and the Economist. And they are quite well read in these talking poinst because, well, they have the time during the cases to read up. They are 99% republicans.
"Those who do not know when enough is enough, can never have enough."
I actually think that these elitist folks are mentally deficient (maybe from all the in-breeding) or, at the very least, they suffer from some chemically-induced mental illness that has addled their brains.
Really, I think it must be some form of brain dysfunction that makes people hoard - crap OR money. How much is enough?? How much does one person or family need to live comfortably/well??
And, when it comes to warfare ---- well, we'll see who has class.
mmmm A classless society - not what I thought it meant...
As others have said, when does it trickle? How many toys must a gazillionaire have before it is enough? How many yachts, how many homes, how many bank-accounts are enough before that wealth feeds the hungry, houses the homeless, and gives care to the sick?
Upper-class, middle-class, lower-class - who indeed has the most?
is a self-centered tool. Good riddance to medical assholes like him. He's is a perfect example of the problems with medicine. He's not in it to help anyone but himself and whatever odd proclivities he's perversed himself into.
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.
Louis D. Brandeis
Never has there been a real democracy when wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few. Functional democracies require a large, well educated middle-class. To the extent our middle-class is shrinking so is our democracy.
social policies and it didn't work out very well.
WARFARE?
no, what we're doing is fairly gentle, by comparison.
in the old days, the peasants would storm the castle, loot the treasure, and light thje place on fire.
in the old days, the peasants would round up everyone from marie antoinette to her pet poodle and drop the guillotine blade, for a throng of cheering spectators.
in the old days, the peasants would bring all the tsars into a room, unload their rifles and stick 'em all with their bayonet blades, just to be sure.
no, what we're doing is fairly gentle, by comparison.
The last time the world saw nations with this sort of disparity between the rich rulers and the poor workers, there were violent, VIOLENT overthrows: the Revolution in France, and after that, the Communist take-over in Russia.
We'll see how this one turns out. Much farther down the path we're on, and things will get pretty ugly, I think.
we'll beat 'em peacefully.
a lot of these bastards, like madoff, will die in prison, but we'll minimize any bloodshed.
I saw the election of President Obama (Ah, it's refreshing to say that!) as a sign that we are turning away from the violent revolution road.
Could be the beginning of the end.
The war has been going on for many years, and we've been losing.
I think there should be a guillotine erected on Wall St., just to scare some sense into them.
Why people (including all the members of my family) think that money does the economy more good sitting in some fat cats' bank accounts, than in their own hands and thus out into the marketplace for goods, etc.
When does it start trickling down? Because I sure haven't seen anything yet. Not even a decent job.
And of course, remember the old one: The people at the top of "trickle-down" won't ahve anybody to pay for their goods or services if the people down below aren't being trickled on.
Or maybe we are, but instead of cash, it's something a lot more unpleasant.
or will be rich in due time (American dreamers), and don't want to be burdened by higher taxes when they strike it rich? It is just self-interest. Sort of like how no one wants heaven to change its admission policies. Everyone thinks they'll eventually get in and live next door to Jesus and across the street from God.
My family knows they'll never be rich (my grandparents live on dwindling retirement money, my aunt and uncle are teachers(!), my dad has a regular white-collar job, and my mom works temp jobs).
They truly beleive that people who are rich A) deserve it, and B) will provide for them.
wow the irony the (R) are screaming what i was screaming 6-8 yrs. ago class warfare when BUSH gave HUGE tax breaks to the wealthy. in addition to that the BUSH administration allowed further deregulation for taking investment risk to further the economic gap.
The other day (Thurs?) Joe Scarborough said "stick it to the wealthy, stick it to the most productive" and Marc Morial of the Urban League called him on it immediately. Yay! Morial very correctly said that wealth and productivity don't aways correlate when he cited the work of teachers, firefighters, police, etc. Scarborough went quiet but in the next half hour basically repeated his mantra about wealth indicating productivity.
It's that kind of stubbornly dismissive attitude toward real workers that promotes class warfare. Many people are wealthy because they took risks and worked hard. Good for them. But many people are wealthy because SOMEONE ELSE took risks or worked hard.
because they figured out how to screw other people without getting caught!
many people are wealthy because they studied black magick very carefully!
and then they convince themselves it was all G-od's will!
well, we'll all see who gets the last laugh, eh?
My life is class warfare. As an auto-mechanic making 30k-50k a year, I pay 30% income tax. I can make the company I work for about 200-300k a year. The tool guy I have to buy tools from only pays 15% income tax along with the owner of the garage I work at 15%!!!! I pay 30% I also have higher interest rates on any loans or credit cards I wish to use, the owners have no interest rates. I pay more to live with less, they pay less to live with more, that is class warfare. That is republican, this is where I live, how bout you?
