Will Afghanistan Be Obama's Downfall?
By Steve Hynd Monday Dec 15, 2008 11:00amRay McGovern: If Obama gets this wrong, Afghanistan will be his Vietnam.
At a meeting in Paris on Sunday, top-level representatives of Afghanistan, its neighbours and world powers met to agree to put the country to rights.
"There can be no long-term security and peace in the region without a stable, secure, prosperous and democratic Afghanistan," they said in a statement released after a one-day conference in Paris.
The envoys "expressed their support for existing initiatives to reinforce cooperation between Afghanistan and its neighbours (and) committed to the effective implementation of these initiatives."
But, apart from a vague agreement "to work more closely to strengthen border security as a key component of counter-narcotics and counter-terrorism," no concrete measures were announced.
All talk and no action, especially when you consider that the most significant neighbor, Pakistan, needs to be "a stable, secure, prosperous and democratic" nation first before Afghanistan can become one -- and no one has a blessed clue how to accomplish that in the teeth of an entrenched feudal and military elite who see Afghanistan as simply the biggest of their decades-long proxy battlegrounds with another neighbor, India. The third significant neighbor, Iran, didn't even turn up in Paris because Sarkozy was dumb enough to repeat the old lie about Ahmadinejad wanting to wipe Israel off the map. That'll help.
All of this noise signifying nothing is symptomatic, though, of Western leaders who seem happy to fiddle while Kabul burns. All are quite willing to put lipstick on the pig publicly, pretending that Pakistan is co-operating when it's doing exactly the reverse in every important way and that Afghanistan isn't slipping fast into chaos. Bush, for instance, landing in Kabul secretly at 5 a.m. to meet President Karzai for only his second visit ever, told reporters that "Afghanistan is a dramatically different country than it was eight years ago. We are making hopeful gains." What is the guy drinking?
The truth, as reported better in the Canadian and British press than by American media, is that Afghanistan is wondering where it's going and why it is in a handbasket. Bush had to fly from Bagram airbase to Kabul - the military couldn't have guaranteed his safety by road. Rampant corruption among the Afghan government and police force, along with heavy-handed aggressiveness from allied troops, have largely made the cities and military bases islands in a Taliban sea. "The Americans and the Afghan army control the highway, and five meters on each side. The rest is our territory," one Taliban commander told the Guardian's Ghaith Abdul Ahad. The Taliban are the only form of order in many rural areas.
Hemmet and other Taliban commanders I met explained the Taliban's sophisticated network of military and civilian leadership. Each province has its own Taliban governor, military leader and shura [consultation] council. Below them are district commanders like Hemmet, who in turn divides his force into smaller units. Many say the civilian apparatus of the Taliban-run districts operates a more effective justice system than the government's, which is corrupt and inefficient. Nominally, all the councils look to Mullah Omar for guidance. In reality each province and district has its own dynamics.
Mullah Muhamadi, one of Hemmet's men, arrived later wearing a long leather jacket and a turban bigger than all the others. "This is not just a guerrilla war, and it's not an organized war with fronts," he said. "It's both." He went on to explain the importance the Taliban attached to creating a strong administration in the areas it held: "When we control a province we need to provide service to the people. We want to show the people that we can rule, and that we are ready for the day when we take over Kabul, that we have learned from our mistakes.
That's an enormously significant statement, if it reflects reality rather than Taliban wishful thinking. Counter-insurgency doctrine says that no amount of military force or even bribery can remove an insurgency from an area where it is supported by the general populace. But it would also pave the way for a negotiated settlement with Taliban who were willing to stop fighting, instead becoming a relatively non-oppressive local government. The UK and other allies have become convinced that this is the only path to "success" and eventual withdrawal left open and have already had some successes in that regard.
However, the Taliban are even more widely supported in Pakistan's border areas - and have the support/direction of at least large chunks of the military and ISI intelligence agency to boot. They've already proven they can hit Western supply lines with impunity, at a cost of millions of dollars, and can strangle the Western military presence in Afghanistan should they wish to. We're back to the thorny problem of nuke-armed Pakistan, from which 75% of the world's terror plots emanate. A general invasion is not an option and it's highly unlikely that anything less than an invasion will have an appreciable effect. Thus it seems that all Pakistan and the Taliban have to do is out-wait the inevitable Western collapse as the occupation loses support and authority. Canada has said it doesn't wish to still be involved after 2011, the mainland Europeans are clearly reluctant to get sucked in to a treasure and blood draining quagmire, and even British politicians are saying staying in the hope of half-assed 'success" isn't worth it.
Kim Howells, the former foreign office minister, thinks so: he predicted in the Commons last week that as conflict grinds on "the people of our country will express concerns that we have heard little about to date", particularly following Taliban resurgence in areas from which they were supposedly eradicated. They would increasingly ask why British lives should be risked to preserve an Afghan regime he described as riddled with corruption.
The Tories apparently scent a change of public mood, too, threatening last week to oppose any fresh deployment unless their conditions were met on everything from better kit to a bigger role for Nato allies.
... Howells argued last week it was unlikely the Taliban could ever be totally expelled and Pakistan's refugee camps would remain fertile recruiting ground for extremists. It was "daft" to suggest Britain could pursue this war for decades, he said, "however much we try to rationalise it by arguing that it is better to fight al-Qaida over there than over here".
