February 29, 2008 09:33 AM
Fact-checking the White House on FISA
Tengrain presents... Chimpy McStagger in "I can hear you!"
On topic, the ACLU is fact-checking the White House on FISA and finding them, um, counter-factual. Yeah.
About Bluegal aka Fran
Executive Producer of The Professional Left Podcast. On staff at Crooks and Liars since 2007. Master's degree from Harvard. Happy wife of Driftglass. Mother of three geniuses. Obsessive knitter. Blogs at http://bgalrstate.blogspot.com. .
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Does anybody see any benefit to dragging telecom companies through expensive, long battles over Bush's mishaps? Me neither. Our problems are in Washington.
RHM's political blog
I see a benefit. The telecom communities are getting immunity for everything they've done. Not just the eavesdropping.
RHM @ 1:
You can't be serious??!! There are things called LAWS that are very important to this country. If these companies broke the law at he behest of Chimpy, everyone needs to know, and they need to be punished. Period.
The benefit is to insure that American companies follow the law and not just the orders or the President, whoever he or she may be.
Mitt @ 3:
I second that!
It’s much documented in the book by Dave Lindorff “A Case for Impeachment” that a lot of previous wire tapping that was done had nothing to do with terrorist.
Actually, a lot of corporate cooperation, Mainstream Media first line Journalist being complicit was politically motivated to compile a data base derived information for ambitions obviously for ends that had nothing to do with national security, just political security, and profiteering.
As I said before Impeachment is not good enough though I appaud Dave Lindorff for extordinary work that reveal a huge list of atrocities the Bush administration has gotten away with, indictments convictions need to done in public hearing and investigations to rid the culture of corruption. Obama or Clinton just need to start that platform and my prediction is that it could very well happen.
RHM @ 1:
The people who own the telecoms companies, also own the MSM, and also own the politicians...
Its one F*&^ing great whacked out conspiracy to destroy true democracy in America as so many have pointing out.
Unelected power brokers pulling too many strings and having near total power over everything,
and doing all they can to stay in office stealing the taxpayers money.
Its the reason the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and LAWS exist, to keep feudalism and absolute monarchism (in whatever form) at bay.
RHM @ 1:
I guess to some people being an American just doesn't mean anything. To me I am so proud of being an American that I would never want to give up the rights our forefathers fought and died for, I believe that when they built this country it was for us, the American citizen, not for King George or his criminal gang (and that included any corporation who helped him commit his crimes.)
So to answer your question, I don't give a damn about the telecoms being dragged through the courts. If I break the law I would pay the penalty, why should it be any different for a faceless corporation?
I hope we see a day when prosecution of white collar crimes - or crimes by white collar entities - becomes the mechanism by which wealth is redistributed. Everything legal and above-board. This is how we should balance our accounts on the national level. This is what frightens the elite. That's why they want to do away with "frivolous" lawsuits. There is no such thing as a frivolous lawsuit.
It's always about the money.
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 8:
maybe because the owners of the telecoms companies are the same people who own the MIC companies and also are the financial backers of most of the DC and top state politicians.
Plus remember who owns the shares and stock in the top five MSM holding groups and the big MIC companies, yes the very same politicians , their families, friends and other lackeys and hangers on.
counter-factual?
hehe.
why not?
they've been counter productive.
The democrats will cave again.
Does anybody see any benefit to dragging telecom companies through expensive, long battles over Bush's mishaps? Me neither. Our problems are in Washington.
WE LIVE IN AMERICA DAMMIT!!!
RHM @ 1:
My take on the wholesale wire tapping PRIOR to 9/11 is that they've got the dirt on everybody who disagrees with them.
If the wire tapping was never done, a certain bitch in DC would never have said: "Impeachement is off the table."
That being said, you hit the nail on the head when you said: "Our problems are in Washington." Are they ever...........
My God, Bush and evil doers have stolen two generations of wealth, why is every one just sitting there, He is laughing at us, because he decided to rape your wife and your children, the law is not working for the people. Someone call the A team.
RHM @ 1:
On the face of it, considering every poor kid the govt like to send to jail for years on end for bad judgment, I say fuck the telcos.
However it goes deeper than that. The fact is suing the telcos is the only way we're going to get the evidence on the the lawbreaking of the Bush admin since our spineless congress refuses to due its job.
