who will guard the guards? I know if someone gets caught abusing this only a slap on the wrist will follow. Seems all that happens anymore to anyone in the gang, I mean government.

Face it.... we're screwed.

Well, now we know why folks had a "feeling" there was an increased terrorist threat - it helped hype giving Bush more power. "Vote for giving Bush more power, or he'll blame you for any future terrorist attacks on US soil." Not a good plan to govern.

It's like the early 70's all over again!

The law was originally written because during the Vietnam Era, various Fed agencies routinely did spying on US citizens who were protesters and/or belonged to various political groups that they didn't agree with (ie: anarchists and commies).

Intelligence oversight laws were also passed around the time of FISA because Intel agencies (ie: CIA, NSA) were also used to spy on US citizens in the early 70's. Those laws started to come apart during the "War on Drugs" campaign during Reagan's 2nd term, because the DEA was given a free pass to task an Intel agency to spy on someone they suspected had an international drug connection.

Am I to assume all of the people manning this surveillance are Arabic speaking????? I mean, that's who wants to hurt us, right? That's all I want to know. What SMALL percentage of the staff actually speaks and understands Arabic?

We need keep a running list of every Democrat who caves in on these important issues and votes with Bush's agenda and against the constitution. This should be compiled and shared among all the major liberal blogs and made readily availiable for voters to see when the elections roll around. We need to vote these Traitors out of office and replace them with actual vertibrates.

When the next grand event comes, who would have been squarely blamed if this bill didn't pass?? Think about it. These guys are really smart.

Yesterday I watched the Republican candidates' debate. As I watched I realized there is a possibilty that one of those men could be the next president of the United States. That was more frightening than a terrorist threat, at least for me. We could have four or eight more years of this kind of shit or worse, if that's possible.

If this is just a bad dream, why are we all having it at the same time?

Let's ignore for now the inherent unconstitutionality of searching without probable cause, and the obvious potential for abuse.

What about basic utility? It's well-known that the government and military have hardly any translators in Middle Eastern languages. How the hell are they gonna process the deluge of voice data?

It's terrifying to look up one day and realize that the rousing patriotic songs and loyalty to country we all learned as children are all lies. Land of the free? Yeah right...

i really want to hear from the dems who voted yea on this bill. what are their pathetic excuses for voting AGAINST their contituency. we put them in office to follow our mandates and they turn around and stick us in the back. let's hear from them. i want to know what's behind their vote??? personally, i feel all is lost. there is no more pretense of an opposing party that will hold their feet to the fire; there is not more pretense of a crusading press that will expose the truth; there is not more country other than the nation of bush and the dumb asses who support him and his "righteous" causes. welkome to the 4th Reich, the United States.

Home of the brave? Not anymore.

This bill is profoundly disturbing and disappointing. The people of this nation have no one looking out for their best interests, Democrat or Republican.

I mean seriously, why don't we just go ahead and rip up the constitution. It means absolutely nothing any more. The U.S.A. now resembles the old Soviet Union more than anything else.

Once our consumerist society comes crumbling down under the extreme load of national debt, we'll be like any other banana republic under a dictator's rule.

There are still lots of good people in the U.S., but ultimately we are judged by the actions of our leaders, which means we are viewed as a lawless, immoral, paranoid, and murderous people. And there's really no one else to blame but us*.

*Did not vote for GWB in 2000 -or- 2004

Widespread,

Let's hope the govt. processes the info. better than they did the Iraqis they sent to Abu Ghraib; I'm not optimistic. The genius politicians who voted for this in both houses must have been thinking something along the lines of: yeah, let's give arguably unconstitutional and unaccountable spying power to the same boobs who brought us bankruptcy reform, the politicized justice dept.,the pharmaceutical welfare drug plan for seniors, Gonzo in his many iterations-don't forget his genius insight into torture and the Geneva conventions, the my pet goat moment, Katrina relief, the afghan war and tora bora pass, and the run-up and execution of the Iraq war and occupation and on and on and on. The MSM response: tee hee boobs.

One party government.

Fascism.

To the intelligence underling(s) assigned to monitoring this discussion (and don't kid yourself, they are):

Hi, did you know that what you are doing would make the Founding Fathers want to throw up?

Do you realize what you are doing is wrong?

Do you realize that what you are doing will not stop terrorists in any way, shape or form?

Another sad day for America.

I just heard a guy call in to c-span saying if tapping phones would save his life, then it was fine by him.

So it's all about his safety and to hell with our country? That's what it sounded like.

They have not yet been made legal, they have been authorized. Only the courts can say if they are legal. Of course, the way W has been able to stack the courts makes it likely it will be held to be legal.

Simon White-Thatch Potentloins @ 32:

To the intelligence underling(s) assigned to monitoring this discussion (and don't kid yourself, they are):

Hi, did you know that what you are doing would make the Founding Fathers want to throw up?

Do you realize what you are doing is wrong?

Do you realize that what you are doing will not stop terrorists in any way, shape or form?

Simon, these people don't give a shit what you or I think. They are making obscene amounts of money off our tax dollars and rubbing our noses in it. They are enjoying a good laugh over this thread right now, I'm sure.

Where's the list of the bastards that did this ? Why is no one in their face about it ? Let's target them. Show them how furious we are. Flood them with mail, protests, and ACTIVELY work to remove them from office ! !

pissed off patricia @ 36:

I just heard a guy call in to c-span saying if tapping phones would save his life, then it was fine by him.

So it's all about his safety and to hell with our country? That's what it sounded like.

