From the Top to Bottom government is a racket.

A Government by the Corporations, For the Corporations.

That's what free-market economics gets you!

The only reason I can think of to endorse Hillary Clinton would be if she had truly found a way to outmaneuver man's psychotic war-mongering impulse.

Unfortunately, she just seems to endorse more of the same.

She couldn't figure out her husband was a cheating womanizer and she couldn't figure out Bush was frothing at the mouth to wage imperial aggresion in the Middle East.

She's basically given us no reason to believe she's a leader of any kind.

2008 is their last chance to represent the people.. One more failure, and WE will invoke our right granted by the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, and remove this government, as a whole , and start again with a clean slate...

The Trees of Liberty are very thirsty.

I'm sorry, but I will never forgive that fucking egomaniac!

BTW, maybe what he says is true, but even a broken clock is right twice a day!

Right, Ralph Nader.

The same guy who said there was no difference between Gore and Bush and then proceeded to run and allow the worst qualified candidate in history seize the reigns of power.

When you're THAT wrong about something so big, its hard to take you seriously for anything else.

Nader hasn't been the same since his stroke!

By the way all the democrats who went and protested at Nader's campaign speeches make me sick. Trying to squeeze out a candidate to keep it a Republican/Democrat race is exactly why Nader runs in the first place. People like you only further the political problems of this country.

fuck yea bretheren

aziz @ 16:

By the way all the democrats who went and protested at Nader's campaign speeches make me sick. Trying to squeeze out a candidate to keep it a Republican/Democrat race is exactly why Nader runs in the first place. People like you only further the political problems of this country.

Don't expect to find a whole lot of agreement with your view on this site! Truth is Nader did cost Gore the election. Doesn't matter how you spin it, Nader (with the help of the Supremes) screwed Gore out of the Presidency!

JM @ 3:

A Government by the Corporations, For the Corporations.

That's what free-market economics gets you!

its hardly a free-market. Its manipulated by a private uber mega-bank, and the government is in the pocket of the corporations.

The same guy who said there was no difference between Gore and Bush and then proceeded to run and allow the worst qualified candidate in history seize the reigns of power.

Do you ever remember Gore making the point that Bush was "the worst qualified candidate in history" during the campaign? I remember him agreeing with Bush a bunch of times during the debates. I remember him picking Joe Lieberman as his running mate. I remember him not pushing for a full recall in Florida, which he would have won. It was hardly news to informed people that Bush was a moron.

But I think that if Gore had spent some time cutting Bush to ribbons as he should have during the campaign, his margin of victory might have been great enough that there wouldn't have been a chance for Bush to game the system.

darrelplant @ 24:

The same guy who said there was no difference between Gore and Bush and then proceeded to run and allow the worst qualified candidate in history seize the reigns of power.

Do you ever remember Gore making the point that Bush was "the worst qualified candidate in history" during the campaign? I remember him agreeing with Bush a bunch of times during the debates. I remember him picking Joe Lieberman as his running mate. I remember him not pushing for a full recall in Florida, which he would have won. It was hardly news to informed people that Bush was a moron.

But I think that if Gore had spent some time cutting Bush to ribbons as he should have during the campaign, his margin of victory might have been great enough that there wouldn't have been a chance for Bush to game the system.

thats another good point. blame fucking lieberman. Look at how he does your party nowadays. jews cant be president sorry.

I voted for Ralph. Face it, he was the ONLY Public Servant running. The rest were bought and sold whores.

It's my vote and I will use it the way I want, and the Dems can go F*CK themselves. They have proven to be entirely useless. It's not Impeachment that they put off the table--it's the Constitution.

w00t w00t red sox!! :D

I have a lot of respect for Ralph Nader. His political savvy is a little weak, but his heart is in the right place. I'm glad he never shuts up.

What we need is more democracy not the usual status quo. What we are seeing for leadership is pathetic -- full of campaign advisor filled half-truths and empty corporate lobbying rhetoric. The US population senses that things are terribly wrong and that the world changing without us. Americans are feeling that we are being left behind on a glitzy ship without a rudder. An excellent opportunity for a demagogue to lead people down the rat hole, or a movement of visionaries to enlightening and lead the country out of its stupor. That's why we have everything from demagogue Ron Paul to "corporate-dealing" Hillary Clinton, to the "speaking truth to power" netroots.

Democracy is an organic process. Nader is part of that process. Crooks and Liars is part of that process. Long live a free and open Internet. Help us if we fail to keep this lifeline and hand to the corporatocracy.

Whew, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

We need much more Ralph Nader, and much more like him.

