Massachusetts Is Full Of Libs, Allows Gay Marriage - Has Lowest Divorce Rate In America
Via The New York Times:
If blue states care less about moral values, why are divorce rates so low in the bluest of the blue states? It's a question that intrigues conservatives, as much as it emboldens liberals.
As researchers have noted, the areas of the country where divorce rates are highest are also frequently the areas where many conservative Christians live.
Kentucky, Mississippi and Arkansas, for example, voted overwhelmingly for constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage. But they had three of the highest divorce rates in 2003, based on figures from the Census Bureau and the National Center for Health Statistics.
The lowest divorce rates are largely in the blue states: the Northeast and the upper Midwest. And the state with the lowest divorce rate was Massachusetts, home to
John Kerry, the Kennedys and same-sex marriage. In 2003, the rate in Massachusetts was 5.7 divorces per 1,000 married people, compared with 10.8 in Kentucky, 11.1 in Mississippi and 12.7 in Arkansas. Read more...
I.
Lowest rate of divorce among gays that are married.
Intrigues conservative? Nope. More like frustrates the hell out of them.
if you get divorced in kentucky, does that mean she's still your sister?
Curtilingus @ 2:
That too. And we are damn proud of it.
Welcome to Massachusetts, the family values state!
If you have sex with your little sister in Arkansas, does that mean you're still her uncle?
[Deleted. Off topic]
In Kentucky, Mississippi and Arkansas it takes a while before they realize their wife is their sister.
Send all those hayseed idiots to Jurassic Park. Then they can walk with the dinosaurs.
Maybe Massachusetts is correct along with all of the other "blue states". Maybe the people in Massachusetts have lower divorce rates because they focus on their own families needs instead of wondering who down the street is sleeping whom or who might or might not be gay.
So I guess banning gay marriage doesn't save marriages after all... who would've thunk?
[Deleted. Off topic]
I have to imagine that the states with the highest divorce rates are also the ones that push young people to marry before they've matured (if ever). Conversely, the lowest divorce rates probably result from a better-educated, or at least more-aware population.
Sooner or later all that willful ignorance and uncritical thinking in the red states will manifest itself in statistics like these...
I suppose if people aren't allowed to date or anything, marry only because they're expected to and then to people picked for them by family, or do it out of convenience because GOP policies have made them all dirt poor, and then pop out way more kids than they can handle because they don't believe in birth control, then the bond won't be as strong and likely to fall apart as soon as one of the couple finds a better deal.
Divorce is not the only factor of social stability that is lower in the Ole Blue than the Red, try domestic violence, premarital sex, teenage pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, drug use, the list goes on and on.
Too be serious for a minute, think of the people in your life you've met who proclaim superiority by virtue of their alleged faith. While many of them may be truly faithful, how many of them have you thought of as huge hypocrites. For example, those who talk so loudly about abortion and how it's the killing of innocent life yet have bumper stickers on their cars professing their support for George W. Bush who is responsible for the deaths of how many innocent Iraqis and never thought twice about executing anyone while Governor of Texas; those who are so ardent in their faith because of their belief that Jesus Christ is their personal savior but seemingly have no Christ-like compassion for the poor, choosing instead to believe that poor people choose to be poor and don't deserve compassion; and those who preach about morality yet cheat on their husbands and wives, engage in acts that they claim to find abhorrent, and buy more pornography than anyone else*.
Is it any wonder that the divorce rates in Red States is highest?
*I am not passing judgment on any activity between consenting adults such as adultery, homosexuality, or pornography (in fact I support at least 2 out of those 3 myself) but those in Red States shout loudly about these things as often as they can.
(Big sigh!!!!!) If only MA weren't so damn expensive to live in, I would still be there, amongst my fellow libs.
Divorce rates are numbers, you're talking reality again. The modern GOPer agenda does not depend on any "real" or "provable" version of reality. The world works the way they say it does. I've actually heard TV preachers say "Gays are causing abortions", got that folks.
