Sebelius: Not Only Is It Not Single Payer, We're Going To Make Sure It Never Is
You know, I'm not a Democrat to protect our politicians. As far as I'm concerned, they're little more than tools to execute the policies I support. But I know not everyone else feels that way, and that's why it really makes me furious to see them use people by promising one thing and delivering something completely different - you know, like this expensive mishmosh of a healthcare "reform."
The Kathleen Sebeliuses of the world, those timid souls who can be found out in the middle of the road hugging the center line with the rest of the road kill, can go take a flying leap if they think we're going to support backward thinking like this:
As lawmakers on Capitol Hill hammer out legislation to overhaul the nation's health care system this year, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius says that a single-payer option is not on the table.
"This is not a trick. This is not single-payer," Sebelius told Steve Inskeep. She added: "That's not what anyone is talking about — mostly because the president feels strongly, as I do, that dismantling private health coverage for the 180 million Americans that have it, discouraging more employers from coming into the marketplace, is really the bad, you know, is a bad direction to go."
[...] Republicans have also raised the specter that a public option could evolve into a single-payer health care system where funding comes from one source — usually the government. The GOP says that such a system would lead to health care rationing and long delays in treatment.
Asked if the administration's program will be drafted specifically to prevent it from evolving into a single-payer plan, Sebelius says: "I think that's very much the case, and again, if you want anybody to convince people of that, talk to the single-payer proponents who are furious that the single-payer idea is not part of the discussion."
Sebelius says such concerns are unfounded because a single-payer plan is not under consideration, and these "draconian" scenarios have muddled the conversation over the president's proposal for a public option.
If Obama does, in fact, include language to prevent the public health plan from becoming a single-payer option, we might as well kiss this Democratic majority goodbye. Because, as history shows, given the choice between a fake Republican and a real one, people will pick the real one every time!
(You can let the Secretary know how you'd feel about that. HHS - 202-619-0257.
Better still, Democracy for America, Health Care for America Now and Open Left join Stand With Dr. Dean in a project to pin down the politicians on where they stand.
Send an email asking the following four questions:
Do you support a public healthcare option as part of healthcare reform?
If so, do you support a public healthcare option that is available on day one?
Do you support a public healthcare option that is national, available everywhere, and accountable to Congress?
Do you support a public healthcare option that can bargain for rates from providers and big drug companies?
The goal is to remove all hedges and dodges. We want to know where they stand on the public option.
Add your responses to the form at Stand With Dr. Dean.
But I want single-payer.
Government or civilian, insurance companies make their money DENYING care.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
of flight...1549 or whatever...the one that went down in the Hudson...
despicable is putting it mildly.
companies pulled to their policy holders after Katrina. It is enough to make you wish there was a special circle of hell reserved just for insurance companies and their lackeys.
One of the worse offenders, State Farm, had the gall of using Katrina victims as part of their ad campaign not long ago.
I have friends in NOLA...well had friends there...they got the fuck outta there not long after Katrina.
Because, as history shows, given the choice between a fake Republican and a real women,
Huh?
What?
Where's that from?
.
It puzzled me too, Leadership.
I missed it.
Was Susie channeling Ricky?
So the private insurance companies get to cherry pick the low risk groups and the taxpayers will get all the chronically ill and the potential problems? How about this? If you have coverage when your health care problem arises then it is covered until it is cured whether or not you can still work or pay premiums. Sort of like they do for preexisting conditions and car wrecks. In the insurance industry I think they call this a tail.
To the peasants from the ruling class: "Go fuck yourselves." Nothing I can think of in American history has made the reality of class warfare clearer than single payer health care and which class both political parties serve.
Yes, it is a big, big, big, F++K YOU!! The ruling class is putting it's plans of eliminating half the world's population so that they can have even more!!!
What Rethuglican lobbyist is she screwing?
It's obvious, the only one who has our best interests in mind is Kucinich...
If the rest of these fuckin corporate whores don't start doing what's right...then maybe we should get some fuckin balls and march on DC...
I mean...WTF is it gonna take for us to stand for what's in OUR OWN best interest?
FUCK!
This country is pathetic, nobody stands up for shit anymore...unless you count the fuckin teabaggers...and they didn't even know what they were supposed to be protesting.
Useless...absolutely fuckin useless.
I'm so disgusted right now...I'm gonna have to take a break and calm the fuck down.
Oh geez man, you've been listening to this, this morning?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCCjv2OiTxE
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I'm frik'n with you, pathetic indeed.......This IS class warfare and the cerf's have been told to sit down and shut up. I have the feeling that what is growing is a bulge in the side of the middle class Mt. St. Helens. We have once again become a nation divided, and as Lincoln once said, that can not stand. I would add Bernie Sanders to Dennis Kucinich - I know of no others, that stand with "the people" - Teddy Kennedy should be in there too - boy did we get suckered. - Or I did at least.
What counter-measures are available to the monstrous reich wing spew machine??? As raisin brain tried to say once and screwed it up - Fool me once shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me.
I'm torn between getting out of Dodge and becoming an ex-pat on some Jimmy Buffet island, and standing and fighting. But how do we fight this, within the framework of legal process and constitution? And further, how do we fight these "elected officials" whom we elected as our voices, and are no more than shills and whores for the upper class twits? Its like Caddy Shack and we are caddy's
Do we find the true progressives and fight like crazy to get them in, do we leave and say the hell with it, and tell people to find me via the want adds of the Coconut Telegraph? Anyone else listen to Mike Malloy last night? Peace brothers and sisters.
see how they're pissing people off bigtime by protecting the fucking corporate fascists?