Then to go deeper than that there is the question of whether the telcos broke the law at all. FISA allows the govt to demand info from the telcos without providing a warrant, as long as the govt comes up with the warrants withing 3 days. So lets say the govt demands info from the telcos, the telcos give the info as per FISA, then the govt DOESNT come up with a warrant in 3 days? It is the govt who broke the law, not the Telcos. This scenario grants the telcos far more leeway than they probably deserve. And is probably complete BS. But it must be considered.
Personally I would say hammer these greedy fuckers. However would be willing to compromise with a bill that offers the telcos immunity from criminal and civil action ONLY if they cooperate FULLY with prosecutors. That should satisfy Bush's requirements since it DOES immunize the telcos, while getting the public the info we need. Would be fun to see Bush try to justify why immunity for telcos that way isn't good enough.
Rush to War @ 15:
Someone inform the general population of the US. Make them understand and care about what happens to them in the future.
The problem is that the people on the other side of the table have five aces each.
Filthy Harry @ 16:
This makes more sense, well argued.
My political blog
RHM @ 1:
Does anybody remember that it took court determinations to bring out the untidy fact that the way the government and the cooperating telecoms were doing it circumvented existing law. It was a crime ditto-head. It will take a trial to understand the full nature of the criminal acts.
The telecoms knew they were engaged in illegal activities against the people. All crimes are crimes against the people!
They have legions of attorneys in their legal departments. We should all be so lucky to be able to say someone else made me do it and get away with it.
That's the common line of sociopaths. In my work, people suffer the consequences of breaking the law every day and there is virtually no excuse if they if fact did it.
charles @ 13:
yeah,I see some benefits.When the govt can get the telecoms to to willfully subvert our right to privacy,we're fucked.Where does it end?And all this we pay for.I pay for my telecom services,and I expect my rights to be upheld.Warrantless Wiretapping...................think about it.
But you're right,this is America.This kinda crap is not supposed to happen in America.And the telecoms know it.
Bet I know the answer to the question about who the White HOuse wiretapped. John Kerry and John Edwards during the last presidental election for sure...and all and any of the democratic members of congress. All the groups that protested the bush administration. And and all Americans who every said or were ever thought to "question" bush and his administration.
curtilingus @ 2:
Exactly. It's payment for services rendered. No surprise there. Any corporation that supports a current government in the US ALWAYS gets some kind of handout. Look at military contracts. The more of your "party" members on boards of directors, the more likely you will get government contracts. And that is just one example. Lobbying should be considered fraud and illegal.
mudshark @ 20:
I'm no conspiracy theorist Mudshark, but I do believe from reading various books from former politicians and government "workers" that this kind of stuff has gone on forever. The old excuse was to get them there communists. New one to get them there terrists. Government has been spying on their citizens for as long as I can remember. This blatant? No, but before Bush what government gave people the finger publicly? None that I know of. Even if FISA was struck down, something else would be put in its place, just silently. It's because the top 1% are scared shitless that the other 99% may wake up. Not sure why that is when you listen to people. There is no reason to be afraid. The world is too busy trying to get food and a roof over their heads to care if the government is taking away their rights. But then again, rights to what? Work your butt off to pay taxes and retire a broken human being. Nice. There HAS to be more to life.
Marge @ 21:
Marge,
Don't comments like yours and CheneyIsADick require at least a little but of supporting evidence?
So far, all I see is misguided anger. If the government is or has overstepped its bounds - hammer the government. Personally, I see nothing but wasted time and resources going after companies who were more than likely bullied/tricked into cooperating with "legal" orders. Kinda like our Senators who voted for the war "based on what they knew then".
Fire away,
RHM
RHM @ 1:
RHM, of course there are benefits. The Telecom companies are complicate to possible crimes. The only way to get Bush and his crime family is by getting Telecom to sing.
Left&Left @ 25:
like the cowardly canaries they are, would be fun to listen to esp in an election year.
Sadly with the ability to tie up our courts, I think no matter what you feel about this issue, nothing will happen til there is a new administration. However sadly I must confess, I doubt anything will happen then.
