Verizon: No warrant, no problem
By Steve Benen Monday Oct 15, 2007 7:22amIt's an awfully good time to debate telecom immunity, isn't it?
Verizon Communications, the nation's second-largest telecom company, told congressional investigators that it has provided customers' telephone records to federal authorities in emergency cases without court orders hundreds of times since 2005. [...]
Verizon also disclosed that the FBI, using administrative subpoenas, sought information identifying not just a person making a call, but all the people that customer called, as well as the people those people called. Verizon does not keep data on this "two-generation community of interest" for customers, but the request highlights the broad reach of the government's quest for data.
From January 2005 to September 2007, Verizon provided data to federal authorities on an emergency basis 720 times, it said in the letter. The records included Internet protocol addresses as well as phone data.... Verizon and AT&T said it was not their role to second-guess the legitimacy of emergency government requests.
That's it? That's the excuse? How about second-guessing the legitimacy of the law?
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And these pricks are my carrier. Little government toadies.
The minute I heard of a carrier that doesn't cave in the government in my region, I won't be your customer anymore, Verizon bastards.
Verizon Wireless will also be sharing your call data with third party affiliates UNLESS you call to opt out.
call 1-800-333-9956 and tell them you want to opt-out.
What happened to that part about we are only listening in to calls made by terrorist from outside the country? Could that have been a lie by this administration? Imagine that.
WTF!!!!!!!!!! Does anyone in government that took an oath to the Constitution even know what the rule of law is? This country is sooooooooooooooooooo screwed!
Andrew, we have been so screwed for so long by this administration that I don't know if we'll ever heal.
Seriously... I could see them complying with a dozen "emergency" requests without question, but don't you think that around 720th request, they would've at least contacted their team of attorneys?
Ignorance of a law is no excuse, no matter what lame reason you give for breaking that law. You try that excuse in a court of law and see how far it gets you!
MIGHTY damn sure of themselves, aren't they. Bastards.
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720 requests filled in 33 months (Jan 2005 - Sep 2007). That's roughly 21 requests per month, or once per weekday.
Simon White-Thatch Potentloins @ 1:
Careful - they can drop us for saying BAD things about them and for maligning them. Remember - they have protections WE don't fucking have anymore.
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if you got verizon, you'd be wise to check out the following link:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071014-verizon-wireless-if-you-do...
OT- Breaking News - This makes me very very mad. Bill Press is reporting on Air America this morning that Randi Rhodes was mugged while walking her dog. He reported that she was roughed up pretty badly and lost a couple teeth. She will miss the entire week of her radio show.
Why is my first thought that this was not just a random event? Why is my first thought that she was targeted because she speaks so loudly about the criminal administration? She is the LOUDEST voice Progressives have on ANY medium. She holds NOTHING back every day. You may or may not like her. But if this was a targeted attack we should all take it VERY PERSONALLY!
Blue Buddha @ 5:
From the minute this administration set foot in the door - the corporations have been like the three little piggies personified - running amok with their little hooves in the air happily trampling everything in their path screaming "Weeee, Weeee Weeeee!!" at the tops of their little piggy voices. (they all sound like limbaugh and hannity) . . . .
What did THEY have to worry about with their boys in control? And since they OWN the Defeatocrats too, what will they EVER have to worry about?
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[...] Posted by ff on October 16th, 2007 By: Steve Benen on Tuesday, October 16th, 2007 at 5:22 AM - PDT [...]
Wow!
No wonder the Bush administration is fighting for legislation giving telecoms immunity. They've been breaking the law, seemingly continuously, for YEARS now.
I hope the Dem Congress has enough sense to not pass any legislation granting immunity. But sadly, I think enough Dems can be corrupted by campaign contributions that the immunity will be granted...
I'm curious as to what phone service Hillary during her husband's administration to listen in on conversations between her
political rivals.
Clinton on phone-call snooping
Listening in on rivals: ok.
Listening in on terrorists plotting to destroy America: not so ok.
Vote her in anyway. Or don't. Macht nichts.
Who else are they sharing data with?
The fascists are listening to your phone calls? That's such a shock.
this law ??
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode47/usc_sec_47_00000222----...
