There is NO EXCUSE for MSM not doing their job. Their willingness to help Rebugs is blantantly obvious! Between Faux News and CNN(Faux News Lite), we get nothing but Billary and Obama's bowling score(gasp!), non important bull-shit. What about Mukasie? What about Iraq? This aren't news organizations, their trolls for big business, aka., the Republican Agenda.

How.....excellent. The more they bring it up, the worse it gets for him when 70% of America hates the war.

P.D. @ 1:

There is NO EXCUSE for MSM not doing their job. Their willingness to help Rebugs is blantantly obvious! Between Faux News and CNN(Faux News Lite), we get nothing but Billary and Obama's bowling score(gasp!), non important bull-shit. What about Mukasie? What about Iraq? This aren't news organizations, their trolls for big business, aka., the Republican Agenda.

They are big businesses. Sorry.

If only Huey Long had lived....

Nick, Do not call me a jackass. If you disagree, fine. I don't throw around personal insults and you shouldn't either.

Brian Williams has the mind of an intelligent 10 year old. Seriously. On the day that Chris Dodd stopped telecom immunity, Williams ignored the story but found time for Ann Curry bungee jumping, people being mean to pets and their new announcer (omg! omg!) Michael Douglas (!!)

Anyone have a competing estimate of what the American empire would cost in human lives over that 100 year time period?

I got one.

From 1945 onwards, since the US has supplanted the UK has the worlds primary economic and military leader, each decade has cost the world approximately 180 million lives - mostly by virtue of the US economic domination of the global apartheid economic model. So, the US shares the blame or the credit for developments in the world economy - as its central leader.

So.....

Lets do a little math.

180 x 6 (figuring 6 decades since the end of WW2) = 1080 million lives.

now, assuming that McCains vision for America - and the Neocons as well... we can add another 10 decades for a 100 year American Empire.

that is roughly 18,000 million lives.

We called the Nazi regime an evil empire, and it cost the world 60 million in World War II, and roughly 6 million in Jewish genocide.

We called the Soviet Union the Evil Empire because it killed 50 million in its reign of terror.

I guess the American economic model is in a class all by itself.

reference: David Ray Griffin, 2006, Christian Faith and 9-11 p. 176

I say - God Damn America if that is the case.

Can anybody tell that sorry ass old dude to knock off the "My friends" crap?

garcia @ 13:

Can anybody tell that sorry ass old dude to knock off the "My friends" crap?

Will do, friend. :^D
-----------------------
Well received, huh? Just like Stupor Mundi was well received by a cd of applause pumped in at the Nationals' opener?

Thanks! Foser is one of the first to hit the big point I've been working on - sure, McCain has been taken out of context, but his actual statement was a dodge from the question about withdrawal he was asked, and complete fantasyland. Our troops in Germany, South Korea and Japan aren't being attacked and killed, and they're weren't after the war, either. We're currently occupying a foreign country in the middle of a civil war, and McCain has no proposal for moving from the current violence to a peacetime occupation.

garcia, Thanks. But for the record, I'm a woman.

100 years is crazy! Ca-raaaaazy!!!

Now some great news on the "anti-war" side, the day-to-day coordinator of the Obama campaign’s working group on Iraq seems to now have a plan that only keeps 80,000 troops there through 2010. Whoo Hoo!

Uh, wah??...Wait...I thought Obama said he'd remove one brigade a month and that we'd have all our "combat brigades" out by the end of his "first sixteen months in office"?

In fact, Clinton surrogates are saying the exact same thing.

Huh. That's really odd.

wow...McCain is such a total phony. He's also dumber than a box of rocks, and will get his ass handed to him by either Clinton or Obama.

Bring on November!

L.A. Confidential @ 24:

Iraqi official: Blackwater staying on 'is bad news'

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The US State Department's renewal of Blackwater's contract to provide security in Iraq "is bad news," an adviser to Iraqi Prime ...

Maybe we should bring home our military and let Blackwater stay there and play bang bang shoot shoot.

How do Republicans always manage to totally fu*k things up all the time? These guys without a doubt have got to be the highest paid BUFFOONS in this corner of the Solar System.

I guess in Brian Williams world, being well-received by a largely black audience means that you are not shot at by a drive-by shooter, or attacked by the Bloods or Crips, or otherwise assaulted.