There are enough bed-wetters in the U.S. such as the C-Span caller who make the Bush mis-administration appear almost legitimate. These chickenshits will give up their own mothers to be protected by the man from this phoney-baloney war on terrorism.

So, how can the Dems now look Gonzo in the face and grill him over activities that were unlawful, but which they've now made lawful? This Dem Congress feels even worse than the last 6 years of GOP bootlicking because the Dems led us to believe that they would reclaim the government for the people.

shhhhhhhhhhh ! Why am I hearingthe theme to Get Smart..........the cone of silence...

China will stop us eventually.
I hope I'm not around for that.

Legalize @ 46:

So, how can the Dems now look Gonzo in the face and grill him over activities that were unlawful, but which they've now made lawful? This Dem Congress feels even worse than the last 6 years of GOP bootlicking because the Dems led us to believe that they would reclaim the government for the people.

E.D. @ 47:

Snickerdoodles McPoppycock @ 12:

We need keep a running list of every Democrat who caves in on these important issues and votes with Bush's agenda and against the constitution. This should be compiled and shared among all the major liberal blogs and made readily available for voters to see when the elections roll around. We need to vote these Traitors out of office and replace them with actual vertebrates.

I agree with this. If someone is keeping a list, please put a link to it here. Looks like next month's budget will have to include an ACLU donation.

Gonzocchio has made a fool out of the Democrats complete. As you've articulated here, how can they now grill him when he's the one who determines who gets spied on and when?? If this weren't so appallingly sad, it would be a great script for Saturday Night Live.

As I see it, the Dems have totally lost their edge with the people now. People are disgusted and fed up AND are taking appropriate action over the break - the registered Democrats are "breaking" with their party and becoming Independents. This may be the ONLY option left to The People for regaining control of this renegade freight train bound for doom and self-implosion.

hadenuf @ 50:

China will stop us eventually.
I hope I'm not around for that.

Of this we can be certain. It's doesn't take an accounting wizard to realize that China now legitimately owns in excess of 30% of our national debt - a debt which they can hold over our heads and/or call due at any time. I find this fact rather daunting, don't you?

Upside Down Flag @ 31:

Huzzah for the Democrats!

Hooray!

Three cheers!

Remember: they hate us for our freedom; ergo, the less freedom you have, the safer you are!

But don't worry - the next batch of Democrats you're told to elect will do a good job! Scout's honor!

Franklin once said (and I'm taking editorial license here) something to the effect that: A Man who trades his freedom for the promise of "security" deserves neither - freedom nor security.

I think we now know precisely what he meant by this statement.

pissed off patricia @ 36:

I just heard a guy call in to c-span saying if tapping phones would save his life, then it was fine by him.

So it's all about his safety and to hell with our country? That's what it sounded like.

You too were listening to Washington Journal. I cringe everytime some ignorant fool says "if you don't have nothing to hide why do you care that the government is listening to your calls?". The Chinese gov't, the Saudi Arabia gov't, the Russian gov't, the old Sadaam Hussein gov't's points exactly. One only needs to look at these bastion of freedom, civil and human rights societies to see why the framers gave us this precious gem, to trump a rich out of control big brother government. that can use your own tax dollars to crush you.

Right wingers have done an excellent job of making the phrase "civil liberties" sound like the darling of a bunch of pot smoking hippies sitting around a camp fire in the woods singing Kumbaya without fear of the law.

Has ANYONE heard a justification from a Dem who voted for this? Why did this happen on Pelosi's watch? You guys please answer this while I go throw up now :-(

pissed off patricia @ 55:

I believe I saw a list over at Kos. You may have to scroll down a bit, but I think it's there.

Here's the link of the "gang of 41" - those Democrats who are turncoats:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll836.xml

People, stop demonizing the Dems and face facts here. It was a no-win situation for them. There was a Dem form of the bill, but they couldn't get any GOP support for it, and they HAD to pass something.

If they had left for recess without passing anything, the GOP spin machine would have gone into overdrive talking about how dare the Dems go on vacation while "Americans are at risk." And the gullible sheeple would have believed it.

If they stayed in session and dragged this out trying to get the GOP to compromise, they would have been there until the walls crumbled around them. They'd still get hit with the same GOP talking points spin, and all the members would raise hell in revolt about not being able to go home and fundraise for their re-election.

So yes, it was a bit of a CYA move, but it was also a move to get Bush and the GOP to STFU until the FISA law can be re-considered. This current act expires in SIX MONTHS, people, and Nancy Pelosi has already publicly stated that she probably won't wait nearly that long to put it back on the table.

So please quit your belly-aching and take off your tin hits. I believe the Dems (the good ones anyway) are trying their best in a very difficult political environment.

Anyone know which of the Bill of Rights we have left?

Did this bill provide the telecoms (AT&T, Verizon, etc...) retroactive immunity from liability for their actions going back until at least 2001? Like no meaningful difference exists between the dems and repubs for those that can see, as oppposed to blind foools, the distinction between the US government and the telcoms is very blurred. The only meaningful difference is the notion (not necessarily the practice) that the government is bound by the Constitution and the telcoms are not.

With that said, ponder this. The telcoms (assuming legislation provides immunity from liability), at the urging of the US government, rout/sale the domestic data en mass evidencing the content of phone call and e-mails, and all other electronic communications to an offshore company, perhaps even a CIA front company where the data is analyzed. This would be outside the constricts of the Constitution and FISA. The public would never know about this through court challenges. This scenario is not too dissimilar from the "silver platter" doctrine that occurred prior to the application of the 4th amendment to the states via incorporation through the 14th amendment. Prior to the 4th amendment's prohibitionof unreasonable searches and seizures/warrant requirement, the states would gather evidence without a warrant and silver platter to the feds to be used in a federal investigation.

