NYC Women Lose Home Birth Options With Closure of St. Vincent's Hospital
What if your baby dies?
Boy, doctors sure love to scare women who dare to question their judgment.
Via Susie Bright, here's an issue close to my heart. My first son was born in a hospital with a obstetrician and a nurse-midwife. They induced labor for what I found out later was a weak reason, he was born prematurely with hyaline membrane disease and he almost died.
I told my husband: "If I have to go back in the hospital, I'm not having another one." Fortunately, we located a supportive doctor and some good lay midwives, and my second child was born uneventfully in our bedroom. (On a bean bag chair.)
"What if something went wrong?" well-meaning people kept asking. "Being in the hospital saved your first kid's life." I tried to explain to them he would have been born full-term if I'd been at home, and no life-saving would have been necessary, but there's no talking to people about this. They're just too well indoctrinated with fear tactics.
Most complications of labor are identified with good pre-natal care. Obviously, if you have high blood pressure, an infection or similar factors, you should be in the hospital. There are very few conditions that are the proverbial "bolt from the blue" - and there are enough things that go wrong in hospitals.
What I avoided: An unnecessary episiotomy, low blood sugar (because I could eat in labor), hospital-bred bacterial infections, a higher risk of C-section (often brought on by staying in bed so the ultrasound monitor would work, causing compression on the umbilical cord -- or by an impatient doctor with a tee time, or by Pitocin-induced contractions) and being separated from my other kid. I felt so good after delivery, I got up and made breakfast for seven people.
Women should have real choices in childbirth. (In European countries, home delivery is no big deal.) But labor and delivery is the biggest cash cow American hospitals have, OB-GYNs are often reluctant to share power with their patients, and medical consumers have been trained to follow a doctor's authority without question:
The collapse of New York's legal home birth midwifery services has come as a result of the closure two weeks ago of one of the most progressive hospitals in the city, St Vincent's in Manhattan. When the bankrupt hospital shut its doors on 30 April the midwives suddenly found themselves without any backing or support.
There are 13 midwives who practise home births in New York, and under a system introduced in 1992 they are all obliged under state law to be approved by a hospital or obstetrician, on top of their professional training.
St Vincent's was prepared to underwrite their services, but most other doctors and institutions are not, and they now find themselves without the paperwork they need to work lawfully.
Miriam Schwarzschild, one of the 13, is now in the invidious position of either abandoning her clients or operating illegally. "Apparently by taking a woman's blood pressure I am committing an illegal act," she said. She has no doubts about what she will do: she will stand by the six to eight women she helps in labour every month, law be damned. She said she intends to "fly under the radar", but is anxious about what would happen should she be reported to the state authorities. "At any time a nurse or doctor could report me, and once that happens they could go after my licence and shut me down."
Jitters are spreading among the tiny community of home birth midwives. The rumour has circulated that one of them has already been shopped to the authorities by an obstetrician at a hospital where she transferred one of her clients in need of medical attention.
The crisis of home birth in New York city is an extreme example of a pattern found across America. Fewer than 1% of babies are born at home in the US, and in New York that figure is as low as 0.48% — about 600 babies every year out of 125,000. That compares with a rate of about 30% in the Netherlands.
he crisis of home birth in New York city is an extreme example of a pattern found across America. Fewer than 1% of babies are born at home in the US, and in New York that figure is as low as 0.48% — about 600 babies every year out of 125,000. That compares with a rate of about 30% in the Netherlands.
In much of Europe, midwives play the lead role in assisting most low-risk and healthy women to give birth, handing over to a specialist doctor or surgeon only when conditions demand. In the US, that relationship is reversed.
Obstetricians, who are trained to focus on interventionist methods and often have never even witnessed a natural birth, are in charge of about 92% of all cases. As a body, they are fiercely resistant both to midwives – who under the private medical system in America are their competitors – and to women choosing to remain at home.