To the clowns who think he caused Gore to lose, please grow up. At least have something constructive to say. Yes, Bush has ruined America, but Nader is the wisest candidate in my lifetime.

In just the latest example of President Bush's mantra that "nothing succeeds like failure," Harvey Johnson has escaped punishment for his bogus FEMA press conference on Thursday, while his PR flack John Philbin is moving on to greener pastures at the office of the Director of National Intelligence.

For the details, see:
"Never a Firing Offense: FEMA PR Frauds Move On and Up."

aziz @ 13:

you are pathetic. of course you blame gore losing on ralph nader. Nader was the only one in the race who cares about the common person and the way the two party system has our election process monopolized. You are brainwashed. Maybe you should blame your democratic party for picking a skeezer like gore in the first place.

One thing is for sure, the American people want regime change, and they want it now.

I agree with both of you.

GonzoD @ 20:

aziz @ 16:

By the way all the democrats who went and protested at Nader's campaign speeches make me sick. Trying to squeeze out a candidate to keep it a Republican/Democrat race is exactly why Nader runs in the first place. People like you only further the political problems of this country.

Don't expect to find a whole lot of agreement with your view on this site! Truth is Nader did cost Gore the election. Doesn't matter how you spin it, Nader (with the help of the Supremes) screwed Gore out of the Presidency!

I disagree with you, Gonzo. Respectfully, but disagree. Does that mean I don't belong on this site?

yogi-one @ 39:

You won't be able to stop it. Corporatocracy is the next big thing. We had feudalism, then we evolved communism, socialism, and democracy, and the idea of a republic.

Corporate government is next and it will be the dominant form of government for the next few hundred years. Already more people depend more on the corporation they work for than the government whose passport they carry. If the corporation wants you to travel, they arrange the visas and other docs you need. If they want you to move to another nation, you just do it, and you function within the subculture of the corporation - such as IBM, Microsoft, Exxon, or many others that span the globe - more than you merge with the local culture. Much like the American military - it's it's own culture spanning the globe, regardless of which country it happens to be in.

Corporatocracy, like the military, is NOT a democracy, but a strict hierarchical authoritarian structure. Dependents of the corporation are taken care of in a socialized way, with the company providing housing, schooling for dependents, and even health care.

Who you work for is going to become the defining factor, not your nationality. To a company like like IBM, HP, Microsoft, or Exxon Mobil your nationality is not really important, nor is your religion. What's important is whether you are an employee, and what your position is inside the corporation.

The corporation is the new way that humans have found to organize their society. There's a lot of flaws in it, and in a lot of ways it fails people.

We are going to find them out the hard way because we are going to organize ourselves according to the corporations we work for.

It is not going to solve our problems, bring peace, feed the people, or prevent disease. Nevertheless, we're going to try it.

the corporation will be named Weyland-Yutani

Don't blame Nader just because Gore ran a shitty campaign and the hopelessly clueless 'murrikan public are as dumb as a sack of hammers.

If anyone wants to actually solve the Ralph Nader/Two Party system problem, I'd think you'd be talking about electoral reform and instant runoff voting. But arguments are sometimes more fun than solutions.

Gore was a lousy candidate then, he'd be a lousy candidate now. He is right on the environment, but he was a conservative Democratic Senator and he would have been another DINO president like Clinton. Course, that beats hell out of the fascist we wound up with.

Nader's mantra "There's not a dime's worth of difference between the parties" could not have been proven more wrong by the usurpation of power by the fascists in power now. His refusal to endorse the lesser of the evils has saddled us with a fascist cabal that do not intend to turn over power when their time is up.

I think it is time for progressives to take back the Democratic Party. Third parties are a great idea in theory - if you can count on the election process continuing while you build support. The suicidal willingness of the Nadarites to bring down the country and end democracy forever in the name of restoring it is beyond justification. Voting for an unelectable third party candidate in a state where the outcome is certain (one way or another) makes sense. Where it is not, it is idiotic.

As lousy a candidate as Gore is and was, he won the popular vote and the 100,000 votes Nader got in Florida would have made the election impossible to steal if they were cast for Gore. In light of what we have seen in the last 7 years, attempts to defend those votes are beyond pathetic.

Having said all that, Nader was at one time a hero in my eyes - the very first real consumer advocate and the most effective one ever. It's a cryin shame his descent into egocentric fanaticism saddled us with a fascist dictator that we may have to shed blood to rid ourselves of. ( Yeah, it's a preposition - I don't care.)

Ralph Nader the Narcissistic Asshole. I'll never forget the day he went on ABC This Week and proudly declared that it wouldn't be that bad if the SCOTUS overturned Roe v. Wade, because then the states could just decide for themselves if they wanted abortion to be legal or not.