Registered Independents now have reached 35% of all voters and will rise more since the Dems have shown their true Bush-licking colors in the spy bill.

switch your party affiliation to "I"....then you, unlike Congress, will not be beholden to any ridiculous party line and can vote for the man whom you trust the most.

With a membership of now 35% of this country's voters, the MSM will soon have to begin counting this group in their news.

i've had enough. perhaps if enough of us follow through on the procedure of terminating our membership in the democratic party and register as independents it will have a descernible impact.

this needs to be done in such numbers that they can't be ignored. it can't be a hollow threat to the dems, something to the effect that if they change their ways we will switch back. bull shit. we need to change and make it stick. i'll switch, but my wife won't. she likes hillary and wants her in office. i'll keep talking to her, but in our house we have the beginnings of a civil war.

spell out the procedure that is the simplest for changing party affiliation. please remember that this will only be effective if done in large numbers, otherwise it's an exercise in futility. can we have a show of hands, are you just spouting off or are you serious????

@61: I believe the Dems (the good ones anyway) are trying their best in a very difficult political environment.

I think you can see that very few are buying this anymore.
A lawyer friend in the know said that the dems are working very hard--trying to compromise with the repubs. That gave us the health care bill for children, but also gives us this.

no longer a proud american @ 69:

Registered Independents now have reached 35% of all voters and will rise more since the Dems have shown their true Bush-licking colors in the spy bill.

switch your party affiliation to "I"....then you, unlike Congress, will not be beholden to any ridiculous party line and can vote for the man whom you trust the most.

With a membership of now 35% of this country's voters, the MSM will soon have to begin counting this group in their news.

i've had enough. perhaps if enough of us follow through on the procedure of terminating our membership in the democratic party and register as independents it will have a descernible impact.

this needs to be done in such numbers that they can't be ignored. it can't be a hollow threat to the dems, something to the effect that if they change their ways we will switch back. bull shit. we need to change and make it stick. i'll switch, but my wife won't. she likes hillary and wants her in office. i'll keep talking to her, but in our house we have the beginnings of a civil war.

spell out the procedure that is the simplest for changing party affiliation. please remember that this will only be effective if done in large numbers, otherwise it's an exercise in futility. can we have a show of hands, are you just spouting off or are you serious????

I'd say that 35% right now is rather impressive a showing, wouldn't you? In fact, that only leaves 65% to be split between Repubs and Dems which clearly means that the actual "third party" in terms of registration may be the Republican Party.

So here's what you do: You march down to your local Supervisor of Elections Office (usually a county office) and ask for a form to switch your party affiliation. Simple as that!

When I did so recently, my Supervisor looked at me and said: You mean "the fastest growing non-party in the state"?? I said: Absolutely!

I would expect that the website which tallies this Independent information which I'll provide in my next post will see it's numbers rising while the Dems are busy enjoying their vacations to idyllic places.....while they par-tay, their par-ty will evaporate before their very eyes.

www.independentvoting.org

Publicus @ 72:

"it appears all the illegal activities the administration was engaged in have now been made legal."

Actually, this can't be true. Nobody can make violating our unalienable rights "legal." What HAS happened is that this government has made ITSELF illegal.

The Declaration of Independence says that Men form governments to protect their unalienable rights, and when that government fails to do so, it is the rights, actually DUTY of the people to change or abolish it. I favor the latter.

Publicus: You're right. This is an illegal, renegade government according to the constitution. But with a complicit DOJ, how can it be resolved?

kdjid @ 58:

pissed off patricia @ 36:

I just heard a guy call in to c-span saying if tapping phones would save his life, then it was fine by him.

So it's all about his safety and to hell with our country? That's what it sounded like.

You too were listening to Washington Journal. I cringe everytime some ignorant fool says "if you don't have nothing to hide why do you care that the government is listening to your calls?". The Chinese gov't, the Saudi Arabia gov't, the Russian gov't, the old Sadaam Hussein gov't's points exactly. One only needs to look at these bastion of freedom, civil and human rights societies to see why the framers gave us this precious gem, to trump a rich out of control big brother government. that can use your own tax dollars to crush you.

Right wingers have done an excellent job of making the phrase "civil liberties" sound like the darling of a bunch of pot smoking hippies sitting around a camp fire in the woods singing Kumbaya without fear of the law.

Has ANYONE heard a justification from a Dem who voted for this? Why did this happen on Pelosi's watch? You guys please answer this while I go throw up now :-(

Start taxing the baptist churches or searching their financial records and you will hear the repubs rightfully whimper and moan about civil liberties and the Constitution.

isis11 @ 63:

kdjid @ 58:

pissed off patricia @ 36:

I just heard a guy call in to c-span saying if tapping phones would save his life, then it was fine by him.

So it's all about his safety and to hell with our country? That's what it sounded like.

You too were listening to Washington Journal. I cringe everytime some ignorant fool says "if you don't have nothing to hide why do you care that the government is listening to your calls?". The Chinese gov't, the Saudi Arabia gov't, the Russian gov't, the old Sadaam Hussein gov't's points exactly. One only needs to look at these bastion of freedom, civil and human rights societies to see why the framers gave us this precious gem, to trump a rich out of control big brother government. that can use your own tax dollars to crush you.

