Rick Warren apparently called in sick and canceled his appearance on This Week just moments before the show started. I've got to wonder if it was due to some of his fellow church leaders not being too happy with him for this interview he gave on Larry King Live the other night.
Rick Warren was on Larry King and says he is not against gay marriage:
Warren: You know Larry, there was a story within a story that never got told in the first place. I am not an anti-gay or anti-marriage activist. Never have been, never will be. The whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement. Never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop 8 was going--the week before the vote, somebody in my church said, "Pastor Rick, what do you think about this?" And I sent a note to my own members that said. I actually believe that marriage is really, should be defined. If that definition should be saved between a man and a woman and then all of a suddenly out of it they made me, you know something that I really wasn't. And there were actually a number of things put out.
I wrote to all my gay friends, the leaders that I knew and actually apologized to them. That never got out. There were some things said, everybody should have 10% grace when they say public statements and when I was asked a question that made it sound like I equated gay marriage with pedophilia or incest which I absolutely do not believe. And I actually announced that. All of the criticism came from people that didn't know me. Not a single criticism came from any gay leader that knows me and knows that for years we've been working together on Aids issues....
He says he's not interested in Iowa's court ruling that made gay marriage legal.
I guess he's trying to get in a mea culpa for the BeliefNet interview, which is probably the interview he's talking about here when he says he was misunderstood. It's a video interview with Warren on BeliefNet on Divorce and Gay Marriage.
He nodded his head when the host said that he supported Prop. 8, and in fact did support it over a free-speech issue, but he then said that he supported full equal rights for different lifestyles.
I'm not opposed to that as I am opposed to a redefinition of a 5000-year definition of marriage. I'm opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I'm opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I'm opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
Q: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
Warren: Oh, I do. For 5000 years marriage has been defined by every single culture and every single religion....
And the reason I supported Prop. 8 was because of a free speech issue. Because, if it had, first the court overrode the will of the people, but second is there were all kinds of threats if you, if that did not pass then any pastor could be considered doing hate speech if he shared his views that he didn't think homosexuality was the most natural way for a relationship and that would be hate speech. ...I just don't believe in the redefinition of marriage.
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Please leave in the comments all the statements that have been collected by him on this topic.
Jon Stewart talks to Bishop Gene Robinson about his experience at the Obama inauguration, his brief encounter with Pastor Rick Warren and his hopes for the advancement of gay rights in the United States.
Since much was made of these two invocations beforehand, I thought it would be useful to take a look at Rev. Rick Warren's and Rev. Joseph Lowery's respective prayers at today's inauguration ceremonies for President Obama.
First there's Warren's invocation, which you can find the transcript to here.
Warren's prayer, as these things go, was frankly pretty bland, but fine for this context. The best part:
Help us, oh God, to remember that we are Americans, united not by race, or religion, or blood, but to our commitment to freedom, and justice for all.
When we focus on ourselves, when we fight each other, when we forget you, forgive us. When we presume that our greatness and our prosperity is ours alone, forgive us. When we fail to treat our fellow human beings and all the earth with the respect that they deserve, forgive us.
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[H/t SilentPatriot]
Rev. Lowery's benediction, on the other hand, was surprisingly fiery, especially from the lips of an 87-year-old. Its wrapup was spine-tingling:
Help us then, now, Lord, to work for that day when nation shall not lift up sword against nation, when tanks will be beaten into tractors, when every man and every woman shall sit under his or her own vine and fig tree, and none shall be afraid; when justice will roll down like waters and righteousness as a mighty stream.
Lord, in the memory of all the saints who from their labors rest, and in the joy of a new beginning, we ask you to help us work for that day when black will not be asked to get back, when brown can stick around -- (laughter) -- when yellow will be mellow -- (laughter) -- when the red man can get ahead, man -- (laughter) -- and when white will embrace what is right.
Let all those who do justice and love mercy say amen.
Of course, the righty whiteys are already uptighty about this part of the prayer. (I'm betting Bill O'Reilly or Glenn Beck do something, since they lead the contingent that sees any discussion of our weaknesses and flaws as being "anti-American.")