The class warfare started in school, if your not with-in the church type community you will do with less, you will have less rights, less of a chance to succeed. You will get more obstacles to hurdle. There has been class warfare for as long as I have been alive and as far back in history that I can tell. This is why our country is effectively run by morons, stem to stern. Business owners are total idiots around here that I have met, most property owners I have met are total uncaring idiots, all greedy higher class elites, that normally are the ones going to church each week to get their connections for jobs and ownerships they don't deserve. This is class warfare and it will never end, they own it, and its over, they won't sell to anyone but themselves, they won't higher anyone but them selves.
Yes I am pissed, only because I am not an idiot, I can fix any car faster and of high quality repairs than any one I worked for around here, I watch them pay their kind 20k more a year than me. I hate watching some guy pretending to be a real mechanic unable to perform his job at the level that I do, driving a bran new car every 2 years, owning a house and what not, while I starve and loose out unable to pay my rent and utilitys. I live in crap apartments that are inefficient so I pay more for electric, it goes on and on like this. Government services treat you differently when you need them, the police are the same, USA effectively sucks ass, and it comes from the organized Christians determined to rule the world! BooooYAAA
You should have the balls to go out and start your own business! Pull yourself up by your goddamn bootstraps, why don'tchya?!?!?!
I hate that mentality. I mean, sure you could do it, but until yo get a regular client base, etc, you're NOT going to be making money, and so you ahve to stay at the job you're at now until you have PLENTY saved up, and in this over-priced, under-paid time, that's nigh impossible.
It wasn't possible before, I have been working on cars since 1993, never at any point did I get a chance, I tried and tried,I got shut down man. Try buying 20k worth of tools only making 30k a year. Buy the time I had all but what I needed to start a half ass business it was Bushes second fucking term starting. I have since sold most of my heavy equipment, I have no where to store it, it's over. My American dream is crushed. If I thought all I had to do is pull on my boot straps a bit harder I would. Oh and yes I did have a massive customer base built up in around about 2002-2003, guess what happened, I turned into the enemy.:P
I feel you.
And VH1 has a great quote form somebody in honor of Black History Month, that I absolutely love: "It's not pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, it's about having access to the shoe store."
I can't offer much help. But all I can say it is that one of the main lessons that I learned was that the so-called "American dream" was nothing but a carrot at the end of a very long stick. A stick which is being held and wiggled by somebody else.
Live your dream, whatever that means. You only have one go at life. You are smart enough from how you described your analysis of the situation in your original post. I can't tell you want your path should be or what the solution to your situation should look like. I know you will be able to figure it out.
There are plenty of very pissed smart Americans, they are however way too disorganised. Thus the morons take over and f*ck it for the rest of us. Maybe we should start changing that.
Did your father leave you with a nice nest egg to get started? If not, why? Does dad know of the licenses you must buy, the legal hoops you have to jump through and bribes you must pay to start and keep your own business? If not, why? Did dad spend his life supporting the piece-of-shit government that makes it so difficult for you start and keep your own business? If so, why? Don't you think it's about time for the younger generation to tell the generation that created this no-incentive piece-of-shit business environment to go pound salt?
Then again, maybe dad wants you to sell your body or some such thing in the black/free market.
In fact, when it time for my first year of college...
My parents bought 3 quads and a trailer to pull them in.
And told me to pay for my college myself!
:-) Gotta love that "Reach for the carrot!!!! Reach! Jump!!!" type of attitude!
I don't know where you live, but most of the people I know would kill for an honest, efficient auto mechanic because we've had our cars fixed by the loser you mentioned in your last paragraph.
The idea that wealth will 'trickle down' from the top is nonsense. In my opinion, if you give a rich person more money, they'll simply buy a bigger yacht. They didn't become rich by giving money to those less fortunate...........they take advantage of them.
For whatever reason, conservatives have this idea that if you work hard enough, everybody can be a millionaire. I'm sorry, but the only way someone making $10 an hour is going to be a millionaire is if they can manage to work 100,000 hours in a year!
trickle down is another way of saying, "WE ARE PISSING ON YOU AND TELLING YOU IT'S RAINING, AND YOU ARE TOO DUMB TO EVEN REALIZE IT."
It is the equivalent to an IOU, expecting that the rich will give their fair share out of their own accord. Hello? The reason why some of those people are rich is because they are only good at one thing: hoarding wealth. How can you honestly expect that someone, whose main goal in life is to hoard as much wealth as possible, will out of their own accord share any of that wealth with the rest of the population?
It is like giving first dibs on the buffet line to the morbidly obese guy, and expect him to be considerate enough to leave enough of the best pieces of steak for the guy at the end of the line. It ain't gonna happen. Period.