In 2008 the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists put out a statement effectively instructing its members to have nothing to do with the "trendy" fashion towards home births. Yet despite Acog's stance, and despite the fact that the US spends more money on pregnancy and childbirth-related hospital costs than any other type of hospital care ($86bn a year), the country has the unfortunate distinction of having one of the highest rates of maternal mortality in the industrialised world. Its rate stands at 16.7 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births, compared with 7.6% in the Netherlands and 3.9% in Italy. Britain's rate is 8.2%.
On top of that, about one in three pregnancies in the US end in a caesarean section — a product, critics say, of the highly interventionist approach that includes frequent induced labours and epidurals. Amnesty International recently dubbed the US record on childbirth as a whole a "human rights crisis".
Knowledge of these statistics, and of what is now happening to New York midwives, makes Julie Jacobowitz-Kelly see red. She is one of Schwarzschild's clients and is preparing to give birth to her first child, a boy she and her partner have already named Benjamin, whose due date fell today.
She said the current illegal status of the home birth midwives was "a travesty, it's absolutely ridiculous. It angers me that experienced midwives like Miriam are in jeopardy."
That is a view shared by some senior New York politicians, including Scott Stringer, Manhattan borough president. "There are 600 women who are going to give birth in the next year who want midwives with them at home, and to take away their rights and choices is so backwards it's embarrassing," he said.
Midwifery organisations are scrambling to persuade other hospitals to take over St Vincent's role by signing the so-called "written practice agreements" the midwives need to be legal. So far 75 hospitals have been approached; not one has replied.
Meanwhile, a bill is sitting before the New York state assembly that would scrap the system of practice agreements and allow the midwives to offer their services free of the control of obstetricians. But the bill may not be put to a vote at all this year.
"At the end of the day, hospitals are for sick people, and I'm not sick," said Jacobowitz-Kelly. "I'm going through one of the most natural processes women can go through, so why do it anywhere other than the most natural setting — my home."


people who have children at home are idiots. They put the child under unnecessary risk. And you are misinformed about Europe. This is not an issue of women rights but the safety of a child.
Just trying to define the parameters.
and guess, male.
From checking his comments, he's male with the odd combo of a wiffe from a RW family, and while he claims to be "liberal" has had some rather homophobic beliefs.
I'll disagree with him here, but not slam him as a "t" or anything.
Just putting out the facts.
for black women being $5.00? His comment was that maybe they should pick up an extra shift. I sense that he doesn't like women, blacks, or homosexuals. And, he thinks he's fooling us liberal types.
I didn't have to sift through many comments to figure him out.
They just don't trust the American medical system. It's the same thing as going to Mexico to have dental work done.
Home births are acceptable for the majority of births. That's why up until the last century, most people were home births. And why in most of the rest of the world, births stay at home. FWIW, my husband's cousin is a midwife in Denmark, and there is a very high percentage of home births in that country. I almost went to Denmark to deliver my kids.
But men started moving in on the midwives and started demanding that women labor lying in beds (which is the worst possible position to do so), and that they do all sorts of other uncomfortable things, for their--the doctor's-- comfort.
Did you know that the most number of c-sections are performed on Friday? Know why? Because ob/gyns want to make sure that the damn kid comes out while they're at work and not force them to come in on the weekend.
Read Naomi Wolf's "Misconceptions"
You are painting a false dichotomy where it's pleasant and perfect births at home to horrible greedy hospitals and doctors. Some hospitals have midwives who do most of the birthing and if there's an issue then, well you are already at the hospital and can be cared for right away.
just like the nutballs on the right, I am sorry its often like cutting thru concrete talking to lefties.
Ms Madrak, please do us all a favor. And the same goes for your exuberant midwives. A dose of humor, self deprecation and humility is suggested for all of you. Googling for online has bloated patient expectations. Now they think having humility is passe.