It's almost like they're TRYING to get us to revolt.
Fair enough, Bernie Sanders is added to the list as well as Kennedy.
Yeah...I'm feelin pretty suckered right now too...
I don't know what countermeasures we have available to us. Except going for broke with open revolt. And I think that would get crushed pretty damn quick.
Same here...but I can't leave my family behind to save my sorry ass.
My only option is to stand and fight.
Bigger brains than mine are needed to figure what legal weapons we have to fight this within the system...
We gotta stay on top of how our elected officials vote, what contributions they receive and from whom, and what favors they dole out in return. If it's contrary to the will of people, then there must be a recall...
We need to instill the fear of the PEOPLE into our politicians...now we're scared of them.
They need to understand, they serve at our discretion. The corporatocracy must be broken...
They'll NEVER care, as long as they get the money they need from the bribes--'donations', heheh-- of 'special interests,' and they will ALWAYS get what they need from the people who need the State to legitimize their thefts from the commons.
the question is...how do we make them do what's right for US?
Then we must stop the flow of cash then.
In the last few days, I think the Iranian People have been showing us just exactly how to do it. The washington crowd is able to live in a bubble in large part because it's been too many decades since the last time DC's streets were filled with protestors. I think the only way that the bubble is going to be pierced is to put 5 or 6 million people on the streets. Trouble is, I haven't got a clue about how to go about organizing such a thing.
We need to put the fear of the people back into the hearts and minds of these fuckin politicians!
I mean, how dare they get FREE fucking healthcare on OUR fuckin dime, while tens of millions of taxpaying Americans go without???
What in the fuckin fuck?
The Amerikan dream is dead. The ruling class is out to make US labor more 'cost effective' as in competitive with China, and the far east 'workers'/slaves.
How does one go about organizing a national protest?
Agree with you on Kucinich and everything else.
My nickname defines where I am on this issue. My Mother developed terminal cancer about 4 years ago. Everything required for her healthcare during this difficult time for our family was covered WITHOUT consideration of "pre-existing conditions", copays, 80% insurance responsibility - 20% patient responsibility, medication costs, in-home and hospice nursing costs, etc.
We did not have to wait forever for care, as some in this country's lobbyist-controlled government would have you believe. Doctor quality was not compromised, facilities were excellently equipped, etc.
I am very glad that Canada still considers me a citizen, so that should the situation arise that I need good healthcare in a crisis situation, I can go back to Canada and get it - no questions asked, and no restrictions imposed. Whether in crisis or not, my family is seriously considering a move back to Canada for retirement, for many reasons, including the healthcare we would have available to us there.
What is wrong with a country that denies the basic right of decent healthcare to ALL of its citizens? Why should only those who can afford decent healthcare be allowed to have it? Why is the US so backwards when it comes to this issue, when so many countries around the world support things such as single-payer, or government-provided healthcare? It's simply "all about the money".
Great questions to ask and great tips for concrete steps.
Did any of you ever think Obama was that progressive. I voted for him, both for the primary and of course general election, but without illusions. On healthcare, Hillary was better. Whatever. Obama will be as good as we force him to be.
At least President Obama seems to be better than McCain and healthcare.
"The Kathleen Sebeliuses of the world, those timid souls who can be found out in the middle of the road hugging the center line with the rest of the road kill" This is offensive, Susie. Your snark is ugly and misplaced.
Ms. Sebelius is living in the real world, and seeking real reform in a tremendously complex milieu. As much as I would like to see single payer HC in this country, it won't happen this year. Moreover, if SP was what the administration was pushing for, there would be absolutely zero--wake up, folks!--zero chance of passing HC reform this year, or any time soon.
We've got some true progressives working for us, damn it. Let's respect and support them.
One step at a time I guess
you mean?
And what step is that, please?
We do want the public option to, in time, transform into single-payer. At least, I sure do. The other side either wants no public option or, more insidiously, wants to throw up roadblocks that would prevent a viable public option would would prevent a public option from becoming a single-payer option. These are the more insidious opponents to real healthcare reform.
Reality is, those folks must be countered. Sometimes focusing on "reality" allows reality to bite you in the ass.
They make prophylactics in such an extra large style?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez2DXc-_jMY
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
We should not piss off the massah, the massah knows best, if we pick enough cotton and smile good enough, the massah may give us two extra crumbs tonite for dinner. I sure do hope massah is happy and we don't get beaten too bad when he gets drunk and we're trying to sing our spiritual songs of despair. Yes massah, the massah is so good, whatever you say massah!
Plain and simple.
Which "progressives" are you talking about? Dean? Jeff Merkley? Bernie Sanders? Because they're all for single-payer and they're not on board with Obama and Sebelius.
You may be living in "the real world," but your health insurance with this kind of "public option" is going to be just as rationed--if you have anything covered at the end of the day at all--as it is right now.
Bottom line: if true "reform" is impossible to make happen now, after the election we've just had and Democrats in charge of both the executive and legislative branches, with the economy in tatters and the people fully disgusted with their government--in short, with circumstances of historic proportions--it will NEVER happen. And we will have failed for refusing to try to dream bigger. What the hell kind of "real world" is that?
I can't "respect and support" a group that bails out our bankers and Wall Street firms to an unprecedented degree, then turns its back on the basic health and welfare of the general populace. Screw them.
They're no more progressive than McCain. I always get a kick out of the way those who make careers out of compromising their integrity excuse their acts by calling themselves realist or pragmatists. In the end, trying to wash themselves clean by the use of such soapy labels fails to get the stains out.