L.A. Confidential @ 27:

How do Republicans always manage to totally fu*k things up all the time? These guys without a doubt have got to be the highest paid BUFFOONS in this corner of the Solar System.

They do not fu*k things up. Things are going exactly as planned in their PNAC manifestos.

You would think, if they are just fu*kups, that the law of probability would come into play and We the People would have something swing our way for once. But no. The Neocons and their closeted Democratic supporters are extremely competent.

Come on. Get real and look at the truth.

What Bush and The competent Neocons have accomplished...

Iraq War 2 (and probably Gulf War 1)
The deaths of almost 1 million Iraqis and displacement of 1 million refugees
Taken Iraqi oil off the market
Kept Iraq from opening non-US dollar bourse
Stacked the Supreme Court with Neocons with a cake-walk confirmation
Escaping justice for numerous domestic and International War crimes
Escaping impeachment with collusion of key Democrats (fellow CFR members)
Enriched war machine & the Military Industrial Complex
Installed 2 Attorney Generals who would block investigations and supeaonas and ignore whistle-blowers
Gutted Habeas Corpus
Rationalized torture by redefining it
Conveniently misplaced trillions (Sept 10th, 2001) and later billions of dollars
Reestablished record breaking opium production in Afghanistan
Implemented extraordinary rendition and secret torture camps
Manipulated and Stole 2000 and 2004 elections, primed to repeat in 2008
Used hoaxed Niger Yellow-cake "evidence" with no political repercussions.
Lied about Iraqi WMD's
Lied about Jessica Lynch-Pat Tillman
Working on reigniting Russian-American Cold War (Russian bomber flights, etc)
Gutted independent officer corps
Christianization of the military
Massive expenditures for Chem-Bio, Space Weapons, Internet cybercorps
Intimidation (or willful cooperation) of Media & Business, but especially the Media
Permanent military bases in Iraq
Passed Patriot Act easily after convenient Anthrax and Manchurian-style Sniper attacks
Renewed the Patriot Act after sunset provisions
Passed Military Commissions Act
Created Massive debt to break government (and public)
Electronic surveillance and massive interconnected databases
Illegal warrantless wiretaps
First-rate mercenary force enriched and empowered
Broke Posse Comitatus precedent with Blackwater and US military domestic deployment
Blinding of America to Iranian nuclear program
Decimated New Orleans post-Katrina (dry-run for martial law)
Coopted Justice Department
Turned over key regulatory agencies to the foxes of industry (ex. Mining, Forestry)
Freed Scooter Libby with no political cost
Bankruptcy "reform"
No Child Left Behind and other Orwellian named govt initiatives
Garnered cooperation of fellow CFR and Trilateral Democrats to enable agenda
Unending blank checks from Congress
Convenient benefiting from a "New Pearl Harbor"
Pulled a sham Investigation on 9-11 over on the public for a paltry $15 million

But the piece de resistance - Conning the American public that they are incompetent.

What more do you want to qualify them as a success? Most people think they are incompetent because they are operating according to a different game-plan, or paradigm, than the normal person. Normal people wouldn't operate at this level of corruption and genuine evil. These people are expert Machiavellian psychopaths (with a strong dose of Straussian Noble Lie telling) and to attempt to associate normal behaviors to them is an exercise in futility. You absolutely CANNOT continue to believe that the administration is incompetent - they are completely competent and shocking us into accepting a fascist version of America (just like Prescott Bush and his cohorts in the financial elite and industrialists tried in the 1930s)

Machiavelli - who greatly influenced Strauss - laid out how the elites would/coopt any form of government they wanted:

He who desires or attempts to reform the government of a state, and wishes to have it accepted and capable of maintaining itself to the satisfaction of everybody, must at least retain the semblance of the old forms; so that it may seem to the people that there has been no change in the institutions, even though in fact they are entirely different from the old ones.

Machiavelli. Discourses on Livy

Democrats and Republicans - NEITHER are your friends.

McCain the Liar @ 31:

A shitty pilot who surrendered when he came under attack. Was too stupid to remember to pull back the canopy and f#%ked up his arms and shoulders when he blasted thru his canopy ejecting from his plane. He cooperated with the Vietnamese and was never tried for treason. The Vietnamese called him the "crown prince". His fellow POW's have said how McCain received special treatment and was never tortured. He returned from the war and deserted his first wife and kids.