Remember:
1. Bush is the first Christian President.
2. Bush was appointed by God
3. We're winning in Iraq
4. Iraq attacked us on 9/11
5. All the problems in America are due to Gays.
6. If you missed #5, then all the problems in America are due to immigrants.
7. Guns only hurt bad people.
8. We already won in Afghanistan, but i am not sure why we ever went there.
9. The earth is really not that old, and my great great uncle had a TRex as a pet.
http://www.fuckthesouth.com/
greatest rant ever.
Also the non-religious/atheists have the lowest divorce rate. Not surprising is that Atheists tend to be in the more liberal areas of the nation. In some Southern states the government uses taxpayer money to finance church run marriage programs to encourage religion as a part of a successful marriage.
Go where the studies say. Give up your religion, give up your conservatism and you'll have a longer marriage. Probably the entire fundamentalist idea that the woman is the servant/property of the man doesn't help in marriages either.
What? Poor people are more inclined to be religious and have marital problems? You don't say? Really?
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0999/cotton.html
The devils fingers.
Of course it intrigues them: They're retarded.
So...how is it that comments suggesting everyone in the south is a hayseed having sex with family members aren't worthy of deletion?
Liberal thought springs, first, from an intellectual foundation that includes recognition of our common humanity. From this, we then develop a real sense of connectedness that drives programs like public eduction, etc all are rooted in the concept of the common good. In a very real sense, liberal thought, defines and allows the existence of a nation. It is this process that allows us to also be aware of the bonds of family and the ability to overcome adversity, to breathe life into the phrase "until death do us part". Illness, aging, the normal wear and tear of life cannot easily overcome these bonds. Thus we see Hillary able to forgive her husband for his unfaithfulness and this act of foregiveness can result in a stronger marriage.
Contrast this with Newt Gingrich, who delivered divorce papers to his wife as she recovered from cancer surgery in the hospital.
Dworkin @ 16:
I don't find those stats hard to believe because those in the blue states have probably seen, delt with, or experienced many of those same issues at some point in their lives. I know I have. In other words, they have or tried to learn from them and are able to avoid most of those pitfalls. Ultra conservatives may try to mold or force their family into what they see as perfect but at some point rebellion, frustration and the like will come out from those family members and when it does it more than likely will manifest itself into what you noted above.
Not to dismiss the salient point, but the northeast also has a much higher population per capita of Catholics then the south. Just hate to see the argument sullied by a Hawthorn Effect.
see idiocracy
The divorce rate is also lower in that evil country of France.
US 49%
France 43%
The underlying BS is in the first statement: "If blue states care less about moral values..."
The issue regarding values isn't who has them and who doesn't. The issue is blue state'ers don't believe their values shouldn't be enforced on other people, and red state'ers who feel their values should be the law of the land for everyone whether you ascribe to their beliefs/values or not
It makes me sick to see this blatantly false, right-wing propaganda be used in the MSM. I mean when the Times makes that statement, what factual reporting are they relying on to say blue states care less about morals? Spineless assholes
I think that they kind of missed something in the study, tolerance. So many of the heavy hitting religious nuts preach intolerance so much that it is no wonder it results in higher divorce rates. So much of the so-called mainstream religion in this country preaches intolerance of others and thier views. How does this translate into marital relations? If you get in the habit of viewing everything as intolerable, how can you live with anyone but yourself.
@ Scott
Ya but its a slippery slope, I mean Iran has .69% divorce rate (as far as I can google)
[Deleted. Off topic]
The bible belters get divorced at record rates. Conservatism is a failure on every level
This is an easy one. The reason there are more marriages that are staying stable in blue states and especially Massachusetts has to do with the fact that marriages last longer and are more stable when the marriages are: 1) more open and tolerant, 2) more sexually liberal and adventurous, 3) financially more stable and based upon more efficient, scientific principles of wealth accumulation and maintenance, and 4) less based on forced adherance to abstract values. My take on social conservatives is that they are trying to overcompensate for some perceived lacking or negativity in their lives (or the lives of their community) by ascribing blame to "social ills" and attacking the problem with forced submission to a set standard of religious/moral values. Often, the inconsistencies and "rough edges" of this forced adhesion to these values begins to corrode the foundations of a marriage (trust, tolerance, stability, freedom, happiness, nurturing, etc). I've always said it: liberals have on the whole, better sex, better marriages, better businesses, better resources, better education, and a better life because they have a more tolerant, open-minded, open-to-criticism outlook on life which allows them to pick and choose among new tactics, strategies, and ways of living that continually improve on their old ways. If you're not tolerant, if you're not liberal, if you're not open-minded, you're destined to crumble with the irrelevancy of your ideas.