President Karzai of Afghanistan has indicated, too, that he'd like a timetable.
Into all this will come, from January 20th, President Barack Obama. And he doesn't have any better ideas so far either. His primary plans involve beefing up the US military presence, creating more targets and more wedding bombings, while also turning a more belligerent eye on Pakistan, which will react by pressure up a notch or six in the border areas and on supply lines. He does have a secondary policy of better targeted aide to both Afghanistan and Pakistan, but no details on how he'll prevent the corrupt governments there from siphoning all the money away from areas that need it or how he'll convince them to mend their many nefarious ways. Meanwhile, the Taliban will go right on being the only order many Afghans know.
Even if Obama's plan doesn't work, it will need a tax increase and a bigger army. But to be fair, I've no better ideas. I don't think anyone does, other than to accept defeat, pull out then try to contain the sore that is Pakistan and Afghanistan as best as possible (and that would require Iran's co-operation) . At the moment that's politically unacceptable, even if as we've seen things are changing. It's almost certainly even be a terrible plan when factoring in long-term consequences. Staying is a bust, going is a bust. The best thing anyone can say about untangling the region's knotted problems is "well, I wouldn't start from here." But this is where Bush leaves off and Obama will take over. Steve Clemons writes:
We shouldn't allow corruption scandals and other silly posturing on Sunday morning shows to distract us from the reality that we are on a quite negative trajectory in Afghanistan (and Pakistan) right now -- and we need whopping game-changing moves there that are as significant, if not more, than challenges about America's auto sector.
But if Steve has any game-changing ideas he's not being forthcoming with them either. What he does worry, though, is that Afghanistan "will be the place where the dreams and hopes of the Obama Presidency are buried."
I fear he may be right on that.
Crossposted from Newshoggers








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The Brits and the Russians couldn't defeat Afghanistan, why should we?
If it falls, it falls, we have little or nothing to do about it.
The question is will we be bogged down for years before reaching this conclusion a'la Vietnam.
The Russians couldn't defeat Afghanistan because we were dumping Stingers into the country like we had gone into liquidation.
We've already seen what happens when the Taliban is in power. I'm no fan of Iraq, but damnnit we DO have to win in Afghanistan, and by we I mean the entire world.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...
Didn't win because the Russians were providing the Afghans arms.
And we won't win because the afghans are still getting arms from various sources.
What happens when the Taliban is in power?
They treat their own people like vermin, especially the women.
Just like in a whole slew of other countries that we support, like Saudi Arabia.
It was mostly Saudis who planned AND executed the 9/11 attacks.
Not Afghanis. Not Iraqis.
Saudis and a coupla Pakistanis.
A country with a popular insurgency and the support of an outside source cannot be defeated.
I didn't say that. Napoleon Bonaparte said that after the debacle of his Iberian campaign.
Not to mention the fact that our military has been ruined by the Bush junta.
Just "how badly ruined" remains to be seen.
"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity... the country behind this propaganda is the U.S." -- Robin Cook - Former British Foreign Secretary
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5834/pnacp...
Al Quaida is the bogeyman du jour for the use of cowing the sheeple into wanting "protection."
It is a scam to prop up those "Defense" contracts and such has been the case since the end of WWII.
Al Quaida is the "New Improved Cold War."
No Al Qaeda?
WTF! What's next, you're going to tell me there's no Santa Claus too?
Sorry, but I am annoyed with the notion of discussing BO's "downfall" before he's even sworn in. Sounds too much like right wing framing.
With the sh!t that is coming down the pike, Obama should have asked for a recount.
The economy will be his Waterloo.
And Afghanistan may be where he wants to hide out after the sh!t comes totally unglued here.
It worked for Osama, why not Obama.
Zimbabwe USA.
You truly have no idea what will happen. Nice subtle Obama, Osama comparison though....you sound like that crazy white haired bitch at the McCain rally.
Watch this and get back to me.
We are not even half way through the mortgage crap and only in the third inning of the economic meltdown.
The Fed and the Treasury have committed $8.5 Trillion thus far, the total could be $20 Trillion.
That is money being printed out of thin air.
This kind of monetization has ruined other economies. It will ruin us.
This is on top of the monstrous drain from Iraq.
You had better get as complete a fix as you can on how really bad it is NOW, BEFORE January 20, because the Reptiles will pin everything on him after that.
And oh by the way, don't post in all bold. It is rude, not to mention your rude statement.
I have been studying the economic situation voraciously, I know a couple of things. Neither of them are good.
AND furthermore, I don't support being in either war.
War is a racket.
is not even taking into consideration the Repig murder of Detroit - aided and abetted by the executive boards of the big three.
It's not just the automakers that crash; it's tire manufacturers, glassworks, electrical components - on and on.
This is going to get much uglier for quite a while.
If you had mention the Bush crime gang's complete culpability in this quicksand of shit, I'd be with you, however your entire post at 11:14 blames Obama....you're playing the "Reptiles" blame everything on Obama for them.
I blame the entire political culture going back to WWII for our situation today.
It is the same CIA secret government in there.
It is the same entire Military Industrial Media Complex.
It is the same Wall Street Bookies, the Fat Cat crooks that have created an economy that may turn into another Great Depression or something even worse.