(the link won't work, cut-n-paste this, www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode47/usc_sec_47_00000222----000-.html)
or this link
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode47/usc_sup_01_47_10_5_20_I...
and hit the link for § 222. Privacy of customer information
sorry to be off topic but everytime i try to see the report about Randi Rhodes ( on Thinkprogress.org) getting mugged i get a microsoft error report that promptly shuts the web page down.
From January 2005 to September 2007, Verizon provided data to federal authorities on an emergency basis 720 times, it said in the letter.
Define emergency. Me thinks it means someone wrote an anti-Bush/Pro-American letter to their local paper.
One thing I haven't heard anything about is the list of people sent to banks and bank subsidiaries. The banks are supposed to check the names on the list against their account holders. This began after 9/11, but so many of the names are Hispanic with a sprinkling of European surnames as well as Middle Eastern surnames. Is this legal?
Shows their true meaning in the commercials... "Can you hear me now?"
Weaseldog @ 16:
THE OWNERS OF THE COMPANY KNOW WHATS GOING ON AND THE OWNERS ARE IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES - HELL, MOST OF THE COMPANIES IN THIS COUNTRY ARE OWNED BY FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS WITH THEIR OWN AGENDA - SUCH AS PUTTING THEIR OWN LAWS IN PLACE AND DOING AWAY WITH OUR LAWS. BUSH/CHENEY'S AGENDA PLAYS RIGHT ALONG WITH THESE FOREIGNERS.
tofubo @ 19:
They could argue (and probably win) that what they are doing is perfectly legal. Section (d) of that law includes:
"Nothing in this section prohibits a telecommunications carrier from using, disclosing, or permitting access to customer proprietary network information obtained from its customers, either directly or indirectly through its agents..."
..."(2) to protect the rights or property of the carrier, or to protect users of those services and other carriers from fraudulent, abusive, or unlawful use of, or subscription to, such services"
They could always say they were doing what the government asked in order to protect their own property, or to protect their other customers from potential fraudulent or abusive activities.
I'm not saying I agree with it, just saying what they would argue in court. God bless America, right?
Remember the old Frankenstein movie where the towns people bring their pitch forks and torches to get the monster? May it's time for the American people to storm the White house and get rid of OUR MONSTER! The head over to Congress and rid ourselves of some of them to.
Bastards lied to me!!!!
When the whole telecom/Qwest thing came down, I called Verizon (along with my other carriers) and GRILLED them about their complicity. They denied any/all knowledge of involvement.
Bastards!!!!
Bud Rose @ 23:
Should be "we can hear you now".
dennis @ 15:
Fallacious argument. First you must prove that those you are listening in on are, in fact, terrorists plotting, not simply regular citizens of the nation going about their daily business. That's why warrants are required; to acknowledge that some level of proof has been established. No "fishing expeditions", in other words. At which point, of course, we would all support listening in on their plotting.
But you knew that, right?
Andrew @ 26:
I like the image you created. It's hilarious. I wonder how many National Guard troops they could call up to stop the angry hoardes.
720 violations of the Constitution. Hmmmm, what's Brittney Spears up to?
-American media
anybody have any information on providers who do not give out personal information - to commercial 3rd parties or the government?
i received that snail mail from Verizon yesterday - it'll pain me to pay the $175 to get out of the contract, but it's money well spent.
dennis @ 15:
Well how about when Hewlett-Packard chair person went to jail for obtaining phone records of their employees to chase a company leak? Double standards for our government...
BOYCOTT the companies that do this.Hit them in the pocket. End of story.Forget about the fact that it might be a bit awkward as a customer to switch but if a company is handing your phone records AND tapes of your calls over to the government without batting an eyelid then they dont deserve to be supported financially.I mean even a ten year old could work out that a terrorist or someone intent on harm is NOT going to use a phone line that he or she knows is traceable or possibly being monitored in the first place so where does that place average joe schmoe in the list of suspects.Nowhere, thats where! These telecommunication corporations have no right or LEGAL permission whatseover to allow your phone records to be handed over without a specific warrant.Talk about a litigation lawyers wet dream, thousands,if not millions of citizen's rights being violated on a regular basis.Of course the government want immunity for the companies,they know what the cost to themselves will be in terms of litigation should they be named as co defendant's in any action not to mind criminal charges being brought against them.Theyve broken the law,repeatedly ,they not only deserve no immunity, they deserve to have their licence to operate taken away.Permanently.