Bruce Wilson at Talk2Action has come up with easily the most disturbing audio clip of a Rick Warren sermon I've heard yet -- and that's saying something:
On April 17, 2005, at the southern California Anaheim Angels sports stadium thirty thousand Saddleback Church members, more than ever gathered in one spot, assembled to celebrate Saddleback's 25th anniversary and listened as Rick Warren announced his vision for the next 25 years of the church: the P.E.A.C.E. Plan.
Towards the close of his nearly one hour speech, Pastor Warren asked his followers to be as committed to Jesus as the young Nazi men and women who spelled out in mass formation with their bodies the words "Hitler, we are yours," in 1939 at the Munich Stadium, were committed to the Führer of the Third Reich, a major instigator of a World War that claimed 55 million lives. Rick Warren has exhorted Christians towards Nazi-like dedication in at least several public speeches and also during a one hour video recording of a talk by Warren, explaining his P.E.A.C.E. Plan, that is currently hosted on the official P.E.A.C.E. Plan website. A version of the anecdote can also be found on page 357 of Rick Warren's 1995 book The Purpose Driven Church, which sold over one million copies.
Here's what Warren says, exactly:
What is the vision for the next 25 years ? I'll tell you what it is.
It is the global expansion of the kingdom of God.
It is the total mobilization of his church.
And the third part is the goal of a radical devotion of every believer.
Now, I choose that word 'radical' intentionally, because only radicals change the world.
Everything great done in this world is done by passionate people.
Moderate people get moderately nothing done. And moderation will never slay the global giants. . ."
At which point he launches into a recitation of the achievements of past radicals -- notably, Hitler and Mao:
"In 1939, in a stadium much like this, in Munich Germany, they packed it out with young men and women in brown shirts, for a fanatical man standing behind a podium named Adolf Hitler, the personification of evil.
And in that stadium, those in brown shirts formed with their bodies a sign that said, in the whole stadium, "Hitler, we are yours."
And they nearly took the world.
Lenin once said, "give me 100 committed, totally committed men and I'll change the world." And, he nearly did.
A few years ago, they took the sayings of Chairman Mao, in China, put them in a little red book, and a group of young people committed them to memory and put it in their minds and they took that nation, the largest nation in the world by storm because they committed to memory the sayings of the Chairman Mao.
When I hear those kinds of stories, I think 'what would happen if American Christians, if world Christians, if just the Christians in this stadium, followers of Christ, would say 'Jesus, we are yours' ?
What kind of spiritual awakening would we have ?
What kind indeed.
It probably didn't cross Warren's mind, but the examples he cites are two of the world's most classic cases of totalitarianism. The products of their regimes -- beyond millions of people dead -- included the forced regimentation of thought and no press or free-speech protections whatsoever.
If that's the kind of fervent "radicalism" he admires, then we badly need to ought to take a long look at just what his agenda really is. And so ought Barack Obama.
The boys over at Red State Update are a little confused as to the message Obama is sending with his choices of both Gene Robinson and Rick Warren to offer inaugural prayers.
PS. The Weblog Awards voting has started. In an embarrassment of riches, Crooks and Liars is competing with its own writers David Neiwert (Orcinus) and Blue Gal (Blue Gal) for Best Liberal Blog. Our own Susie Madrak (Suburban Guerrilla) is up for Best Midsize Blog, and regular C&L contributor Driftglass is up for Best Individual Blogger. You can vote once in each category every 24 hours. Open thread below...
I saw something very interesting today on MSNBC. Barnicle, filling in for Matthews on Hardball, hosted Reverend Eugene Rivers, a well respected, uncontroversial African American preacher, and Mike Rogers, strident gay activist.
Loaded for bear, Rivers came out firing, very aggressively and derisively attacking the gay community for being intolerant and asserting that Warren is a thoroughly acceptable mainstream preacher. ("This is a pseudo-controversy that's been fabricated by the anti-religious left. Fact: Rick Warren is not a divisive figure, there's not one shred of empirical, statistical data to support this unfounded
claim.") That's obviously untrue, but that's not what made me take note of the interview.