Iraq and Afghanistan belong to Bush, Clinton set the stage for the economy and Bush pushed it over the cliff.
Obama has already sided with the Wall Street Bookies, they helped put him in office.
You don't get the job by alienating the people that own the country.
Unless one were to do something extraordinary.
The Reptiles made the silly claim he was a Marxist, he says he isn't. I take him on face value on this.
It is a tough way to start a revolution by denying there is one.
I would say he is behind the 8 ball. We are all behind the 8 ball, except for the Fat Cats.
They are riding high. Not as high as they would like but we are giving them Trillions.
The Fat Cats take their money and put it in whatever country gives them the best return.
They don't care about us or this country. They do like our Military. If fact, serving their interests is what it is for.
What do we need a $600 Billion plus a year defense establishment for, protection from Canada? Mexico? Guatemala?
War is a racket.
On January 20 it is Obama's turn. It will be a tough room as they say in the entertainment business.
it's wort repeating.
If Lincoln or FDR had listened to the Alice X's of their day(mystics who of course, are smarter than the President-elect) they would have just mailed it in. Alice X can just hide behind the proverbial bush(with you behind her) jumping out only to offer criticism(no solutions)...second guessing the future. Lol.
Lotta work to be done folks...see you when Obama fucks up.
As I see it, she's telling truth and identifying sources. what's with your attack?
Read her post at 11:14 and please explain it to me. She suggests that the economy Bush fucked up will be Obama's "Waterloo". Alice additionally offered that Obama should hide in the Afghan mountains with Osama once things became "unglued" here(as if they aren't already). To suggest that Obama "hide" would appear to me that he's responsible for something that would necessitate "hiding".
Nice.
But I guess you would consider her projections to be the truth. I'm done arguing with you fortune tellers.
This is the road to Waterloo:
The dollar will tank.
The Chinese will not lend us anymore money.
The price of oil will not be pegged to the dollar and will go through the stratosphere in dollars.
We will have severe or even hyperinflation because of the severely devalued dollar and the money we are printing out of thin air.
It will be especially severe against imports from China. Which will negatively impact the few industries we still have because we get so many components from China.
Then we will have price controls which will mean dramatic shortages.
We will pull all of our troops out of everywhere because we won't be able to pay the piper. We will have no choice.
Unless we just print money but that won't work for long.
Our military currently uses more oil annually than Sweden.
That will come to an end.
The infrastructure that Obama wants to rebuild as part of a New New Deal will do us no good, it is what got us here in the first place.
And the economy will continue to spiral downwards.
Then we default on our debts and the world's financial markets fall into an even far worse chaos than now.
This is my worst case scenario and this is what is already in the pipeline on January 20th.
In order to improve on that scenario he must pull ALL of the troops out in rapid withdrawal, cut the defense budget in half and reverse the privatization of the military, mandate oil conservation by tariffs on oil to cut imports by half or more and stop printing excess money. In essence, balance our trade.
Bush lied us into two costly wars paid with a credit card, instead of raising, he cut taxes and then told the people to go shopping, with their credit cards.
Obama will have to say: walk to the store, only buy food if you can afford it, don't drive, leave your credit cards at home, if you have any and you haven't been foreclosed, at home sit in the dark and where you need heat, don't turn it up.
How would you rate the popularity of any of this.
We racked up $14 Trillion in private debt and $11 plus Trillion in Public Debt. Not to mention the $50 Trillion in looming Social Security and Medicare obligations.
And to cover it all up we have phony public and private accounting.
But, that is not entirely new and we had already been in decline at least since Johnson and then Nixon cooked the books about the cost of Vietnam. That is what led to stagflation in the seventies and eighties, it has been borrow and spend every since Reagan, though Clinton looked promising briefly. It is the same crap today only far worse and the chickens are coming home to roost but good this time.
This is the road to Waterloo, he is on it from day one. You have my solutions…
There are going to be a lot of people hiding from this crap. The potential for social unrest, even severe is very high.
And oh by the way I didn't say that ANYONE would WANT to hide WITH Osama, only that Afghanistan as a hiding place worked for him. Which should lead to the question of what the hell were we doing there for seven years anyway. The explicitly stated purpose was to capture Osama.
At least do me the courtesy of being sure what it is I actually said before you announce that you don't like it.
...the fact that most of your comments are simply prognostications....you're just the political equivalent of a weather woman. If had to choose your ideas over the battle tested Obama....
Please don't try and run from, or clean up the "hiding out in Afghanistan like Osama" comment. That was right wing worthy stupid.
And since you brought up the great man , WEB DuBois, if you work a little harder you may join me in the "talented tenth". Lol.
You DISHONESTLY put quotations around words I did not use and then attack me for them, that is worse than dishonest. That is the action of a JERK.
If you are going to attribute words to me, copy and paste.
These were not just prognostications, I gave specific actions to be taken, which you did not respond to, are you unable?.
Prudent (left wing) actions:
You are the right winger.
Here is my complete initial statement:
And since you are so nourished with "substance" please "honestly" explain your Obama hiding in Afghanistan(of all places) since "It worked for Osama, why not Obama." Those are YOUR words Alice, not mine. What are you really trying to say or insinuate? The right wing constantly attempted to associate Obama and Osama during the campaign...your comment is at least similar.