This is the real story the MSM will never tell about John McCain.

don't forget the inordinate number of medals he was awarded for a total of 20 hours in actual combat, versus the thousands of hours endured by regular troops.

don't forget that he lost a total of 5 planes in his short career.

don't forget how he traded intelligence and information for medical care for his wounds.

don't forget his father and grandfather were Navy Admirals and in a position to influence the USS Forestal fire investigation.

Nick @ 4:

P.D. @ 1:

There is NO EXCUSE for MSM not doing their job. Their willingness to help Rebugs is blantantly obvious! Between Faux News and CNN(Faux News Lite), we get nothing but Billary and Obama's bowling score(gasp!), non important bull-shit. What about Mukasie? What about Iraq? This aren't news organizations, their trolls for big business, aka., the Republican Agenda.

Big business is a liberal agenda you jackass. Any time you try to regulate the market, you hurt corporations a little and small business owners a lot. You think it's free to stay in compliance?

You're a damned fool. Regulated markets don't harm small businesses-- they help them by preventing monopolies and putting the small businesses on more equal footing with the larger businesses. Also, big business isn't "hurt" by regulation-- it's given guidelines that they all have to stick to. If everyone is similarly regulated, no one is "hurt".

Why can't you right-wing morons think anything through?

Well said Apples.

Andy K Jong Il @ 36:

Truth B Told @ 33:

McCain the Liar @ 31:

A shitty pilot who surrendered when he came under attack. Was too stupid to remember to pull back the canopy and f#%ked up his arms and shoulders when he blasted thru his canopy ejecting from his plane. He cooperated with the Vietnamese and was never tried for treason. The Vietnamese called him the "crown prince". His fellow POW's have said how McCain received special treatment and was never tortured. He returned from the war and deserted his first wife and kids.

This is the real story the MSM will never tell about John McCain.

don't forget the inordinate number of medals he was awarded for a total of 20 hours in actual combat, versus the thousands of hours endured by regular troops.

don't forget that he lost a total of 5 planes in his short career.

don't forget how he traded intelligence and information for medical care for his wounds.

don't forget his father and grandfather were Navy Admirals and in a position to influence the USS Forestal fire investigation.

[emphasis added]

Slow down there...

I can agree with you on a lot that you said here, but another pilot, whose plane was behind McCain's on the flight deck, accidentally(?) fired a missile. If there was a cover up it was to cover someone else's ass, not McCain's.

Video here and here.

If you can smear the guy with the truth, do it. But you're not being honest with that insinuation.

Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind his A-4.

'Wet-starts', done either deliberately (the starter motor switch allowed kerosene to pool in the engine and give a wet start) or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. In McCain's case, the 'wet-start' 'cooked off' and launched the M34 Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that punctured the Skyhawk's fuel tank, knocked the M-65 1000 lb. bomb off it's 500 lb. rated mount, and touched off the explosions and massive fire.

The F-4 pilot was reportedly killed in the conflagration, along with 167 of his fellow Forrestal shipmates (including those who died later from wounds suffered).

Ok.

Nick.

The woman is right! Just because you don’t agree with some of our opinions, that’s fine and dandy. Don’t have to be rude. Just that simple.
_______________________________

Excusi.

The "100 year" statement is an acknowledgment that McCain has no exit strategy. It's also supports the concept that "if we break it, we own it". That's why Americans need to decide whether they want to spend the money and troops for the next 100 years, or exit Iraq on a timetable. Makes no sense to stay the course for a couple of years and then exit, all that will be done is to waste money and troops for those couple of years.

Not to say that there isn't other perspective, here's one from Real Time, an interview with CNN international report, Michael Ware.

McCain the Liar @ 39:

Andy K Jong Il @ 36:

Truth B Told @ 33:

McCain the Liar @ 31:

don't forget the inordinate number of medals he was awarded for a total of 20 hours in actual combat, versus the thousands of hours endured by regular troops.

don't forget that he lost a total of 5 planes in his short career.

don't forget how he traded intelligence and information for medical care for his wounds.

don't forget his father and grandfather were Navy Admirals and in a position to influence the USS Forestal fire investigation.