Go ahead and take your ball and go home. You can revel in your grade-school righteousness, while people of good will and good intentions go on making the best they can of a complicated world of conflicting interests. But don't kid yourself that your childish snark is anything but ridiculous.
Does it ever occur to anyone that there is no money to pay for health care reform? The reason there will be no public option or single payer system is because there is no money to pay with. Thanks to the Bush administration, deliberately I think, bankrupting the country there is little chance of anything changing soon. If I'm wrong please tell me where the money to pay for health care is going to come from.
It would come from a part of your old premium that you used to pay the gold diggers
If it's done right, and millions are able to drop their unaffordable and useless insurance premiums and go on a public plan, it will cause an economic boom.
That's what's really at stake here. The insurance industry is sucking 30% of our healthcare dollar out of our economy and providing jack shit in return. And they're not just sucking that 30% out -- they're saddling consumers with 80% copays and donut holes and all sorts of complicated schemes to keep from actually paying for anything.
If I didn't have to worry about any of that and instead just paid like 2-4% of my income for care and never a copay in sight, my financial situation would improve immediately.
And the consumer-led renaissance of the economy would begin.
Ike. Make the upper class twit - rodents who have had a free ride since Ike pay their fair share. And make corporations corporations again, not entities with the same rights (but none of the responsibilities) as you or I - sentient beings. A corporation is NOT a sentient being. Of course all of this is off the table - soooo... what IS on the table??
And yet there's billions in profits available for the theiving magpies who run the insurance industry. Next case.
Let's see how far to the right they go before they fall off of the edge of this flat world.
... we pay over twice as much as the next country in health care, and we get a return of investment in the form of a health care system that is rank in the mid 30s among the top industrialized nations (i.e. at the bottom).
It is not about whether or not we can afford a new system, but the fact that the current one not only sucks... but it is far more expensive (on a per capita basis) than any other universal/single payer system out there which provides better health care.
Under a purely business value proposition, continuing the current system is criminally stupid: we pay more for worse care. So yes, we can afford any other system... if we are able to afford the most expensive health care system in the world so far.
Yes, of course, the treasury is broke!!!! There's no $$$$$ because it has been all given away to moneypits,..................but, of course, you know as well as I do that BLOODYISRAEL WILL STILL GET IT'S 'STIPEND' gag!!!
Bullshit! Medicare/Medicaid is paid for with a 1.32% employer matched payroll tax. Universal single-payer healthcare, administered by the government could be paid for with a 5-6%, non-employer matched payroll tax. Everybody covered. Canada does it for a 6% tax. That's cheaper than health insurance premiums.
There's plenty of money. What's lacking is the will.
Not a whole lot. Obama doesn't start wars. I am really disappointed in this president. This isn't the change I voted for. I'm really hoping someone steps up and challenges him in 2012.
is intended to be a factual statement
Very disappointed.
I think it's time to blow up the whole shithouse. What a charade.
Translation: Regarding health care reform, there are only two constituencies that matter: the uneducated and suspicious right wingers who oppose any kind of progress, and the health care industrial complex. Health care for all ain't gonna happen.
The people who said there's not a dimes worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans may not have been such crackpots after all.
and not a penny for health care.
Nation States that terrorize foreign countries and peoples usually do the same to their own.
Witholding health care is an act of suppression and terror.
Never mind.
Ewe! Ess! Aye!
Stop the &^%$ frik'n assinine "wars"!!!!!!!! Talk about cha-ching down a rat hole!! To kill brown people??? My head is now catching fire and exploding! Anyone remember "Hey Hey LBJ, how many kids ya kill today???" I remember it on the diag at the U of Mich campus. ...And I remember Kent f'ing State....... So here we are, only now no one gives a shite, and only the color of those being killed has changed - yeah baby thats progress. Door number one - health care, and behind door number 2.... W-A-R umm thanks Monty, but if its all the same to you, I think I'll choose whats behind door number 1.
Susie,
Not sure what the problem is, but the democrats and Obama never campaigned for a single payer system. Go back and read what was in Obama platform.
Also, if you get a government "option" this could eventually lead to more government involvement and eventually single-payer (everything can be changed in the future and nothing is ever written in stone). They are taking a half step. Better to get something than nothing.
There is no way the U.S. could immediately transition to a single payer system. It would be too much of a shock to the system and the lobbying is too strong. If you want to complain to anyone, you should complain about all the lobbying and take it to the lobbyists. Expose them.
And once you get a public option, even if it is a partial public option, there is no way the Republicans will ever be able to take it away. It will become a sacred cow just like in Canada or England. It would be political suicide to take people's healthcare away.
Chill out... and think strategically about what is really achievable here, right now.....
This country is NOT controlled by either party. It's the corporations. We will never see a public plan, we will never be energy independent, we will never be Green. When a corporation really needs something big, they will put up a puppet to run for office and win. IE, Bush Cheney and the Big Oil and the War Machine. Are we really much better of the the likes of Iran?
is intended to be a factual statement
you "get" it better than most...
I was reeled in by Obama's great speeches. I thought maybe in my life time I'd see a real politician for the people. I don't think they exist. when they run for the very first time they really believe that they will make a difference for the people. Then they get in and find out the truth. So who do we vote for? pphhttt...no one. I'm done. Obama's not getting my vote in 2012 and neither is his opponents.
is intended to be a factual statement
They just get assassinated.
Or ridiculed into obscurity.
Like George Carlin said; "Fuck em'! Fuck em" all! I stay home on election day."
