Axios co-founder Jim VandeHei tells MSNBC that we're headed into a "constitutional crisis" if Trump pardons people mixed up in the Russia investigations, including himself.

History tells us is if there's one thing we all know for sure, it's that Jim VandeHei isn't a Democratic plant.

Jim appeared on MSNBC with host Hallie Jackson and after hearing remarks by the Washington Post's Carol Leonnig on Trump's efforts to discredit the special counsel, VandeHei jumped in and defended Mueller's integrity, including smearing him over golf fees.

And then he took aim at Trump and said, "If you step back, we're headed towards a true constitutional crisis. Like, that's what this is all about. The president knows you don't ask about 'can I pardon myself,' if you don't think there is something to hide. You don't ask about that for your family members if you don't think somebody is going to get charged."

Jackson asked, "You don't buy the argument that he's just looking it up ...."

VandeHei continued, "They believe that once he digs into their financial dealings that there's something there. If it's not with him, it's with Jared Kushner and others and when that happens he knows he has to play offense."

"He's a terrible client for lawyers because he's never going to behave. He wants junk yard dogs. At the end of the day, as long as 40% of Americans are with him he can go to war and do things -- he will do it. It's all about the conflict to come."

The NY Times' Julie Hirschfeld Davis said that we're seeing Trump lay the ground work of a smear campaign against investigators because he worries where the investigation will end up.

VandeHei thought that wasn't too unusual and added, "The pardon thing is weird. I'm not going to ask for a pardon for cheating on my wife if I haven't cheated on her. So why would you ask for a pardon for a sin you didn't commit? I there's nothing to hide you don't ask for grace."

Trump is running scared and smearing everyone in his wake including supporters like Jeff Sessions. He's unhinged and desperate and that's a very bad combination.

He shook up his legal team again and inquiring about presidential pardons is beyond the pale.

He may want to take a look at his "gene" theory.

And a reminder: investigating the investigators IS obstruction of justice.