Fuck Nader.

What Nader is saying now was said by Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, too. And they were all correct. It's getting worse. Clinton was a pretty good president when he wasn't being 'such a guy', but NAFTA, etc was and is a disaster. Lady Clinton might end up being a decent president in some ways, but I suspect she will coexist with the corpratists rather then subdue them.
Ultimately, the only thing that will bring the corporations down is total economic colapse, but they'll take everone down with them when they go.

UnEasyOne @ 48:

Nader's mantra "There's not a dime's worth of difference between the parties" could not have been proven more wrong by the usurpation of power by the fascists in power now. His refusal to endorse the lesser of the evils has saddled us with a fascist cabal that do not intend to turn over power when their time is up.

Quoted for the frickin' truth.

If anyone here believes that Gore:

- Would allow Oil Companies to jack up the prices willy-nilly since taking office;
- Would gut the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts, break Kyoto, and whitewash Enron;
- Would Cut Taxes for the Rich;
- Would Allow American (in name only) Car Companies to gut the CAFE standards;
- Would let the residents of New Orleans drown and die; and on a further note-
- Would send a Mercenary Army to keep (mostly Black and poor) residents from their homes;
- Would blow the cover of a CIA Analyst - just to get back at a political opponent;
- Would fire the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for making an honest assessment in Congress;
- Would send the Secretary of State to lie to an International Government Body to justify an illegal invasion;
- Would allow several instances of Billions of Dollars "disappearing" from the budget;

Needs to turn in their progressive cards now.

LostInSpace @ 54:

UnEasyOne @ 48:

Nader's mantra "There's not a dime's worth of difference between the parties" could not have been proven more wrong by the usurpation of power by the fascists in power now. His refusal to endorse the lesser of the evils has saddled us with a fascist cabal that do not intend to turn over power when their time is up.

Quoted for the frickin' truth.

If anyone here believes that Gore:

- Would allow Oil Companies to jack up the prices willy-nilly since taking office;
- Would gut the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts, break Kyoto, and whitewash Enron;
- Would Cut Taxes for the Rich;
- Would Allow American (in name only) Car Companies to gut the CAFE standards;
- Would let the residents of New Orleans drown and die; and on a further note-
- Would send a Mercenary Army to keep (mostly Black and poor) residents from their homes;
- Would blow the cover of a CIA Analyst - just to get back at a political opponent;
- Would fire the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for making an honest assessment in Congress;
- Would send the Secretary of State to lie to an International Government Body to justify an illegal invasion;
- Would allow several instances of Billions of Dollars "disappearing" from the budget;

Needs to turn in their progressive cards now.

Yeah - and you'd have been typing all night long if you had completed that list.

The open-minded among us tend to forget that some of the left is just as fanatical as the worst of the right - and just as unwilling to admit a mistake. I remember many arguments I had with some Maoists I knew in the 70s. I remember a SDS guy who told me that he wanted Reagan to be elected "Because when we get Reagan, we get the revolution."

Didn't happen - and I'm just as glad it didn't - if his vision for America had wound up prevailing, us liberals would have been the first to go.

I voted for John Anderson in 1980 - in protest against Carter's refusal to debate Kennedy and his weaseling out of his promise to decriminalize pot, among other things. I was wrong. I am just glad that the election wasn't close. I would never make that mistake again.

See Naderites? That's how it is done; you 'fess up and admit your mistake. I won't guarantee that it will make you feel better, but you will have shown yourself to be capable of rational discussion. If you care.

another vote here for Ralph Nader to go fuck himself sideways with a rusty, ebola-soaked chainsaw.

He wasn't the ONLY reason we got stuck with Bush instead of Gore, but he sure fucking contributed to this mess. If there had been no near-tie in Florida, there would have been no recount, and no Supreme Court selecting the next president.

(Sandra Day O'Connor - who now admits that installing Bush was a lousy fucking idea, thanks a million Captain Obvious - can go fuck herself with that same chainsaw when Ralph is done with it)

HERBY @ 57 "And by the way Gore lost that election himself when he picked Joe Lieberman as his running mate, guarenteeing that no progressive would vote for him.

How then do you explain the fact that he won the election?

Most Americans had no clue who Lieberman was. Still don't.

UnEasyOne @ 48:

Gore was a lousy candidate then, he'd be a lousy candidate now. He is right on the environment, but he was a conservative Democratic Senator and he would have been another DINO president like Clinton."