I am at the same place. Obama doesn't have the balls to take on the corporate fascists. He is NO FDR! His mania for trying to coax the psychopath's and idiots in the republican party to join him is disgusting. Are these not the same assholes who destroyed this country? Are these not the same assholes the people threw out of power in near record numbers?
Yet, he is always willing to compromise change for the good of the American people - in order to placate these GOP assholes! And why, why does he let these bluedog morons in the Senate undermine all of the progressive ideas we need? Why did he hire the same Clinton flunky republican-lites as top advisors? Didn't the people choose him instead of Hillary for a reason?
This guy never heard a disastrous republican policy that he wasn't willing to discuss or partially embrace. Yet he gives the growing liberal base the finger at every turn.
Although I still am glad he beat McInsane, I cannot and will not support someone who takes my vote completely forgranted. Unfortunately for Obama, I have talked to many, many, many people who have said the same thing. Even people who don't follow politics that closely have said things like "I thought we threw the republicans out."
Maybe now, we will finally get a good third party alternative?
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
I've said about the same things a month or so ago and got attacked for it by many people. Now many are agreeing with me. Obama's going to be a one termer.
is intended to be a factual statement
non campaign promise keepin BULLSHIT...then you're damn right, I won't vote for him again.
I think the internet is reaching enough people now that we can bypass the corporate media and elect a REAL Progressive in 2012. Give Obama something to worry about if he keeps letting the repugnants have a voice against the needs of the people.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
100 percent - spot on
to get something done because it is the right thing to do.
Billions for bailing out riverboat-gambler CEOs and banks.
Billions for weapons.
... we can invade and conquer a country in less than a month, but we can't start a reform to take better care of our own citizens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4wcNVbYOQ
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Is she a Vulcan?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I'm sure they have universal health care on Vulcan; they're too intelligent not to.
More like a Romulan...or a Cardassian.
corporate interests.... she is fully assimilated into the Borg.
lol
http://nationfullofivy.files.wordpress.com/20...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
It will be spun as the finest thing since young pussy. "thePrez", the Congress, the Press, everybody will claim it as a VICTORY!
Everybody from Obama on down will celebrate it as the BEST THING EVER!
And you will see, clearly, and unambiguously, that nobody--from Obama on down--gives a rosy red FUCK what you and I want...
Republicans keep saying it, and Democrats keep reassuring Republicans that their reforms won't do it, but does anyone ever call Republicans B.S on this and say, "Prove it! Show us the proof that this is what happens." Because it is total nonsense.
* There are two types of Republicans: millionaires and suckers.
"Mugsy's Rap Sheet": Recording history for those who seek to rewrite it.
for them to do that, and besides they are both on the same "team" good cop/bad cop sort of thing - and the beat goes on
she is defending the President's plan by affirming that the opponents of universal health care need not worry: the President's plan not only won't work it will be carefully crafted so as to never work.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
But there will be a PLAN, and "thePrez" will be joined by the Congress and the Press and the Corporats who will proclaim it the very best, mostest, biggest VICTORAY!!! for the people...
I won't be able to pay for insurance no matter what it costs. My employers don't offer it to "part time" employees. I work between 35 and 40 hours a week and every six weeks they cut my hours so that I will stay classified as part time. There is a wage freeze so we don't get a raise after our evaluation.
Every month I scrape every dime I can find to pay my rent. I guess I'm lucky to still have a job, but what about unemployment in this country reaching 11 to 13%? What will those people do?
from above....
[...] Republicans have also raised the specter that a public option could evolve into a single-payer health care system where funding comes from one source — usually the government. The GOP says that such a system would lead to health care rationing and long delays in treatment.
I'd live on the street for one month if someone would ask one of these assholes with their free government healthcare how long they have to wait to see a Dr? And since when did the words "GOP says...." or "Republicans have also raised the specter...." have any meaning? When have they been right on anything that is good for the people?
Why are the majority bowing to the minority? Why do they think they are the minority in the first place? I think they need a reminder.
We could certainly slow the aging process down if it had to work its way through Congress.
- Will Rogers
Oh, sure!
Threaten them with, what, an opponent in the Primaries?
Oh, yeah! THAT'll terrify 'em. You betcha...It has so far, right? Right?
They're always worried about the next election.
We could certainly slow the aging process down if it had to work its way through Congress.
- Will Rogers
they don't give any kind of a shit about you or me...
What exactly is single payer? I have googled, I have read, but everyone's version seems to be different. Somebody help a dullard out. Simple terms. Short words. An example would be nice.
from a single source, in the best case, the federal treasury.
No middle men. You go to the doc, the doc sends the bill to the State.
Simple.
There is no single example of a single payer system, but Canada, Great Britain, France, Japan, and other developed countries all have one.
The basic idea is there are no private insurance companies. Everyone pays taxes and the taxes fund the health coverage for everyone -- man, woman, child, sick, healthy, pre-existing conditions or not. Doctors generally do not work for the government, they simply get paid by the government, which uses the power of insuring everyone to bargain for reasonable prices with health care providers. In a real single payer system Medicare (elderly) and Medicaid (some poor) would disappear. Everyone would be in the same national pool.
Right now private insurance companies waste countless dollars on overhead -- paying exorbitant salaries to executives, buying advertising, etc. With a single payer system executives would receive generous, but not absurd salaries. There would be no need to advertise, except as a public service, because everyone would be covered.
The only way this country is ever going to provide affordable health coverage to everyone is through a single payer system. Private insurance companies are in business to make profits, not provide coverage -- many characterize that as being in business to DENY coverage, since not covering people who are sick is the easiest way to be profitable.