Charles Barkley once claimed to be misquoted....in his autobiography! Lol.
Finally you copied my exact words.
I HAVE EXPLAINED IT.
I am saying you haven't seen anything yet as far as bad economic news.
When the banks want 50% on their loans or Credit Card companies want 100% on their cards, then we will have some deep shit.
That is what we are headed for.
The expenditures must be cut immediately.
Jimmy Carter's situation is going to look like a walk in the park.
You just don't get it.
Keep trying Alice - you got my vote.
Hey L&L, do you just randomly come to this site and pick fights with people? Don't you ever get outrage fatigue? Plus, I've been noticing in your posts a lot of foul language. I'd like to think that we're all friends here, but you're kind of a bummer.This is a place where, for the most part, ideas get exchanged in a civil way. Yelling at people in all caps, cursing and picking fights with people is a little uncool.
Judge me by the merits of my argument, not my delivery....am I wrong or not(I noticed that you didn't delve into its worth).
In regards to my language Joe, I already have a mother...ignore me if I hurt your feelings. I'm a Obama supporter who never gets "outrage fatigue" when someone lies or projects lies on the Democratically elected President who has yet to make a single Executive decision.
Robert Gates at Defense
Tim Geithner at Treasury (Mr. Bail the Fat Cats Out for Top Dollar Himself)
Your arguments have no merit because they have no substance.
You dishonestly attack for words that were not used and you refuse to address the matter.
You are dishonest.
In winning the Presidency Obama has earned at least a CHANCE at making HIS appointments work before you and the right wing slam him.
You are unfair.
The bobble-heads are f*cking clueless. How would Afghanistan be Obama's Vietnam? He didn't start the war and he wasn't the one who let it get out of hand so he could go into Iraq based on lies. If Afghanistan were to fail it would be much more Bush's fault than Obama's.
McGovern is not a bobblehead. He has a history of taking leaders to task and asking them to defend their positions.
He points out that Obama defined the surge as a success in Iraq, when there was little evidence of that. He also stated that Obama's macro-approach to Afghanistan seems to be the same as Bush, to achieve military dominance in the area.
This was not a personal attack on Obama by a freeper.
Constantly being cornered while having his patriotism and support for the troops questioned during the campaign, he simply admitted that the surge was more successful that he thought it would be. Obama also pointed out how this maneuver adversely affected Afghanistan.
Obama Admits Surge Success
In an interview on the “O’Reilly Factor” on Fox News, Barack Obama admitted, for the first time, that the troop surge strategy was successful “beyond our wildest dreams’.
He qualified it. But you cannot say he never said it was a success. He also re-hired the sec def Gates. If there was accountability for a failure, it doesn't show there.
...Grandpa and the right wing media badgered him continually with those loaded ("are you a secret muslim who doesn't support America?") questions to attack his loyalty. Sure, his answers were political...at the time he had no choice.
If you're suggesting that Obama will continue the Bush abject war failures, I'm just not there.
To assume that Obama can achieve victory on two wars which were fundamentally flawed from the outset by a change of strategy is erroneous.
I know Obama cannot do this politically, but withdrawal and recognition of mistakes and failures is the only rational approach when we have gone this far with irrationality.
McGovern and Alice are making the point that Obama appears to agree with the macro strategy in the middle east which is a military solution, and that doesn't bode well for rationality.
...to know his plans. And I have never felt we can "achieve victory" in those two hell blizzards we had no businesses in in the first place.
I do believe that there is NO way Obama will continue this failed criminal bullshit escapade.
Written over two thousand years ago, it explains why Vietnam failed and the same can be said about Afghanistan. His tennants of war are a good litmus test as to whether or not a war will succeed.
The problem is Nixon didn't start Vietnam, but was left holding the bag. The distinction is he supposedly had a secret plan to end it during his first term, and expanded it only to give it up during his second term.
Tricky Dick undercut LBJ's peace negotiations in 1968 - to help win his election...wonder why it's taken 50 years for the facts to come out?
until after the election. no surprise the repugs undercut the dems at every turn. and the dems take it and ask for more.
I believe they credit Colby and Bush for that trick. I doubt Reagan was ever told about it.
LBJ's downfall was his escalation of the War on the Vietnamese People, but he didn't start it.
The US involvement in that war dated back to Truman, who sent tens of millions of dollars (that was a lot of money in the late 40's) to support the French occupation.
Then after the Vietnamese defeated the French at Dien Bien Phu (1954) the Russians and the Eisenhower administration sold them out by partitioning Vietnam into North and South, promising to hold elections in 1956 to determine whether to re-unify the country under Communist rule or under the US-backed remains of the French puppet government in Saigon.
When time for the elections arrived the US refused to participate, as it was clear the North would win. By then the CIA was firmly entrenched in Saigon and was initiating military action in the North. The first US casualties in Vietnam were in the late 50's, during the Eisenhower administration (check the earliest dates on the Wall).
As McGovern notes in this clip, JFK was withdrawing US forces from Vietnam when he was assassinated. Many believe that was why he was assassinated.
When LBJ took power he chose to escalate the war, much to the delight of his financial backers, Brown and Root (the BR of KBR - no coincidence) with disastrous results for all but those war profiteers.