You think Clinton was DINO? That's pretty funny. Actually, I believe LBJ was a DINO, but Clinton is a Democrat without doubt. Most people fail to factor in the conspiracy that the Gulf War Family represents, and how the media turned on the Dems in consolidation of that conspiracy, and how maybe $100 M was spent trying to bring down our government in the 90s, followed immediately by about a trillion dollars flying out of our Treasury after the Supreme Court crapped on our heads.

Personally, I think Nader was robbed too -- that Greens received the five percent that would have established them. But Nader is some kind of freak with his views, and utterly counterproductive. He's too holy to be a governor or a Senator-- a job he might be qualified for.

Compare Gore to Nader. 24 years of DC experience, versus zero experience and a total intolerance of the compromises that are government on any planet you can name. And every time his negotiations are exposed, he's taking chocolate kisses from the Republicans.

What do you think America will be like 20 years from now?

nsr @ 47:

Gore won FL and I blame him for not fighting. That clip at the beginning of Farenheit 911, where the congressional reps from FL are begging for one person in the Senate to support their complaints about vote stealing-- Gore was presiding over that session. You can't say he didn't know what was going on. He should have been the one to stand up and fight the fact that we were all being ripped off by a bunch of fascists. Same for Kerry. They could still be making a case for it if they gave a damn. Shame on them for being cowards.

J @ 8:

Pretty much like that. Elections being rigged by multinational global corporations for the good of the bottom line. Taxes being cut for the companies and the richest 1% while the country devolves into near 3rd world conditions. The dollar plummeting to new lows that will cause global credit crisis. While the real standard of wealth, oil, will climb to new heights. Expect oil to be double in the next two years. At some point oil will have to be re-evaluated in terms of another currency. That's when the real depression of the 21st century will start. Without any real exports other than movies and corn, the US will slide into obscurity and abject poverty.

It's not a pretty picture unless the people of this country revolt. I really don't expect they will. Most are too stupid and too lazy to even think about fixing the broken systems we have now. If you've ever had the stomach to read any Ayn Rand, you'll recognize Atlas Shrugged as the main theme of our future. Instead of socialism destroying the US by making everyone lazy, it will be corporatism that does it by dumbing down your children, lowering your expectations of what government can do, and by stealing all your money.

Paul in LA @ 60:

HERBY @ 57 "And by the way Gore lost that election himself when he picked Joe Lieberman as his running mate, guarenteeing that no progressive would vote for him.

How then do you explain the fact that he won the election?

Most Americans had no clue who Lieberman was. Still don't.

At the time I agree most Americans did not know who Lieberman was, but I knew, and the progressive groups that I were involved with knew. That election should have never been as close as it was. It should have been a slam dunk for Gore. But because it was close due to his horrendouse campaign, it enabled the rupugnants to steel that election.

At the time of the 2000 election I was living in Lake Mary, Florida. I voted for Ralph Nader and I am proud of my vote.

"There is no man, however wise, who has not at some period of his youth said things, or lived in a way the consciousness of which is so unpleasant to him in later life that he would gladly, if he could, expunge it from his memory."

-Marcel Proust

FACT: Ralph Nader has written the forward to Mike Gravel's book - Citizen Power: A Mandate for Change (which will be out in a week or two! it will also be available free online at his website http://www.gravel2008.us/)

You can listen to Gravel and Nader discuss the current state of politics as well as the book and the National initiative here: http://www.airamerica.com/clout/node/67

Alleged Democrat or not, there is no way a corporatist gets my vote.

CITIZEN POWER 08! @ 70 "You can listen to Gravel and Nader discuss the current state of politics..."

You can bounce your votes off their chests, to make yourself feel better, or you can vote for the Republican directly.

• The Democrats in a stronger caucus is the ONLY thing that is going to roll back what has been going on.

Nader and the disaffiliated leftists will not produce a President next year, and you know it.

How much money has been pumped into banking since this sub-prime meltdown? It's always in the newspaper on page 6 or 8 in a tiny little box. I saw one last week-- another $25 billion, quietly given to banks: your tax dollars for their bad behaviour. But no health care for kids, that might bankrupt the treasury.

Paul i"m not going to play your game but let me say this 60 million votes for the National Initiative overrides the supreme court and creates a fourth check in our system of checks and balances.. WE THE PEOPLE. http://www.vote.org/act http://www.ni4d.us/
or we can't just can just continue to give of power away next November, remember LAWMAKING IS THE CENTRAL POWER OF GOVERNMENT the NATIONAL INITIATIVE enables the 100+ million voters they same power as the Congress in cooperation with the congress. Gravel is a visionary Nader firmly supports this idea you have dismissed it in great folly.

