Neil Cavuto in screamathon with Ben Stein over our failed economy and how to repair it
By John Amato Sunday Nov 23, 2008 11:30am
Conservatives have been trying to blame Obama for the market drop ever since he won the election. What a shock, right?
Neil Cavuto and Ben Stein got into a screaming match over the state of the economy after the bailout Saturday morning on Fox's Cavuto for Business. I've never seen them go at it like that before. It started immediately when Cavuto opened up the segment by saying we've spent 2 trillion dollars so far to fix the problem, which is patently false, and Stein called him out on it. (rough transcript.)
Stein: The $2 trillion dollar number you cited at the beginning is a completely made up number, I don't know where you got it from.
We asked, no, no no Ben.,..
Cavuto: What do you think it is?
Stein: Closer to $300 billion...
Cavuto: Oh, no, no, no, Ben I gotta stop you there...
Stein: Could I answer your question?
Cavuto: When you are supporting one institution after the other ...
Stein: You are doing the classic post hoc ergo prop drop fallacy. You may as well say because there was a World Series, the market dropped 4000 points. The Federal government has to stabilize this economy.
Cavuto: No it doesn't, Ben. No, no, and by the way, we were pre-hocking on this ...
Stein: The Federal government is the only one that can stabilize this economy.
Cavuto: It is a slippery slope Ben...
Stein: Then otherwise we fall into a great depression. Maybe not a problem for you, but a problem for everybody else.
Cavuto: Oh, stop the nonsense.
Stein: It isn't nonsense.
Cavuto: Where do you draw the nonsensical line.
Stein: We go in for as much Federal stimulus as it takes keep us out of a great depression. That is basic common sense ... We need to bail out the auto companies, we need to have a massive stimulus package. This economy is about to fall off a cliff. We need major stimulus.
Cavuto attacks Pelosi too....And it goes on from there. There is great fear among economists whenever they get honest. It's no joke. Obama has inherited a nightmare. Just so you know, Cavuto was yelling at McCain's people when they tried to play with the bailout, so he has no credibility when it comes to crying about things now.
Ben Stein favors the Paul Krugman plan or if I may say, the Keynesian approach to the depression-like state of our economy. He believes, as do a lot of us, that Obama should not hold back government spending at all and help rescue the auto industry, or Armageddon will befall us. It really is that simple. And when these Conservatives talk about letting actual cities go bankrupt, well, they are insane. And many of them like Steve Forbes, who is in that camp, can just move to another city. They really want to see things get worse in our country to help Republicans...
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or if thousands upon thousands starve...
If they can get rid of the UAW...
That's the prize in the Big 3 crisis, cuz the spill-over effect on all unions would be devastating...Remember PATCO? Wasn't even a big union, but its destruction by Raygun was a bellweather for the next 30 years...
Dismantling and destroying the unions.
This is why the big three gave an appearance of being unprepared, they don't really want the money, and congress has no plans of giving them any. This bailout would affect mostly blue collar workers, unlike the banks and insurance companies, so its screw'em. Their plan is chapter 11, restructure, and eliminate the unions. The UAW has already made huge concessions. ie. their pensions and lower wages to keep the companies afloat,but that's not enough. In order to continue paying CEOs their multi-million dollar salaries and keep their privet jets they need third world slave labor. When the union worker makes less money, we all make less money.(unless your a CEO)
what if they file Chapter 7?
what does the union pay when the business is liquedated?
what if Hundai or Mitsubishi buys the Chevrolet brand?
We are past the too late phase, we are in the OH SHIT now what do we do now phase.
It was not do nothing FED or government that caused the crash of 1929, it was the easy credit to make margin calls, everyone could trade like the rich if they were willing to risk losing everything, the drop occurred on its own because of the easy credit; it was the FED's silence that helped fuel the panic which was already underway.
Here we are again but only worse, easy credit for homeowners and credit bubble in every industry 'literally', and Wall Street allowed traders to bet on peoples ability to pay their mortgage *cough*, that is unprecedented.
Do something or do nothing
If we do nothing then the weak and incompetent will be succeeded by the strong and competent companies, there will be great pain to the people and unemployment during this period it will hurt a lot until this transition is done.
If we bail out the incompetent, then we are going to issue monetary credit unlike ever before. For a while it will make things seem better or tolerable but in the end we will have printed unprecedented amounts of dollars that will have diluted our dollars value. The greenback failed, the continental failed too in this country from doing just this, printing currency. Over 3800 currencies world wide have failed from this activity, in fact all fiat currencies have failed.
How many fiat currencies have succeeded?
Zero
Our deficit spending has gotten us into terrible trouble already; we have racked up the national credit card to the tune of $53 trillion in obligations (social security, Medicaid, and Medicare) and over $11 trillion in hard debt to foreign countries.
Question
When will other countries stop loaning us money?
When does the US become insolvent?
In the 1930’s we took the gold of nations and held it ‘they call it sterilizing gold’ by holding inflation stationary so we could export to other countries competitively and it was largely the attributed cause of crash of 1929 because it undermined the balance of payments between countries. Today China does the same thing with our dollar, they sterilize the dollars value against there Yuan to make sure they can export to the US like we did to the world almost a 100 years ago. China is sitting on trillions of dollars, want to bet they just own our country on a US spending spree?
So what do we do?
Do we rack up another credit card to pay off the first credit card? What happens if China starts to slowly unload our dollars, and then Japan because we are becoming insolvent by bailing out everything? What happens when the world realizes we can never repay our massive foreign debt? Oh and what about the huge generation called the baby boomers? Where is the tipping point?
What pain will that bring us then? Will it be better or worse?
The easy answers are gone, the question is choosing between a rock and hard place. Would you like you like your balls sliced or diced? Which will hurt more?
"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 Trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted. ($2.3 Trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America.) September the 10th, 2001
CBS News covered it. Nothing since...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eve...
Video on Al Gore's Network's website:
http://current.com/items/89289802/rumsfeld_ad...
The fact $2.3 trillion could not be tracked on 9/10/01, and the media and government haven’t raised any issues about this waste since 9/11/01, shows that this money could have been used to finance any aspects of covert operations and pay off those willing to spill the beans. This is potentially the greatest amount of money that has ever gone missing in the history of the world.
.
The FED won't say where 2 trillion went but here is a chart showing what has been printed so far
http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/u...
If that doesn't make you hurl your Wheaties up I don't know what will.
Ben Stein is proof that one can be smart in one feild and stupid in another. When it comes to economics, he's very intelligent, but when it come to evolutionary biology, he's a friggin' retard.
And yes, I have seen his crappy movie. I got a free ticket from a creationist who was giving them out. It... was... awful!
But mostly, he's just a preening, posing putz...
The choice between Ben Stein and Neil Cavuto is exactly the type of choice Fox News prefers its viewers to make.
Faux = False Choice.
Truth!
If you know of better choices please by all means post them. I mean that sincerely.
Paul Krugman
Warren Buffet
Hell, I'd settle for Larry Summers.