Right wingers have done an excellent job of making the phrase "civil liberties" sound like the darling of a bunch of pot smoking hippies sitting around a camp fire in the woods singing Kumbaya without fear of the law.

Has ANYONE heard a justification from a Dem who voted for this? Why did this happen on Pelosi's watch? You guys please answer this while I go throw up now :-(

The only explanation I've heard is that the Dems do not want to be considered "soft on terror". [snip]

No good. Thanks for the reply but I'm more interested in what they said themselves, not what some political analyst thinks. Did they cast this vote just before heading to the airport to get out of town, like we weren't going to find out.

I hate this link http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll836.xml because even with my good eyesight it's hard to sort out who voted how, not to mention it doesn't give full names and states each representative is from.

It's become clear that voting will not put an end to this crap. Now what?

This is where we're headed if we don't put on the brakes right now, folks. This is a "must see" for everyone you know!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4-TL5AGHFY

isis11 @ 82:

kdjid @ 76:

George @ 57:

[snip]both parties are the same zionist crap [snip]
Read some Russian History--Lenin's killing of the Czar and family and then the untold slaughter of---10 million Christians..
History repeats itself.-any attempt to oust the vermin in Washington--we are next. :(

I think what you're saying checks out. I'm researching this stuff now and I think I have enough to write a book on.

Another good source for comprehending the ideology of the Bush Regime is the philosophy of Leo Strauss. Irving Kristol, William Kristol of Faux News fame's grandfather, is dubbed the grandfather of the current "Fascist Neocons". Also, google Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker (41's father in law) who were both working with the nazis and were caught in the "trading with the emeny" act and ordered to cease. Amazing stuff and it suddenly brings what's occurring rightnow into better focus. This IS history repeating itself.

Did you know that Prescott Bush et al had a plot to kill FDR and turn the US into a nazi country back then? Of course, it was foiled. I'll see if I can come up with the video link on it all. Check out Bill Moyers Journal website - there are also great pro-impeachment videos there with constitutional experts weighing in.

Good stuff. Thanks. I've saved this permalink.

Legalize @ 46:

So, how can the Dems now look Gonzo in the face and grill him over activities that were unlawful, but which they've now made lawful? This Dem Congress feels even worse than the last 6 years of GOP bootlicking because the Dems led us to believe that they would reclaim the government for the people.

It's the Good Cop/Bad Cop Routine and it works nearly every time.

Yeah, and I think the Good Cop is the more evil one, because he's the one who lies to pretend to be your friend.

Bah... we didn't need rights anyway. This is America after all, our leaders are responsible, honorable and law abiding men and women. They'd NEVER abuse it.

Fuck man... I wouldn't trust Gonzales to tie my shoes let alone have sole control over my civil rights.

PinkytheBrain @ 89:

Bush Signs Law Widening Reach for Wiretapping
By James Risen
The New York Times

Monday 06 August 2007

Washington - President Bush signed into law on Sunday legislation that broadly expanded the government's authority to eavesdrop on the international telephone calls and e-mail messages of American citizens without warrants.

Congressional aides and others familiar with the details of the law said that its impact went far beyond the small fixes that administration officials had said were needed to gather information about foreign terrorists. They said seemingly subtle changes in legislative language would sharply alter the legal limits on the government's ability to monitor millions of phone calls and e-mail messages going in and out of the United States.

They also said that the new law for the first time provided a legal framework for much of the surveillance without warrants that was being conducted in secret by the National Security Agency and outside the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the 1978 law that is supposed to regulate the way the government can listen to the private communications of American citizens.

"This more or less legalizes the N.S.A. program," said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies in Washington, who has studied the new legislation.

Previously, the government needed search warrants approved by a special intelligence court to eavesdrop on telephone conversations, e-mail messages and other electronic communications between individuals inside the United States and people overseas, if the government conducted the surveillance inside the United States.

Today, most international telephone conversations to and from the United States are conducted over fiber-optic cables, and the most efficient way for the government to eavesdrop on them is to latch on to giant telecommunications switches located in the United States.

By changing the legal definition of what is considered "electronic surveillance," the new law allows the government to eavesdrop on those conversations without warrants - latching on to those giant switches - as long as the target of the government's surveillance is "reasonably believed" to be overseas.

For example, if a person in Indianapolis calls someone in London, the National Security Agency can eavesdrop on that conversation without a warrant, as long as the N.S.A.'s target is the person in London.

Tony Fratto, a White House spokesman, said Sunday in an interview that the new law went beyond fixing the foreign-to-foreign problem, potentially allowing the government to listen to Americans calling overseas.

But he stressed that the objective of the new law is to give the government greater flexibility in focusing on foreign suspects overseas, not to go after Americans.

"It's foreign, that's the point," Mr. Fratto said. "What you want to make sure is that you are getting the foreign target."

The legislation to change the surveillance act was rushed through both the House and Senate in the last days before the August recess began.

The White House's push for the change was driven in part by a still-classified ruling earlier this year by the special intelligence court, which said the government needed to seek court-approved warrants to monitor those international calls going through American switches.

The new law, which is intended as a stopgap and expires in six months, also represents a power shift in terms of the oversight and regulation of government surveillance.

The new law gives the attorney general and the director of national intelligence the power to approve the international surveillance, rather than the special intelligence court. The court's only role will be to review and approve the procedures used by the government in the surveillance after it has been conducted. It will not scrutinize the cases of the individuals being monitored.

The law also gave the administration greater power to force telecommunications companies to cooperate with such spying operations. The companies can now be compelled to cooperate by orders from the attorney general and the director of national intelligence.