I support the cautious note by Mack. Look Hospitals must be identified with the Corporate control (-read-) abuse of medicine at the expense of independent doctors who are the final arbiters and the patients ONLY informed ally. It is Corp medicine running hospitals that have delegated the entire birthing process to Oby-Gyn hospital based specialists. Yeah sure, you deserve the right to deliver at home, especially when prenatal care has identified high prospects for normal delivery. And you are willing to take the risk of unanticipated birth trauma beyond the pail of the midwife attendant. But do modernity a favor. Take the middle road of balanced patient care. What I ask is your midwives and other home birthers empower the Family Doctors who have significant obstetric training and insight, just a lil short of the OB-GYn specialists. The home birthing process would be better supervised by the family docs so problems are caught ahead and there is someone better than a pretty face midwife apologizing for the limits, at the worst moments. Please take this as a suggestion for some sanity while respecting homebirthers wishes to be enabled and yet provided some medical oversight. Errors would lead to increased birthing trauma. And your feature does not allude to any stats on homebirthing complications in those other lands.
You are so ignorant it's embarrassing.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
thanks for such insightful editing. Am at a loss for words
Doulas and midwives get to give more power to doctors? Family doctors are in no position to monitor pregnancies. They are there to do triage, basically- decide if what's going on deserves to be passed on to a specialist. A good family doctor is worth his weight in gold, but he would be the first one handing the pregnant woman off to a specialist. Finding an OB who is supportive of the home birth experience would be ideal. Because the perfect happens so often.
And you aren't keeping up with post-pregnancy mortality rates in this country, are you?
Three were hospital births and each of those was traumatic for various reasons. The last two included pitocin drips, which change the quality of the labor and make it very rough and difficult to work through.
Here's a word for that first poster, who doesn't (so far) have the nerve to come back and support some misinformed at best and misogynistic at worst, statements: Iatrogenic.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
If you want to stay healthy the last place you want to be is a hospital.
And that goes double for your newborn child.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
I had three hospital births. The first, a 24-hour labor, I received no nourishment and only a Demoral (sp?) for pain. I was flat on my back because of the monitor hook up.
The second and third births were forced by Pitocin. NO pain meds at all. The labor pains were heavily intensified. I screamed in pain the last half-hour of the third birth and began pushing before I was dilated. I was literally out of my mind with pain and remember saying, "push, push, push" as the nurse tried to get me to stop pushing. The doctor just stood there. He really didn't show any concern that I was in such pain. My (ex) husband allowed it to go on.
Never again would I use a hospital.
I've researched home births and found that they were as safe as hospital births. If I were to give birth again, it would be at home with a midwife and a doula.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
Source.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
One thing you omitted was the incredible resistance he encountered when he first issued the order. Medical personnel were insulted that he could imply they might be responsible for the deaths. Their egos were more important than women's lives - kinda like today, isn't it?
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
higher risk of C-section (often brought on by staying in bed so the ultrasound monitor would work, causing compression on the umbilical cord -- or by an impatient doctor with a tee time, or by Pitocin-induced contractions) Two out of three...
Even though I'm a man and a medical student, I totally agree that home births are a viable option, but not for everyone. Good prenatal care and screening will ID most women with high blood pressure or other problems such as breech positioning or cephalopelvic insufficiency (too small of a birth canal for baby's head), etc, etc.
But there are all kinds of problems with the actual birth in which the baby could get a part of it's body hung up on the pelvic bone, or the cord could be compressed by the contractions and cause problems for the baby, an on and on. This is to say nothing of the fact that natural births don't always happen on time, and past 40 weeks, the problems get even more tricky. And if your baby is born significantly early, you REALLY need a hospital neonatology team to help keep him alive---trying a home birth would not be cool here.
The bottom line---yup, home birthing for some women is the best, but for many others a skilled OB/GYN with years of clinical experience is needed. But one thing's for sure, it's a shame that the option for home birthing is being taken away from NY Moms.
And one of the highest risk factors is the emphasis on doctor's convenience, whether time (he doesn't want to wait around for nature to work on its own) or money (he's scared of getting sued). If I were pregnant now, there's no fucking WAY you'd get me into a hospital.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
I live in the UK and unless you are high risk, you see an OB once in your pregnancy, twice if you go over due. There is no reason to have an OB around in a normal pregnancy. Both of my children were midwife only births and the second who is 9 months old was born at home, healthy as an ox, and I was feeling great. No hookups to monitors, no needing a catheter to pee from being on an epi, and an easy labour and delivery plus I healed quickly. I'd never have a kid in hospital again unless it was absoluteley medically necessary.
of doctors to perform unnecessary procedures is disturbing.