And as this clip points out, it was LBJ's decision to escalate the war that led to his political downfall.
LBJ didn't start the US War Against the Vietnamese People, but his decision to esacalate that war WAS his downfall.
That's why I didn't go into the details.
...of the matter. ALL wars are basically fought to enrich the financial backers of the wars - on both sides. As far as I can tell, the good ol' US of A has been on both sides of most all htye wars in the last century - and that seems to still be true.
Until and unless we get rid of the cabal of financial elitists who start and run all of the wars using other folks' children, we are doomed to continue the same stupid history we've had for the past 200+ years. Let a bunch of Mothers run the world for a few decades and see if that helps......
One important aspect not included... Ho Chi Min and the Vietnamese fought side-by-side with the U.S. forces against the Japanese and Vase French during WWII.
In 1945, Ho crafted a Declaration of Independence patterned after Jefferson's, hoping to gain American support for Vietnamese independence. He went to Washington, but failed in getting any support, from Democrat or Republican.
He was forced by short-sighted, narrow-minded Washington politicians to turn to the Communist countries for support.
Yes -- with U.S. support in 1945, a unified Democratic Vietnam could have been born, and the "10,000 Day War" would never have occurred.
Republicans still refuse to read and learn the culture of the Middle East. Thank God Obama is educated and knows how to respect the people. Look for cooperation and new leadeship in the troubled area's of Iraq and Afghanstan. Bush's puppet Leaders will leave with their pocket's full of US taxpayers money and laugh how well they used the US. These guys wont have to write a book to get money they were well paid by the Bush Administration. Now what scares the GOP is Obama will succeed and that leaves out the 2012 election. Now Iraq has a successful Stock Market with no US investors and all the trillions of US dollars given they don't have to pay back thanks to George W. Bush's agreement when he invaded Iraq. Maybe Iraq will be willing to give the US a loan since we're tapped out from China.
the international scene with any more refinement than a sledge-hammer on porcelain.
That is a characteristic of the exceptionality that is the hallmark of USer interactions with the whole world. Mrukins, on the whole, do not do nuance. It's a French word. Murkins as a rule don't DO 'other' languages. If English was good enough for the Bible, it's good enough for them.
Anybody with even the figment of a fragment of a grey cell KNEW with utter certainty that Obama was inheriting a situation he was going to be powerless to "improve," in anything like an acceptable strategic or tactical sense. There is only one way to "improve" the situation, and that is to stage as rapid and thorough 'withdrawal upon prepared positions.'
Whatever the fate of the region is--and one guesses it will not be a pleasnt place to live for some many MORE years--that fate was written on the sole of the first boot of the first USer trooper who stepped off the first aircraft in the first invasion of Afghanistan in 2001... Imperial inertia is unstoppable; nationalism is immovable. Guess what?
Yup! Another empire gone down out west of the Khyber Pass...
The dilemma is that you just cannot unshit the bed. The deed is done, and all the rest is dealing with the consequences.
It wasn't PE Obama who pulled some of our best military assets out of Afghanistan and sent them to Iraq for five going on six years. He wasn't the one who used up our troops and money and weapons in a country where we never had any business being. This war is being kicked down the street to him, just like the financial disaster he will inherit. These won't be his "downfall" these will be the bush burdens left for him to try to deal with as best as any human could.
If your neighbor's dog poops in your yard, it's not your fault if it smells bad.
"If your neighbor's dog poops in your yard, it's not your fault if it smells bad."
The rest of the world - and the common Afghani in particular, for this discussion - doesn't see Clinton, Bush, or Obama - they only see "America".
Moreover, let's be clear about there being only one President at a time, it works retrospectively too. If it breaks on Obama's watch, while enacting Obama's policies, he's where the buck stops. As I said in my post, the best thing anyone can say about untangling the region's knotted problems is "well, I wouldn't start from here." That acknowledges Bush's foul-ups, but the responsibility after Jan 20 will still be Obama's. He has to start from here.
Regards, C
Afghan is the person.
Just FYI.
Just to mess around a little bit for the sake of conversation, if we can pull all our troops out of Iraq over the next couple of years, will that mean a success for Obama?
If you measure success by what a candidate says, then yes.
Pulling out completely is probably not in the cards for a while, if ever. Redeploying in the region is more like it, with a steady drawdown on forces in the theater.
I think that it will mean a success for a lot of people.
unless his efforts in Afghanistan are a failure, since he's made much of saying he wants to straighten things out in Afghanistan. I, personally, think we need to withdraw from both countries.
Way back when, Bush said he invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban wouldn't give up bin Laden so he could be punished for 911. Thing is, there's no evidence that bin Laden had anything to do with 911, so that was probably a fool's errand, too.
But. Too many Americans are heavily invested in "winning" both in Iraq and Afghanistan, though nobody really knows what that means. Sometimes, all you can do is give up a futile and unnecessary effort.
when he invoked Fisk.
The objective is bin Laden and al qaeda, not Afghanistan. If Rumsfeld had provided troops way back when the al qaeda were convened in Tora Bora this speculation would not be happening. Rumsfeld was playing a shell game with troops.
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwa...
His background is pretty solid. I don't see this as a personal attack on Obama.
Can you fill me in on Fisk Blue? I don't know who he is.