Democratic Congressional aides said Sunday that some telecommunications company officials had told Congressional leaders that they were unhappy with that provision in the bill and might challenge the new law in court. The aides said the telecommunications companies had told lawmakers that they would rather have a court-approved warrant ordering them to comply.

In fact, pressure from the telecommunications companies on the Bush administration has apparently played a major hidden role in the political battle over the surveillance issue over the past few months.

In January, the administration placed the N.S.A.'s warrantless wiretapping program under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and subjected it for the first time to the scrutiny of the FISA court.

Democratic Congressional aides said Sunday that they believed that pressure from major telecommunications companies on the White House was a major factor in persuading the Bush administration to do that. Those companies were facing major lawsuits for having secretly cooperated with the warrantless wiretapping program, and now wanted greater legal protections before cooperating further.

But the change suddenly swamped the court with an enormous volume of search warrant applications, leading, in turn, to the administration's decision to seek the new legislation.

Once again, the weakest president in the history of this country walks away a WINNER!!! Winning BIG TIME!

And 'we the people' are so fucked...

What a total joke! It's all about "foreign spying", right!! I've got some prime swampland in Louisiana to sell you if you believe that one! Bush has been spying on citizens since day one....that's right....not after 911 and the declaration of the war on terror....day one!

When are we going to realise this is not just a George Bush problem but a problem on both sides of the aisle? Both the Democrats and Republicans who have voted "yes" to chip away at our Constitution should be tossed out office, never mind whatever ear marks they were pormised passage of for going along with this abominable legislation. Why are we just wringing our hands about the "evil neocons" & GWB when the Democrats helped pass this?

Santa from the North @ 94:

When are we going to realise this is not just a George Bush problem but a problem on both sides of the aisle? Both the Democrats and Republicans who have voted "yes" to chip away at our Constitution should be tossed out office, never mind whatever ear marks they were pormised passage of for going along with this abominable legislation. Why are we just wringing our hands about the "evil neocons" & GWB when the Democrats helped pass this?

There is no longer a two party system; now they've merged into one - against the Constitution and the people.

Clearly, we need an Independent Progressive Party to now emerge. It's "time has definitely come"!

no longer a proud american @ 69:

Registered Independents now have reached 35% of all voters and will rise more since the Dems have shown their true Bush-licking colors in the spy bill.

switch your party affiliation to "I"....then you, unlike Congress, will not be beholden to any ridiculous party line and can vote for the man whom you trust the most.

With a membership of now 35% of this country's voters, the MSM will soon have to begin counting this group in their news.

i've had enough. perhaps if enough of us follow through on the procedure of terminating our membership in the democratic party and register as independents it will have a descernible impact.

this needs to be done in such numbers that they can't be ignored. it can't be a hollow threat to the dems, something to the effect that if they change their ways we will switch back. bull shit. we need to change and make it stick. i'll switch, but my wife won't. she likes hillary and wants her in office. i'll keep talking to her, but in our house we have the beginnings of a civil war.

spell out the procedure that is the simplest for changing party affiliation. please remember that this will only be effective if done in large numbers, otherwise it's an exercise in futility. can we have a show of hands, are you just spouting off or are you serious????

I agree with you, but Independents can't vote in the primary (in the state I live) because its the dems and the repugs game.

Unless you're willing to die of hunger in some transit camp in Idaho, or have some thugs put a bag over your head and beat you to death in a jail cell, I would recommend leaving. Now.

Why?

Energy. We're at peak global extraction of petroleum. There might be some modest gains this year, but I doubt it. We'll be at a plateau until 2011 - 2013. After that, we'll go into a 3% year over year decline in petroleum/natgas extraction. That will last for a few years, and then it will be 7% - 12% year over year, forever.

The Mexican's largest oil field is Cantarell. Its production is down 14% yr/yr. Around 2013, I would suspect Mexico will cease exporting oil. The Mexican safety nets (such as they are) will fail, and they will all March North, creating a permanent peasant class. The USA will need the labour of these people to pick the vegetables, as using machinery will be too expensive due to the cost of fuel. Fuel will be directed to shipping food, mostly by train. The American economy will sink into a stagnation, a slow grind.

Unemployment won't be the issue - there will be lots of menial jobs - but the condition of the employment will change radically. Fewer and fewer high energy jobs (typical info society crap - PR, advertising, sales account managing for automobile distribution, etc.) to be replaced by increasingly lower energy jobs (picking fruit, cotton, vegetables, slaughterhouse work, road maintenance, laying new and maintaining old railroad tracks, etc.) and the gradual formation of a north American corporate feudalism. To keep people "with the program" the FBI will have thousands of informants seeking out "trouble makers" who will be given the "rendition" and end up in gulags.

This will all be possible by a terrorist strike in the next year or two - whether it is real (like 9/11) or imaginary (like Gulf of Tonkin). And the unitary executive to execute these fascist orders? Democrat, rethuglican, it doesn't matter. Hillary will just as cheerfully kick your ass into a Stalag as Georgie Porgie.

So, get out now.

While you can.

Private Freedom @ 99:

I got an idea. Let's vote for more democrats and republicans into Congress and the White House. That way, these types of laws can then be passed a lot easier than they are now!!!

Isn't it high time everyone vote "independent"?

There will be a very formidable "independent candidate" in 08. It's "in the works" right now. Hang tight - at the very least, the move to "I" will assuage any sense of complicity by affiliation which people may have right now in their dire disappointment with the Dems. I've found my move to be the single most liberating thing I've done for myself in a long time. In this way, I feel that I am able to be more objective and not be biased by a party affiliation - a "free spirit" so to speak.