During the campaign Obama and Clinton both "took single payer off the table," meaning they weren't going to consider it. This was a sure sign that neither was serious about fixing our totally dysfunctional system. Obama claimed that he was going to offer a public option plan that would allow people who didn't like private insurance or who couldn't get coverage from a private insurer to buy into a government backed plan. The hope was that such a plan would negotiate prices in a way similar to Medicare,pay reasonable salaries, and cut back on advertising thus reducing prices. Since the plan would be non-profit, it could cut costs and prices further.
Now, in one of the biggest sell-outs of all time, Obama has begun to make it clear that the final public option, if there even is one, will be so weak it won't do anything to help the millions of people who have no hope of getting affordable private coverage.
Did you see the Bill Moyers program about it? If not:
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/bill-moy...
It helped me understand it much better.
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4338/singl...
And this:
*
Sixty Americans are dying every day due to lack of health insurance. (Institute of Medicine report.)
Instead of getting behind single payer, Obama and the Democrats are engaged in the what Dr. Marcia Angell, former editor-in-chief at the highly regarded New England Journal of Medicine calls "the futility of piecemeal tinkering."
Earlier this week, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that the most liberal of the Democrats' tinkering plans would cost $1 trillion over ten years and still leave 37 million Americans uninsured.
Single payer on the other hand would cost less than we are overpaying now -- and cover everyone.
Zero uninsured.
As Dr. Angell puts it -- single payer is not only the best option.
It's the only option that will both control costs and cover everyone.
Replace 1,300 insurance industry payers with one payer.
Save $400 billion a year in bloated corporate administrative and executive compensation costs.
Free choice of doctor and hospital.
Use that money to insure everyone.
No bills, no co-pays, no deductibles.
No exclusions for pre-existing conditions -- because under single payer, you are insured from the day you are born.
No bankruptcies due to medical bills.
No deaths due to lack of health insurance.
Cheaper. Simpler. More affordable.
Everybody in. Nobody out.
According to recent polls, the majority of Americans, the majority of doctors, the majority of nurses, even the majority of health economists want single payer.
That's why almost every health care town hall event I hear about is dominated by citizens speaking out for single payer.
*(From a letter sent by Ralph Nader)
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Why must progressives continually push Democrats to do the right thing just as much as they've had to push Republicans? Is that what we thought when we elected Obama and Democrats to head the government? It really isn't a stretch for some people to point out there isn't a lot of difference between the parties on many issues.
Kathleen Sibelius, why would 180 Americans with health insurance think that was bad? The coverage would be better and would cost less. And how would single payer insurance "discourage employers from coming into the marketplace"? This is unforgivable propaganda, certainly not a stand that takes the needs of Americans into account.
The only entities a single payer system would affect would be bloated arrogant health insurance providers, and it is LONG past time they learned their rightful place in American life.
insurance companies are in the business of denying claims.
bureaucrats are in the business of delaying claims.
we need a healthcare solution thats in the business of providing quality care. we need a healthcare solution thats in the business of providing healthcare to everyone who needs it, no questions asked, and rewards employees based on excellence and commitment to the patient.
I know thats not what I get from my HMO right now.
I know thats not what I get from my auto insurer right now.
right now, both of those businesses take my money and deny my treatment.
I strongly doubt I'd get much better of a solution from a government-run agency. I've worked for the State of Oregon before. I've seen long, long lines of people needing care, standing in line, waiting for a bureaucrat to drag ass and see them.
***
businesses traded on the Dow, take their annual profits and dole them out to their shareholders. so they're in the business of taking money from customers, and reducing operating expenses by denying claims.
bureaucracies are in the business of spending their *entire* annual budget. (so that they can demand the same or greater budget next year). they're in the business of maintaining a giant caseload, not resolving cases.
***
so I know it bugs you Susie but I think having two crappy organizations competing side-by-side is the best way to transition out of the crappy healthcare system we have now, and into a healthcare system thats in the business of healing patients as quickly and effectively as possible.
I really think that replacing our crappy insurance system with a crappy single-payer bureaucracy is just replacing a piece of crap with a piece of crap.
Medicare and Medicaid are the models for a single-payer system, and they are both run FAR FAR more efficiently and at lower costs than private insurance.
my girlfriend's mom gets threatened with denial of coverage every time she works. she's told she's "making too much money" to qualify.
but ask any healthcare professional to give you his/her candid opinion, and they'll tell you that quality of life factors heavily into quality of health. you want someone to have a healthy recovery from a heart attack (like my girlfriend's mom had) and you want someone to embrace wellness, then they need to decrease stress levels.
sweating about bills and living simpler doesn't decrease stress.
medicare is just as buggered as Kaiser. its just as buggered.
***
bilhelm-x below me is dead on. we can't just wave a magic wand and *POOF* have the same healthcare that France or Canada has. too many people on the client side *AND* on the administrative side ready to exploit that.
what we need is an easy transition into single-payer. what we need is to have private insurers and public insurers competing heavily, and publicly, for a few years. what we need is for both of those businesses to sling some mud on each other for a few years so that Americans finally realize just how stupid all the paperwork and the necessity to "profit" from someone's sickness, really is.
sorry d00d, medicare is *just* as buggered up as Kaiser Permanente is. its just buggered up in different areas.
Let me reiterate: Medicare and Medicaid are run more efficiently and at a lower cost than private plans. And I'm on Medicare myself, so I know of what I speak.