I'm not surprised. Would you want to stay married to a Christian conservative?
Makes you wonder though when "personal responsibility" conservatives are going to quit blaming gays and lee-bruls for their own failed relationships. Any day now they will start blaming the terrorists and Islamofascists for their failed marriages.
I say lets hit back at the red staters, I propose introducing a constitutional amendment to ban marrying your blood kin!
The reason why the divorce rate is so high in the southern states is because southern men expect their wives to be totally subservient slaves. The moment a southern wife “steps out of line” she gets a beating. After a dozen or so beatings, she finally wises up and gets a divorce.
The reason divorce rates are so low in blue states is because when men marry in blue states, they are looking for a lifetime companion that is their equal, who is smart and able to converse.
Jamie Foxer @ 37:
Jamie - Countering a reactionary conservative with logic and reason will make their heads explode.
BaScOmBe @ 35:
it referred to something on this thread, so how was it off topic?
JB @ 17:
Right on JB,
The problem to me is that the more rigid your beliefs are [or the group pressure to have these beliefs] the harder it is to stay "perfect." Then when you cheat and a bolt of lightning doesn't hit you, you continue cheat, while having your guilt build up. Your best bet then is to find scapegoats so you can relieve your sins. Just check out the high number of fundamentalist ministers and catholic priests who have been in the news [as sinners] over the years. Of course they just seek and expect forgiveness!
OxyCon @ 40:
couldn't be put any better. it thoroughly explains the acceptance of an abusive, lying leader whose primary speech is some variant of "what do you believe, me or your lying eyes?"
KansasCityFaGt @ 20:
One of Several!
BaScOmBe @ 42:
Happened to me the other day too. Never got an explanation or an apology.
The reason the divorce rate in Massachusetts is lower is:
A) More people living in sin
or
B) Mitt Romney's moral leadership
Duh! Isn't it obfuscated?
I am happily married for 14 years and when I try to pinpoint the reason, I come up with the concept of compromise. Sufice it to say that consevatives don't embrace compromise in my expirience.
This thread needs more jokes about incest.
KansasCityFaGt @ 48:
Incest is best. Keep it in the family.
Not to rain on anyone's parade but...
The reason MA has the lowest divorce rate is: if you are father, in this State (yeah, I live here) and you decide to get divorced you will be thoroughly, legally sodomized.
Most fathers try to avoid it like the plague. I am also gonna' guess that a lot of mothers try to avoid it because no one can raise a child on a single income in this cesspool.
Pax, Steve
Conservatives divorce more frequently because they are so nasty they can't stand each other.
There are a couple of ways to look at this. One is that, buried in the stats, there may be information about how many people in blue states live together/have a sexual relationship but NEVER get married whereas their counterparts in the red states WOULD, if they are attracted to each other, get married because of religious or societal expectations. The ones in the blue states never get divorced if things don't work out because they were never married in the first place but their brethren/sisters in red states DO divorce when things don't work out. In that way, it's like comparing apples and oranges in terms of what constitutes a "couple:" the first set has fewer couples that actually commit to a marriage and the other has more, thus the divorce rate would be higher in the latter set.
The other way to look at it is that marriage is far more important in terms of actual love to blue staters, regardless of orientation whereas it's just "going with the flow" for heterosexual red staters.
sox05 @ 47:
Good point!
Having been married to a Conservative Christian once myself, I can sympathize with their high divorce rate. I am surprised that it isn't much higher. When one, or even worse both, in the marriage consider their opinion to be the will of God, it is rather hard to compromise on anything.
Steve @ 50:
Illogical, Captain. Does not compute.
I assume you are referring to child support when you say "thoroughly, legally sodomized."
This is an argument against procreation, not marriage, and all states "sodomize" non-custodial parents (married or unmarried) by making them support their spawn.
Your argument would explain why there would be an incentive for men (non-custodial parents) to avoid divorce, but, if true, it would provide the women with an incentive for getting a divorce.