RHM @ 24:
can you imagine how many legal eagles the big telecom companies employ or can call on !!!!!???
magnitudes more in numbers and many years more experienced than the Regent grads 20 somethings that tend to work in Gov.
ConcernedCanuck @ 23:
Concerned:this is completely different than anything they've done in the past.This is on such a large scale,no one is safe.Part of me say wtf I don't care because I have nothing to worry about.But I 'm wrong when I feel that way.This is about a larger issue.The Right To Privacy. And for the most part,judges will throw out a case if the police,DA,or govt violate the Law.All they need to do is prove that a warrant is needed.What's next?..................being held with no trail?We pay our govt to uphold the Constitution and to abide by the same laws we have too.A double standard is simply not acceptable.
ferrofluid @ 26:
And I'd like to hear that music too. I just don't think it would do any good to spend time and resources on cases on how the government tricked people into doing something they thought was "technically" legal. Hammer the Bush administration and congress. Then hammer them again.
RHM
If they get this immunity, what other public sectors might he ask to help him spy on us in other ways and would he want to give them immunity too? I don't think we want to even start down that road.
trial...................(I hate it when I do that)
we're supposed to control our govt,not the other way around.
The thing that makes me constantly angry is Bush, who has LIED or been DEAD WRONG about almost everything still has the gall to demand that we blindly trust him. For just once Bush owes this country he claims to love so much a total explanation. This bullshit is screaming cover up.
pissed off patricia @ 31:
a very slippery slope of corporate immunity, started with Blackwater &co doing the Lord's bidding (Chimpys) in Iraq,
then they try to apply it to Telecom companies doing all sorts of illegal and unconstitutional things.
Once you tie in Infragard and similar domestic programs like faith based initiative ones,
we will have a theocratic fascist police state before you can say "wheres have my human rights gone?"
RHM @ 18:
Who are these prosecutors that you speak of? I hope you are not expecting some kind of prosecutions from this Justice Department are you? We are talking about a Civil action here. A process where there are no prosecutors. In the process of discovery there may be many crimes reveled but the Justice Department would have to take it from there and I don't see that happening. Why do you think all of those prosecutors were fired? A little reminder to play ball.
pissed off patricia @ 31:
More importantly, what other sectors might want immunity for anything they've done for any reason?
However I think the history of America shows we're already down that road, have been for a long time. Already companies get all the benefits of being treated as 'individuals' in the eyes of the law, but escape all the negatives by coughing up an executive or 2 whenever they need to.
We all know that this is illegal. So there's no defending it.
How about people with northstar in their cars.That can be remotely activated and your conversation can be listened to,with out you even knowing it. Ever wonder why they provide all foreign diplomats with this feature in the cars?And what about cell phones? The same applies. No, these guys took it to a whole different level.
mudshark @ 29:
Being held with no trial? Pssst, they're already doing this.
ferrofluid @ 7:
I think the reason for the US Constitution and Bill of Rights (by which we were formed as a Republic) is to keep Democracy in check. A purely democratic government would terrorize and/or destroy any minority among the governed. These documents stop the majority from voting death to the minority.
solid @ 39:
really?wow,I would a never seen that one coming...................next thing ya know,the'll go off and invade some country claiming that they have wmd's.
RHM @ 24:
The orders were not legal, and the telecoms knew it before the commission of the crime. Whadda' ya' think those teams of goddamn lawyers are for?
What foul?
Well, you can start with the fact that laws were broken. Then you can prosecute the illegal merging of corporate and governmental interests - they're supposed to be at arms length, not a conspiratory effort to break the law and gather politically useful information on free, private citizens.
Marcus Aurelius @ 42:
Again, Marge, where is the evidence of a "conspiracy effort to gather politically useful information on free, private citizens"?
I understand your other arguments, but this seems like speculation. Are you just assuming? It's okay if you are, but at least say so.
RHM
I guess to some people being an American just doesn't mean anything. To me I am so proud of being an American that I would never want to give up the rights our forefathers fought and died for, I believe that when they built this country it was for us, the American citizen, not for King George or his criminal gang (and that included any corporation who helped him commit his crimes.)
So to answer your question, I don't give a damn about the telecoms being dragged through the courts. If I break the law I would pay the penalty, why should it be any different for a faceless corporation?
Faceless corporation?