I'd argue that you haven't come up with anything to replace what we already have that will work and a way to pay for it. Congress's health coverage is also another single-payer model that could be adopted. Just because something is a government program doesn't mean it isn't better than a private program operating on the greed principle. I've also worked for a State government as well as the DoD, so I know about those government health insurance programs.
Everyone knows those are socialist programs! };)>
health care?
...The United States of America...when I was in the service. Some of the best medical care I have ever received, and I owe my life to that system at least 3 times over.
We can do it if we want to. We already are for certain segments of our population.
Congress gets Single payer. Why isn't it good enough for us?
*
mostly
For stating the obvious!
Every member of the House and Senate enjoys single payer FOREVER!!!!! PLUS THEIR PENSIONS!!!
Maybe the only way to get single payer is to run for Congress and win!!!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
FOR GOD'S SAKE SEBELIUS -- Do us a favor!! DISMANTLE the frickin' private health care coverage for us!
Better than Seventy percent of Americans want Single Payer!
WHY AREN'T YOU GOING TO GIVE IT TO US?
*
HIP = Health Insurance Parasites
It would upset the balance of ownership.
Sometimes the Bosses screw up and pass along something good for the folks, but you know, shit happens...
Corporations need to be torn into a thousand pieces and scattered to the wind.
(I'm stealing that line from JFK. It's the comment he made about the C.I.A. right before he headed to Dallas).
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
It took slaves a long time to be freed from slavery into separate but semi-equal and it took a long time for women to be able to vote and be separate but semi-equal and now the gays want to be separate but semi-equal. What, now you want public health care???!!!
I'm aiming for healthy and semi-equal.
*
I just love this line. And it's SO frickin' true.
*
I love it too!
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
Can we stop talking about "Public Option" already?
This is NOT what people want. We want single payer.
Public Option is NOT and never will be Single Payer.
*
...the people want. The only thing that matters is what big business wants. You don't matter. Get used to it because it will never change.
Obama and his whole team are frauds.
They are not interested in what you want. They only need you to show up every other November, buy their bullshit, and fill-in the D on your ballot.
Then, you are to STFU, go home and sit down, and let them take their bribes until the next time they need you.
You got a problem with that?
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
Everytime these Corporate Politicians open there mouth they remind the
rest of us that there is no Difference between what we Voted for and what we voted Against. This kind of shit is going to help the Democrats
loose an entire Generation of Voters.
Let me guess, the major "victory" will be that the government mandates that everybody is forced to have (aka "buy") insurance. Full coverage!
I can't wait for the debtors prisons for those who are unable to comply.
On the upside, we'll all have that famous health coverage prisoners all get...
...is, the debtor's prisons will be privately owned so it will boost the economy.
...I've decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Accordingly, I'm officially offering myself for a bribe of monstrous proportions - or smaller if need be, to the medical/insurance/pharmaceutical lobbies. All you need to do is send me a couple of million and I'll go around saying nice things about the over-priced, consumer-driven(that's a real laugh) health-care plans that I pay for now and beeatch about the government getting into the private sector that never does anything wrong like lying, cheating and stealing their collective asses off. OK, send me the money, I'm yours.
Yup, sign me up too!! Maybe Velvet Jones has a book
Classic book!
.
Send this to your congressperson, newspapers and tv stations. if they are going to argue how bad it is they should know something about it. Actually it is much better than ours.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/medi-assur/res...
is knowing that these corporate fucktards do what they do with no cause for concern, they know the people are lazy and unmotivated, and content, as long as they have their creature comforts, nothing will change.
If we stood up and showed them we aren't a bunch of lazy pussies, ah....who am I kidding. We Americans will never do anything like fight for our rights.
fucking disgusting.
We should ALL be ashamed of ourselves, we have let this country turn into something ugly and mean...
And we just sat there, stuffing our faces and watching idiotic television...
I thought the whole point of the public option was that it would expend Medicare to cover anyone who voluntarily joins. Also the lower costs would encourage businesses to drop their private coverage, forcing more people to join Medicare. once that tipping-point is reached, the private insurers go out of businesses and we get our single-payer system. That's how Ted Kennedy is selling it. It's the installation of single payer through good ol' fashioned American competition.
Obviously it won't happen because Democrats don't have the votes - because we are not pushing them enough.
Barry is a smart guy. But it has become clear that he will be progressive so long as we form a movement to push him to the left. And in 200 days, he has had one of the worst starts to any contemporary presidency because there has been no real progressive movement in this country, except for the push for marriage equality.
We need to mobilize....a march on Washington for health care in 2010 is in order.
Not only I am not voting Dem again, I am going to make sure everybody I know never does either.
F*ck these idiots, it is time to organize a viable 3rd party to actually represent liberal points of view. Maybe once she is kicked out of office Sebelius can got and earn her healthcare coverage by sucking corporate dick. Because I am not longer humored by these pieces of shit who get their healthcare paid for by US and they get to deny healthcare to US.
I'm thinking seriously about renouncing my membership...btw...the DNC has been callin me, wantin my cash moneys...until they start carrying out the will of the people, they will not get any more if my fuckin money.
The DNC can kiss my goddamn ass!
I'm with you Tyler!
Fuck the Dems!
I went independent, and I never looked back.
I worked to get Obama elected, I canvased, donated, volunteered. I still think we dodged a bullet with McCain/Palin. I understood perfectly where Obama stood and how he intends to operate, he is more interested in stabilizing the system than actual real change. As such, I don't think I am disappointed in him. I sort of get the whole "change/hope" themes were good hooks to get some of the demographics Obama needed to tip over the scale respect to the GOP. However, he is no progressive, he is not interested in a progressive agenda, and maybe to be honest... a moderate like him is exactly what we needed to at least wind down the extremism of the past few years.