[emphasis added]

Slow down there...

I can agree with you on a lot that you said here, but another pilot, whose plane was behind McCain's on the flight deck, accidentally(?) fired a missile. If there was a cover up it was to cover someone else's ass, not McCain's.

Video here and here.

If you can smear the guy with the truth, do it. But you're not being honest with that insinuation.

Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind his A-4.

'Wet-starts', done either deliberately (the starter motor switch allowed kerosene to pool in the engine and give a wet start) or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. In McCain's case, the 'wet-start' 'cooked off' and launched the M34 Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that punctured the Skyhawk's fuel tank, knocked the M-65 1000 lb. bomb off it's 500 lb. rated mount, and touched off the explosions and massive fire.

The F-4 pilot was reportedly killed in the conflagration, along with 167 of his fellow Forrestal shipmates (including those who died later from wounds suffered).

Its reports like these that don't get into official reports, especially when Admiral Daddy and Grand-daddy have friends in high places, and when Admiral Daddy is reputed to have also played a role in the hurried and sloppy investigation of the USS Liberty incident (political expediency vs justice for the sailors)

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/Hughes0712.htm

McCain the Liar @ 39:

Andy K Jong Il @ 36:

Truth B Told @ 33:

McCain the Liar @ 31:

don't forget the inordinate number of medals he was awarded for a total of 20 hours in actual combat, versus the thousands of hours endured by regular troops.

don't forget that he lost a total of 5 planes in his short career.

don't forget how he traded intelligence and information for medical care for his wounds.

don't forget his father and grandfather were Navy Admirals and in a position to influence the USS Forestal fire investigation.

[emphasis added]

Slow down there...

I can agree with you on a lot that you said here, but another pilot, whose plane was behind McCain's on the flight deck, accidentally(?) fired a missile. If there was a cover up it was to cover someone else's ass, not McCain's.

Video here and here.

If you can smear the guy with the truth, do it. But you're not being honest with that insinuation.

Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind his A-4.

'Wet-starts', done either deliberately (the starter motor switch allowed kerosene to pool in the engine and give a wet start) or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. In McCain's case, the 'wet-start' 'cooked off' and launched the M34 Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that punctured the Skyhawk's fuel tank, knocked the M-65 1000 lb. bomb off it's 500 lb. rated mount, and touched off the explosions and massive fire.

The F-4 pilot was reportedly killed in the conflagration, along with 167 of his fellow Forrestal shipmates (including those who died later from wounds suffered).

Yes, I read the one comment on the vid that said exactly that (and you should really indicate that you copied and pasted that comment in whole, ya know), and I'll do some research on it.

But here's my problem with that single comment- no one else, on 9 or 10 pages of YouTube comments mentions it. There are a lot of guys in those comments talking about lessons learned from the incident and how it changed the standard operating procedure in both fire supression and armament procedure. You'd think someone might chime in with a "After the incident there were training courses that warned against wet starts," but those comments aren't there.

Like I said, I'll look into it.

Until then, however, there's plenty of ammunition to use against McCain, ammuniton of his own making. There's his stance on MLK Day, the involvement in the Keating S&L scandal, his less-than-impressive Campaign Finance Reform record(he doesn't use that one to make hay with any longer, does he?), and his utterly horrifying, hypocritical flip-flop on the torture issue. And I'm sure there's a lot more. Like the way he left his first wife for his second, his favorite stewardess.

General_Rennenkampf @ 48:

Truth B Told @ 45:

McCain the Liar @ 39:

Andy K Jong Il @ 36:

Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind his A-4.

'Wet-starts', done either deliberately (the starter motor switch allowed kerosene to pool in the engine and give a wet start) or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. In McCain's case, the 'wet-start' 'cooked off' and launched the M34 Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that punctured the Skyhawk's fuel tank, knocked the M-65 1000 lb. bomb off it's 500 lb. rated mount, and touched off the explosions and massive fire.

The F-4 pilot was reportedly killed in the conflagration, along with 167 of his fellow Forrestal shipmates (including those who died later from wounds suffered).