I think one of the problem is that so-called faceless corporation have the right of an individual person of US citizenship, so that the faces of the CEO and the board members will never be tried for a corporate crime, and the justice system can never throw a corporation into jail. Instead of paying the employee fair wages they waste money on trimming the gravy train of repercussion of the illegal activities.
To think about it, it is George Bush that seeks the gravy train appeasing to the corporation of their wills to control govt. His Grandfather taught him that when he barter with the Nazi during WWII.
RayC @ 36:
Whether they get prosecuted, the info could be gotten in exchange for immunity. This info could be used in civil cases. And though I don't see it happening, there is a chance that in less than a year, there will be a different justice dept that might be more friendly to prosecution.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/category/msnbc/countdownkeith-olbermann/sp... .
Now, I know this isn't hard evidence,but I don't see anyone calling KO a liar.
if the DOJ prosecutes the telecoms right now,The telecoms would get a pass.And even if they did convict them,boosh will pardon them before leaving office.
It makes more sense to wait.for a new AG.
mudshark @ 46:
Again, I don't disagree with KO but, like you said, it isn't the hard evidence that I have been patiently waiting for. The whole thing is a complete mess, but I've yet to see anything showing a conspiracy to collect political information on opponents.
RHM
I'm no conspiracy theorist Mudshark, but I do believe from reading various books from former politicians and government "workers" that this kind of stuff has gone on forever. The old excuse was to get them there communists. New one to get them there terrists. Government has been spying on their citizens for as long as I can remember. This blatant? No, but before Bush what government gave people the finger publicly? None that I know of. Even if FISA was struck down, something else would be put in its place, just silently. It's because the top 1% are scared shitless that the other 99% may wake up. Not sure why that is when you listen to people. There is no reason to be afraid. The world is too busy trying to get food and a roof over their heads to care if the government is taking away their rights. But then again, rights to what? Work your butt off to pay taxes and retire a broken human being. Nice. There HAS to be more to life.
Concerned:this is completely different than anything they've done in the past.This is on such a large scale,no one is safe.Part of me say wtf I don't care because I have nothing to worry about.But I 'm wrong when I feel that way.This is about a larger issue.The Right To Privacy. And for the most part,judges will throw out a case if the police,DA,or govt violate the Law.All they need to do is prove that a warrant is needed.What's next?..................being held with no trail?We pay our govt to uphold the Constitution and to abide by the same laws we have too.A double standard is simply not acceptable.
No, it's the same thing really. Being held with no trial? That is already happening, so I fail to see your point really. Like Bush and the other crooks say, the Constitution is just a piece of paper to be ignored when they feel like it, and they do. We have a constitution as well, but it's hardly used as an argument for anything at anytime. Sure, sometimes lawsuits look up your rights, other than that? Barely a whisper. Bush isn't the first and won't be the last to defy the "constitution"......and it's been going on forever. Governments are not accountable the same way as Joe Blow getting caught speeding. Never have been. I know a double standard is not acceptable, but it has been for a long, long time.
RHM @ 48:
I'm yet to hear or see any evidence of law breaking myself. Saying they "might" break the law doesn't mean they have or will.
RHM @ 1:
We in other countries will sue you anyways. We don't care what laws you write, you illegally tapped our internet gaming, download, news and everything. You spied on us, and we will never forgive you for it.
paranoia @ 44:
I guess to some people being an American just doesn't mean anything. To me I am so proud of being an American that I would never want to give up the rights our forefathers fought and died for, I believe that when they built this country it was for us, the American citizen, not for King George or his criminal gang (and that included any corporation who helped him commit his crimes.)
So to answer your question, I don't give a damn about the telecoms being dragged through the courts. If I break the law I would pay the penalty, why should it be any different for a faceless corporation?
Faceless corporation?
I think one of the problem is that so-called faceless corporation have the right of an individual person of US citizenship, so that the faces of the CEO and the board members will never be tried for a corporate crime, and the justice system can never throw a corporation into jail. Instead of paying the employee fair wages they waste money on trimming the gravy train of repercussion of the illegal activities.
To think about it, it is George Bush that seeks the gravy train appeasing to the corporation of their wills to control govt. His Grandfather taught him that when he barter with the Nazi during WWII.
Corporate should not have right. You make a toy that kills a kid, they put you on trial for murder.