Of course, I guess you could argue that the monetary incentive for staying married would motivate men to keep their wives happy by being faithful, caring, sober, non-abusive, etc.
There is an old saying: "It's cheaper to keep her."
Scott @ 31:
Maybe it's because Europeans are more open to the idea of having a mistress on the side, thus sparing the need for an all-or-nothing marriage commitment which would result in a divorce.
Steve @ 50:
That was frankly a stupid excuse and sad attempt to make the story about you. Not all people who are married and divorce have children therefore your "rain" has little impact. Ask a divorced father in any state and they will think that they are paying too much. It is unlikely that people resist divorce due to cost factors. I doubt if many are able to calculate the cost factor prior to divorcing. That sort of comes later, after a support order is issued by a court.
However, using your logic, the red states mentioned must a) be the ideal place to divorce as the father pays virtually nothing and b) be easy to raise a child on a single income.
It isn't religion. The divorce rates are lowest internationally in countries that have the highest proportion of non-believers. http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/least-religious-countries/
Jamie Foxer @ 37:
Also take into account that liberals tend to have more interests in things in life outside tagging along with their partner on every single thing (except huntin' and fishin' or cookin' and clean'). Any normal human would go crazy if they had to do everything with their husband/wife because of jealousy or other insecurities. Typical red staters loathe the idea of working out problems in a marriage unless it involves more "churchanity"; blue staters try to get to the root of problems and deal with them face on. None of that wussified "counseling" for red staters! That's fer men who don't know how to lay down the law in the household, praise Jesus!
Steve @ 50:
That's a real load you just spewed there Steve.
I live here too, and have lived in 5 other geographically disparate states in my life time.
1) You get screwed worse in CA.
2) It is more expensive in NY and CA.
3) MA is not even close to being a cesspool. TX and FL fit that bill to a tee. I know, I have lived in all of them.
I enjoyed raining on your parade.
Here is another interesting thing: you will often find more welfare recipients in the red states than in blue.
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/writing/2004/11/red_states_feed.html
ashton @ 58:
Aston - As I stated in an earlier post logic and reason will make a conservative's head explode and I think we just lost Steve.
Otay @ 62:
I think we have a consensus here. Let's just cut the red state deadweight and advance as a peoples and a nation.
Ruthless People @ 64:
Damn, I like the cut of your jib!
Ever consider a future as a public servant?
That does it then, divorces must be outlawed !!!!
guess this disproves another phony "compassionate christian"
reichwingnut neocon myth.
Obviously, and simply, it's economics. Poorer states have higher divorce rates, rich couples are more likely to stay married. It's quite disingenuous of the Times (and TPM) to pretend that there's some political or moral basis for the discrepancy in divorce rates. (Sorry I haven't read the entire article. Maybe the Times acknowledged the economic angle somewhere.)
The bible thumpers were wrong?!? Who'da thunk it?
*raises hand high*
In Kentucky, Mississippi and Arkansas the divorce rates are so high because these folks are divorcing their cousins.
expat @ 68:
Hmmmm, interesting, but I have my doubts. Look at the presidential candidates. There's loads of money in those candidate families. Some candidates have been divorced and some haven't. Some multiple divorced.
I do, however, think there's alot of marital turmoil caused by being economically disadvantaged. Some couples rise to the challenge, others pack it in. I'd say a lack of intellectual maturity and a lack of education are big components in red state divorce.
BTW, if you are a conservative Red State married couple, why is divorce an option if money is the problem? Can't faith overcome all things? That's what the bible thumpers keep saying anyway....
dadams @ 67:
Not really. Correlation is not causation. There are a lot of possible explanations. Several possibilities have been suggested by commenters above (other than the ones making bigoted comments about the south).
You libs crack me up! Your statistics are bogus! The results are skewed because of all the Southern shotgun marriages involving 13 year old 1st cousins, which are known to have problems. This is an aspect of our proud Southern Culture and you dirty hippies shouldn't snicker at it!
Christ, what hypocrites the neocons are. It shouldn't surprise anyone.
And the rate of abortions in the so-called conservative states is probably higher as well. And the porn consumption rate? Okay, the blue states probably are ahead on that one.