Its reports like these that don't get into official reports, especially when Admiral Daddy and Grand-daddy have friends in high places, and when Admiral Daddy is reputed to have also played a role in the hurried and sloppy investigation of the USS Liberty incident (political expediency vs justice for the sailors)

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/Hughes0712.htm

Nice....not just a tinfoil-hatter, but an anti-Semite, too! I'm sorry, but only the Neo-Nazi Right mentions the Liberty incident.

Your accusation is completely unfounded. I suppose you are USS Liberty denier?

Why do you hate the American sailors who were all shot up, torpedoed, and missile striked by several waves of attacks? I suppose the crewmen are liars? And you take the word of a foreign nation over US sailors accounts?

Andy K Jong Il @ 47:

McCain the Liar @ 39:

Andy K Jong Il @ 36:

Truth B Told @ 33:

[emphasis added]

Slow down there...

I can agree with you on a lot that you said here, but another pilot, whose plane was behind McCain's on the flight deck, accidentally(?) fired a missile. If there was a cover up it was to cover someone else's ass, not McCain's.

Video here and here.

If you can smear the guy with the truth, do it. But you're not being honest with that insinuation.

McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind his A-4.

'Wet-starts', done either deliberately (the starter motor switch allowed kerosene to pool in the engine and give a wet start) or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. In McCain's case, the 'wet-start' 'cooked off' and launched the M34 Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that punctured the Skyhawk's fuel tank, knocked the M-65 1000 lb. bomb off it's 500 lb. rated mount, and touched off the explosions and massive fire.

The F-4 pilot was reportedly killed in the conflagration, along with 167 of his fellow Forrestal shipmates (including those who died later from wounds suffered).

Yes, I read the one comment on the vid that said exactly that (and you should really indicate that you copied and pasted that comment in whole, ya know), and I'll do some research on it.

But here's my problem with that single comment- no one else, on 9 or 10 pages of YouTube comments mentions it. There are a lot of guys in those comments talking about lessons learned from the incident and how it changed the standard operating procedure in both fire supression and armament procedure. You'd think someone might chime in with a "After the incident there were training courses that warned against wet starts," but those comments aren't there.

Like I said, I'll look into it.

Until then, however, there's plenty of ammunition to use against McCain, ammuniton of his own making. There's his stance on MLK Day, the involvement in the Keating S&L scandal, his less-than-impressive Campaign Finance Reform record(he doesn't use that one to make hay with any longer, does he?), and his utterly horrifying, hypocritical flip-flop on the torture issue. And I'm sure there's a lot more. Like the way he left his first wife for his second, his favorite stewardess.

Okay, I googled "Forrestal + fire" and after looking through the first 50 results, here's what I've found:

All of the language used to implicate McCain is exactly the same. That thing you copied and pasted, McCain the Liar, can be found verbatim at this page.

Let's add to this that I have found no references to McCain's "wet-start" that are attributable to any other sources. No links to any papers or articles, but there are links to the page I linked in the last paragraph.

Finally, add to this that there are no testimonials attributed to "surviving crewmen"- that is, I can find nothing that says "Petty Officer John Jones says..," or "flight deck crewman, Able Seaman Robert Smith claims..." . Again, all I'm finding is the exact same, "Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk ..." stuff, again, verbatim, on each and every one of these pages.

Now you can continue making the argument, but until you produce evidence I've got little choice but to think that you are either:

A). A Democrat who would lie to defeat McCain
B). A Republican who would lie to defeat McCain
C). A foolish tinfoil hat wearing paranoid who believes everything he hears, regardless of proof, or lack thereof
or
D). A right-wing operative trying to make the left look like fools

If you want me to believe what you are stating here, show me the evidence, show me the people who witnessed McCain "wet-start" his A-4E.

[FIFY, as per your request. Site Monitor]

Truth B Told @ 52:

General_Rennenkampf @ 50:

Truth B Told @ 49:

General_Rennenkampf @ 48:

Your accusation is completely unfounded. I suppose you are USS Liberty denier?

Why do you hate the American sailors who were all shot up, torpedoed, and missile striked by several waves of attacks? I suppose the crewmen are liars? And you take the word of a foreign nation over US sailors accounts?

Considering what the agenda of most who mention it is....yes. For all we know, it could have been a government strike. Most people who bring up the U.S.S. Liberty are Neo-Nazis, to my knowledge. You're the first non-Neo-Nazi to bring it up. Ever.