And also for the bailout is Nouriel Roubini
Those who saw the crash coming years ago as well and are against it
Jim Rogers
Peter Schiff
Marc Faber
Ron Paul
Of those who saw it coming and seem to take the position of too little to late.
Robert Kiyosaki
Michael Maloney
Donald Trump
...and of course many more names can be listed on both sides.
...and then there are the banks themselves
Banks Admit Bailout Won't Work
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/...
In 2003 I bought a book written by Richard Duncan titled "The Dollar Crisis" in it he states "How much longer will the rest of the world be willing to accept debt instruments from the United States in exchange for real goods and services? It is only a matter of time before the United States will no longer be considered creditworthy. It is only a matter of time before the United States will not be creditworthy."
If you understand the history of money you will understand the dollar will crash, all fiat currencies crash. Thousands of fiat currencies have existed and not one has succeeded, zero, zip, nada, not a solitary example in history to show a track record of success. In the end everyone returns to gold and silver, they have for thousands of years.
Just this time.
Boy, each one of these guys has a track record of saying some really dumb stuff, but It sounds like Stein is right on this one. He must be trying to play, "Keep Ben Stein's Money"!
I don't like Cavuto's answer either but I don't think many here are looking very far down the road with Stein's solution either.
Bailing out has it's own set of problems which in the end may very well cause pain longer and harder suffering than not bailing out.
Hyperinflation becomes a huge risk the further down this road we go, all we need to do is look at Germany 1919 or Zimbabwe today, or a few years back to Hungry and the Dinar.
We really need to think on this issue, not just now but 10, 20, even 30 years from now. I think a lot of people see immediate pain and are running to the easiest answer to stop it now.
In so doing you may be bringing untold pain 10 to 20 years from now.
Personally I would rather see us cut a few notches in the belt, thin up (and seriously thin up in the government), pay down hard, and give companies big incentive to start their businesses here in the US. We will make it through and better for it.
Here, and I just heard we were worried about deflation.
Deflation is what's supposed to happen after an inflationary boom. That's why house prices are falling(to their real values) instead of the inflated values from the past decade. Unfortunately- the government doesn't like it when prices fall so that people can ACTUALLY AFFORD THE HOMES instead of having to half a million- so they are driving us down an inflationary road once again. Except this time we might not be lucky enough to get another artificial boom- but except a collapse in the value of the dollar.
The "worries" about deflation are pretty ridiculous. Falling prices improves the lives of everyone- and that's what is supposed to happen when more people are broke. Businesses will lower their prices so that people can still buy their products. But the government will tell you that's bad- and that you MUST be able to borrow money to buy a new car instead of being able to afford it with money you save. They've been doing this stuff for way too long.
These people have become dangerous. Talk about ideological blinders. They'd march the nation right off a cliff if they could. I heard the same thing from a CATO foundation guy on another show a couple of days ago. This notion that we need to just step back and let the markets sort it out is madness. 'course these are the same guys who take a "don't worry be happy" approach to global warming. The libertarian right has turned into the flat earth society of our day.
the resurrected term "Know Nothings" used to describe the Republican Right. Becuz knowin stuf is stoopit or sumthin. You betcha.
This is a crystal ball, Mike Maloney’s book (an advisor to Robert Kiyosaki) “Guide to Investing in Gold and Silver”, the title doesn’t do it justice because it is really more about this crisis and the history of money. It leans heavily on Robert Kiyosaki’s book “Prophesy” written in 2002 which covers the ERISA act of 74 and the problems the baby boomers will cause when they retire. It’s important to note Mike’s book was published on August 28, 2008 before the big stock slide so the 100% dead on detail in which has pegged this crisis to this point is very significant. This is pages 112 to 116.
We NEVER EVER LET THE MARKET WORK. Do you know why there was a housing bubble? Because after the tech bubble burst- the Fed intervened in the market because people like you said that we can't let the market sort out the madness. What happened? We got a housing bubble and an even WORSE recession after trying to stop the recession that should've happened in 2001. The people at CATO aren't exactly the guys I'd go to for advice- but letting the market work is the quickest way we can go back to having a real economy(although it is painful). Or we can continue to try and run an economy by borrowing money from the Saudi's, the Chinese, or printing it until the US dollar collapses. Which do you choose?
Democracy fails when legislatures figure out they can bribe the public using the public's money.
There simply is no political will by the people to follow or trust in the market. The amount of market distortions we have at this point are so massive it's just not possible to flip a switch and let the market really truly sort it out. A huge amount of assets and wealth on one side of the balance sheet is balanced out by huge amounts of debt on the other. You don't just get rid of debt when there is debt destruction. There is real asset loss.
And even if you allow some banks to fail and have a total collapse of the system, it is an assumption that it will rebuild any faster (or slower) than what will happen with massive government intervention. It's pure speculation that the market will fix things. Markets work when people are well informed. They don't work when people are acting neurotic and scared and if you go the road of massive debt and asset destruction people may totally give up on the idea of the market fixing anything at all.
But ultimately, there simply isn't the political will to fix this. Either the borrowing the money plan works and we skate by the skin of our teeth, or the dollar collapses (as it might have anyway) and we start over. There is no mandate to totally alter the nature of our monetary system.
Its not pure speculation that the market will fix things. Banks began to tighten their lending standards to fix it already- but the government didn't like that and called it a "credit freeze". People won't give up on the idea of the market fixing anything at all- because that is the only way things ever get fixed. There was massive asset destruction during Katrina- and private individuals have already done much more to rebuild New Orleans than the government ever did. Massive government intervention has always led to worse problems down the road- there's plenty of evidence- not assumption, that government intervention leads to slower rebuilding of the system or articial booms. The market DOES work when people are neurotic and scared- because what they do is try to save all their money for essential item that they will need. Throwing stimulus checks at people and telling them to "go out and spend for the economy" is what doesn't work.
I agree there is no political will to fix this- because congress doesn't even understand what the problems are- and they think that throwing money at it can work- but it doesn't and never did.
Thank you
Stop it. Stop that free market voodoo bullshit.
Join Ben Stein in reformed Randian free marketeers Class of 2008.
The fed, nor Fanny Mae, nor Freddie Mac caused the housing bubble. Bubbles occur all the time in the free market because of out of control speculation. This bubble was fed by out of control speculation on mortgages for out of control speculation on the housing market.
We had an oil bubble, a housing bubble, and a tech bubble, and the only one that was kept under control was the tech bubble - because it came and went while Clinton was in the white house (and the housing bubble bailed it out) When people were betting venture capital on the tech bubble, they actually were required to have the money to bet. When they were betting on the housing bubble and the oil bubble, thanks to Phil Gramm (in two seperate moves,) they were betting with markers. They were even being sold unregulated insurance on the bets they were making with IOUs. The insurance of course, because it was unregulated, was backed with IOUs.
This is exactly like the Great Depression, and we'll get out of it exactly the same way - when someone starts spending government money like crazy.
Of course, the most effective way is to invest in small businesses, research and development, and public works projects, and spend a little now to keep seniors off the cat food.