You want to disprove trickle down economics to a rich guy? Simply ask him that you want to buy his car. Except, you will be paying him 1/10th of his asking price, and that you will make up the difference by giving him more of your business now that you can drive around. I betcha he will be laughing at your face.
So why do we allow the rich to literally laugh in our collective faces?
the yacht builders are happy. The wealthy are still always looking for a place to invest unless the investment environment is shit. The investment environment is shit when it's taxed. The only reason that all producers can't get way ahead of the game is because of the money that EVERYONE is being forced to hand over to the non-producers. The non-producers/parasites = government.
The double standard in pointing out class warfare in the media is obvious. Redistribution of wealth to the have-nots: class warfare. Redistribution of wealth to the 'haves': the GOP 'stimulus package'.
What has been happening for the past 30 years is class warfare - and I'd love it if Obama would take this bull by the horns and speak on the topic. I think it likely and if he did it could help change the dialogue.
They're trying to scare and confuse people with talk like this. Since the Reich-wing loonies have chosen this argument for their fight - it needs to be addressed.
*
like barney frank said this is a 'rollback to the clinton taxes'. he also mentioned this was implimented(sp)
earlier 90's and the wealthy did fine. then BUSH gives the wealthy HUGE tax breaks. all the while, some wealthy were hiding cash in off shore tax havens ie. cayman island and europe. UBS was recently in the media for this. these people don't want anything to do with the commoners who they make money off. these are people who routinely cheat to get what they want.
including a stint as a child recieving food stamps during the Reagan years, I can honestly say I don't inherently fault someone for having money.
It's when they think they are more entitled to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness than I am that I become disgusted. Mind you, I need a hell of a lot less than they do to have those things!
That's not the point. We all like wealth. The question is strictly one of economic philosophy: do you get a strong economy by redistributing the wealth to everyone, or do you get a strong economy by redistributing wealth to the wealthy? The last 25 years, we've been doing the latter, and our country has become a much weaker economy. Before that, when we had a more equitable distribution, we had a stronger economy. So the evidence is in favor of a more equitable distribution.
I was speaking to the woe-is-me whining that the Repubs are doing about class warfare and how they are being victimized when they are doing the victimizing, not which philosophy is preferable (I already agree with your statement).
The GOP, perpetually victimized, or so they'd like us to think. Just like Christianity is perpetually victimized-- somehow. And we are supposed to believe that too. Really?!?
As for the Christianity thing, I have to agree with that as well. One thing that has always peeved me to no end is the Western Christian belief that religious persecution is them not being allowed to put a manger up in front of city hall, or not being allowed to decide when and how their neighbor gets and stays pregnant, meanwhile their brethren in other parts of the country are being killed for being Christians. Makes Western Christians seem incredibly whiny in comparison.
They judge the economy on how well the stock market is doing. We must be making too much money because the stock market is tanking.
The real class warfare has just ended after 30 some years and for all you Ronnie Ray-gun lovers ,fuck you and friend you rode in on!
the wealthy don't like middleclass. why? they're educated,comfortable and too close for comfort. being rich is NOT enough for these people. they want the ENVY element also. they want to be told they are important and rich. many have a self-loathing about them.
that brush of yours is way too wide. There are a lot of wealthy people who are trying to make this world a better place. The ones who are assholes probably didn't come to their wealth honestly.
The FACT is that most of the rich, ruling class were born into their wealth, creating the same type of pig-selfish royalty that led to the great revolutionary war and the creation of the United States of america. Sadly, due to allowing fat cats to pass their wealth on to their spoiled inbred children (the rich almost always marry the rich), we have created a royal ruling class that should be done away with by a new U.S. revolution.
We can do it without violence this time simply by confiscating all assets of the wealthy upon their deaths. If their spoiled children want to be wealthy pigs like their parents were, let them do it on their own from a zero base like everyone else.
The fact is that most of the rich are selfish, narrow-minded slave masters who do not deserve the wealth and power that has been handed to them. We do not need these people. I say we can rid ourselves of them via fair taxation, caps on their earnings (no more interest earnings and the earnings of the top dog of any company should be limited to no more than 5 times that of the lowest paid employee), and elimination of inheritance. Others say that firing squads are the best way. Whichever way it is done, I hope it is soon.
...that seem relevant here.
One is John Kenneth Galbraith's brilliant takedown of the Reganomics of the 1980s:
"Their argument is that the poor don't work because they have too much and the rich don't work because they have too little."
The other from me, from the same period:
"What we ultimately reject is the right of so few to have so much when so many have to little. What we ultimately resist is the power of so few to control so much when so many control so little. What we ultimately affirm is the right of every human being to a decent life free of hunger, fear, and oppression. What we ultimately demand of our society is the effort to guarantee that right."