I'm sorry, but considering 7 years of experience talking politics with people of stripes ranging from authoritarian, to genuine Neo-Nazism, to Communism and Anarchism, I'd go with experience over rationalization, here.

Oh I see, you routinely make hasty leaps to charged conclusions such as this without any prior groundwork or real experience with me? When someone throws those verbal bombs out, I have found in my experience, that its used to smear someone, to stifle debate, and so on..

What you did - makes about as much sense as when the summer patriots condemn somebody for being un-American for questioning their government. Likewise, you conflated criticism of Israel with criticism of Judaism. They are linked, yes, but they are not interchangeable. Surely, if I mentioned Rachel Corrie and condemned Israels settlement policies - does that too make me an anti-Semite? If I condemn Israel's hypocrisy of not signing the NPT, developing roughly 200-300 nuclear weapons, and then condemning Iran's efforts at peaceful nuclear programs in compliance with the NPT - would I be an anti-Semite? Or if I condemned Israels spying programs in the US - would I be an anti-Semite?

Firdt, Truth Be Told, I'll back you up on tis: I don't think you're an anti-Semite. I think one can be unsupportive of the Israeli government and not be racist.

But, again, I think you leap to conclusions.

I'm not claiming to know the reason that the USS Liberty was attacked. I don't know if there was some sub rosa deal between the US and Israel at the time, but I suspect that there was one when the two governments settled the affair in '87.

But this I do know: at the time of the Six-Day War, the US and Israel were not the BFF's that they would later become(admittedly, the US was sending a fleet to support the IDF, but given the backing of the Arab states involved in this conflict by the Soviets, I find this understandable). The Israeli's used French Dassault Mirage III's and Dassault Mysteres on their attack on the Liberty. The IDF was using French tanks. IIRC, the IDF was armed with both artillery and small arms of western European origin.

See the pattern?

Israel was engaged in a war with enemies on their northern, southern and eastern borders. Syria and Egypt both had navies, at the time made of smaller ships- most smaller than the Liberty, but nothing big. And who knew if the Soviets had snuck a small ship through from the Black Sea? You like to bring up "false flag" operations- that term originates from naval vessels that would fly flags of countries not their own. What would preclude one of Israels enemies from conducting such an operation on the high seas in a time of war?

Again, I'm not sure of what happened. "Fog of war" is the first phrase that comes to mind. But, again, you argue without proof. If you want to prosecute Israel and the US over this, the burden of proof is yours.

Andy K Jong Il @ 53:

Truth B Told @ 52:

General_Rennenkampf @ 50:

Truth B Told @ 49:

Considering what the agenda of most who mention it is....yes. For all we know, it could have been a government strike. Most people who bring up the U.S.S. Liberty are Neo-Nazis, to my knowledge. You're the first non-Neo-Nazi to bring it up. Ever.

I'm sorry, but considering 7 years of experience talking politics with people of stripes ranging from authoritarian, to genuine Neo-Nazism, to Communism and Anarchism, I'd go with experience over rationalization, here.

Oh I see, you routinely make hasty leaps to charged conclusions such as this without any prior groundwork or real experience with me? When someone throws those verbal bombs out, I have found in my experience, that its used to smear someone, to stifle debate, and so on..

What you did - makes about as much sense as when the summer patriots condemn somebody for being un-American for questioning their government. Likewise, you conflated criticism of Israel with criticism of Judaism. They are linked, yes, but they are not interchangeable. Surely, if I mentioned Rachel Corrie and condemned Israels settlement policies - does that too make me an anti-Semite? If I condemn Israel's hypocrisy of not signing the NPT, developing roughly 200-300 nuclear weapons, and then condemning Iran's efforts at peaceful nuclear programs in compliance with the NPT - would I be an anti-Semite? Or if I condemned Israels spying programs in the US - would I be an anti-Semite?

Firdt, Truth Be Told, I'll back you up on tis: I don't think you're an anti-Semite. I think one can be unsupportive of the Israeli government and not be racist.

But, again, I think you leap to conclusions.

I'm not claiming to know the reason that the USS Liberty was attacked. I don't know if there was some sub rosa deal between the US and Israel at the time, but I suspect that there was one when the two governments settled the affair in '87.