Robert Fisk, mid-East correspondent for the Independent.
Fisking: from rightwing blog useage, a line-ny-line nitpicking rebuttal of an argument or story.
Regards, C
Great post and great source on the Real News. That network is a very important experiment and I hope it works.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/
I read his articles frequently at http://www.commondreams.org/
He's a top-notch journalist & keen observer of Middle East affairs.
of holding Rumfeld's feet to the fire.
Fisk stirs some strong feelings with his views towards Israel.
Apologies for multi-tasking blogging and work. Priorities put work first.
With all due respect, the objective was never Al-Qaeda. To say so is naive. Al-Qaeda serves a purpose. It's the go to bogeyman and the U.S. needs it.
The real objective, however, was to contain Iran while controlling the oil pipelines in the region, essentially cutting off China's oil supply as it's viewed as the next superpower. We're talking long term planning here. Think 10 to 20 years. That's why I'm skeptical that Obama will change anything. The people who shape the United States' foreign policy and long term strategic planning do not answer to one administration or another.
n/t
It was also very important to the Bush Crime Family to revive the extremely profitable Opium Trade that the Taliban had virtually eliminated.
Mission Accomplished!
No doubt an issue.
I was wondering what the figures were for Bush family profits from the Opium trade.
down my way yet?
WTF? ;)
Skull And Bones was founded by the Opium Traders of the early 1800's - follow the money.
They lost out when the global slave trade was made illegal in the late 1700's and invested in opium instead.
Imported all those opium addicted Chinese to build the railroads in the American West in the late 1800's. That's where GW's great grandfather made his initial fortune - selling to the railroads.
Real swell guys, those Skull And Bones fellas!
Kerry's mom's fortune (the Forbes) was all opium money too.
with Obama's doesn't make your point and is wrong.
Only time will tell if the next administration is truly interested in 'rebuilding' a war torn country or is merely looking to continue the occupation in Afghanistan for the benefit of arms dealers and military contractors.
As we've heard a couple of days ago, Rumsfeld laughed at the idea of investing in a foreign country (Iraq).
There's also the issue of the pipeline to the Caspian sea, a pipeline that hugs the Iranian border along the northern regions of the country. Not to state the obvious, but, strategically, it's very important.
Will Obama's administration and the Pentagon behave differently now? Only time will tell. Color me skeptical.
I can't believe people are posing this question after Iraq...correction, while Iraq is still going. Afghanistan and Iraq are not alike at all and stabilizing Afghanistan would take a level of creativity that frankly does not exist in Washington D.C. (now or with Obama in power).
Obama has voiced support for a surge, which is exactly what is not needed. Pakistan can't control certain areas and they're the oldest hands in the book when it comes to this area. Where do 'we' (we as in the west) think that we can march in and throw money and troops around and **voila*** problem fixed. It's delusion.
Now, I'm not saying that I'm happy with where Afghanistan is, but if people continue to insist on this "fix Afghanistan" stuff, then yes Obama will have trouble here. Everyone does, without fail.
"Afghanistan" has never been a "country" except in the eyes of the outsiders who have fought wars over her.
Iraq was a country, however fragily stitched together when the Brits took over the occupation from the Ottoman Turks in 1920.
But Afghanistan has always been a collection of warlords, and it still is.
"What to do with Afghanistan?" has been the question addressed by one failed invasion after another.
I don't pretend to have the answer, but I do know that pouring more troops into the region is NOT part of the solution.
I've got a lot of faith in Obama, but I agree with McGovern - all Obama's electoral rhetoric about Afghanistan is WRONG, and the ONLY intelligent thing for him to do is exactly what McGovern said: listen to a lot of voices that have not yet been heard (including some women's voices - good on you Ray!) and THEN determine what to do.
"Iraq was a country, however fragily stitched together when the Brits took over the occupation from the Ottoman Turks in 1920."
No. Iraq was the area made up of 3 different Ottoman Velayets. The Brits drew the line around these three and made Iraq a country. That is one of the interesting things about Iraq. There is intense nationalism despite the fact that it has a very short history as a country.
"Iraq" was "fragily stitched together when the Brits took over" ..
Without going into details, "Iraq" became a national entity after that, in that many "Iraqis" felt themselves to be part of the country "Iraq" ..
Surely the tri-part Sunni-Shia-Kurd divide persisted under the surface, but it took a lot of effort by covert ops funded by the US to get the current Civil War started.
Afghanis (outside of Kabul) have never felt that sort of national identity.
I guess I was wrong to think that you meant "state" as well. Iraq is a western construct of Ottoman holdings. Just saying, it was two of the Vilayets in 1921 and the third wasn't added for five years. Even the hundreds of years prior to this, under the Ottomans, 'Iraq' didn't exist as we know it today.
I hesitate to support your notion that people magically felt "Iraqi" after the Brits drew some lines and called it Iraq...but certainly the history to the place and the people supercedes the line drawing. And yes, over time, the notion of Iraq took hold even though it was ruled by a Hashemite (Saudi) King--also via the British--until 1958.
You're right that the divide between the people has been overplayed as well. Before the war, that sort of thing rarely mattered to anyone in the general population.
Just FYI, the Afghani is the monetary unit of Afghanistan. Afghans are the people. : ) Popular mistake really.