CITIZEN POWER 08! @ 78 "Paul i"m not going to play your game but let me say this 60 million votes"

What 60 million votes are you talking about?

"for the National Initiative overrides the supreme court and creates a fourth check in our system of checks and balances... enables the 100+ million voters they same power as the Congress in cooperation with the congress."

If that is English, I'm French. You are claiming to have organized 60 million people? What, are you holding a picnic?

HERBY @ 66 "At the time of the 2000 election I was living in Lake Mary, Florida. I voted for Ralph Nader and I am proud of my vote."

Vote for whom you please. The truly unfortunate fact is that you failed to organize your state to oppose Jeb Bush or K. Harris. Simply voting for Nader was not enough of a program for change.

E Ryno @ 81 "Last time around it was Howard Dean. A "legend" was created that he was "unstable". I remember hearing the reports and then low and behold came the "scream" which was taken out of context and played over 600 times."

That was making something that was not there, there.

• But white supremacist groups support Ron Paul for a reason, having very much to do with his rhetoric. For instance, white supremacists don't like the UN. Ron Paul wants us to withdraw from the UN.

It's a match. Dean's scream didn't exist, but Ron Paul's stated desire to close the UN does. He also has worked hard to 'protect' people like Bush from the International Criminal Court, another body he would work to eliminate.

Daily Reading pt 1...

UN issues 'final wake-up call' on population and environment - http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/25/europe/environ.php
The human population is living far beyond its means and inflicting damage on the environment that could pass points of no return, according to a major report issued Thursday by the United Nations.
Choice is clear in 08'.....save the planet, vote democratic....rapture express WWIII, vote republican

No Blood for No Oil - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-kaplan/no-blood-for-no-oil_b_70139.html
A piece by Peter K. Ashton on NiemanWatchdog.org, demonstrates that the tightness in oil inventories (which freemarketeers invoke to 'splain the spike in oil prices whenever Cheney growls) isn't some Natural Law we have to just live with, but rather the result of a conscious policy by oil companies to suppress supply, reap unprecedented profits, and miserably fail, by the way, to reinvest those bazillions into increased refining capacity.

Great Lakes key front in water wars - http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-water_bdoct28,1,36120...
But potentially huge battles over water are looming in the Great Lakes region as cities, towns and states near and far fight for access to the world's largest body of fresh surface water, all of it residing in the five Great Lakes.

'I Don't Think This Place Is Worth Another Soldier's Life': After 14 months in a Baghdad district torn by mounting sectarian violence, members of one U.S. unit are tired, bitter and skeptical.
- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/26/AR200710...

CNN: Here comes $100 oil, and $3 gas. With crude setting new highs every day, experts say there's no way motorists won't see a spike at the pump. - http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/26/news/economy/gas_oil/index.htm?cnn=yes
Its way past time to move past OLD ENERGY.....AMERICAN ENERGY INDEPENDENCE...SET THE EXAMPLE FOR THE WORLD

Derrick Jackson: The Budget Lies That Haunt Us - http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/10...

Edwards Comes Out Against "Globalization" Trade Deal With Peru That is in the Corporatized Spirit of NAFTA and CAFTA - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4853669a-859b-11dc-8170-0000779fd2ac.html?ncli...
Good, these 'magic bean' 'world is flat/free market tooth fairy' trade deals are destroying this country

Polls don't reflect Obama's star power - http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama29oct29,0,6297250.story?...

Smarmy @ 83 "Ralph Nader tells the blunt truth."

While succeeding in doing NOTHING about it.

"We need to ask: does our vote count?"

Let's name the voting rights bills from the Republicans. OK, that was easy, now how about the Democrats? ALL OF THEM. Is Saint Ralph correct that these are the same party? No, he is not.

"Do we have to continue to wonder where Hillary is getting all this money to campaign? Reviled by all, she seems to be winning. She's going to be as 'legitimately elected' president as was Bush."

No, she'll win the popular vote.

One last post ... Gravel has the voting system for the National Initiative in place what if we were to circumvent the electoral college,Diebold(now named Premier Election Systems) with Gravel's Philadelphia II http://www.philadelphiaii.org/ It's time to think outside the box, stop whining WAKEUP and support GRAVEL! and his NATIONAL INITIATIVE or just give your vote away next November..

http://www.house.gov/jackson/VotingRightsFAQ.htm

Paul in LA @ 82:

HERBY @ 66 "At the time of the 2000 election I was living in Lake Mary, Florida. I voted for Ralph Nader and I am proud of my vote."