So, here's my plan: pick up the big threes' health insurance and pension costs, and start a "Manhattan Project" on global warming.
#1- there is no free-market in this country- so how could a bubble been caused by the free-market? The financial industry is one of the most heavily regulated ones there are. The fed- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ABSOLUTELY caused the housing bubble. Why would any bank care about who they loaned to when there was a complete government guarantee? When the government comes in and REMOVES risk- of course there's going to be out of control speculation. You- like many others are focusing on the symptoms of government intervention.
Every single bubble we had was a direct result of fed monetary policy. The tech bubble wasn't "Kept under control"- the Fed tried to avoid the recession then and lowered interest rates and gave us the housing bubble.
You also ignore that "spending money like crazy" is not how problems get fixed. That's exactly why we're headed for a dollar collapse. The government has no more money- they have to either borrow or print it to meet their obligations.
The free-market didn't cause this problem- because in a free-market you have absolutely no regulation on trade, no taxes, no Federal Reserve Bank, and countless other things would not exist. So if a free-market does not exist, how can you blame it on a free-market? Central planning has caused the deaths of millions and is what directly led to the Soviet Union collapsing. Lets try to learn a thing or to from that little incident
Here's a video that's been going around for awhile...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw
Listen to Stein on this one (at about the 4:00 mark). He must have realized how stupid this behavior has become. Also notice that one of the "analysts" who was telling us everything was alright back then, is one of the guys in this new video telling Stein that he's crazy. These people never learn.
I can't believe a word that drops out of Ben's mouth. I don't care what his credentials are- when you believe in wizards and space aliens that control the world- you are a nut.
are under the impression the country still believes their tripe. You lost baby, you lost big. Now we're going to try and clean up the mess you made by giving all the fat cats more meow mix than they could throw up.
After Paulson admitted his bailout was a mistake, Ben comes on to ask for more? And why is this ugly little gnome given any air time? Does he have a contract?
If we bailout the so called..."American" auto companies, they will just use it to build new factories in other countries.
don't listen to either or any of the 5 idiots you just saw in that video!
If American auto companies are bail out they will use that money to move overseas. If we do not bail them out........
Jesus H. Christ.... either way the unions loose.
What if we made the bailout contingent on keeping the jobs here? And NOT in the south where there are no unions, either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8P_GYxBJkk
i would really love to know what universe the wingnuts reside in
Right now we are slowly moving towards the old, textbook deflationary deep recession which could very easily become a depression as Stein stated. We are seeing counties, cities, and states running huge budget deficits along with reduced tax revenues. This is leading to reductions of all sorts of programs and services. In fact, I have heard of several counties in my area laying off law enforcement and releasing inmates earlier because of it.
Then, we have layoffs and business closers spanning the entire private sector. If this continues, we could see unemployment rates and crime rates rise dramatically. Obama's economic plans have their faults but if they are targeted at areas that generate revenue in the long run it may well work out. We will have to deal with increased inflation down the road but if Obama focuses that money on infrastructure, health care, manufacturing (especially manufacturing) we have a chance in my view.
wanna watch revenues go through the roof? legalize all forms of vice
fuck the right wing christians
in this way, you empty out half the prisons, create new tax revenue, and instead of people being depressed, they walk around stoned and sexually satisfied
make me king...and all of this will come true
oh, and stein is right...but only partially
the "bailouts" cannot go to these companies...look what our genius treasury sec is doing...hes helping out his friends pay off their yachts
we need massive works programs...and fuck the chicken littles screaming about communism and socialism
laissez faire capitalism is a failed policy...it has never worked
arrest all the ceo's...send them to the town square and allow the people to tar and feather them
"..the classic post hoc ergo prop drop.."?
A great moment in economic gobbleygook, or genuine insight?
Legalizing all forms of vice and then taxing them just like cigarettes or alcohol will generate a lot of revenue.
Furthermore and I agree, these bailouts can not go to companies. Especially to those companies that have no interest in even remaining competetive on the national scene. For example, the Democrats are correct in asking the CEOs of the automakers for a plan before any bailout is given. We have to face it, those automakers are losing profits because their products are not selling as well compared to the products the competition produces. The automakers need to come up with new products that people will actually buy. Until that happens, any bailout given will simply be used up to cover increasing expenses by those automakers and they will be right back asking for another once that bailout is used up.
That's what they did when they started making the large SUVs.
the electric car and hybrids???
according to george will...giving a tax break for the volt is bribery to buy a car no one wants...why isnt that the same for the tax breaks given for the suv when it first came on the market
the suv's should never have been built....ever...unless they had been made to be fuel efficient...which they could have been...but there was no incentive to do so
Yet, now those SUVs are not selling as they once were and they are losing money because of it. To put it bluntly, the automakers need to be ahead of the game, not behind it. In a sense, that is what they Democrats are asking for in a new plan.
The only thing that brought down the demand for SUVs was the price of gasoline. If you still think their is an oil shortage, I've got a bridge to nowhere to sell you. We've been played.
...to each of the companies to ensure the money is used appropriately?? I remember that after 9/11, a persone who was called a "master" was empowered to distribute the funds to victims based upon certain formulas and other factors.
I don't know how well that actually worked out, but the concept seems like a good on. a) get viable plans from the CEO's, b) put someone a "master" inside the henhouse from the beginning to watch what they're doing.
It is fun watching them bash each other but they have no credibility.
Listen to the folks that predicted this meltdown.
before someone noted the absolutely hilarious, childish group temper tantrum that was this program segment. Maybe they had to scream because Fixed Noise's viewers are older and hard of hearing.
We need to make Fox just irrelevant and be dismissive of them. They are
just more dinosaurs kicking and screaming as they see their stupid ideas blow up in their faces. The GOP is no longer relevant. They have old white people ideas. Even the Young Republicans have old party ideas.
All their screaming and yelling won't help. Actually their Faux News has become quite comedic.
He has no credibility period. Either of them. Together they're like a comedy team. They should be doing three shows a day at the 'creationism' museum. LOL!
this morning i heard shelby remark that obama must not rollback those tax cuts for the wealthy...
then i catch this headline on the google news:
Obama may delay tax-cut rollback for wealthy
Reuters - ...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - US President-elect Barack Obama may consider delaying an election promise - to roll back tax cuts on high-income Americans - as part of his economic recovery strategy, two aides said on Sunday.
it's actually not as bad as the headline reads - MAYBE...
but why even consider it?
WE NEED THAT MONEY. THE WEALTHY DON'T.
not?
do you really think that bush has totally opened the books to the transistion team?
obama also reads the polls...he knows that the american people are willing to wait for both tax cuts and rollbacks depending on the state of the economy
i have a suggestion for the new president...repeal taxes on personal savings accounts up to a certain ammount
we must stimulate savings
if people cannot benefit by saving...they wont
How many people have savings accounts anymore! I think Americans actually have negative savings as a matter of fact.
Smart Americans save in gold or silver because its non taxable!
