F.B.I. special agent Ali Soufan who interrogated Abu Zubaydah says torture doesn't work!
An FBI interrogator named Ali Soufan, who was involved back in 2002 goes public and blows the lid off of the Republican talking points about torture:
One of the most striking parts of the memos is the false premises on which they are based. The first, dated August 2002, grants authorization to use harsh interrogation techniques on a high-ranking terrorist, Abu Zubaydah, on the grounds that previous methods hadn’t been working. The next three memos cite the successes of those methods as a justification for their continued use. It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.
--
There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process.
--
One of the worst consequences of the use of these harsh techniques was that it reintroduced the so-called Chinese wall between the C.I.A. and F.B.I., similar to the communications obstacles that prevented us from working together to stop the 9/11 attacks. Because the bureau would not employ these problematic techniques, our agents who knew the most about the terrorists could have no part in the investigation. An F.B.I. colleague of mine who knew more about Khalid Shaikh Mohammed than anyone in the government was not allowed to speak to him.
Please read the full op-ed and because a man like Ali would never have come forward unless the endless piles of horse dung being thrown around by torture apologists, Republicans, and Liz Cheney hadn't made him gag with revulsion. He shreds every sadist talking point on this subject, and he should get a medal for coming forward.
http://washingtonindependent.com/40343/so-is-...
The North Koreans laughed at us when we confronted them on their treatemnt of those two women:
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EDNF8eBwBs&fe...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Never let the facts get in the way.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/colum...
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdbzHJNoO5o
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
It's good to know there are people who know the truth coming out in the open with it. I still am shocked that we are even having this discussion. How can people so disgusted by icky gay love and presidentially stained blue dresses embrace barbaric and cruel abuses like torture?
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
No one knows who to totally believe right now, but I feel we can trust what this agent and what he is telling us.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
If I understand what I've been hearing and reading the Bushies really weren't looking for actionable intelligence when they authorized the 'harsh interrogation' methods, they were looking for a connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda. In other words a justification or confirmation for actions they would/had take/taken. This goal is achievable by torture, just look at all the confessed witches the Inquisition had.
http://www.leadingtowar.com/?gclid=CKf_uL2Pip...
..i.e., the Iraq/al Qaeda connection, and then they found no WMD's or anything that led anyone to believe that Iraq was a DIRECT threat to us and that there really was no connection other than the imaginery one in Curveball's head as well as all the other lies and innuendoes to fly from the W White House, well then, wouldn't that make W a WAR CRIMINAL? Oh yeah, he's innocent until proven guilty on that; let the prosecutions begin!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
These "enhanced techniques" are known to produce false confessions, so I assumed they were looking for false confessions to the 9-11 attacks.
Turns out they were more "forward-looking" - looking for justifications to invade Iraq.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
..the day we were told we were invading Iraq. A friend (ex-Navy), on that day, said, as we watched the TV with the NEWS, "What happens when we don't find any WMD's? Will George Bush be arrested as a War Criminal?" Now, this was well before we learned the truth about the non-existent WMD's.
So now what, is W a War Criminal? Wasn't he a War Criminal when he invaded Iraq based on lies and innuendo?
America anxiously awaits the trial!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
... the torture evidence is falling into place.
The neo-cons are scurrying like rats in a maze, trying to find their way out. Does my heart good, finally, after all these years.
The bastards. They're gonna be checkmated before long on this torture issue.
Just like they were for the Iran-Contra atrocity, Watergate, the Savings & Loan crime, Plame outage... One or two small fries will take the blame, there might be a few slaps on the wrist and a week or two of bad press. Then in a few years Fox will hire them as experts like Ollie North and Karl Rove. (They should be call "Treason News" considering their contributors - Maybe when Texas branches off from us they'll take Fox News with them).
I mean, it's so much more important to look ahead then worry our pretty heads about atrocities of the past.
That's from 1974. Not much has changed.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
I think this is bigger than all of those, and it's gaining momentum.
But the Clinton era "We think the price is worth it" killing of a half million Iraq children apparently didn't raise many eyebrows either.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084
If Bush had gotten a bj from Gannon then we'd have a case. Unfortunately, millions of deaths, billions of dollars stolen, and numerous international war crimes committed just doesn't mean much in "Nipple-gate" America.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
It has been known since George Washington that torture is counterproductive in the long run. Ol' "Tin Eye" Stephens knew it too.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/colu...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8&fe...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
It isn't legal, it isn't ethical, it isn't Christian and it isn't productive. No wonder that Republicans and the religous right defend it.
It sure was refreshing to see an honest assessment of what is happening rather than the wall to wall republican talking points I've witnessed over the last week.
... the media to completely ignore this, just as they neglected Blair's comments that torture was unproductive and unnecessary.