> "There can be no long-term security and peace in
> the region without a stable, secure, prosperous
> and democratic Afghanistan," they said in a
> statement released after a one-day conference
> in Paris.
What bullshit. There can be no peace until religious occultism around the world is eliminated. Religion is the problem.
Scarcity and Insecurity drive people towards immoral religious beliefs. Scarcity is the problem.
"Afghanistan's significance from an energy standpoint stems from its geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from central Asia to the Arabian sea. This potential includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas export pipelines through Afghanistan."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/23/a...
Do you know how hard it would be to ensure that this line could be:
A) constructed safely
B) maintained safely
C) protected from attack
Nearly impossible. That's why Baku-Ceyhan makes more sense...even with Georgia in its current predicament with the Russians.
And it's not OIL...it's natural gas. : )
I'm not a geologist. Political science is where I feel comfortable. Having said that, oil and gas are equally a precious commodity in today's world.
Surely...I just wanted to correct the notion that countries like Turkmenistan are sitting on tons of oil to pump out and send through A-Stan to Lahore.
There is oil shale in the region, but Natural Gas is the big one here.
I think that oil must be worth a lot more though because the Arabs just burn it right off as the oil comes out of the ground (gas often sits on top).
like this is my plan. i think the whole thing is effin nuts. and, to answer your question: yes, i do know that providing security would be nearly impossible. it would take thousands of US troops and.... oh... nevermind.
and, as far as the "its not oil", fine, i was just going by the monbiot article...
and of course the BTC pipeline is part and parcel of the georgian-russian aggression.
I wonder how many great thinkers it takes to overwhelm the consensus on the ground that the Taliban will control, rule, direct actions of, etc.. Both of these "stans"
What is it that makes people believe anyone outside the region is going to have any input on the events on the ground? You can bomb them, and insure the mission fails. You can help them, and insure the mission fails.
They do not want us there. We gain nothing from being there. Explain again why we are there when it was the Saudi's that attacked us and started Al Caca? I can't wait for Alzheimer's to come visiting like it has our political discourse. Forgetting is the easiest thing, so that is what our representatives do.
Are there still substantial bribes working for opium? Is that enough to keep us in the region?
have to do with the fact that "we" do not have land bases around the Caspian Sea from which to protect "our" interests in the last, largest pool of carbon fuel anywhere on earth NOT on the sea-floor.
It's mostly natural gas and there's a LOT of it. Really, LOTS! Plus there's a lot of minerals and metals and other stuff around the place.
India, China, and Russia, being 'locals,' all have strategic and tactical capabilities in the region. Palin-ography notwithstanding, the US dows not share a common border with any of the states involved. The region IS within fighter-range of northern Iraq, across Turkey. Which is one of the Real-politik al reasons for the invasion of Iraq in the first place, after "we'd" accepted Mr. bin Laden's invitation to leave Saudi.
Afghanistan is a LOT closer. Baghram Airbase is immense, one of those 'visible-from-space' things, like Camp Bondsteel (which happens to be on the western end of that pipeline running through Georgia...And Baghram is only one of SEVERAL planned installations to support the 'pacification' of Afghanistan...but also to "project American Power" (that's what the military guys call it) in the region.
Obama is not, I fear, 'radical' enough to insist on retrenching from that strategy. He's still an imperialist.
The only problem with Afghanistan is that you (we) gotta go across Pakistan to get there, and Pakistan is ambivalent at best about the prospects of "our" "success."
why do "we" have to "go across Pakistan to get there (Afghanistan)"??? where do you have "us" starting out from, India?
There are 2 different kinds of reality. The way things ought to be; and the way things are.
Idealistically, Obama ought to finish the war in Afghanistan and build a free democratic nation in Afghanistan for the good of the World.
Realistically, the United States has banrupted itself fighting the "War on Terror".
The wars are LOST. We need to accept this. If there is a troops surge in Afghanistan; it will be used as a cover to completely withdraw the troops.
We are bankrupt. The government needs to spend all of its resources to build tens of thousands of green factories. We have NO choice.
Ray McGovern is a really respectable dude in my opinion. Top notch American official.
He couldn't styand to be associated with the corrupt fuckers he was forced to kowtow to...
so he quit...
good man...
Obama and McCain's policy proposals regarding Afghanistan are identical.
Ask yourself this question: If Bush put 8,000 more troops in Afghanistan, would I support it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJVTkIDFQM8
Do you remember the scene in "48 Hours" where Eddie Murphy borrows Nick Nolte's gun and enters the Western-themed bar? Close to the end of the scene, he says to the bartender, "Let's see what we can Fxxx with next?". That was W; "let's see what we can Fxxx up now!" That's the Bush legacy - what can we fxxx up? - way to go W.
"What/who can we fcku up/with next" is the eternal American creed...
(Oh, but our hearts were pure...)
In the final analysis, what we've seen in the last 20 to 30 years is the equivalent of the gold rush of the 19th century. Diminishing natural resources coupled with financial greed and military superiority have lead to this.
History sure repeats itself. A century ago it was Britain and France, now the U.S. is looking to become the next empire. Except, those that run the empire are willing to sacrifice their own country and the stability of the world for their own financial gains. The Neo-Cons in particular went from a politically based ideology (of the cold war) to a financially based one.