I dont trust banks anyway!
when reagan began taxing personal savings accounts of any worth...that is when people stopped saving
so keep your money under your mattress...be a fool
There may be more to this than meets the eye. Given this current, seemingly deflationary spiral we are in. A tax hike (which is technically what they would be) has the potential to make the situation worse as many of the wealthy are also business owners. Furthermore, most of the wealthy will simply shift their personal assets overseas to undisclosed foreign accounts. Obama needs to work from the bottom up, not from the top down in my view. If his plan can produce more jobs and generate more revenue then Governments at all levels can tax that. Once the economy stablizes then let Bush's tax policy fall by the wayside.
Well, what you say is true enough on the surface, but it's not really a good idea to raise taxes during a time when markets are this volatile. I think we should realign our taxes in a more realistic way, but we need crisis management at this point, not tax law.
Why do people think that govt can save the economy with a massive stimulus plan?
Do people think that the govt actually has some money hidden somewhere that they can just whip out in case of an emergency?
How many people think the the govt will begin to start emptying Fort Knox soon to pay for this stimulus plan.
How many people here know that just printing money to pay people to re-build infrastructure and tallying that money into the already huge national debt will only devalue the dollar and increase taxes?
but printing money to bailout the fat cats on wallstreet and fight an illegal and immoral occupation hasnt done exactly the same thing?
take this shit to redstate
if you dont understand how going into debt in order to invest in our future is a good thing...then you are a worthless human being
The key is to invest in the FUTURE NOT the PAST! And the American auto industry is a thing of the past. Maybe you can afford to drive a vehicle that gets less then 20 MPG but most Americans can't. Nor can our environment stand it either.
You can buy a german-engineered mid-size car that gets the same highway mileage as a Toyota Camry Hybrid, for $5,000 less than the price of the Camry.
Where?
Your (GM owned) Saturn dealership.
At any given time, GM has the #1 or #2 best-selling small car in Europe.
I guess Europeans are just stupid. Either that or they haven't been sucked into the "everything American-made sucks" mantra of the uninformed American consumer. Many American cars are more reliable and last longer than their fancy BMW and VW counterparts. Funny how you never hear people saying what crap the Beemers and Veedubs are.
..harsh, Uncle Joe. There are lots of folks who just don't understand how the monetary system "works." Doesn't mean they're worthless - just a little slow.
I hope they send around emails to notify all of us when they open Ft. Knox ....heh, heh.!
I beg to disagree! I belive I demonstrated a complete understanding of the money system! I know damn well that Fort Knox is empty...just like Americans savings accounts are.
you just were a little slow to see my sarcasm thats all!
What about putting your children in debt for something that might not work?
putting tons of insurmountable debt on children yet to be born is something that worthless humans do.
one of the reasons why I'm not entirely bothered by the idea of cancelling all debts older than 19 years, and getting rid of social security. all of those people on social security were the ones who supported those policies, supported dumping my generation with this debt and making me pay for their excessive spending. and now it's the fuckin baby boomers who want to send us further into debt. screw them and their universal health care. pay your own way instead of looking for entitlements from other people.
Debt to what country? China who already holds trillions of sterilized dollars? In 2005 the interest we paid on foreign debt topped $114 billion, that is $310 million a day, or $1 dollar for every breathing person in the US. On the debt alone!
Have you thought of the $53 trillion in entitlements just now starting to get paid out to a baby boom generation by a signifcantly smaller Gen-X? Each year for many years will get larger and larger and larger. Where is there retirement? Wrapped up in mutual funds in the falling anvil we call the stock market. There are more sellers than buyers.
To help our future you need to look further ahead, right now you are looking at the pain of today. Call it investment if you like, reality is we will borrow the money from some foreign interest, that is assuming we can find a foreign interest who is willing to risk their purse on our inability to pay back the $11 trillion we owe so far.
If you don't look further down the road, today's pain will become tomorrows writhing agony and then we all will be worthless human beings.
It's funny to see Cavuto still towing the "free market is god" meme from the GOP.
Especially when the GOP never really cared about the free-market.
I have mixed feelings about the auto bailout.
The turds running them decided to build SUV's when the rest of the world was demanding more fuel efficient cars. I guess the rest of the world were a bunch of "liberal, socialist pansies". The CEO's bought into the "bigger is better and dumber" creed that has affected the US for the last 25 years or so. Now no one wants their crap.
The market has decided!
or werent you aware that the bushies and the rubber stamp repug congress provided tax incentives to businesses that bought suv's
why would the auto companies build something when there was no incentive to do so?
go and watch, who killed the electric car
Soon the folks over at FOX will start eating their young.
The amount spent is north of 2 trillion dollars. The fed balance sheet has gone up 1.4 trillion dollars in 7 weeks...
That doesn't count the 700 billion bailout or the FDIC takeovers or the government guarantees of Freddy or Fanny or AIG or many more.
The truth is there are over one Quadrillion derivatives outstanding....they are bets on bets and backed up by insolvent financial institutions. There is no saving this mess. They can only delay or slow the speed at which the economy and the financial institutions come apart.
Ben is espousing the Keynesian school of economics...that has been the prevalent monetary thought since the Fed was created in 1913...it is a debt based system that encourages inflation to keep the system working...but the fact is it steals the wealth of the nation through hidden taxation...or inflation.
The answer lies in the Misses school of economic theory. That is a stable money system where the money is backed by something of value...like gold. It limits the government's ability to tax the people by the hidden means of running deficits.
They are both partially correct and incorrect.
The real truth is it will not make any difference in the end. The system is broken and it is currently collapsing and their is nothing that will save it.
Guarantees are not the same thing as actual money spent. And while from an epistemological point of view Austrian school and Misses have interesting notions about certain concepts, its inability to explain and predict make it more mystical than anything else that's out there. And faith based economics is not where we should be going in.
It sounds compelling to say we need a stable money system based on some kind of metallic or commodities standard. But there is no evidence it must be that way. Even that school says that recessions are the natural result of booms. And that's also unproven and unexplained why it is natural, and exactly how it occurs. Whey must investment compression lead to such excessive and unused labor/manufacturing capacity? Well, it's not explained in these economic schools. Not in a compelling way.
Resign yourselves to the fact we don't know shit. That's a big part of the problem.
The Austrian theory of the business cycle completely predicted this inflationary bubble to burst. Its not "faith based economics"-its real economics.
How can you say there is no evidence that we need a stable money system? There is countless evidence of inflationary problems due to a horible monetary policy- look at zimbabwe's current problem. Its not unproven- its not unexplained- you just haven't educated yourself. There's plenty of material to read if you really want to on www.mises.org . The austrian school says that recessions are a natural result of ARTIFICIAL booms- that is- booms that were created due to Federal Reserve policy along with congressional spending.
Its ok to be ignorant about something- but you can always learn. So instead of complaining about the fact that "You don't know shit"- just take the time to actually read about real economics and you'll understand.
Economics fight! Fight! Fight!
I love your website and most of your politics.
But I have to laugh (at no offense to you) when you say you favor the "Keynesian approach". This is exactly the monetary philosophy that created this crisis.