IrresistibleB1tch @ 32:
I just was checking out Qwest. Has anyone had any experience with them? After a snafu through my company, I just renewed my Verizon wireless account--but I'll eat the $175 in a heartbeat if I can find an alternative. Or perhaps even if I can't.
Kafka Lives @ 35:
let me know what you find out! my problem right now is that we may be moving from the NC to NY - i'm trying to find a company that serves both markets.
"the NC"
ugh...........
We live in what Jonathan Turley called "the fishbowl society" we have no privacy while the govt stonewalls our Freedom Of Information Act requests
I'd also like to know if there is a better alternative out there for mobile phone service. My Verizon contract will be up shortly and I get shitty service anyway.
Also, is anyone else out there thinking Class Action Lawsuit??
QWEST lawyers told management that the NSA's requests were illegal and QWEST chose not to cooperate with the NSA. Did QWEST get bad legal advice? Doesn't look like it to me as they are the only ones not named in the current spate of class action suits against their competitors.
I had QWEST service in the PNW for 2.5 years (2004 - 2006) and it was good. Very responsive customer service / support and professional installation of additional lines. I'd recommend them.
Back in 2005, when I first heard about how certain carriers were playing fast and loose with their customers phone records, I dropped Verizon. Perhaps I'm naive, but I believe that I should expect a certain level of privacy. I'm no criminal and I don't appreciate being surveiled like one.
The eavesdropping began before 9/11/01.
!!!!
No Immunity. . . if they broke the law, let them pay for it. That's why we have LAWS. They shouldn't have broken the law.
Simon White-Thatch Potentloins @ 1:
And these pricks are my carrier. Little government toadies.
The minute I heard of a carrier that doesn’t cave in to the government in my region, I won’t be your customer anymore, Verizon bastards.
Careful - they can drop us for saying BAD things about them and for maligning them. Remember - they have protections WE don’t fucking have anymore.
You're right. Verizon -- they're a total class act for whom I have the greatest respect.
I need a shower now.
Second guessing the legitimacy of the law?
Corporations are "Ficticious Entities", a ficticious person.
They don't abide by the same laws all of us useless eaters
are forced to.
Tell me again why impeachment off the table?
Please, will somebody start asking why the NSA started this illegal quest for information? You can't honestly still believe it was in an effort to fight terrorists.
No...I did NOT make all those 900 number calls. I didn't! You can't prove it. They gained those records illegally...they've been doctored...I've seen the black helicopters over my house! It's all a frameup...a frameup I tell ya!!!
you know, stories like this don't mean shit unless if we're all willing to band together and cancel any services with any company that is in bed with Bush and his ilk. But are we all ready to do that? Something tells me no, and that we're all really too lazy to care, and too busy talking on our Verizon cell phones to notice. But we sure talk a mean game.
hadenuf @ 42:
Qwest was asked to hand over customer records in February 2001. They refused. 9/11 thinking by Bushies when it was pre-9/11.
dennis @ 15:
Thanks for carrying water for Fox Noise & the psycho neocons. Unnamed sources, unverified charges allegedly from 1992. It's all about the Clenis. After how many decades of digging thru garbage, that dog still won't hunt. YAWN Back to the original topic which has lots of actual sources & charges to investigate & prosecute. Or don't you care about this century at all?
giantpeach @ 33:
No one from HP went to jail as all the charges were either dropped or settled out of courts.
I'm glad I have Qwest (Never thought I say that). No need for verizon or At&t or the other 'Douchebag of Liberty' companies. And if Qwest had done it I'd be gone. After making all sorts of annoying calls to anyone here about that practice.
Let's hear it: Boycott these lawbreakers.
You know Big Government, there is such a thing as too much info. How many years will it take, with the present work force, to sift through all that crap you've gathered and squirreled away, like a compulsive hoarder?
This is not all dirty little verizon does. They tapped my phone lines for two employers who wanted to spy on me. Very Dirty Little Boys. Those two large companies no longer exist. Verizon is another matter. To this reality I pose a question: "If a voyeur not a pervert, then what is it"? All of you should be concerned.