The 'War on Terror' is just a distraction and I think the next few years will make or break the U.S..
I see that went well too, now 5 to 6 billion dollars a year, and it has now ended uo in Phoenix,Az.
bush came in to office with a very good economy, the US had money in the bank. As with All things bush tuches we are now in the shitter. But of course he said it was Clintons falt. started an oil co.it failed and his saudi friends bought him out and put him on the board after his co lost millions. bush is good at one thing, blaming others for his shit. Now again bush has started 2 wars he will not finish. One thing he will finish is the down fall of America. We are in the hole like we have never been in the histroy of our country. befor he leaves office we could be 8 to 12 trillion dollars in the hole. Millions of jobs lost and more to come,like bank of america getting 25 billion tax dollars nad now saying they are going to lay off 35,000 people, and he is not done. his midnight signings will F*#K more things up. What will he do, move into his 2.1 million dollar house with "servants" and not even lose one nights sleep.what a guy.
If Obama falls into believing in some wacky hair-brained sceme of "success" of the neo-cons bizairre policy ideas then YES it will be his downfall absolutely.
So I take it you wouldn't leave the conduct of the war to wee willy krystol(nacht).
Obama's NOT perfect, he's not a bloody machine for crying out loud alright already...he's gonna make mistakes...we ALL do...
That said...he's gonna be far...FAR superior to the nincompoop we have in office now.
And NO, Afghanistan will not be Obama's downfall.
It is comments like yours, as well as pissed off patricia below you, that pretty much sum up Obama's base. People who don't bother to learn about world affairs beyond the fact that they don't like Bush. People who are indifferent regarding policies that Obama initiates, while they would be furious if Bush instituted those same policies. Goddammit, would you all just think for yourselves and stop blindly supporting Obama?!? Don't you realize that a bomb dropped in Afghanistan by Obama is just as deadly as a bomb dropped by Bush!?!
And before someone complains about this comment being anti-Obama, it is not. It is a sobriety check.
I'm against unjust wars, like Iraq, but I think (this will upset alot of people on here) that we are fully justified to be in Afghanistan.
And Adrian...you're making a pretty sweeping statement there, by saying that mine and PoP's 2 comments sum up Obama's base...which seems to me that his base is light years ahead intellectually than is the GOP's base.
But now, I'm not so sure. Did the Afghan gov't attack us?
It was some derelicts who live in caves.
We all know Iraq was/is and always will be a massive criminal offense. On a scale so huge, it boggles the mind.
As for Afghanistan, I'm not so sure anymore.
Perhaps, we could have some diplomacy there. But that wouldn't have worked either. Not with the Taliban. I suppose we had too. But this incompetent admin, failed again.
Now the problem is growing everyday.
Maybe Afghanistan can police it's own country now.
But they did allow AQ to train and plan the attacks in their country.
I believe we must crush the people who actually planned the attack us into dust.
But also, we must look at WHY, not just how. We must understand why they want to hurt us...and then work diplomatically to prevent future attacks...meanwhile searching for and destroying those who did.
I'm not sure that Afghanistan is quite ready to police their own country just yet...but I think Iraq may be getting close.
counterpunch.com
informationclearinghouse.info
therealnews.com
democracynow.org
These are real news sources that will give you a better understanding of foreign policy beyond this game of, "my major party is slightly less evil than your major party."
Seriously, is crooksandliars committed to shilling for our glorious leader for the next 4-8 years, or are we going to stand for IDEAS?
Gotta have more than one source for news.
Obama is surrounding himself with smart people, not yes people. I think htat will go a long way in his decision making.
If your strategy is to "win hearts and minds" that has to be done in the first few years of a brutal foreign occupation NOT after 7 long years of slaughtering whole villages and families with your 'superior' airpower. The Taliban pretty much had this conflict "won" 2 years ago because they incorporated the right strategies and it would be exceedingly unlikely a foreign military occupier is going to take that advantage back from them now.
Why the hell are we in Afghanistan again?
Looking for bin Laden? That's boat has long sailed. Besides, why do we need to occupy Kabul to hunt for al qeada guys? Ah, maybe because al qeada has nothing to do with why we are in Afghanistan. The troops have been called the "pipeline protection team." Also the "poppy field security."
We got bidness to attend to in Afghanistan. That's why you hear "surge" and not "withdraw."
GET OUT NOW
GET OUT NOW
GET OUT NOW
GET OUT NOW
GET OUT NOW
GET OUT NOW
GET OUT NOW, stand back, use predators and other methods to pound and destroy every terrorist camp as it starts. Simple. Only way to win is from outside SHOOTING in.
From what I understand, ya can't win against guerilla soldiers form the air alone. Gotta have boots on the ground.
Islam and the concept of democracy do not mix, especially in Afghanistan which is historically tribal in nature. If our Government insists on meddling in Middle Eastern affairs, they should at least research the cultures thoroughly. I say let Karzai have his country, let Iraq have their country. If they don't want U.S. 'help'...then our forces should simply get out. We have no business being there. I think our government should withdraw from every country that seems to have a problem with the United States. We have enough of our own problems right now, we don't need the problems of other countries who don't like us anyway. Bring em' all home...military, corporations and civilians alike.
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