Are you aware that Economic Integration is advanced by Military Keynesianism and that all the so-called solutions in this crisis are offered by those same individuals who caused it.
This is not about partisan politics. This is about economic theory and last I checked it was those of the Austrian School who were predicting this chaos, not the Keynesians.
Though I didn't know how bad it would get.
so you must have converted your wealth into gold and silver coin eh? I trust you didnt lose too much in that old 401-k plan I hope!
What are your predictions for oil? ...wil gasoline remain cheap until the new year?
What wealth?
Wealth is aquired by gettin someone to pay you for something of value.
or investing in something of value.
Roubini predicted this, and he's generally Keynesian.
Gold-backed currencies are also susceptible to economic issues, which existed in all its forms prior to the creation of the Fed. What got away from us is the part of the system with no clearinghouse or regulation whatsoever, and that's the CDO/CDS market. A similar problem arose in the late '80s due to lack of regulation in the futures market. But the instruments being traded this time are being used in all parts of the systems. Heck, some munis bought mortgage-backed securities rated AAA by people who were basically lying about their value.
BTW, gold only has value because of the market. Good luck trying to eat gold. It may or may not be accepted as a form of value if everything collapses. It doesn't have an intrinsic value that's anywhere near $700/oz.
"rescue the auto industry, or Armageddon will befall us"
Way to play the fear card there Amato!!! You sure have changed an awful lot since I first began reading this blog back in it's earliest days.
Just for the fuck of it how about we create a new transportation industry not dependent on foriegn oil? Bailing out the current American auto industry is a guarenteed way to destroy the unions you alledge to be worried about because the American auto industry as we know it IS dead no matter how much money you pump into them. All it will do is delay the inevitable move to sustainable transportation modes. But by using the a bailout of the industry you'll tie those unions to that end of the industry. Right now we are in a greatly unique position of having the opportunity to mnove forward with a new transportation industry and a new GREEN auto workers union if we don't cling to the past status que as if our lifes depended on it. It doesn't! What our lifes depend on is moving forward into the 21st century instead of clinging to familar features of the late 19th and early 20th century which is where the American auto industry is.
Cavuto is a fn crackpot. He couldn't pay his dinner? Bullshit. He can go fuck himself. Ben Stein's problem is lack of consequences. Where are the consequences for companies that need bailing out because of bad business decisions. They over leveraged, took risks, made shit tons of money and then poof, it turned into a problem. They do want privatized profit and socialized losses.
How do we rectify that with an economy that is collapsing? How do we really pay for this? It's not fair that the previous generation has encumbered today's generation with their debts, and now this generation is looking to stick the next generation with even more. That too isn't fair.
We need a complete alteration of our tax code, and economy with the proper incentives for savings and real capitalism. We don't have capitalism here anymore. Where's the capital? It's all debt now. We're the world's largest debtor. We need to get out of this.
And what roll does China have to play in this? Their currency is worth way more than they've price fixed it at. That's a huge part of why we owe them so much money on paper.
Why do Kneel Cavuto Conservatives hate America?
... uncle joe and joe o. -
though i should've known better to step into this topic...
numbers give me a headache... time to move on...
Trying to find possible scenarios are reasons behind particular economic policy moves gives me a headache sometimes to so your not alone. lol
policies. They aren't bringing out the military against the people of the US yet, just using economic shock therapy to instill fear and disorientation.
The problem is, with George W Shrub still in charge, the danger of a miscalculation in the dose of shock that we can tolerate is a little problematic. If you all remember, he does not have the best track record for judgment and his college record suggests he is not the brightest bulb in the pack. So, we may be looking at a lethal dose of shock therapy, administered by the Chimp in Chief.
Would you prefer your dose with or without the cathartic?
I prefer the approach outlined in the NYT Op-Ed yesterday. It's time for Cheney and Bush to resign, clear the way for someone with both a brain and integrity. Oh, wait, I forgot. He has thousands to pardon before he sleeps.
well heres where the rubbers meeting the road, thought everyone had died, but really if i was to invest my money in something id buy water , now thiers something when it runs out will be worth a bunch, cars not so much,
So it seems like people either want these businesses to go out of business (fuck 'em approach), and the other camp wants to bail them out (the prevent Armageddon approach).
Why not both? Allow bankruptcy to occur, and then the government creates a new corporation in which it owns all the shares, buys up the assets, and re-hires the workers. (Of course, knowing this government, they'd keep the unions intact, which they shouldn't for the same reason why they should dump the executives of these companies). So wipe out the old GM debts, shareholders, and maybe their bondholders too (depends on what debts need to be wiped out and what's left). Now a new company with new leadership, with the point of making better products, increasing capital, and eventually, say 10 years, the government starts to trickle sell off the stock onto the market, divesting itself entirely.
This bullshit of dumping in money into private businesses to let their obviously incompetent leadership to keep running it is nutso. I would like to see those people disenfranchised. Get rid of them. Same with their fuckin greedy union workers who get paid higher than market value, due to being a government protected racket.
If it weren't for unions, you probably wouldn't be getting a living wage either.
Workers for Toyota and Honda get paid only slightly less than someone at GM. Those workers, in the U.S. have consistently voted down the formation of a union.
GM makes crappy cars, is operated by bullies, which is why the unions have created their own cartel of bullies. It's an adversarial relationship.
Federal racketeering laws expressly have an exemption for unions, because if they didn't, they'd be considered as illegal as any other racket.
You are full of crap.
Way to be an intellectual. Go read the Federal racketeering laws for yourself. And a cursory google search will reveal that U.S. workers, working for Toyota and Honda do earn living wages, and have voted down forming unions.
The unions are one side of the equation (the other being the executives) that have fucked U.S. auto makers. Those companies do not have the right to exist. And their workers do not have the right to a job. Certainly not at taxpayer expense. There are other companies building cars, even right here in the U.S. that people are willing to buy and pay for.
The foreign states pay for the health care and give less coverage, the cost of living is lower in the southern states and the profits of those companies goes off shore also. Many of those companies are supported by their government by subsidies. Again you are full of crap. JD Powers put GM vehicles ahead of Toyota. Now, if you have saome facts, bring them on.
in 1976 jap crap was the word. anyone who didnt listen to that phrase and bought the 76 Celica got in at the beginning, i sold mine with 400,000 miles on it. BTW my 72 ford truck favorite all time vehicle. just not as reliable or mechanically sound.
any way.
Jap = Quality now
Big 3 less money but biger and more confortable. Just a quality trade off.
Ford "Quality Job one" tag line from the 90's now they're paying for it. Fool me once...
GM has maybe 3 models that are doing better. Their diversity pales in comparison to Toyota. In order for GM to do better in a global market, they need to be less dependent on the American economy, and again that's Toyota so far.
Toyota's profits globally go back to Japan, and GM's profits globally come back here. Except they seem to be having a problem making a profit, so only American's are being asked to bail them out. What's your point?
You're invited to provide a cite for the claim that Japanese government pays for the health car of its U.S. auto workers, working at their plants here.