But this I do know: at the time of the Six-Day War, the US and Israel were not the BFF's that they would later become(admittedly, the US was sending a fleet to support the IDF, but given the backing of the Arab states involved in this conflict by the Soviets, I find this understandable). The Israeli's used French Dassault Mirage III's and Dassault Mysteres on their attack on the Liberty. The IDF was using French tanks. IIRC, the IDF was armed with both artillery and small arms of western European origin.

See the pattern?

Israel was engaged in a war with enemies on their northern, southern and eastern borders. Syria and Egypt both had navies, at the time made of smaller ships- most smaller than the Liberty, but nothing big. And who knew if the Soviets had snuck a small ship through from the Black Sea? You like to bring up "false flag" operations- that term originates from naval vessels that would fly flags of countries not their own. What would preclude one of Israels enemies from conducting such an operation on the high seas in a time of war?

Again, I'm not sure of what happened. "Fog of war" is the first phrase that comes to mind. But, again, you argue without proof. If you want to prosecute Israel and the US over this, the burden of proof is yours.

First, I want to thank you for your agreement about justifiable criticism and racism.

Second, this isn't really a thread about Israel and the USS Liberty, and while I normally love to pursue tangents when they lead there in discussion, I've already had several comments purged today summarily re: King's true assassin(s) after putting in time gathering the sources and writing them in here. So, when the time comes to address it in a Israel related topic, I will be more in-depth. In parting on this subject, I leave you with this citation on Johnson ordering the coverup according to Capt. Ward Boston http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5057.htm and this article: http://www.washington-report.org/archives/july_aug2003/0307042.html
You can draw your own conclusions.

but thanks again for the defense against the charge of anti-semitism

How offensive that he took the apology this far. He made a mistake, OK, so why is he up there quoting the man and pretended he gave a damn when he was assassinated? Lies, lies, lies. These candidates are losers.

Andy K Jong Il @ 58:

Truth B Told @ 55:

Andy K Jong Il @ 53:

Truth B Told @ 52:

Firdt, Truth Be Told, I'll back you up on tis: I don't think you're an anti-Semite. I think one can be unsupportive of the Israeli government and not be racist.

But, again, I think you leap to conclusions.

I'm not claiming to know the reason that the USS Liberty was attacked. I don't know if there was some sub rosa deal between the US and Israel at the time, but I suspect that there was one when the two governments settled the affair in '87.

But this I do know: at the time of the Six-Day War, the US and Israel were not the BFF's that they would later become(admittedly, the US was sending a fleet to support the IDF, but given the backing of the Arab states involved in this conflict by the Soviets, I find this understandable). The Israeli's used French Dassault Mirage III's and Dassault Mysteres on their attack on the Liberty. The IDF was using French tanks. IIRC, the IDF was armed with both artillery and small arms of western European origin.

See the pattern?

Israel was engaged in a war with enemies on their northern, southern and eastern borders. Syria and Egypt both had navies, at the time made of smaller ships- most smaller than the Liberty, but nothing big. And who knew if the Soviets had snuck a small ship through from the Black Sea? You like to bring up "false flag" operations- that term originates from naval vessels that would fly flags of countries not their own. What would preclude one of Israels enemies from conducting such an operation on the high seas in a time of war?

Again, I'm not sure of what happened. "Fog of war" is the first phrase that comes to mind. But, again, you argue without proof. If you want to prosecute Israel and the US over this, the burden of proof is yours.

First, I want to thank you for your agreement about justifiable criticism and racism.

Second, this isn't really a thread about Israel and the USS Liberty, and while I normally love to pursue tangents when they lead there in discussion, I've already had several comments purged today summarily re: King's true assassin(s) after putting in time gathering the sources and writing them in here. So, when the time comes to address it in a Israel related topic, I will be more in-depth. In parting on this subject, I leave you with this citation on Johnson ordering the coverup according to Capt. Ward Boston http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5057.htm and this article: http://www.washington-report.org/archives/july_aug2003/0307042.html
You can draw your own conclusions.

but thanks again for the defense against the charge of anti-semitism

You're welcome. But another "but"....

Did you read the second link?

First it offers us this:

Assistant Secretary of Defense for Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence John Stenbit told an audience at a conference on "Transforming National Security and Protecting the Homeland," held April 15 to 17 in Vienna, VA, that the Israelis had warned the U.S. to move the USS Liberty or they would sink it.