The problem was that Rogers took a very unusual tack and said that Rivers coming on the show to defend Warren shows how powerful the gay community is and that he was very happy to see Warren changing his web site just today (to hide his more outrageously homophobic content.) He characterized this as a big victory for gay rights. ("I compliment Rick Warren on seeing the error of his ways and changing his web site.") Rivers was agitated by this and seemed to be frustrated that the dialog wasn't taking the predicted path, rather sarcastically saying things like "well we're all happy now, I guess."
But the really interesting reaction came about when Rogers suggested that if Warren is to be seen as a man who builds bridges between the right and the left that he should quietly and without any kind of fanfare meet with leaders of the gay community and listen to their concerns. Rivers reacted very badly.
Go read the rest.
(From a different angle: on Warren's refusal to meet with several gay and lesbian couples (and kids) for a meal and conversation - after first agreeing to it. What a hypocrite.)
Let me put it this way: I know better than to think I'll win an argument with Michael. It's never happened, and it never will. Every conversation with Michael is dotted with his interjecting, "Can I tell you something?" and my muttering, "Like I could stop you?" He is, hands down, the most talented debater I've ever seen. (Scorpio. Naturally!)
He doesn't just answer the question, he's always ten steps ahead of his opponent. If we could only clone him, we'd never see liberals lose an argument again.
When you have questions about how upset the gay community is over the choice of Rick Warren to give the invocation at Barack Obama's inauguration, who better to ask than equally anti-gay homophobe Mike Huckabee?
Predictably, Huckabee's response is a big ol' heaping cup of "so what?":
VAN SUSTEREN: Let me jump to another topic, which you probably weren’t expecting, is that President-elect Obama has chosen Rick Warren to give the invocation and there are a lot of gay Americans very upset. What do you make of this?
HUCKABEE: Well, it’s ridiculous for people to be upset with Rick Warren. He’s one of the most influential spiritual leaders of this generation. I’ve known Rick for over 30 years. We were actually in seminary together in Ft. Worth, Texas, back in the mid-1970s. He is today what he always has been, and that’s a humble, gracious, thoughtful, very intellectual capable person. I think it’s a wonderful thing that Barack Obama reached out to him. I thought it was a tremendous expression on Barack Obama’s part. I’m proud that Rick Warren is going to do it and I think that people ought to recognize…look, that’s part of what being religious is all about. You have strong convictions and nobody is going to have a religious leader who is in agreement with everybody.
Talking about avoiding the question. No one is demanding a religious leader who is in agreement with everybody--what a strawman. But it would be nice to have -- in this post-partisan age Obama is allegedly ushering in -- to have "inclusiveness" actually mean all of us.
To understand how angry and disappointed many Democrats are that Barack Obama has invited evangelical preacher Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inaugural, imagine if a President-elect John McCain had offered this unique honor to the Rev. Al Sharpton -- or the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. I know, it's hard to picture: John McCain would never do that in a million years. Republicans respect their base even when, as in McCain's case, it doesn't really return the favor.
Only Democrats, it seems, reward their most loyal supporters -- feminists, gays, liberals, opponents of the war, members of the reality-based community -- by elbowing them aside to embrace their opponents instead.
Well, exactly. Ironically, Huckabee points out exactly why it's troubling to those that Warren has likened to pedophiles: he's one of the most influential spiritual leaders in the county...sending out a message of intolerance. But for fellow intolerant Huckabee, that's a tremendous message on the part of Barack Obama.
Rick Warren has spoken and commends Obama for taking heat from the base for "inviting someone like me" and making the choice of picking him for the invocation. Good for him. Wow, he just admitted that he's a homophobe and represents the Jerry Falwell wing of the religious right. The LGBT community is furious and rightly so.
Please Rick, do us all a favor and pull out and say he has a stomach ache or something. He knows he's against the gay community except when he serves them some water and donuts and he should thank Obama for the good will and stay home.