And just because the Japanese government steals from its citizens to pay for everyone's health care in that country, does not mean it's fair or appropriate to steal from others to make it work here. This government has an amazing history of mismanaging funds, how anyone would conclude its trust worthy to get involved in medicine is beyond me.
if the union was sucessfull would employees have been more productive? would the Product have been better?
Failed UAW union organiser 2000 Jet engine Factory arizona.
what would you say if you were to find out American OWNED machanical engineering / Manufacturing companies have NOT spent resorces on NEW engineering. they continue to re-engineer 1960's technology. They are Living off the FAT from the WW2 Legacy income.
Unions are at the end of their cycle. now they need to change their message. new workers dont remember the 1940's working conditions. UAW organiser in 2000 at Aerospace plant in Phoenix AZ.
new workers dont remember the 1940's working conditions.
I have a feeling "new workers" are going to be redefining downward what is acceptible working conditions throughout the next couple decades. We will return to self-sufficiency, but we're not talking increasing wealth or standard of living. I also have a feeling we're going to be seeing more unionizing.
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc"
Ben Stein went off on Cavuto,
To cover for crooks as his goal.
Neil said I have one request,
Now that's off of your chest,
Please stop talking out of your asshole.
In his remarks to The Executives' Club of Chicago, Bank of America's CEO & President Kenneth Lewis discusses the state of the recessionary economy cspan.org
Kenneth Lewis was for a type of "prepackaged" bankruptsy 13, but as he said, now he's convinced he's not sure Big 3 can survive.
Seems to me maybe it's a close call. Not sure what the answer is, but to suggest the "conservatives are blaming obama???? ha-ha Sounds like pre emptive whining. I'm afraid someone may call him... dare I say Patriotic. or e'hem Un-Patriotic. (ooooooh a name)
I just saw the replay of the whole show, they did have a good passionate debate of two sides of a situations very few if any could accurately predict.
as for the Pelosi attack??? please even David letterman is more harsh than that.
Bail out... I sent Nancy Pelosi my Dinner bill. I want a bail out too. Small joke. I'm sending my breakfast bill to Pres Bush.
passionate Debate is funnnnnn, let us not whine on behalf of our favorite team Logo. Dem or Repub.
well i'm going to work hard and find someone who wants to pay me for my service. so i can pay more taxes to cover the economic bail out. hope its temporary. ;-)
Fox Noise indeed. On Fox it's not about being right, it's about being loudest. Utter nonsense.
I am genuinely interested in learning why Keynesianism is better than the Austrian School of economic thought.
Here's a few reasons I think it's not -
1) Our economic policy is based on The Theory of Economic Integration, which was written in 1961 by World Bank advisor Bela Balassa. When people like Dr. Robert Pastor and Vicente Fox talk about "deepening economic integration", this is what they are referring to.
Balassa condensed the concept into 6 steps, the first two being free trade agreements like GATT, NAFTA, CAFTA etc. The third is a customs union which Dr. Pastor has advocated on CNN. The 4th is a common market, the 5th is a monetary union (surprise) and the 6th is complete economic integration, or the creation of supranational states (e.g. failed Treaty of Lisbon).
Thus when Barack Obama says he sees no evidence of a "North American -- uhhhh uhhhh what'd you call it -- oh Union" and then immediately follows with a statement regarding NAFTA, you wonder if he is either very clever or tragically ignorant. (To clarify, NAFTA is the first step in creating political unions, which exist on every continent except North American and Antarctica. It's like saying, I lit the match but I don't know how the fire started.)
2) Before Economic Integration, this idea was known as the Open Conspiracy. This was the title of a book written by HG Wells. It essentially said that the answer to world peace was world government. Wells was a member of the Fabian Society, which believes in a gradual transition to socialism rather than revolutionary. Wells later wrote a book, The New World Order on the same idea.
Fabian politicians today include Tony Blair (a member) and Bill Clinton, who have both promoted the Third Way which is a mix of socialism and capitalism.
Watch the DLC roundtable with Clinton and Blair as they gush about the Third Way -- http://www.connectlive.com/events/dlc/dlc-apr...
If you research the Third Way, it largely refers to Fabian Socialism. The Fabian Society published a book entitled The Third Way by Tony Blair.
In 1936, David Rockefeller wrote his senior thesis at Harvard on Fabian Socialism. Thus it is this idea -- the Open Conspiracy / The Third Way / Economic Integration / A New World Order -- that is the agenda of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).
The CFR's Think Tank is called The David Rockefeller Studies Program, he is their Chairman Emeritus and their headquarters in NYC is a former Standard Oil Executive's residence.
Thus, through the Federal Reserve's monetary policies, the CFR creates a climate for economic integration by debasing the currency via military Keynesianism. This planned crisis is merely a justification for deeper economic integration.
Maybe it's good or maybe it's not, but we should at least accept it's real. Vicente Fox has only said repeatedly on TV and in speeches and in his autobiography that he believes we should create a EU-styled North American Union. And this is enabled by the Federal Reserve's policies and stated clearly in the CFR's publications.
3) None of this is evil per se, it's actually intellectual and inevitable to try to social engineer society on such a level for legitimate benefit. However, starting in the early 1900s, the intellectuals in the US conceived that war was the greatest way to change society thus how do they start wars -- infiltrate the State Dept (verified in Carnegie Archives NYU, House of Representatives Archives etc).
If you look at the leadership of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the State Dept, you can see its mirrored. They believed world peace (via the League of Nations and later the UN) was possible through war and therefore provoked wars. Even better, creating a military industrial complex that compounds a never ending defense sector is useful for debasing the currency in order to achieve the 5th step of economic integration.
You can deny this but all of it is well documented. And perhaps it is good. But at least lets debate it. Globalization is bigger than the CFR and David Rockefeller. There are alternative ideas for globalism than this endless war for collectivist change.
--------------------
Of course, it was Thomas Jefferson who founded the Democrat party. He was against Big Government, a Central Bank and a National Debt. He was a deist but recognized that the classic liberal philosophy (i.e. Jeffersonian Republicanism) was perhaps divine in nature (see the Indefinite Perfectibility of Man, William Godwin & Adam Weishaupt).
Jefferson didn't believe Jesus was the son of God but he was aware that Jesus represented the ultimate political philosophy of the Indefinite Perfectibility of Man. As Jefferson wrote: "Wishaupt believes that to promote this perfection of the human character was the object of Jesus Christ. That his intention was simply to reinstate natural religion, & by diffusing the light of his morality, to teach us to govern ourselves. "
Thus, it seems like your party's founder and Jesus himself would be very against Keynesianism.
I dont know too much about those two econonomic schools of thought but I do know that if we got rid of the federal reserve corporation...it would help a lot with the interest we pay these international bankers.
I say eliminate the middleman Burnbanke ...lets get rid of the federal reserve first print our own money...then talk about Keynesian vs. Austrian
certainly higher than they are now.
Without the Federal Reserve Corporation there would be no Federal Reserve Insurance that protects all our deposits into banks.