"...and to the Republic for which it USED TO STAND..."

GEORGE "ADOLPH HITLER" BUSH.

The Smiths Go To Washington @ 101:

--> S.Amdt.2649 Passed To provide a sunset provision.

Go ahead.. keep our country safe.....

But the key issue to understand with this vote...
all the illegal activities the administration was engaged in have now been made legal.

And it tells us where they all stand.. these voted with the Republicans...
Rep. Jason Altmire [D, PA-4] Aye
Rep. John Barrow [D, GA-12] Aye
Rep. Melissa Bean [D, IL-8] Aye
Rep. Dan Boren [D, OK-2] Aye
Rep. Leonard Boswell [D, IA-3] Aye
Rep. F. Allen Boyd [D, FL-2] Aye
Rep. Christopher Carney [D, PA-10] Aye
Rep. Ben Chandler [D, KY-6] Aye
Rep. Jim Cooper [D, TN-5] Aye
Rep. Jim Costa [D, CA-20] Aye
Rep. Robert Cramer [D, AL-5] Aye
Rep. Henry Cuellar [D, TX-28] Aye
Rep. Artur Davis [D, AL-7] Aye
Rep. Lincoln Davis [D, TN-4] Aye
Rep. Joe Donnelly [D, IN-2] Aye
Rep. Thomas Edwards [D, TX-17] Aye
Rep. Brad Ellsworth [D, IN-8] Aye
Rep. Bob Etheridge [D, NC-2] Aye
Rep. Barton Gordon [D, TN-6] Aye
Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin [D, SD-0] Aye
Rep. Brian Higgins [D, NY-27] Aye
Rep. Baron Hill [D, IN-9] Aye
Rep. Nicholas Lampson [D, TX-22] Aye
Rep. Daniel Lipinski [D, IL-3] Aye
Rep. James Marshall [D, GA-8] Aye
Rep. Jim Matheson [D, UT-2] Aye
Rep. Mike McIntyre [D, NC-7] Aye
Rep. Charles Melancon [D, LA-3] Aye
Rep. Harry Mitchell [D, AZ-5] Aye
Rep. Collin Peterson [D, MN-7] Aye
Rep. Earl Pomeroy [D, ND-0] Aye
Rep. Ciro Rodriguez [D, TX-23] Aye
Rep. Mike Ross [D, AR-4] Aye
Rep. John Salazar [D, CO-3] Aye
Rep. Heath Shuler [D, NC-11] Aye
Rep. Victor Snyder [D, AR-2] Aye
Rep. Zackary Space [D, OH-18] Aye
Rep. John Tanner [D, TN-8] Aye
Rep. Gene Taylor [D, MS-4] Aye
Rep. Timothy Walz [D, MN-1] Aye
Rep. Charles Wilson [D, OH-6]

I wonder what these two Republicans know.
They voted with Pelosi against the bill.

Johnson (IL)
Jones (NC)

Ayes: 226 (Democrat: 41; Republican: 185)
Nays: 183 (Democrat: 181; Republican: 2)
Abstained: 23 (Democrat: 9; Republican: 14)
http://www.opencongress.org/roll_call/show/1806

And on other voting issues...

We The People are also wondering why is this not an immediate legislative issue:
--> California - 39 counties' vote systems in question
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-voting5aug05,0,3346732.story?coll=la-tot-topstories&tracktothtml

Thanks so much for provision of this information here. This is precisely what frustrated americans need to do during the month-long hiaitus - become informed.

We need to channel this anger and energy into something constructive and positive. Progressive change! Like those who sat around while Hilter gained unchecked power over the people, we can no longer sit back and "allow" things to be contaminated right under our noses. We need to call our congressmen and continue to press them to represent us over concern for their egomaniacal reputations and images.

We need to support good people to run against every traitor in Congress now - grassroots movements are formulating now.

As for the Dem list of Pres. candidates, unless/until one of them develops the "spine" to stand up and itemize why this president should be impeached, then none of them can be trusted to help the people in this constitutional crisis; in fact, some of them may be so drunk on their own power that they are "smacking their chops" at the sheer visual associated with "unchecked power of the executive" right now?? Any guess who these might be??

tHeGaMeOfLiFe @ 107:

isis11 @ 97:

tHeGaMeOfLiFe @ 93:

Which makes London and Indianapolis terrorist havens to these mixed nuts. What happens if Indianapolis passed commutation from London to another state like New York? Are they going to tap Indianapolis and New York phones? This is a mess and congress should have never allowed this order from the bushfia to pass.

This is putting the cart before the horse. After they eavesdropped on whatever they going to do? Secretly ship them to a never ending stay at Guantanamo? Torture them, kill them, harass their family? This is madding?

chimpy and his gang of nuts have selected targets to tap, but they won't say who they are. Of course they don't want to divulge wiretapping before they do it because it's all secret, the forth evil secret government . This is as crooked as a back with osteoporosis.

We cannot forget that the FISA court was specifically designed to permit immediate eavesdropping but with a mandated defacto permit application following it. So, in no way, did FISA hamper any eavesdropping activities.

Why do you believe that this could no longer work in the way in which it is designed? Because the folks who are being spied upon (political enemies) would definitely NOT be granted a warrant! That's the ONLY explanation.

Remember: FISA has an option for warrantless spying which can begin immediately with the caveat that a warrant MUST be applied for within a given amount of days.