That being said, I think it is a good thing we have some resemblance of stability right now. And progressives should recognize that, and start working NOW to create a viable alternative. I don't want to go through another election cycle in which the Dems can simply assume they have the progressive vote just because we have no where else to go. That is not good enough... I want to vote for what I want, not for what stinks less.
but...it seems that Obama has yet to accomplish ANY of his campaign promises.
Unless I'm forgetting one little one that squeaked by unnoticed...
I am having a hard time not feeling burned right now...I know it's early in his term, I know he has many insanely difficult problems left to him by the moron, bush.
But damn...it's like he's not even attempting to listen to the will of the people.
is there is not a "justice in the mold of Thomas and Scalia" awaiting confirmation.
I really like how Souter waited for a Dem president to step down. So much for the "no more Souters!" rally cry from the reich wing. Souter gave them a final "Fuck you"! Loved that.
... it is that as progressives, we expected Obama to enable a progressive agenda. However, the issue is that Obama is not a progressive, never was a progressive, and he seems not interested in being a progressive anytime soon. If you take him in his real context: as a moderate leaning towards the conservative side of things. He makes total sense.
Getting the actual context of a person, is half of the battle IMHO. It provides you a real framework to know where things stand, and replaces that sense of frustration with something that is less disorienting.
A lot of liberals/progressives are still in denial. That is why you seem people trying to parse Obama's actions/policies as a sort of game of chess... where he doesn't mean what he does as some people seem to hope he really is a progressive in disguise trying to "fool" the conservatives. That is pretty dumb, and in my opinion it is fueled by denial. Also, I hate the comparisons some people to Obama playing chess with us, because... in chess the pieces representing the middle and lower classes are sacrificed to defend the elite pieces.
As I said, Obama is doing exactly what he set to do: stabilize the system, and do not rock the boat. He is not interested in overturning Bush's policies, as he is interested in toning them down. Probably not the ideal solution, but far better than the alternative we had presented this election cycle with the GOP hellbent in increasing the level of reactionary policies that would have pushed finally into the abyss.
Most likely Obama will end up being a one termer. He may consider surviving 4 years an achievement, and I don't fault the guy for feeling that way. He is doing something that I consider monumentally stupid by allowing certain Bush policies to continue, he is pretty much owning them... and thus allowing the GOP the breathing room they need so that they can blame (starting in the 2010 election cycle) Bush's f*ck ups on Obama.
Then again, I never claimed the Dems were any good politically. They are dumber than a bag of rocks, and they seem to win elections not based on their own merits, but on the fact that the GOP are just too god damned evil. That is why I think we need to work on a real alternative.
well feckin said...
And yeah...I guess I'm starting to come out of the denial phase.
I really wanted to believe he was progressive.
IF anything, you've been to kind. From my perspective, he's a semi-progressive republican.
or something...
Another corporate Democrat who points to dissatisfied liberals as a sign of *success*.
We should not support people like this.
Isn't it obvious by now?
who needs Republicans?
There sure are a lot of turds spiraling round the toilet bowl.
They would much rather screw the people to keep the payments comming in from the corporations.
Here is a list of elected people taking payoffs to cheat the American people and the amounts of bribes being taken. This is just from health care and insurance.
It is mind boggling to think how much these people are taking from others!
Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $4,026,933)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $2,833,731)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $2,758,468)
And when you just go right to Big Insurance, the non-presidential candidates who got the biggest legalized bribes were the 7 senators who have been tasked with the job of killing single-payer:
Ben Nelson (DLC-NE- $1,196,799)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $1,184,113)
Joe Lieberman (DLC- CT- $1,036,302)
Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $1,035,530)
Chuck Schumer (D-NY- $981,400)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $929,207)
Chuck Grassley (R-IA- $884,724)
We need to investigate and prosecute these criminals now. Severe jail terms are in order for these criminals!
The Republicans have finally come up with a counter proposal!
Single Prayer Option
There's nothing Jesus can't fix.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U74s8nFE7No
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
This is beyond disgusting. Our elected officials are so in love with the insurance industry that we can't have anything even close to the universal health systems in more forward-thinking nations. If I get sick, I die, period. I am so fed up with the American philosophy of "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps!" The Great Experiment has become a case study of social Darwinism.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me..."
...and let me finish the shiftless bastards off!
... they love to forget the opening of the constitution which demands the promotion of the public welfare in black and white. But whatever.
We aren't going to get better health care.
This health care issue is the single most important issue facing the middle and lower class. These classes have been poorly represented in this country since I've been born. People with bad health issues mostly suffer in silence while the healthy ignore them out of fear of their own mortality. Mix the publics indifference and fear of the unknown with crooked politicians cowering before their masters and you get what we have here:
Another ineffective national health strategy designed to separate your money from your pocket, and if you manage to get good care in the process, well good for you.
Health care costs are also destroying local governments. Foreign and national corporations will swoop in with empty promises to buy assets for pennies on the dollar. Experienced and accountable public employees will be replaced by the highest compensated and lowest payed among us. The tax dollars spent will then go out of the local economy further eroding the services most of us take for granted.
The Iranians are facing guns in their quest for meaningful representation. We citizens of the fascist USA need to consider non-violent but active protest to get WHAT WE VOTED FOR from the criminal and corrupt, bought and paid for whores in Congress. If that means sit downs in streets to block traffic, surrounding federal buildings (no trespassing, "government" property) to make the point, and setting up an alternative bank to take pledges that we might have made to spineless Dems and the spineless president, then we have to do it.