Without that, bank failures could literally wipe out the savings and money of people who played by the rules. And if people no longer could trust the banks to make their deposits, the cash flow that makes borrowing by other people that much harder.
And if the GNP essentially fails, our currency value fails with it, since it is based on the GNP, not precious metals. That would result in hyper-inflation.
Without fractional reserve banking, there would be no risk to a bank's liquidity thus everyone's deposits are protected.
With it, the banks literally wipe out the savings and money of people who played by the rules by printing currency in excess of GDP, resulting in inflation. And if the markets no longer trust the billions of FED notes dumped overseas, we integrate our economies and form new fiat monetary unions.
80 cents of every fake dollar we spend goes to energy derived from fragmented sources and used in inefficient ways. Perhaps we wouldn't even need so much money if we didn't practice planned obsolence in everything we built.
Actually, that's Democratic Party or Democrats. As for Adam Weishaupt he was the founder of the Illuminati and hardly a creditable source.
And orthodox Christianity does NOT believe in the perfectability of man, but the power of Grace and the need for a messiah. If we were perfect such a need wouldn't exist.
Thomas Jefferson wasn't a credible source?
Library of Congress --
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mtj:@field(DOCID+@lit(tj090050))
How about George Washington?
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field(DOCID+@lit(gw360395))
And remember the Jacobin's original name was the Society of the Friends of the Constitution -- they were fighting for Constitutional Republics, that's why Jefferson was called a Jacobin. The conspiracy against all government, as Jefferson wrote, was classical liberalism personified.
And clearly, President Washington associates the Illuminati with Jacobinism and endorses it's spread in the US. Jefferson said the Jacobin's struggle and the French Revolution was in the spirit of America's. Even the person who wrote the Preamble to the US Constitution was a Jacobin.
200 years ago an American Jacobin was essentially synonymous with Republican, which was the original name of the Democratic party.
The Illumanati were seen as trying to spread the French Revolution, which of course was no longer desired by most once the reign of terror started.
No one argued that Jefferson wasn't creditable, only that his view on the perfectability of man was reflective of his non-orthodox theism. The reference to lack of creditabily was to Weishaupt. His movement dispersed almost immediately upon his death.
Washington wasn't even brought up, but it is of note that he's supposedly was the head of his own chapter of Freemasonry, which was less about Revolution than in Constitutionality and limitations on Aristocrats and other government officials.
It's probably no coincidence that the Austrian School of Economics grew in the world-wide environment of Social Darwinists.
Actually the original name for the Democrats was Democratic-Republican.
Now I have to decide whether to watch the movie MASH or perhaps more of Sheena of the Jungle.
The French Revolution had many positive effects. The economic integration of Europe is trying to reverse those effects, as several MEPs have noted.
Weishaupt's philosophy was bigger than the Bavarian Illuminati. Washington wrote himself that the ideas had spread in the US so they likely evolved into other forms.
And Madison and Jefferson founded the party as the Republican Party. From Wikipedia --
Thomas Jefferson to President Washington, May 23 1792 "The republican party, who wish to preserve the government in its present form, are fewer in number. They are fewer even when joined by the two, three, or half dozen anti-federalists,..."
Thomas Jefferson to John Melish, January 13 1813. "The party called republican is steadily for the support of the present constitution"
Aside from all that, the point is Jefferson would be against the Federal Reserve, which has a political agenda (economic integration) and thus if Obama's presidency is a continuation of the Third Way the natural result will be deeper economic integration and eventual political unions (more world government). Maybe it's good but can't we at least debate it?
The big debate of the era was whether to have a centralized banking structure or not. Most, not just Jefferson, did not want a Bank of the United States. Jefferson's opposition would've been that it would make it more difficult for farmers and small businessmen to get loans. So they were largely broken up into regional banks under private control. But the 19th century had numermous banks runs and depressions, where people who used the banks to deposit money could be literally wiped out. So in the aftermath of the collapse of the stockmarket preceding The Great Depression, the Federal Reserve started guaranteeing deposits to encourage people not to go back to burying their money in the backyard or under their mattresses. So banks are still largely regional, and privately owned, but regulated by the federal government not to take unnecessary risks with other people's money. But after the republicans took over Congress in 1994 they started pressuring to remove the Glass Steagal act,then under unfinanced spending on the parts of Reagan and both Bushes and lack of regulatory oversight (government isn't the solution, government is the problem), we have our present situation.
All the things you mentioned you could be attained without a private central bank.
The FED may be good in some aspects, but they are connected to the CFR which has a specific political agenda, one that is aided by monetary policy. And since few news outlets talks about this agenda (except for the CFR's Foreign Affairs journal), most are largely unaware of it.
Even the FED's own educational site talks about how printing fiat money in excess (i.e. inflation) led to the saying "not worth a continental" regarding our first paper currency. It talks about how the first central bank was the largest corporation in the US and was dominated by the money interests. It says that Jackson's attack on the "banker-controlled power touched a popular nerve with Americans" -- so if then why not now?
http://www.federalreserveeducation.org/fed101...
And check out www.MeetTheFed.com. This Chicago FED Spokesman talks about how they are a private company that keeps printing money for 7-9 cents a bill and then sends them overseas for something of $100 of value (or whatever bill) and they keep doing it over and over since the notes never come back. He also said that after the FED sold all their gold to the Treasury for 20,000 $100,000 bills, they burned them all but 12 after realizing they were gold certificates.
Or are we supposed to believe that out of all the financial-related companies, the biggest, the most powerful and the most unknown -- the Federal Reserve -- never committed one financial crime?
They've never been audited and they have a license to print money out of thin air. Yah, surely they've never done anything to enrich themselves at the expense of the public.
so im guessing the investing in the water thinggys not popular, with the uptown crowd , well how about we look at the fortunes of americas workforce lets go back say 60 yrs back to when the rich boys owned the workers just before the union were going good, you know back when the guys hung out in front of the factorys and docks waiting for the man whod come out to let them beg for a days work if theyd kick back an hours pay to work that day, or how about if thier was no compitition from the unions would toyota or saturn be paying good wages now , nah the corporations are big hearted they love thier workers and surely wouldnt screw a working man ,now about that clean water ,whos for it!
It will be great! ...just like the housing bubble huh? what about when that one pops?
dont call me pops unless you know i was humping yo mama sonny!
Ben Stein supported the Republcan polciy from day one and benefitted greatly with the massive stealing. Now he's all about repair now that it's hit his pocket and the money he stole. Ben not worry about anyone from the Obama/Biden Administration calling him for his opinion.
"You are doing the classic post hoc ergo prop drop fallacy.."
I put no stock in this crock pot stop gap pitty pap hippity hop slop Ben.
I dont know what you just said but i like it!
I am betting Ben Steins portfolio got real small and just keeps getting smaller day by day. :P
how bout we take some of the Nuclear engines from navy boats and make some nuclear trains?
I've been pondering for a year now???
all we need is a spill in the middle of a residential area, or in the downtown of a major city. nuclear energy is expensive and it's not at all environmental.
How often do you see a spill on Navy boats?