It's not so much profit as it is saving their asses from getting sued. I agree with Number_6 above, home birth is fine, but there's gotta be good prenatal care and risk factors should be minimized. Our baby was born in the hospital by Certified Nurse Midwives... you kind of get the best of both worlds.
CIA World Factbook has the infant mortality rate of the Netherlands as 4.73 / 1000, compared to the Us with 6.22 / 1000.
That's interesting, given that they have a home birth rate of 30%, to our less than 1%.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-...
The Netherlands also has universal healthcare, you can't really compare the two. A lot of US infant mortality comes from high-risk populations with no prenatal care... you don't really have much of them in the Netherlands.
Home birth still has better mortality and morbidity rates.
And that's a standard ACOG retort. Whenever you control the variables, the American way of birth still looks bad.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
I think you stepped into a big one with controlling the confounding variables part. The average outcome makes little sense to make your decisions based upon because each person's choice is conditional. This is like deciding to fly instead of drive because the average pilot is safer than the average driver, when you yourself are an extremely safe driver. You cannot control for all confounding variables and possibly say that the ideal hospital environment is worse than the ideal home environment in regards to birth outcomes.
Because women who are at risk or encounter issues...go to hospitals. You are not making a fair comparison. Please see through your own personal biases.
Look up ecological fallacy or ecological correlation to see why this type of analysis is spurious.
Or fit vs. fat. One cannot compare American outcomes with those of other nations because of "American Exceptionalism". That is, we are exceptionally fat and out of shape. The average American female is five foot four inches and weighs and extraordinary 165 pounds. We are a population that considers walking five miles to be a feat of athleticism.
Go to Yosemite Valley and walk up to Nevada Falls: after you get halfway to Vernal Falls listen to the conversations around you. There will be very few Americans walking with you. Then return to the valley floor and listen to the people who are indulging in the fast food: all Americans.
Unhealthy people have a greater likelihood of bad outcomes during childbirth. Americans are unhealthy. Whether the various home-birth options are superior to the various hospital options is not going to be determined by comparing Europeans to Americans.
(Yes, I am male. My one child was born with the assistance of a RN midwife in a hospital. I guess we kind of compromised.)
This is one part of the ecological fallacy (which doesn't have anything to do with ecology by the way). The previous analysis is not sensitive to the following situation: the non-American group has much higher health overall AND people who give birth in hospitals there have better outcomes as well.
Um, yeah, as referenced above, I had three births in a hospital. During pregnancy, I exercised by swimming and doing modified pregnancy exercises...and I still received Pitocin for births that apparently weren't moving fast enough for the doctor.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
Again, please C&L consider adopting a science section. For both laughing at the silly right wingers and their anti-science silliness, and for keeping liberals honest when it comes to science. Please, future mothers, and women who are already mothers, stay safe and follow your doctors orders.
Yep, we can't say rightie tighties are crazy for denying global warming while somewhat discounting the power of modern medicine as developed by the same scientific method. I wonder how many here don't believe in vaccination?
Many liberals seem to use the 'naturalistic fallacy' when arguing against the advances of modern science. In quotes because it can have several meanings. In this context it means asserting that something 'natural' is inherently good or better than something 'unnatural'. From GMO's to vaccines to now hospital births. I will remind everyone that nature is uncaring and cruel. That 'in nature' women get raped, humans die of infection and malnutrition, and childbirth is extremely dangerous.
Um, yeah...weren't you the same one that accused Ben Roethlisburger's rape victim of being one of many "opportunistic bitches" that cry rape to profit off of the man?
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
yea my words exactly? please, i expect better from my fellow liberals.../feels shame
Here you go:
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 08:25 — debaser71
who?
Anyway, innocent until proven guilty. Because sometimes women are vindictive bitches who make bad decisions.
»Sports Creep
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
Look to my other posts for context. Anyway I stand by that comment. Duke lacrosse and Kobe Bryant come to mind. And, of course every american should be absolutely for the notion of innocence until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Anyway you are now on my list of /ignored people.