I have no health insurance and cannot afford some of the medicines I need. I voted for Obama, but will not contribute/vote for him again if he rolls on this. There are many important issues that he is being a typical spineless Dem on, but this is the most important to me. And I will not accept compromise from the Dems on this. None of us should.
How about you?
Either that, or I'd like a full refund of my tax dollars so I can afford to relocate to a country that cares about its citizens as more than sheep to be fleeced.
We want single payer, and the conservatives have everyone so brainwashed that single payer is "socialized medicine." Medved was spreading false information on the airwaves just today. He had the nerve to say that people need to be "responsible" and buy their own insurance; after all, his job doesn't provide it and he spends his own dollars to buy health insurance.
The shiny new argument that's supposed to wow we simpleton single payer advocates into supporting this turkey of a health care non-plan, is the idea that you can't just go for what is theoretically the best solution, single payer, but you have to be realistic and acknowledge that we're not going to get the uninformed masses out of the rut of what they're used to in paying for health insurance. There is a "path dependency" to affairs in this imperfect world, and we have to settle for a mishmash non-plan that leaves private insurance diddling in the middle because that's what 180 million Americans are used to, and no reform will succeed if we violate their comfort zone.
Well, except that everybody knows that people, even if they are attached to their doctors, are at best wildly indifferent to their insurers, and at worst, and especially if they have any experience actually trying to get their insurer to pay a claim, would hang them from a sour apple tree if they got half a chance. Let this public option be a dollar a month cheaper than what people have now, and everybody knows the private insurance industry is dead meat. Since there doesn't seem to be any plausible way to artificially keep a public plan that won't have to spend zillions hustling new customers and denying the claims of old ones from being way more than a dollar a month cheaper than what the industry offers, we have reached the point in the public debate where the putative representatives of the people need to exclude any real public option, lest they offend unto death their employers in the industry. That public that we were told last week is so path dependent that it can't be channeled into a public plan, we're now told actually has to have a huge dam erected to keep it from flowing inexorably downhill as it seeks the Ocean of Single Payer.
Gee, I wonder what the story will be next week. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia!
I understand that transition to a national single-payer system is a tall order in the USA, probably impossible without bigger majorities in Congress to overcome all the DINOs.
But it should be possible to do it in individual states. Minnesota or Oregon, for starters. That's how we got single-payer in Canada. Saskatchewan proved it could work and the rest of the country followed suit. Doctors screamed and yelled and tried to sue the government, but the public good prevailed.
I pay $54/month for health care. No deductibles, no co-pays, no user fees, no "pre-existing conditions" that allow the denial of care, no insurance adjusters, no gatekeepers, no proof of creditworthiness when you walk into an emergency ward.
about this very subject - one normally intelligent engineer is spouting rushisms - other is trying to educate the ditto head. How can intelligent people listen to Flush Liberger??
of libertarians in the computer trade, for example.
In my experience there is somewhat of a correlation between educational level in Engineering and political views: People with BS from 3rd rate schools and college dropouts tend to favor libertarian views, mostly driven by immense inferiority complexes. On the other end people with PhDs tend to be more rational and pragmatic with a liberal bias.
I have BS
As well as BO.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I contacted my reps who have not yet taken a stand (Warner, Witman) and urged them to support Hr-676 or a public option that is government administered, is open without condition to all, has no caps on coverage and which has no exclusions due to pre-existing confditions. I also told them that if they failed to choose, support and vote for one of these options, not only would I vote against them in all future elections, but would actively support anybody who would run against them.
If the politicians think that just by calling themselves Democrats they are secure in a sinecure, they're out of their minds. I agree, they are only tools that we weild. If the tool doesn't work, trash it and find one that does. In the same light, we should keep in mind that there is nothing these corporatist prostitutes do that cannot be undone and made right once enough of them have been turned out of office. things may not look too hopeful now, but this is beginning to look more and more like a watershed moment that is turning into an opportunity to take back our government.
It may be time to organize a national demonstration in DC. Flood the streets with millions of protestors, just to remind the pols that although the corporations have the money, it is we who have the vote.
Boy was Nader prescient in 2000 when he said there wasn't a dimes worth of a difference between the Democratic pary and Republicans. Obama snuckered all of the progressives in by appearing to be something he wasn't, a real true blue progressive. I totally agree with Ed Schultz when he says if the Dems fail this time to deliver on what the people want, a third part is in order. These damned people are pathetic. We now know, without a shadow of a doubt, who owns our elected representatives, and that includes Obama, and that is the rich and powerful corporate types and the ubber wealthy. Say bye bye to the America we thought we could build under Obama, say hello to the status quo!!!
Just don't go into DailyKos with that mindset. You'll get chewed up alive. Some people to this day blame Nader for Bush's win. Just can't tell them anything different.
I agree it does look like he (Nader) was right. What else could explain this backsliding on a health issue so dear to so many americans like myself? It just stinks!
Democrats serve Capitalism. "Liberal" was ivented by the oligarchs of the Gilded Age to be "kinder" and "gentler" minions to the economic system.
What Sebelius and Obama, and nearly the rest of the Democratic party mean to say is "we're not going to shut down the economic engine of the health-insurance complex."
And I voted for him..with reservations. I was concerned he was more about his image and popularity than substance and principle; I'm unafraid it's worse than I imagined.
Comments are closed on this entry