Aren't they suppose attain warrants beforethe tap. They are breaking the law. Also they have four month after the wiretapping to divulge who and what the tap is all about. You know in pass repug examples that this crooked wh will not give up the info. It's chimpy executive privileged bullshit right.

I'm not a FISA expert but I do recall that this was the main point which shot holes in their need for additional power: The fact that they can begin warrantless wiretapping immediately but then MUST complete a defacto warrant application with 7 days or some period of time. This clearly means that they are not hampered one iota by FISA in anything they deem necessary to protect the nation.

This is precisely WHY this sudden appearance of the bill on the radar screen, precisely when they knew that everyone was chafing at the bit to get to their family vacations sites, makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. Loophole?? Where was the Loophole? I think I know where and it's somewhere in Dumbya's cranial cavity, that's where!

This has everything to do with the judge who just last week ruled that Bush's illegal wiretapping was precisely that: illegal.

The judge who rules that this eavesdropping was patently "illegal" early last week meant that the wheels of justice were moving in the direction of indicting George W. for spying. THIS is why the caving of Dems is so profound. This is why these Dems can no longer be trusted.

I have just re-registered to change my party-affiliation status for voting as a "Decline to State".

During the cheney/bush administration, I have become increasingly disenchanted with the Democrats - and this latest cave-in was the last straw. For the past 6+ years, I have given the party chance after chance to recognize the danger posed by the current administration. In many cases, the Democratic Party has not listened to the people of the US, and it is now time to end my general support of the party as a whole. I will however, support the individuals of the party who are worthy of it.

If enough of us choose to let the party know of our displeasure in this way, it may have some effect - especially if donations dwindle.

I can only wonder who's going to save the US from their dictatorship.

isis11 @ 110:

tHeGaMeOfLiFe @ 107:

isis11 @ 97:

tHeGaMeOfLiFe @ 93:

We cannot forget that the FISA court was specifically designed to permit immediate eavesdropping but with a mandated defacto permit application following it. So, in no way, did FISA hamper any eavesdropping activities.

Why do you believe that this could no longer work in the way in which it is designed? Because the folks who are being spied upon (political enemies) would definitely NOT be granted a warrant! That's the ONLY explanation.

Remember: FISA has an option for warrantless spying which can begin immediately with the caveat that a warrant MUST be applied for within a given amount of days.

Aren't they suppose attain warrants beforethe tap. They are breaking the law. Also they have four month after the wiretapping to divulge who and what the tap is all about. You know in pass repug examples that this crooked wh will not give up the info. It's chimpy executive privileged bullshit right.

I'm not a FISA expert but I do recall that this was the main point which shot holes in their need for additional power: The fact that they can begin warrantless wiretapping immediately but then MUST complete a defacto warrant application with 7 days or some period of time. This clearly means that they are not hampered one iota by FISA in anything they deem necessary to protect the nation.

This is precisely WHY this sudden appearance of the bill on the radar screen, precisely when they knew that everyone was chafing at the bit to get to their family vacations sites, makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. Loophole?? Where was the Loophole? I think I know where and it's somewhere in Dumbya's cranial cavity, that's where!

This has everything to do with the judge who just last week ruled that Bush's illegal wiretapping was precisely that: illegal.

This is what I'm talking about. Thank you Isis11. It's being done in secret and being used in a crooked matter. And we all know bushfia is crooked.

I heard this today, "Yeah, I don't have anything to hide. I'm ok with this law."

....inbreeding is a bitch.

solid @ 44:

pissed off patricia @ 36:

I just heard a guy call in to c-span saying if tapping phones would save his life, then it was fine by him.

So it's all about his safety and to hell with our country? That's what it sounded like.

There are enough bed-wetters in the U.S. such as the C-Span caller who make the Bush mis-administration appear almost legitimate. These chickenshits will give up their own mothers to be protected by the man from this phoney-baloney war on terrorism.

Imprisonment is Protection, Death is Life, Doom is Hope, Cruelty is Nurturance, Oppression is Freedom, Abberration is Normalcy, Criminality is Goodness, Murder is Lifegiving, Poison is Healthy, Hatred is Kindness, Invasion is Respect, Birth Defects are Natural, and HELL is HEAVEN.

NO NO NO

The dems aren't like the repugs.

crazylove @ 119:

solid @ 44:

pissed off patricia @ 36:

I just heard a guy call in to c-span saying if tapping phones would save his life, then it was fine by him.

So it's all about his safety and to hell with our country? That's what it sounded like.

There are enough bed-wetters in the U.S. such as the C-Span caller who make the Bush mis-administration appear almost legitimate. These chickenshits will give up their own mothers to be protected by the man from this phoney-baloney war on terrorism.

Imprisonment is Protection, Death is Life, Doom is Hope, Cruelty is Nurturance, Oppression is Freedom, Abberration is Normalcy, Criminality is Goodness, Murder is Lifegiving, Poison is Healthy, Hatred is Kindness, Invasion is Respect, Birth Defects are Natural, and HELL is HEAVEN.

"Fear" will cripple even the strongest of individuals with the swath it cuts through one's psyche.

Fear motivates people to hand over their freedoms for the illusion of security - getting neither in the exchange.