And if the trolls around these parts are indicative, they're all still buying into the 'it kept us safe' garbage. I mean, come on, close to eight years ago, and they're still wetting themselves over this?
maybe torture did work as a prior thought out strategy to help rationalize/further the continuation of the war(s)/occupations. the right and some others talk about how we haven't been attacked since 9-11. they don't seem capable of speaking about the possible negative implications of what torture to these people has done to them and all of us. i feel it was a strategy from authoritarian leadership that was going to make sure the opposition stayed fully engaged in confrontation. they were NOT going to let the public interfere and denounce the rationale for these war(s).
... to suggest that this was what kept us safe is post hoc ergo propter hoc.
BECAUSE we torture, WE ARE safe.
It's not even valid to say 'what if that's really the case'?
BECAUSE I whistle Beethoven's Fifth every morning, WE HAVE NOT been attacked by aliens.
Same logical construct, but there's no question that my claim is specious, and there's no value to saying, 'what if that's really the case'?
So it was you and your whistle that kept us safe. All along I thought it was because I brushed the right side of my hair before brushing the left side.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
former cia case officer bob baer on torture:
"And torture -- I just don't think it really works. I think it works for the Egyptians, the Syrians, the Saudis, who want to scare the hell out of people. But you don't get the truth. What happens when you torture people is, they figure out what you want to hear and they tell you."
"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."
Oh goody, we're all safe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcOZ6xFxJqg
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy
"In fact, in a war like this, when we are tempted to respond in kind, we must hold ever more dearly to the values that make us Americans. Torture, or 'cruel, inhuman or degrading' conduct, are not part of our national character. Another objection is that torture doesn't work. All the literature and experts say that if we really want usable information, we should go exactly the opposite way and try to gain the trust and confidence of the prisoners. Torture will get you information, but it's not reliable. Eventually, if you don't accidentally kill them first, torture victims will tell you something just to make you stop. It may or may not be true. If you torture 100 people, you'll get 100 different stories. If you gain the confidence of 100 people, you may get one valuable story."
It seems iffy having anyone in the Navy called the Rear Admiral.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzwGfP98vGM
You can tell that singer is not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P6I4pT_tVA
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
former CIA CTC member on torture:
"I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear."
former air force interrogator and auther of How to Break a Terrorist: The U.S. Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq
"When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve. The information that you get is unreliable. ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, al Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members."
you get the torture victim to tell you what you want to hear, no matter how inaccurate or dishonest it may be. like, say, getting a torture victim to say that saddam hussein is working with al qaeda.
The worst of the lies is the bullshit phrase "Torture saves lives." A 100 years ago these sadists probably would have made a similar claim concerning lynching.
And you're right.
This should not even be something we should have to discuss.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iFIDdxibrTg/SGzcvjo...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... to be in the media and have this treated as a question with two valid and reasonable points of view.
Torture is against the law. Courts have upheld this, our military procedures acknowledge this. We have signed international agreements that ban this kind of treament of prisoners.
If anything, this unthinking fear of another terrorist attack can only guarantee that there will be one, and that we will be wholly unprepared for it, because we're pinning our hopes and safety on acting like thugs.
In another post today, a user named 'FlimFlam' made a statement that KSM's tortured testimony provided us with actionable intelligence regarding Jose Padilla. I agreed that it may have been tortured out of him and that torture was used first out of desperation by the administration. I was wrong. It was through traditional interrogation tactics that got this information, so torture was not the first step, and not how we obtained the information. Once torture was put into the equation, as the story states, there was no actionable intelligence received.
I guess they have to parade out a slew of people saying torture doesn't work before we can get around to carrying out the law. that must be it. We all know waterboarding works just dandy as torture don't we.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Yes, that's exactly what we have to do, and that's what we are doing. Every interrogation expert there is is now saying publicly that torture doesn't work, and not only doesn't provide good intelligence but creates several enemies of the U.S. for each person tortured.
We have to keep hammering away at this until it sinks into Middle America. It always takes time for things to sink in. I grew up in central Illinois, and I remember hearing about ideas and events from both coasts, but such ideas were regarded with suspicion by those who lived in the middle parts of the country. It took years and years for progressive ideas to catch hold.
Of course, "Middle America" isn't only a geographic area, it's a mindset of people who are basically good, but who, like the salt of the earth, are resistant to change. I remember older people telling me in the mid-1960s how "change for the sake of change" was bad. And, because I was a child of Middle America, it was a long time before I thought, "Hmm, so is stagnation for the sake of stagnation good, then?"
Now, with increasingly thorough mass communication, ideas are filtering into the middle faster, and more deeply. I find this quite encouraging! That woman on the talking heads show recently who said that sometimes we just want to walk on by and ignore this stuff is typical, and I can totally understand the anger of many progressives. Don't you just want to tie Dick Cheney to a chair and force him to watch, listen to, and really hear the truth about what he has done?