Gay bashing is acceptable to the traditional media since it praises Warren almost every chance it gets, but if he made similar statements about Catholics as an example, you know Bill Donohue would be screaming from the rafters.
I know Warren loves the publicity, but there are millions of people upset over this and if he is really a man of GOD, he would ease their suffering and outrage and withdraw fron the proceedings.
Obama represents every American as our President while Warren represents a faction of this country that wants to oppress the rights of a segment of this great nation.
(h/t FDL)
Here's what Obama had to say about Rick Warren:
Mr. Obama himself responded to the growing controversy when prompted by a question during a news conference today designed to announce a trio of financial regulators. The president-elect stressed that he is a "fierce advocate for equality for gay and lesbian Americans," but said it was also important for Americans to come together despite disagreements on social issues.
Mr. Obama said the inauguration would include people with a wide variety of viewpoints represented and "that's how it should be."
He also pointed out that he was invited by Warren a few years ago to speak at his church, despite his disagreement with Warren on those issues. "That dialogue is part of what my campaign has been about," he added.
The Left in this country has been tormented and assaulted for eight years under Bush, conservatives and religious-right leaders like Rick Warren. We were called traitors, America-haters, and Socialists who didn't support the troops -- everything that they called Barack Obama during his presidency run. Well, we got that too and fought as hard as we could against it.
What Rick Warren represents is something that is dark and ugly in American culture. He is given a huge platform to disparage groups of people to the media under the guise of his religious beliefs. And he is also celebrated for it. During the whole Brian Nichols/Ashley Smith hostage and murder saga back in 2005, the media gave more attention to Rick Warren's book than to the actual victims of the crime.
Segment after segment these shows paraded every minister, preacher, evangelical, and man of faith they could find to bath the segments into "how the goodness of God" or "the power of Jesus" entered into the heart of Brian Nichols by Ashley Smith’s faith and convinced Brian Nicholls to turn himself in.
The real hero that most of them are touting is the book "The Purpose Driven Life" written by Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, a megachurch south of Los Angeles. It has sold more than 21 million copies and has been near the top of best-seller lists for more than two years. Publishers Weekly says it is the best-selling hardcover non-fiction book in U.S. history.
So far there hasn’t been one segment done on the victims of Nicholls rampage. It's almost like they are an after thought to the story. The preachers throw around a blanket statement like " this is an awful tragedy" then get back to what they really want to talk about. As long as the right leaning shows can prove somehow that God had a hand in Nichols surrender, then "praise the lord" because God is the real hero in this mess. Jerry Falwell says that Nicholls must have been exposed to the lord somehow when he was a child " I don't know for sure" Why would he know? He wouldn't have bothered to look.
If I went on any of the shows to discuss the story with anyone of these TV hosts, I'll bet you a thousand bucks, not one of them could name all the people who were killed. I'm going to now again. Fulton County court reporter Julie Ann Brandau, Judge Rowland Barnes, Sheriff's Deputy Hoyt Teasley and federal agent David Wilhelm.
I understand that Obama wants to "reach out" to the other side, and that's fine in certain circumstances, but when you reach out to the other side, usually there is another hand to grab hold of. The reality that he seems oblivious to is that the Rick Warrens of the world hate Obama, and all his voters will never change because there is too much money to be made when your flock is angry. The Christian Right will always find something to be angry about and the target of that anger will be Obama and us, including the gays and lesbians who are being deprived of basic civil rights.
Bring out the accounts and ask Jerry Falwell and his crowd how much money they made on the phony "War on Christmas."
President-elect Barack Obama's swearing-in ceremony will feature big names like minister Rick Warren and legendary singer Aretha Franklin, the Congressional Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies announced Wednesday. Warren, the prominent evangelical and founder of the Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, will deliver the ceremony's invocation.
Rick Warren tries to paint himself as a moderate evangelical, but after watching his performance on Hannity and Colmes I can safely say that's he's filling the void left by Jerry Falwell.