As much of what everything else they say. they don't care what they say or listen too close to what they say. That is probably the difference between Liberals and RePUGs
"...some economists warned that higher taxes on the affluent could reduce their entrepreneurial energy"
I guess that would be the same energy that's been exporting millions of jobs over the last 15 years? So-called conservative and libertarian philosphy seems to be nothing more than a way to rationalize greed.
I think we should give the "trickle up" theory of economics a try.
"...Taxes on the affluent could reduce their entrepreneurial energy..."
Even with the slightly higher taxes than these selfish pigs will pay, they are still better off here in the US than in any other country. I say if they're not happy here, they should get the hell out, and good riddance to all of them. You know, "America: Love It or Leave It!"
The FACT is that the ONLY people who produce wealth are the WORKERS. Any way you look at it, the rich are PARASITES on the backs of the workers and we can easily do better without them.
Every great advancement throughout our history was made by people dedicated to doing their best in their fields of endeavor for the benefit of all humankind, NOT to get more money, power and stuff. Einstein in his tattered, moth-eaten sweater comes to mind.
The people who are the worst when it comes to trying to "get more money, power and stuff" work in government. Yet you support government.
That's not true at all. Where did you come up with that stupid lie? You really should take time to educate yourself, pinhead, or at least develop some sense of morality and stop lying in here.
In the United States of America, we enjoy a government by, of and for the people. Don't like it? get out before we run over you.
During election season, a Repub business owner called in to Stephanie Miller's radio show. He said that if Obama were elected and raised his taxes (he made more than $250K/annum), then he would make sure he'd get that money back by paying his employees less. In other words, the rich will do what they've always done: take it out on the poor.
I hope that the President and Congress are ready to tackle this very-real likelihood of increasing taxes on the rich.
In most cases, they control the wages we earn or the products we purchase. And they are not about to reduce their spending habits or settle for income levels lower than what they have gotten quite comfortable with. They are like junkies, addicted to their lavish lifestyles. And they will act like junkies without their fix if their reduced incomes mean they can't buy new Porsches every year, have multiple homes, $100K/annum country club memberships, and the $$ it takes to raise their kids with the same sense of entitlement.
It's too bad that 90 % " plus " Republicans are too stupid and ignorant to understand that they have been voting against their own interests as well against the interest of their country when they vote for and support the Republican party . Is it any wonder the Republicans are anti education and against making college affordable for those who were not born into privilege and wealth ? Class warfare ! LOL . God forbid ! It is high time that the playing field is leveled and that the common man gets some representation and a fair shake . Hey Republicans ! Cry me a river ! Your Mitts , Biffs and Newts just might have to earn their way and face competition ! LMAO !
Why should the top 1% control 95% of the wealth? It's been a joke and we are becoming a third world country in our standard of living. Yea for the president.
they can appreciate tax free for decades.
...then conservatism, by the same argument, is the politics of sociopathy.
During the economic boom that followed World War II, income inequalities eased as the middle class prospered. One reason was the availability of increasingly well-paying jobs in manufacturing and other booming sectors of the economy. Strong unions were able to negotiate contracts that gave even relatively unskilled workers more than such workers had earned in earlier times.
Also, those in the upper income brackets were heavily taxed. Until the 1980s, the top tax bracket was 70%, though most wealthy Americans found ways to shelter much of their income from the highest rates.
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The post WW2 boom was the result of the U.S. becoming producer to the world, after the destruction a large part of global production capacity. It was a window in time, that would eventually would close.
The upper income was highly taxed, but the thing about extremes, they go from one to the other. A 90% tax rate swung to the opposite extreme. Now that we have reached the other extreme, as we have returned to the 1930's deflation era, top tax rates will swing the other way again.
As for unions, the 1950's were the era of U.S. production dominance, which faded away as the rest of the globe recovered their industrial capacity. It would take a WW3 to return to that era again.
Inflation, leads to disinflation, leads to deflation. Union power declines as inflation turns to disinflation. Disinflation also brings about deregulation. Cycles always repeat.
The 1920's and 1990-00's created great global over capacity, which lead into a depression era.
It is Kondrateiff Winter.
For whatever reason, conservatives have this idea that if you work hard enough, everybody can be a millionaire. I'm sorry, but the only way someone making $10 an hour is going to be a millionaire is if they can manage to work 100,000 hours in a year!
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Then tell me how Ann Schreiber (sp?) died, worth 22 million dollars, when she never made the big bucks? She lived frugally and invested over a long period of time.
Karl Denninger likes to say, how much did that pizza cost you, in college? A thousand dollars, as it wasn't invested, compounding over the years.
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