I sincerely hope that Sean Hannity has the balls to accept Keith Olbermann's challenge to try waterboarding. I'm not holding my breath, though...
(:>)
How in the world were contractor's, that have no developed value system in their organizations, allowed to set policy on how interrogations were to take place.
This should be a lesson that mercenaries have no place in the American military and intelligence systems. They will corrupt what little moral fabric remains in this country.
... Blackwater/Xe, their ranks include a fair amount of former SEALs and Special Forces members. Therefore, they have the experience/qualifications to conduct planning and operations.
It's the same thinking as 'a priest can't be a child molester' - entirely disconnected from reality and logic.
But so what -- they are not in the chain of command, and therefore not accountable.
If they screw up, they just say "oops, sorry, sorta broke the contract there ... shrug."
mercenaries should have no part in interrogating prisoners. nor any other part of any other conflict.
... that ONLY 3 terrorists were tortured - sorry 'enhanced interrogated'?
Ali Soufab said '...I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions...
If you need funds to pay for essentials, you have a revenue problem
If you need funds to pay for frivolity, you have a spending problem
"You said waterboarding and walling were torture! We didn't do that to those other guys, we used different methods, so it wasn't torture! Nyah! It kept us safe! Your idiots! We do it in SEER training, so it cant be torture!"
Bad spelling and punctuation deliberate.
reading at least 140 detainees had died during interrogation and there was sufficient evidence at least 16 were homocides.
Of course those articles have been cleansed from google
than his paymasters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIxwEgbpmzA
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Everybody knows torture doesn't work except the complete ignorant Reslug liars on Faux Noise and their uneducated ilk eats up their complete bullshit.
has an explanation why some, like Hannity, believe torture works:
From Countdown Transcript 4.23.09
"O‘DONNELL: No, they don‘t and I know why. There‘s no question about it. The reason Sean Hannity thinks torture is a good idea, the reason Sean Hannity thinks it works is because it would worked on him. There are two different kinds of people out there in the world, the warriors, which are a very, very tiny minority. Less than one percent of our population is ever going to face combat. Then there‘s the rest of us.
I am like Sean Hannity, one of those cowards, just like Dick Cheney, who has refused throughout my life to enter the military and ever subject myself to anything dangerous occupationally, where I might lose a tooth. That is exactly Sean Hannity‘s approach to life. And he has exactly the same cowardly fear that I do, of combat or submitting myself to anything of the kind of risk that the American military does.
[...]
But, al Qaeda, the people who have devoted their lives to destroying their enemy, the people who are willing to die in their exercises—they were all willing to die on 9/11, Sean Hannity thinks torture‘s going to work on them, because he has never, never known the kind of commitment that those people have. Nothing he‘s done in his life measures that kind of commitment that the American military has or that our enemies have. Our enemies are more committed than Sean Hannity will ever be."
If you need funds to pay for essentials, you have a revenue problem
If you need funds to pay for frivolity, you have a spending problem
Exposing this sadistic shit will totally destroy their undeserved, holier than thou, moral high ground bullshit. That's is why one of their major rationalizations is to pull as many Democrats into their shit overflowed toilet as possible, "They knew about it too!" Pathetic.
I doubt it the truth has never been a concern for the GOP. You can expect them to:
Lie,
Deny,
Defy,
and when all else fails,
Blame it on some other guy.
If "They knew about it too!" there must have been an 'it' to know about.
Sounds like an admission to me, and thanks, Party of Finger Pointers and Stoolies, for snitching off the Quislings.
me-oww!
He better change his name so we can understand it. Maybe Alex Sanders.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
I am losing my republican friends left and right. If I try to repeat anything I read here, or speak about my personal fealings on the matter, I am immediately yelled at for supporting socialism, and then it usually morphs into Obama is going to take my guns away from me.
They are pathetic. They don't want the truth, lies have been working so well for them in the past 40 years.
Repukes just can't handle the truth!! They listen to the Faux noise habitual liars and take their marching orders because they refuse to think on their own. I have stopped hanging with some Reslug friends too and I don't miss at all hearing the repeated to death Repuke talking points, line by line.
I've kicked almost all the friends I grew up with to the curb. For the reasons you stated. Fuck em. I have no use for stupidity or hypocrisy in my life.
You can not truly appreciate Agent Soufan's op ed unless you know his background. He has been an American hero for many years. Here is an excellent article about him published in the New Yorker back in 2006.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/07/10/0...
"The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile."
Napoleon to Berthier 11 Nov 1798, Corres., V, no. 3606 p. 128 quoted in - Napoleon on the Art of War
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