Simple.
No protection for the corps. Ownership means responsibility and accountability.
mudshark @ 39:
On Star is like DPS in phones. As A private citizen TRY USING YOUR GPS to find your phone.
"Only authorized police and government officials can use that function" (To spy on you)
Krackonis @ 52:
My foreign friend, you can sue whomever you want. But could you explain to us how foreigners (let alone citizens) have an absolute expectation of privacy when doing something within the jurisdiction of another country?
McCain the Liar @ 13:
I just got back from a town hall meeting with Rush Holt. He said something at that meeting that pretty much proves your point. He said he feels "very pesamistic" about the way the bill will come out of committee. Which says to me when they go into conference and work out the details between the Senate bill and the House bill, they will give the telecoms just what they want. He also said a lot of his colleagues in other districts are getting beat up pretty bad over this and they are getting a lot of people calling them and telling them they are scared. If these sheeple would just look past the fear mongering of the presnitwit, maybe they wouldn't be able to get away with this. I just wish SOMEONE at one of these press conferences would challenge chimpie and ask one simple question, "Mr. President, if what you are saying is true, that what the telecom companies were doing is leagle, then please tell me why they need immunity?" Seem like a pretty reasonable question to me.
bb @ 56:
That reasoning is like asking "If you don't have anything to hide, why are you so against wire-tapping?"
Well, as a citizen, I've done nothing wrong, but I am against it for a number of civil rights reasons. In addition, the telecoms are doing exactly what every single one of us would do - protect themselves.
RHM
Questions. How do you think the police catch pedophiles online? Think it's all done with officers posing as minors? Ha! Think not. Big Brother is and always will be, watching you and listening to you.
RHM@57
Well then let the telecoms go to court like all of us would have to do if we were accused of something, and let them defend themselves there. We do have things called laws I believe.
One scenario that comes to mind with the illegal domestic spying is the probable spying - intentional or not - of political adverseries like Hillary or Obama. Enough to send a chill up my back. If guilty of wrongdoing Telcos need to be punished big time in order to prevent future abuses.
Bush says: The telecoms have done nothing illegal, that's why we should give them immunity.
27% of the population says: Uh, yup. That sounds right to me.
I think these are the same people who go to the doctor and are told they don't have a bacterial infection and say, "Can't you give me antibiotics?"
OrwellWorld Countermeasures!!!!
Enterprising Europeans have come up with a simple way to counter their ever living in an ever increasing surveillance world.
The UK has become the world's more watched population but a simple device anyone can build counters all of it.
http://dojorat.blogspot.com/2008/02/smile-...did-camera.html
It is merely wiring infrared LEDs to a battery pack. Just like your TV remote the light is outside of the normal human visual range but still within the camera's pickup range.
http://hackedgadgets.com/2008/02/21/ir-led...curity-cameras/
This one has sources for the highest output LEDs.
RHM:
You lookin' for evidence of crimes beyond illegal wiretapping? That will come with the pre-trial, evidence-gathering stage after indictment for the crimes that are obvious to the reasonable person.
I'm willing to wager political speech was recorded and saved for use in pinch or a putsch.
Marcus Aurelius @ 63:
Ah yes, of course, all the evidence will come out after we indict them...which could be done just as easily to a cheese sandwich (not my words). I imagine we'd find something on just about everybody if we'd just indict them first.
RHM
boosh likes to hold his hands together like that, because he thinks it prevents us from seeing his alcoholic shakes.
Mmm...alchololic shakes...(drool).
Funny how those in the government and their lackeys think that we shouldn't be afraid of governmental oversight are so afraid of judicial oversight.
I'm sorry,could you repeat that,I wasn't listening.
chicano2nd @ 20:
Correct. Lets just tell all criminals they are off the hook, because we have other "pressing" needs to address. Only in politics would someone make such an asinine statement.
We have nearly a year left of these criminals. Just wait to see how desperate they become in their final months to get this telecom immunity passed. Why? Because everyone of the Bush cabal know they are complicit in the highest of crimes (and constitution breaking laws), and they don't want an Atty. Gen. Edwards putting their ass in the clink once President psychopath no longer has that pardon pen. These assholes are truly worried about payback from the people, and they oughta be!
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