But you just know the rate of porn consumption in the old red states is pretty damn close.
Hypocrites.
those hypocrites in the south have no idea what they are talking about. they are sheep who think that because there are many like them (in the south), that they are right. the south is also home of the lowest literacy rates, and the worst school systems --> they elected Bush TWICE.
we should have let the south "win" the civil war.
oh yeah, and i live in MA. i have never seen a gay "couple".
thats a really interesting correlation. but you have to remember that just because blue states tend to have lower divorce rates does not mean that they have lower divorce rates because they're blue states.
I think I was able to solve the mystery in a few minutes of searching the web. They failed to take into account the differential divorce rates for the various ethnicities. According to the CDC in a 1998 report (old but still relevant enough), after a 10 year period on average 20% of Asian marriages fail, followed by 32% for whites, 34% for Hispanics, and 47% for blacks. After I saw that, it was pretty easy to guess where a large part of the difference between Massachusetts and Mississippi are coming from. The south has always had a higher black population and a lower Asian population.
Furthermore, all 3 of the southern states mentioned have much lower average incomes compared to Massachusetts. It's logical that poorer people tend to have more difficulties in their marriages. This is all socio-economic driven, not religious.
Massachusetts 2005 population: 87.89% white, 7.58% black, and 5.13% Asian (Per capita personal income in 2004 was $42,102, making it the 2nd highest in the U.S.)
Mississippi 2005 population: 61.27% white, 37.24% black, and 0.91% Asian (Per capita personal income in 2005 was $33,569, **LOWEST in the nation**)
Note: Since Hispanics are nearly identical to whites in divorce rates, they're included in the white population %'s above.
We need to be asking what Asians are doing right in their marriages and the rest of us doing wrong.
Sources:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2005/12/interracial-divorce-statistics.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_022.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts#Race.2C_ancestry.2C_and_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi#Population
Curtilingus @ 1:
I think I was able to solve the mystery in a few minutes of searching the web. They failed to take into account the differential divorce rates for the various ethnicities. According to the CDC in a 1998 report (old but still relevant enough), after a 10 year period on average 20% of Asian marriages fail, followed by 32% for whites, 34% for Hispanics, and 47% for blacks. After I saw that, it was pretty easy to guess where a large part of the difference between Massachusetts and Mississippi are coming from. The south has always had a higher black population and a lower Asian population.
Furthermore, all 3 of the southern states mentioned have much lower average incomes compared to Massachusetts. It's logical that poorer people tend to have more difficulties in their marriages. This is all socio-economic driven, not religious.
Massachusetts 2005 population: 87.89% white, 7.58% black, and 5.13% Asian (Per capita personal income in 2004 was $42,102, making it the 2nd highest in the U.S.)
Mississippi 2005 population: 61.27% white, 37.24% black, and 0.91% Asian (Per capita personal income in 2005 was $33,569, **LOWEST in the nation**)
Note: Since Hispanics are nearly identical to whites in divorce rates, they're included in the white population %'s above.
We need to be asking what Asians are doing right in their marriages and the rest of us doing wrong.
Sources:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2005/12/interracial-divorce-statistics.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_022.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts#Race.2C_ancestry.2C_and_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi#Population
Robin @ 75:
I live in Big Smoggy and I have seen more than a couple.
[deleted - offensive]
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The MA case wouldn't be a problem for an intelligent conservative... it's just that there are too few of them to figure it out.
An intelligent conservative would simply point out that divorce rates are high when marriages are under stress, and argue (absurdly, but not illogically) that the existence of gay marriage would add additional stress to those already stressed marriages in red states, while the stable marriages of wealthier MA residents can easily withstand the stresses created by allowing the gay marriage option.
As I said, this is absurd, but it would be logically consistent. You'd still have to explain how someone else's gay marriage threatened your straight marriage... which is ABSURD.... but within the context of that absurdity, the argument holds together very nicely for conservatives.
"Gay marriage is all very well for wealthy stable places with low divorce rates, but it would be a disaster for lower income places that already have high divorce rates...."
Well, they are idiots, so they won't think of it. Oops. Did I just help the enemy?