[emphasis added]

And three paragraphs later, this:

Daichman also speculates that Israel may have tried to sink the ship and blame Egypt, and thus provoke a lethal U.S. response.

[emphasis added]

That's contradictory. That's nothing like evidence- it's a synopsis of completely different theories.

Look, I'm not saying there wasn't a cover-up. Obviously there was. But I'm not willing to say that what was covered up was more than the stupidity up and down two chains of command.

Call me a skeptic and you'd probably be right. But I'm as skeptical of the official line as much as I'm skeptical of the theories you're proposing.

Okay, you're right, we're going ot. I don't want to use up any good will I've banked here.

you guys all know there's strong evidence mccain's dad helped cover up the u.s.s liberty attack, right?

and as far as israel's intentions with that attack, i think you folks are giving them to much benefit of doubt, especially considering the history of false flag terrorism, especially considering mossad's motto is "through deception, thou shalt make war."

and know, i'm not anti-semitic at all. if you knew who i was, you'd know how patently absurd that insinuation would be.

jews i love. fanatical zionists, not so much.

bullfrog @ 59:

Andy K Jong Il @ 58:

Truth B Told @ 55:

Andy K Jong Il @ 53:

First, I want to thank you for your agreement about justifiable criticism and racism.

Second, this isn't really a thread about Israel and the USS Liberty, and while I normally love to pursue tangents when they lead there in discussion, I've already had several comments purged today summarily re: King's true assassin(s) after putting in time gathering the sources and writing them in here. So, when the time comes to address it in a Israel related topic, I will be more in-depth. In parting on this subject, I leave you with this citation on Johnson ordering the coverup according to Capt. Ward Boston http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5057.htm and this article: http://www.washington-report.org/archives/july_aug2003/0307042.html
You can draw your own conclusions.

but thanks again for the defense against the charge of anti-semitism

You're welcome. But another "but"....

Did you read the second link?

First it offers us this:

Assistant Secretary of Defense for Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence John Stenbit told an audience at a conference on "Transforming National Security and Protecting the Homeland," held April 15 to 17 in Vienna, VA, that the Israelis had warned the U.S. to move the USS Liberty or they would sink it.

[emphasis added]

And three paragraphs later, this:

Daichman also speculates that Israel may have tried to sink the ship and blame Egypt, and thus provoke a lethal U.S. response.

[emphasis added]

That's contradictory. That's nothing like evidence- it's a synopsis of completely different theories.

Look, I'm not saying there wasn't a cover-up. Obviously there was. But I'm not willing to say that what was covered up was more than the stupidity up and down two chains of command.

Call me a skeptic and you'd probably be right. But I'm as skeptical of the official line as much as I'm skeptical of the theories you're proposing.

Okay, you're right, we're going ot. I don't want to use up any good will I've banked here.

you guys all know there's strong evidence mccain's dad helped cover up the u.s.s liberty attack, right?

and as far as israel's intentions with that attack, i think you folks are giving them to much benefit of doubt, especially considering the history of false flag terrorism, especially considering mossad's motto is "through deception, thou shalt make war."

and know, i'm not anti-semitic at all. if you knew who i was, you'd know how patently absurd that insinuation would be.

jews i love. fanatical zionists, not so much.

bullfrog- Respectfully what part of my statement, "Look, I'm not saying there wasn't a cover-up. Obviously there was," don't you get?

And what intelligence service, throughout the history of intelligence services, doesn't practice just what the Mossad's motto is, even if they don't use it as their own motto?

Brian Williams lives in my old hometown of New Canaan, CT. There's something in the water there, I suspect, that makes people say and do weird things.

Williams has never had an anti-establishment thought in his life. Ann Coulter. who grew up in New Canaan, still thinks liberals are the problem in this country. Paul (Jerry) Bremer is the New Canaan guy who became "our man in Baghdad" and dismantled the Iraqi army. Ari Fleischer (Bush's first press secretary) is from New Canaan, and Lawrence Eagelburger lived there when I did.

As I say, there's something in the water.

You write: "Jamison Fosner discusses the 100 year comment…."

It's Jamison FOSER, you nitwit.