Fear is the weapon most used by this administration of smoke & mirrors. After all, without prima facie evidence of anything they purport, the only card left in their hand is the "fear card".....that along with false flag operations, that is.

isis11 is probably right- there will be some sort of "attack" inside the US to ensure the fear factor is high enough to warrant making this crap permanent; possibly enough to make Dubya and the Evil One feel they can cancel "elections" (I use the parenthesis to indicate that I don't much think any of the elections we'll have or have had in the recent past are legitimate anyway) and enact all the Presidential executive orders they've put into place while no one was paying attention. Fortunately, trying to enforce martial law on the citizens of the US wil be a little difficult as most of the Army, etc. is otherwise occupied in foreign countries. Plus, most of our armed forces have been so badly mistreated by our gov't. during the past few years (no equipment, extended tours, poor med. treatment, etc., etc.), I don't think too many of them (including all the fired and recently retired generals) would be willing to assist these creeps in attacking citizens.

I've been an independent voter for years as the Democrats are no different than the Republicans - they are only interested in maintaining their own cushy lifestyles on the public dole and raking in as much cash as they can from corporate lobbyists. Our Founding Documents clearly stipulate that the People have the right to throw off any government that is oppressive and/or not serving the greater good. Maybe it's time for the People in each of the States, through their legislatures, to begin that process of changing our Government now before we slide all the way down that slippery fascist slope.

Maybe the Bush should be focusing their spying in Iraq.

--> Report: 190,000 guns given to Iraqi forces have gone missing
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Washington_Post_0805.html

Back at home here... We also still remember that we are a country based on laws...
http://www.democrats.com/subpoenas

A little thing called.... "Inherent Contempt.."
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/01/inherent-contempt-trial-before-the...

The Smiths Go To Washington @ 127:

Maybe the Bush should be focusing their spying in Iraq.

--> Report: 190,000 guns given to Iraqi forces have gone missing
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Washington_Post_0805.html

Back at home here... We also still remember that we are a country based on laws...
http://www.democrats.com/subpoenas

A little thing called.... "Inherent Contempt.."
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/01/inherent-contempt-trial-before-the-bar-of-the-house-of-representatives/

"Inherent contempt" - I love the thought of this; however, where are all of the subpoenas getting us besides nowhere! It's become a collossal waste of taxpayer money and time and producing zilch.

The People know that impeachment is the only solution to stopping this tyranny.

isis11 @ 120:

StirFry @ 118:

I heard this today, "Yeah, I don't have anything to hide. I'm ok with this law."

....inbreeding is a bitch.

Tell your friend it's not about "hiding anything"; it's about rights being totally "stripped" from the people and the constitution being used as toilet paper.

I would like to, but it would like showing a card trick to a dog.

keep checking the I website - www.independentvoting.org for updates on the numbers. Right now it's 35% and rising. Later, all!

Forgive me, but I don't think either Gore or Bloomberg is the answer for the kind of integrity and leadership we need to pull our country out of the morass we're in. We need to encourge the folks with actual brains, who have not yet been mired in the political process to step forward and lead. And, somehow, we need to amend the whole electoral process: Only public money/public TV-radio used for campaigns with public accountability (each cand. gets a certain amount - no contributions no personal fortunes can be spent); make room for many pol. parties; new voting methods - paper doesn't look so bad right now, though I'm not sure how we can prevent all corruption; get rid of the electoral college - one person/one vote - we're out of the horse & buggy age for a while now; use technology to vet candidates - if eavesdropping on citizens is okay, lie detector tests for candidates looks good to me!

I'm sure there are millions of ways we can improve upon the processes to make the best use of the genius ideas enshrined in our Founding Documents. We need to begin the process of fixing this NOW....

They might be able to legislate coverup
But the people know...

Bush and Cheney Broke the Law
and
Bush and Cheney Lied to Soldiers, Their Families and the American People
and
GOP candidates are still distancing themselves from Bush

Very soon...
September and the Truth is almost here.

Where are all these terrorists that both parties claim there are, that they need these anti-constitutional domestic spying laws?

We must be catching THOUSANDS of them! Right?

No???

Then, what is the REAL reason BOTH parties are stripping our rights???

I think what would be most useful is understanding how this happened
so quickly. I feel like the Republicans pulled a fast one and the
actual mechanisms they used should be exposed. Other than that it
seemed like the old Bluedog Salazarian crap but it came out of
nowhere. I think hearings with Abu Gonzales on what procedures he
was going to instill, with him giving the trust me speech, would have
sufficed to kill it. Why the leadership didn't make these hearings
happen is unclear to me.

There is NO "War on Terrorism". There's a war against the citizens of the US and their Constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedoms.

crazylove @ 119:

solid @ 44:

pissed off patricia @ 36:

I just heard a guy call in to c-span saying if tapping phones would save his life, then it was fine by him.

So it's all about his safety and to hell with our country? That's what it sounded like.

There are enough bed-wetters in the U.S. such as the C-Span caller who make the Bush mis-administration appear almost legitimate. These chickenshits will give up their own mothers to be protected by the man from this phoney-baloney war on terrorism.

Imprisonment is Protection, Death is Life, Doom is Hope, Cruelty is Nurturance, Oppression is Freedom, Abberration is Normalcy, Criminality is Goodness, Murder is Lifegiving, Poison is Healthy, Hatred is Kindness, Invasion is Respect, Birth Defects are Natural, and HELL is HEAVEN.

: Profit is good.

My computer is acting up: My previous comment looked like I was still quoting "The Smiths GoTo Washington.

==============================================================

Tim Johnson from Illinois is my rep in Congress. He is your typical Bush bootlicker -except- when civil liberties are taking a hit, such as this law. So regarding the constitution, he has been relatively consistent. Otherwise, he is your typical Repug scumbag.

http://www.ontheissues.org/IL/Timothy_Johnson.htm