Last night, on Fox News, Sean Hannity insisted that United States needs to "take out" Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Warren said he agreed. Hannity asked, "Am I advocating something dark, evil or something righteous?" Warren responded, "Well, actually, the Bible says that evil cannot be negotiated with. It has to just be stopped.... In fact, that is the legitimate role of government. The Bible says that God puts government on earth to punish evildoers. Not good-doers. Evildoers."
That's pretty sick stuff for a "man of God." I have no problem with religion since I grew up as a Catholic and a lot of people derive comfort from it, but watching fools like Warren on TV promote attacking another country is just too much. And I agree with Matt Duss also:
Does Warren really consider it part of his ministry to sanctify the inch-deep theologizing-cum-warmongering of thugs like Sean Hannity? If so, who else does Warren think Jesus would bomb?
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I'm pretty sure that Warren uses the word "repent" when he's headlining at his mega-church so I hope he takes the time to reflect on it and practice it.
FALWELL: I think, in his next four years in office, he is going to -- well, look at what's happening to the economy now. Look what's happening to America, what she thinks of herself today. It's so great that we have George Bush sitting there and not Al Gore.
Yes, it was so great to have George Bush and conservatism destroy this great nation, Jerry. And how can we forget this incredible warmongering tirade from another "Man of God."
Falwell: If it takes ten years, blow them all away in the name of the lord.
Jackson. That does not sound biblical to me.
Eight years ago, then Governor George W. Bush revealingly joked about his backers at the 2000 Al Smith Dinner. "This is an impressive crowd - the haves and the have-mores," Bush said, adding, "Some people call you the elites; I call you my base." With his own quip Saturday night that "$5 million" is his definition of rich," John McCain made no mistake that he is Bush's natural heir.
Now, there is nothing wrong with being happily rich and utterly detached. Nothing, that is, unless you make criticizing your political opponent as "elitist" and "out of touch" a centerpiece of your campaign. Which is why McCain beat a hasty retreat in an interview today with the Politico. (In that same interview, McCain with no sense of irony called lobbyists "birds of prey.") Without naming a number, McCain said:
"I define rich in other ways besides income. Some people are wealthy and rich in their lives and their children and their ability to educate them. Others are poor if they’re billionaires."
Of course, by any accounting, the $100 million McCains are fabulously well-off (see the gold-plated details below the fold). But John McCain's staggering detachment from the real lives of the American people can truly be measured in dollars – and sense.
For starters, McCain in April declared that there had been "great progress economically" during the Bush years. On more than one occasion, he diagnosed Americans' concerns over the dismal U.S. economy as "psychological." (Phil Gramm, McCain's close friend and adviser supposedly excommunicated over his "whiners" remarks, was back with the campaign last week.) McCain, a man who owns eight homes nationwide, in March lectured Americans facing foreclosure that they ought to be "doing what is necessary -- working a second job, skipping a vacation, and managing their budgets -- to make their payments on time." And when all else fails, McCain told the people of the economically devastated regions in Martin County, Kentucky and Youngstown, Ohio, there's always eBay.
In his defense, McCain's shocking tone-deafness may just be a matter of perspective. When you're as well off as he is, anything below a $5 million income (a figure exceeding that earned on average by the top 0.1% of Americans) seems middle class by comparison.
Why did Rick Warren lie to his audience and say McCain was in a cone of silence when he knew he clearly wasn't even at the event? I didn't know he was a stand up comedian. Did anybody understand the Maxwell Smart reference? This was a very visible and highly important forum during this presidential campaign and for him to now say the cone reference was a joke just doesn't fly. And when is it the job of the Secret Service to make sure John McCain wasn't getting any tips about Obama's appearance during Warren's forum? I'm confused. Aren't they supposed to be protecting his life? Warren says we're attacking their credibility. Huh?
It goes to the issue of credibility. Why should we believe Warren now if he lied earlier? Why wasn't McCain on time? Does the Secret Service have an answer for that? Did Warren even ask McCain that? I don't really care if he told the candidates a few questions that he might ask if he was fair to both of them, but his integrity is in question now because of his attitude over McCain. The way it's worked out---Obama should have passed on this event.