Vote for whom you please. The truly unfortunate fact is that you failed to organize your state to oppose Jeb Bush or K. Harris. Simply voting for Nader was not enough of a program for change.

Boy it must be nice to view things in simple blacks and white. If you read my posts a little closer you might have come to the realization that I was involved with quite a few progressive organizations, which actively opposed and confronted brother Bush,

I was a board member of Central Floridians against Censorship and the local ACLU. I was the press secretary for Voices for Animals and was very active in The Green Party.

I was also involved with NOW, and would get up every weekend at 4:30 AM to make sure there weren't any Bombs planted at the OB-GYN that I was doing clinic defense for.

I actively campaigned against Jeb several times.

So you see, I did a little more than simply voting for Nader.

There were a variety of failures in the Gore campaignof 2000. One of the largest was his campaign's approach toward Nader, which was to try to drown Nader's voice out, rather than convince him that indeed Gore's perspective was different--Gore presented himself as merely the lesser of two evils. Even Gore sees the limits of party politics in the Presidential race today, which is why he continues to demur about running.
Great nations always fall from within as a result of their leaders' hubris that one can make deals with devil and come out on top. It's just a matter of time, but as in all things those of us least able to cover our own asses, will be those who suffer most for what has gone awry.

UnEasyOne @ 56:

LostInSpace @ 54:

UnEasyOne @ 48:

Nader's mantra "There's not a dime's worth of difference between the parties" could not have been proven more wrong by the usurpation of power by the fascists in power now. His refusal to endorse the lesser of the evils has saddled us with a fascist cabal that do not intend to turn over power when their time is up.

Quoted for the frickin' truth.

If anyone here believes that Gore:

- Would allow Oil Companies to jack up the prices willy-nilly since taking office;
- Would gut the Clean Air & Clean Water Acts, break Kyoto, and whitewash Enron;
- Would Cut Taxes for the Rich;
- Would Allow American (in name only) Car Companies to gut the CAFE standards;
- Would let the residents of New Orleans drown and die; and on a further note-
- Would send a Mercenary Army to keep (mostly Black and poor) residents from their homes;
- Would blow the cover of a CIA Analyst - just to get back at a political opponent;
- Would fire the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for making an honest assessment in Congress;
- Would send the Secretary of State to lie to an International Government Body to justify an illegal invasion;
- Would allow several instances of Billions of Dollars "disappearing" from the budget;

Needs to turn in their progressive cards now.

Yeah - and you'd have been typing all night long if you had completed that list.

The open-minded among us tend to forget that some of the left is just as fanatical as the worst of the right - and just as unwilling to admit a mistake. I remember many arguments I had with some Maoists I knew in the 70s. I remember a SDS guy who told me that he wanted Reagan to be elected "Because when we get Reagan, we get the revolution."

Didn't happen - and I'm just as glad it didn't - if his vision for America had wound up prevailing, us liberals would have been the first to go.

I voted for John Anderson in 1980 - in protest against Carter's refusal to debate Kennedy and his weaseling out of his promise to decriminalize pot, among other things. I was wrong. I am just glad that the election wasn't close. I would never make that mistake again.

See Naderites? That's how it is done; you 'fess up and admit your mistake. I won't guarantee that it will make you feel better, but you will have shown yourself to be capable of rational discussion. If you care.

Admit our mistakes? Fucking sell-out baby boomers like you are the reason our country is going down the shithole. "Gee, my elected representative totally fucked me over and didn't do anything he promised, as a rational human being I can see that this is totally my fault, and he deserves my votes because the 'other guy' is worse."

You goddamn sellout yuppies.

Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and Bush are all different sides of the same turd. They've been our "only choices" the last 16 YEARS because the people who truly weild power in this country (Oil, Media, and the assorted lords of lesser money) have engineered it to be that way. Do you think it's a coincidence that Gore and Kerry both ran shitty campaigns? Do you honestly think they weren't capable of more? Both of them failed to make the effort their voters deserved to protest their election "loss".

The fix is in, people. The Dems have just become a control rod in the fascist reactor. They'll put one in the office every few years, when it looks like the population is about to melt down. We'll all praise the heavens that "our gal" isn't doing half the evil shit that "their guy" was, even though she will fail to undo any of the damage to our constitution that's already been done.

You boomers need to "face up" to the fact that you've been a generation of shameful leadership. Your kids have become "Generation Me", a testament to your failure at home, and your country has become "World War Nation III", a testament to your failure to realize the revolution you sparked to oust the people that are currently in power.

All I can really do is hope that my own revolutionary zeal outlives you.