Qwest's response to the BushFelons' strong-arm tactics puts the lie to AT&T's lame excuse of abetting criminals.
AT&T = Aiding Tyrants & Traitors
From WP: AT&T and Verizon both argued that the onus should not be on the companies to determine whether the government has lawfully requested customer records. To do so in emergency cases would "slow lawful efforts to protect the public," wrote Randal S. Milch, senior vice president of legal and external affairs for Verizon Business, a subsidiary of Verizon Communications.
sounds pretty patriotic to me....so, yeah, it's cool to be a traitor in that case.
Double check your sources, according to other things I've read today, Randi wasn't mugged -- she apparently fell hard while walking her dog, but there is no indication she was mugged. I'm not saying you're wrong but there is contradictory press to that effect.
Peace @ 11:
[We have a thread on it. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/16/randi-rhodes-assaulted-in-ny/ And it is up to date-her attorney is saying it was a fall-Sitemonitor]
This is NOTHING compared to what is on the books already.
What more can I say:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/101507M.shtml
Throw Verizon's and AT&T's CEO's and boards in prison. Strip them of all government granted licenses, franchises, rights of way, contracts.....everything.
Boycott them and all products that ( for example: Apple iPhone) that use or do business with them.
They are unworthy business partners. Put them out of business.
The way this ends is when a few heads are "rolling around on the ground". Not before.
Paul @ 60:
In Bush-world, they'll get tax cuts, incentive bonuses, and any legislation they might need passed throuh Congress.
"Verizon and AT&T said it was not their role to second-guess the legitimacy of emergency government requests."
Actually, that's perfectly true. The role of evaluating the legitimacy of "emergency government requests" falls to the FISA court, which will happily grant such requests and issue warrants.
Meanwhile, Verizon's job, as a law abiding citizen, is to refuse such requests without a proper warrant.
Why does Verizon still have any customers?
jimbo92107 @ 63:
It's kind of difficult, especially in my area, NYC Metro, to ignore Verizon. I currently get my TV, Internet, landline and cell service from them. If I were to cancel all these services, my options are really limited, especially when it comes to landline services and my monthly bills would go up as I'm getting a "package" deal from Verizon. If I hit them where it hurts (i.e. in the pocket) I'd be hurting myself as well, financially.
There's always Cablevision for Internet and TV and T-Mobile for cell, but the coverage isn't as good as it is with either at&t or Verizon. Does Cablevision hand over Internet customer records?
The problem with technology is that we've come to depend on it so much in our daily lives that it's quiet difficult to live without or having its absence disrupt your livelihood, work, etc.
how's this for timing?!
i just received an offer from Working Assets Wireless. They offer a free contract buyout (up to $200) and offer services in most parts of the country. does anybody have any experience with them?
here's what they say : "Teach Bush the difference between listening and listening in" [...] "the only phone company that joined the ACLU's anti-wiretapping lawsuit against the National Security Agency"
Their plans cost the same as Verizon. Check out www.workingassetswireless.com - and no, i don't work for them!
Anyone who has half a brain would never have anything to do with Verizon or AT&T.
Verizon has an internal e-mail system. It's linked based on geography. Verizon contractors and vendors are included. The e-mail is archived. Some of it is available on the web. Some, previously discussing specific NSA contractors used for fiber optic interception has been removed.
Would encourage all interested in Verizon's involvement to look at the pre-2004 e-mails. The e-mails are available in a data dump provided to the State Attorney Generals. State AG's do not appear to be affected by Federal calls for immunity; state litigation is proceeding on assumption that state privacy statutes are enforceable, and Federal government decision to violate state law does not pre-empt State AG litigation against telecoms, NSA, President, or Federal Government.
Here in Canada, Harper wanted info from Rogers...
Ted Rogers said "Blow it out your ass".
The government has to PROVE it to you, otherwise you get in trouble for BREAKING THE LAW.
Neil @ 68:
You guys seriously need to replace that Harper in the next elections. With Sarokozy and Bush joining forces, it seems that fascism is on the rise in this day and age.
Verizon is too afraid of President Bush because he is very mean & arrogant & always gets his way no matter what. They must submit to him because he is king of the world with enormous power to put a boot up your butt any time he feels like it.
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