It has happened, rarely. Fortunately they're surrounded by tons of water, and haven't been at port.
How often do you see trains in accidents or derail? Enough that if they were loaded up with nuclear fuel it would be a big, big problem and that would instantly be the end of that moronic experiment.
Wow name calling already???
How big are the units that had Accidents?
50,000 died from driving. Mite be a viable option???
worthy of... 5 minutes of thought?
is it dangerouse on the boats and Submarines?
here is a non polluting non nuclear heat energy source. perfect for trains or households ect..ect...been watching this company a couple years now. Its the only thing that gives me any hope.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/01/smallbusiness...
electric trains, stationary nuclear power plants supply the power, which are run by competent and caring people, watched closely by a politically uncompromised regulatory agency.
How about this- For all of you that care so much about the big 3 and want to bail them out. Why don't you DONATE to them yourself? Don't have enough money? Set up a charity organization and convince everyone you know to pour more money into companies that already lost billions.
I don't care about the big 3- they can go bankrupt- and someone else will buy the factories- get rid of all the horrible management- and turn it into a real auto-industry. If you care about them so much- use your own money to bail them out- not mine. I'm running a small business that employs about 6 people- why not bail me out too? Of course not.
And I'm really sick of all this nonsense making it sound like the union workers at the big 3 are the most important people in this country. Making $40-$50 an hour along with some of the largest in benefits doesn't make you an american hero. I wonder how many here would be for a "Walmart" bailout if they had financial troubles seeing as they employ more workers than the big 3 combined.
You don't think anyone is bailing you out? Whenever someone buys your product or uses your service it is the public bailing you out.
it's a voluntary transaction either way. no one has to buy a product or service they don't approve of.
Except in a bailout. In that case you ARE compelled to buy into the existence of the product or service. WITHOUT getting any product! And it's NOT voluntary!
yeah exactly.
if the economy were doing really well and yet GM was in the pisser, you know government would be saying, "well it's only $25 billion, and we're in the black right now, so obviously we can afford to give it to them."
No matter what they'd be looking for a bailout. So when exactly are there consequences for these companies who aren't performing? When do we allow them, though actions like this, to get 'too big to fail' and then let them conglomerate and get even bigger?
I hope "to big to fail" is prevented from here on out.
bail out the big 3. then Sell Pontiac to Microsoft, Oldmobile to Apple. Or maybe someone like Eclips of albequerque gets mercury.
the Future of air transportation??? http://www.eclipseaviation.com/
Bail them out. Let the status quo stay the same. It's great that they employ so many, building stuff nobody wants. Let them keep doing it. It makes perfect economical sense. Stay tuned next week when the governments of the world are going to bail out the Hollow Earth industry.
Where have I heard this one before? Oh that's right, it was the Marxists telling us how Marxism has never really been allowed to work because we've never had "true" Marxism. Face it: over the past several decades the government has moved out of the way. It has gotten less intrusve and become more free-market oriented. The net result is this disaster that has befallen us.
What we need to do is move away from the absurd fantasies of utopians, whether it be Marxist or Libertarians and get some pragmatic adults to attack the problem. Thankfully, that appear to be exactly what Obama intends to do. let's just hope the catacylsm doesn't sink us before inauguration day in January.
i see some anti FOX chatter. are they really not FAIR and Ballanced?
Seems this Blog is a testimony to just that
119 comments and no one has mentioned the link does not work?
[Guess not. I just sent an email at 2:30 pm PST-Sitemonitor]
Fixed now, real quick. Good work. Thanks.
I would agree with Ben Stein on anything.
Sorry if this has already been mentioned.
Stein did not say post hoc ergo prop drop fallacy
He clearly said Post hoc ergo propter hoc, " Latin for "after this, therefore because (on account) of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy cum hoc ergo propter hoc, in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection. Most familiarly, many superstitious beliefs and magical thinking arise from this fallacy."
As said above, they are going to hand over the money regardless.
/cynical? yep
I think Stein and Cavuto should go into business together. Stein can do whatever it is he does, and Cavuto can be in charge of the parking lot.
Why are we talking about Ben Stein? The man has repeatedly proven himself irrelevant to any intelligent discussion. The only tv personality wrong more often than Stein would have to be William Kristol.
I don't have any argument about using humor to illustrate serious political or philosophical ideas, but when one of the people in the discussion is himself a joke...
So I can guess who on the clip is an economist, and who is a braying jackass without a program.
I'm surprised I would agree with ben stein on anything. The GNP is made up of only three parts: the household, business, and government. The Household is 2/3 of the GNP, probably because business people have their own homes and families. If the first two are faltering the government has to step in or the total collapse of the GNP would be the result, i.e. economic depression.
Actually I find the errors of post hoc propter ergo hoc to be common to the arguments of conservative groups, of which stein is a part, but they also employ Argumentum ad Reductio, Tu Quoque and Petitio Principii, while accusing their opposition incorrectly of the Argumentum ad Hominem regularly.
Of course I'm not for bailing out industries willy-nilly. There should be some kind of plan, like who gets on the lifeboat and who's allowed to drown.
However, after the massive bail-out of Wall Street it would appear that no bail-out for car industries seem to be to get rid of the last of the unions, hardly a creditable goal. However, coming hat in hand to Congress after leaving private jets, and in some corporations relocating overseas to avoid taxes, the CEO's undercut their argument, when jobs would be left with foreign owned car manufacturers in the US.
who don't care and don't know what's going on on main street.
I frankly don't care what they think about anything.
idiot. I hope that Fox News goes bankrupt soon. I hate their frgn' shoutfests!
John, "Over 2 trillion" not False:
I'm sure that Cavuto was including the secret (, but now admitted to,) 2.5 trillion dollarsin loans by “the Fed” which apparently occurred while the news media, Congress, and we were distracted by the 700 billion bailout legislation.
When "the Fed" admitted to the monster loans and were asked who they lent the money to, they refused to say. Since those loans would essentially be the same as printing money, it and whatever secret loans are coming up would be the larger, clandestine division of the current bailout regime.
It is both frightening and insane to have any part of the government able to appropriate large sums without any oversight from the people's representatives (Legislative or Executive). Are they loaning it to their own member banks? Who knows?
Regardless, that must be where Cavuto got the 2 trillion figure, and IMO the premise to his question is accurate and should include the 2 trillion.
I agree with Michael Moore. Throw out virtually all of the management of the big 3 automakers, prevent them from taking any assets (bonuses, severance, stock etc) with them and let the Unions run the company with stipulations on what products they will produce (fuel efficient, reliable, alternative fuel, safety etc). As a parallel, it would be similar to FDR's directives under Emergency powers during WWII when the auto companies were directed to switch to military vehicles etc.
I doubt FDR got much of an argument from them since the US auto companies had produced at least 2/3 of Hiltlers military vehicles.
Peace,
JK
This is why I don't watch FOX. They invite a guest on and the moderators shout over them. That's called rude. It also disallows viewers from hearing points of view not sanctioned by FOX.
Who would have thought it. Damn!
I ended up watching Superman last night.
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