Correction: I should have said *alleged* rape victim.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
Is also what I said, and realize this is in response to many many posts about Ben being a rapist and such...totally convicting him before there's a trial or the information is out. So get off your high horse. And stop lying about me.
And was Ben Rothleschmug ever convicted of this alleged crime? Were criminal charges pressed?
I am completely incapable of making any judgement call on anything.
And I am being so phenomenally polite.
Are you a medical expert? Why is it that liberals demand (for example) for conservatives to listen to the experts regarding global warming and then go around ignoring experts in regards to (again, for example) vaccines and home birthing? A little self introspection and critical thinking is called for.
I'm going to second this. I'm not against home births, but there is a tendency in a lot of left-leaning people to be anti-medicine and anti-hospital and (with respect to health) see the world just as black and white as the right-wingers. What's worse is that this leads to lots of good science and medicine be ignored (or dismissed) and really bad science and medicine promoted (just look at anything about medicine in the Huffington Post).
This is a case from Illinois that was interesting. We knew the family - our kids went to school together and the father played bridge with my husband.
The state decided to make an example of this woman and use her to try to outlaw midwifery in Illinois - and they pretty much succeeded. Now you have to be a registered nurse. But they really hammered her, and she and her lovely family have since moved to California where she can practice once again. The whole protracted episode was hell for the family - the prosecutors were nothing short of vicious - and now Illinois is stuck with the BS outcome.
*
First, let me say that I think families should have a choice in this matter. But...
The implicit choices in this argument seem to be crummy doctor and crummy hospital versus great midwife in a clean environment. I would argue that a good doctor and hospital is a superior choice based upon the odds. Why? Modern medicine. If anything does go wrong, guess where the best place to be is? A good hospital. We need to keep in mind the number of children and women saved by medical intervention, and how this number could be increased and the negatives associated with the hospital environment decreased. It is disappointing that someone disagreed with this post and all of a sudden people went digging into his past posts for material. Will this be done to me? Natural, homey, organic, and other such things do not automatically make something better.
Nor do they automatically make something worse.
I'll take natural methods any day of the week. Nature doesn't make a profit off of me by patenting its wares.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
yeah, but the people who sell natural, organic, herbal stuff make billions and billions of dollars off of you.
Billions and billions? Are we exaggerating just a little there? I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I'm willing to wager that the people who sell natural stuff don't come anywhere near the $$$ that Big Pharma makes.
And again, NATURE doesn't make a profit off of me. Nature itself is not profit-driven...corporations are.
If I choose to, I can walk out the door and find natural remedies for free....I don't need to buy anything.
However, if I choose, I can purchase those same remedies from a natural supplement manufacturer. I don't begrudge them making a small profit if they go to the bother of processing those natural elements for purchase.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
People will take steps to protect themselves and their children. If there was health care that was motivated by actual concern for the health and well-being of real people, this would not be happening. Progressives and liberals do not sit around clutching their pearls. They find alternatives. Catch up, concern trolls.
It's very convenient to dismiss people with internet jargon like 'concern troll'.
Obviously, a choice should be available for those with a bad hospital/doctor to look forward to (with little choice) and no complications to expect. However, it is logical to push toward the best possible situation. That would be a great hospital and great doctor for all births. It is inconceivable to me that anyone can argue that the best midwife in the best house has a statistically better chance of a good outcome (let's average over all possibilities in this choice set) than giving birth in a Mayo clinic type environment. The writing does not recognize this logic and so has come under fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG-2r5XGs5M&fe...
Lisa responds.
My first was born in the hospital when I was in nursing school. I didn't consider a home birth because I had been taught that home births only happened "by accident".
I had two at home and I delivered them with the help of girlfriends and one the midwife was there. I had prenatal care for all four, I was healthy and I knew that their heads were down and that the odds were very good that all would go well.
As a Registered Nurse I would never suggest anyone who is at risk should have home birth. My daughter-in-law was pre-eclamptic with my new grand-daughter and had an ICU birthing experience at Santa Monica Hospital with top nurses and doctors in attendance. Even with mom on a pitocin drip, a magnesium drip, an internal monitor, a foley catheter, every 15 minute vitals, a pulse oximeter and oxygen on constantly, my son and I were allowed to be there for the delivery and all went well.