HERBY @ 92:

Paul in LA @ 82:

HERBY @ 66 "At the time of the 2000 election I was living in Lake Mary, Florida. I voted for Ralph Nader and I am proud of my vote."

Vote for whom you please. The truly unfortunate fact is that you failed to organize your state to oppose Jeb Bush or K. Harris. Simply voting for Nader was not enough of a program for change.

Boy it must be nice to view things in simple blacks and white. If you read my posts a little closer you might have come to the realization that I was involved with quite a few progressive organizations, which actively opposed and confronted brother Bush,

I was a board member of Central Floridians against Censorship and the local ACLU. I was the press secretary for Voices for Animals and was very active in The Green Party.

I was also involved with NOW, and would get up every weekend at 4:30 AM to make sure there weren't any Bombs planted at the OB-GYN that I was doing clinic defense for.

I actively campaigned against Jeb several times.

So you see, I did a little more than simply voting for Nader.

Don't waste your time debating with that one Herby, Paul is a true believer in the Dem way.
He swallowed that bait long ago and gets very upset if you challenge his chosen organization.

Unthinking drone comes to mind.
But more to the point, he is an unmitigated hypocrite and Party fan boy.

To Paul in L.A.:

Can you point out one Democratic candidate that doesn't take money from REPUBLICAN corporations?

Anybody know how to beat this machine? The Clinton machine, the corporate machine? Grassroots doesn't seem to work anymore. I'm beginning to think the machine is too big and the only choice is to opt out.

Does anyone else wonder why is it the "Partys " get to choose the nominee? How about letting the American people choose by allowing them all on the ballot. Two go arounds, the second vote is for the two or three that get the top numbers. Who said Repubs or Dems should make the pick?

I voted for Nader in the primaries - wish I'd voted for him in the GE. If he'd have been elected, at least he would have taken the job.

If anyone would like to see a film that expands on many of the subjects covered in Naders piece go to http://www.freedomtofascism.com/ and watch Arron Russo's 'Freedom to Fascism'. It's a real eye opener!

[Goodbye.]

[Goodbye.]

I wonder if the ronpaulspammers get paid to send out mis-info over the web? sad time ... then you have the kooch morons who refuse to let him go then the total idiots the gore fools.... i digress..

This video explains why all supporters of the Libertarian Party (and supporters of Ron Paul) are absolutely crazy. They want to give all power to corporations, and remove the one thing that protects the public from these predatory monsters: government regulation. Who would choose to give big businesses more power, profits and control at the expense of workers' rights, human rights, the environment, etc.?

Ron Paul would.

The King Tut show is coming to Dallas in the next year or so!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvmiJQSl5hM

AbbeyHoffmansGhost @ 105:

J @ 8:

What do you think America will be like 20 years from now?

Ten times scarier than it is now.

Oh so true.

I don't care what Nader says about anything. He is the reason we are in this shit today. Now I am not saying that Gore would have been all that great or that we would be doing anything differently then we are but at least we would still have faith in the process of elections,we would still have faith in the DOJ,we would be dealing with sane people who think science is a good thing, who think that birth control should be supported not short changed and on and on and on. SO for Nader I have no regard and really really really can't stand to listen to him (I did not watch this) It doesn't matter what he says wether it is right or not...bottom line thousands of people a innocent people are dead in part becasue of Naders idiocy!

Oh yeah and don't forget Nader was getting money from Republicans to get on ballots and run his campaign. From 2004:

GOP donors funding Nader
Bush supporters give independent's bid a financial lift
Carla Marinucci, Chronicle Political Writer

Friday, July 9, 2004

Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader -- still not on the ballot in a single state -- has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party, an analysis of federal records show.

Nearly one in 10 of Nader's major donors -- those writing checks of $1, 000 or more -- have given in recent months to the Bush-Cheney campaign, the latest documents show. GOP fund-raisers also have "bundled" contributions -- gathering hefty donations for maximum effect to help Nader, who has criticized the practice in the past.

To Son of liberty @96

Talk is cheap.

Makes me sad that you know so little history. We boomers credit our parents and grandparents for the labor movement that got you the minimum wage, the 40 hour week and dozens of other things you take for granted.

We picked up the torch with the civil rights movement and forced the most powerful government in the world to end one lousy war. We bled and some of us died for that.

You want the winds of change to flow around you? GREAT! Right now, your generation can't even be bothered to vote - much less fight. You have been suckered. Divide et impera - Ceaser said it first - divide and rule (or conquer). Instead of telling us what assholes we are, maybe you ought to try to learn something. We have been where you are - we fought and we won.