This is a statistic that has maintained its distinction over several years and is one that I have used quite frequently when debating people with drawls, who wear ballcaps in reverse and who possess no teeth except those kept in a glass overnight by the bed.
Now is a wonderful time to highlight it because one Willard Mitt Romney, the defrocked absentee fraud governor of my state and a perpetual candidate for "a race to enter", claims that "the institution of marriage has been between one man and one woman since the beginning of time," (conveniently leaving out the part about how his wacko religion codified multi-wife living until the ghastly, immoral pagans running the joint sent the Smithites an ultimatum: monogamy or jail).
Willard Mitt and his Haggardist friends would claim that the "fabric of society", already shredded by the immorality, would fall apart should people be left alone to love one another as they so choose.
So I look around my neighborhood and consider the two lesbian couples within a 5 minute walk who never hesitate to offer a kind word; the gay man just next door who looks out for our children and enjoys sharing his love of animals with them; the gay couple who bought a ramshackle duplex blight and turned it into an immaculate and attractive part of our community and who were known, until they recently moved, as friends to everyone they met, and I wonder where the hell these Haggardists get off. Are marriages falling apart around us? Hardly. What a line of bullshit.
The fabric of our community was fine, quite frankly, until the people with the bibles and ignorance moved in.
This is so wildly different than my experience that I did a little research in the domain of the conservative side and found information that corresponds more closely to what I've seen in my 70+ years. Very few of my conservative acquaintances have divorced but many of my secular acquaintances have. Here is an excerpt:
"University of Virginia sociologist Brad Wilcox has studied how religious activity impacts divorce and marital stability. He finds that evangelicals who attend church regularly divorce at a rate 35 percent lower than secular couples, after controlling for various confounding sociological factors, such as economic and educational status. Similar trends are found for active Catholics and active mainline Protestants. In contrast, nominal evangelicals, who rarely or never attend church, have higher divorce rates than secular couples." http://www.family.org/socialissues/A000000629.cfm
myiq2xu @ 79:
I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
I just happen to live in Arkansas.The Arkansas men do treat,their women like dirt.I wish i lived in Massachusetts.
And porn sells the most in the Bible Belt states...go figure.
cameron @ 76:
er, just because the statements are based on the statistics doesn't mean that the statistics are more than just numbers.
Curtis @ 77:
great breakdown!
Here is a spreadsheet consisting of various measures of quality of life, including divorce rates, murder rates, lifespan, etc:
http://sotns.blogspot.com
If you have data that will help fill in some of the blanks, or update state data for a year, please send a URL to: sotns@rtuh.com
People in blue and purple-leaning-blue states are also less likely to shoot their minister husband (TN) or drown all their children (TX)!
Robin @ 75:
It is obvious that you are not getting invited to the best parties!
as far as general divorce statistics go, what holds up consistently from region to region is that marriages formed before age 25 have the highest rate of divorce. Massachusetts has a much later age at time of first marriage, and so has a lower overall divorce rate than states with much lower average age at first marriage. My understanding is that if you compare Yankee marriages at age 28 to Dixie marriages at age 28, there is no big difference between divorce rates.
So the problem in the South has more to do with cultural expectations and mores, which lead generation after generation into foolhardy, ill-omened marriages, and work against healthy sexual relations. In short, social conservatism is a demonstrated failure.
It's been said numerous times in various ways in posts above, but I'll say it again: A culture whose religion and society de-emphasize education (rates of adult literacy, high-school and college graduates are all significantly lower in the deep South - and their hero, George Bush, openly flaunts his lack of interest in reading), that encourage subservient roles for women, and are mired in poverty can hardly be expected to have healthy relationships. And it does hinge on religion. Large, cosmopolitan southern cities, where religion has less influence and the population is better-educated, tend to score higher on all the above indicators. I was raised in a religious family and lived in a conservative state and have seen first hand the impact of narrow-minded, bigoted, misogynist religious beliefs.
What's the mystery? Massachusetts has the 2nd largest Catholic population in the US, at 47%. The states with a high Catholic population percentage are generally the same states with a low divorce rate percentage. Social and religious stigma against divorce remains prevalent among Catholics and the percentages show it.
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Low divorce rates are more than off set by the high marriage rates in red states.
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