Under the circumstances they gave my son and my daughter-in-law the homiest of home birth style experiences even though intensive monitoring/interventions were necessary.
Ideally I would like to see every mother, father and baby have excellent pre-natal care and the option to have a home birth type experience with all the bells and whistles nearby if necessary. The best of both worlds.
Personally, if I had it to do again, I would opt for an underwater birth. Laboring in a deep warm tub is incredible, as the labor contractions are practically pain-free.
The United States has a long way to go in order to afford everyone concerned the optimum in a birthing experience that is loving, natural, safe and atraumatic.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
That sounds wonderful.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
I'm an MD although not an obgyn. I do believe the system we have in the US could be vastly improved in many ways. We could certainly learn a lot from our European colleagues by providing quality health care for much less than it costs in the states, and less invasively. However, the assertion that many obgyn docs have never witnessed a normal, low risk delivery is absurd. These kind of exaggerations undercut your argument/story.
You will be declared a troll.
yeah, it seems like saying anything against alternative medicine or in favor of modern medicine will lead to many on the left immediately calling you a sell-out or bought by phrma, just like saying anything against guns, abortion, god will lead to right-wingers calling you a traitor. It's a little disappointing, because unbiased facts are there (and there's plenty of them), but because everyone has already made up their minds, they don't care.
Could it be the statement that a lack of home births is a crisis?
"The crisis of home birth in New York city is an extreme example of a pattern found across America."
and comments like this:
Susie please lay off the science issues and let someone with less bias and more understanding post on these topics.
Why should she back off? Why in this particular instance should she not come out with her opinion?
Why?
People's strength of conviction should be in accordance with the facts. Her facts are weak but her convictions strong, so strong that she preemptively blasts all others who might criticize her. Her facts are wrong and her tone bombastic.
My sister-in-law worked with a midwife and had both her babies at home in the bathtub. The second one, in fact, was so fast and so relatively easy that my brother ended up delivering the baby since the midwife hadn't arrived at their home yet. Both my nieces are healthy and happy little girls and my sister-in-law says she wouldn't have wanted to do it any other way. They live in London, by the way.
Women's Rights...pffttt.
Next thing ya'll will want is some inane law saying husbands can't rape their wives.
Fucking Liberals.
Come on. Let's compare a nasty beanbag chair in some expectant Mom's bedroom to the super clean and tidy room in a hospital.
Let's do it. Case closed.
I gave birth to my daughter at home 41 years ago. I would not dream of giving a birth in a hospital unless it was a complicated pregnancy. At the time we used the Chicago Maternity Society which no longer exists. I believe the state of Illinois is opposed to birthing centers as well although many women want them.
There is not enough room nor time for my inventory of how many of my friends & family including me who have been killed, almost killed, disabled, or treated savagely at hospitals.
I have had a living will since the Teri Schiavo case first began. I refuse to have quality of my life compromised. I refuse to be tortured in a hospital when I have had lots of fun already. If this is my last breath I have no regrets. No one has control over personal decisions about your health except you.
and I know lots and lots of people who have been cured, saved, given a second life and treated like family members in hospitals. Biased personal anecdotes don't warrant generalizing to an entire institution. It's like saying I know of a climate scientist who made up facts, therefore global warming isn't real.
I do what I want as I am entitled to do. My experiences are not biased. They happened therefore they are facts. In kind you are free to do as you wish.
No one is telling you what to do, but you can't use what you say as an argument against all doctors and hospitals.
Family Docs do Obstetrics and many take extra fellowships to do C-sections. Please check your facts. I did
You are dissing a viable option when desperate homebirthers need less moody comments and more facts
I'm going to start my alternative home health care program. Home dentistry. Home surgery. Home pelvic exams. They are all natural, drug free, and based on techniques our ancestors used since the down of time.
If you want, I will extract your tooth witha forked branch while you recline on your bean bag, comfortably at home.
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