But the war will never end. Jefferson said that the tree of liberty needs the blood of patriots of every generation - at least once a generation in order to thrive - or even
survive.

You are blessed with the very best organizing tools in human history; the cell phone, the internet,the ipod and so on - use em!

If you do anything more than babble about how we screwed things up, you'll find a whole lot of gray heads on the front lines with you - just like we did.

Call me a yuppie when I get there though, and I just might whip your ass.

keytronic @ 12:

Right, Ralph Nader.

The same guy who said there was no difference between Gore and Bush and then proceeded to run and allow the worst qualified candidate in history seize the reigns of power.

When you're THAT wrong about something so big, its hard to take you seriously for anything else.

Yeah, like you are not the one who is "THAT wrong" about something so big.

So Nader "proceeded to run and allow the worst qualified candidate in history to seize the reigns of power?"

Uh, excuse me? Do you have anything besides diarrhea between your ears?

Under our cherished constitution (you had civics in grade school, yes?), Ralph Nader had every right to run for president. Just as much a right as that shit-for-brains who is sitting in the oval office. Ralph didn't "allow" the worst qualified asshole to "seize" power. The idiots who VOTED for the putz did (with a little help from Diebold and the Supremes).

Not a single person who exercised their constitutional right and voted for Nader is responsible for Bush sitting in the white house. In fact, if you wish to blame anyone aside from the Amerikkkan voter, I suggest you begin to take a cold, hard look at you hero Al Bore, who not only ran the lamest campaign in modern history, but didn't have the balls to fight it out despite having WON THE @*#$! ELECTION (and not just the popular vote).

When you succeeed in finding what's left of your brain, you might try and use some of the remaining grey matter to do a little pondering. You know, about some of the facts surrounding the 2000 election debacle. Like the fact that more people in Florida voted for the Libertarian (and other third party candidates) for president than voted for Nader, yet idiots like you continue this ridiculously stupid mantra of only Ralph being the "spoiler", and those that voted for him as "owing" Bore our votes. I've never heard one of you blaming the Libertarians or the Peace and Freedom party candidates for placing W on his throne, let alone the "Reagan Democrats" who voted for Shrub.

Wake up, will you? You been asleep for almost eight years now.

If Al Bore was so worried about Nader "spoiling" his run, and if the heroic Al Bore also sided with Ralph on issues like global warming and the ones discussed in the YouTube clip, then why didn't Bore embrace Ralph as an ally, instead of attacking him? Why did Bore and the DLC goons try so hard to keep Ralph out of the debates? Bore could have offered a deal for Ralph to bring his supporters over to his campaign in exchange for say, making Ralph head of the EPA or Consumer Safety, or some other post (as Carter did with Joan Claybrook), but no....in the DLC it's not about building calitions, it's all about "triangulation", remember?

You and your midnless ilk make me want to vomit. Ralph had the constitutional right to run for president, and I had the constitutional right to vote for him as the candidate I considered to be best qualified to lead this fucked-up nation of ours. If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you join the rethuglicans in their efforts to continue shredding what remains of the constitution.

HERBY@93 -

I was also involved with NOW, and would get up every weekend at 4:30 AM to make sure there weren’t any Bombs planted at the OB-GYN that I was doing clinic defense for.

So, in light of that, how do you feel about the fact that Nader was so willing to see Roe v. Wade overturned and women's reproductive rights eviscerated?

If Mrs. DLC gets the nomination, I will vote for Ralph. If his name isn't on the ballot, I'll write it in.
I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than vote for Hillary, the Repuke-lite candidate.

HERBY @ 93 "So you see, I did a little more than simply voting for Nader."

If only more had.

Surely you aren't arguing that Nader voters are all like you?

Most are voting their dissatisfaction, and the rhetoric. Most are NOT working within a political system they see as rigged (as if that was news).

Symes, now that you have announced you are leaving the country and turning in your citizenship there is really no point in rebutting your namecalling.

According to you, I'm 'self-righteous' because rather than flee to Europe, I'm staying right here and FIGHTING.

You, you claim to have been a Marine, but your refugee flight out of here isn't exactly honorable.

Paul in LA @ 137:

Symes, now that you have announced you are leaving the country and turning in your citizenship there is really no point in rebutting your namecalling.

According to you, I'm 'self-righteous' because rather than flee to Europe, I'm staying right here and FIGHTING.

You, you claim to have been a Marine, but your refugee flight out of here isn't exactly honorable.

Nope, you are trying to put words in my mouth again authoritarian.

You are self righteous because your way is the only way, period. No discussion.

My leaving a losing battle to protect my blood is certainly more honorable than staying to fight and getting arrested.
I don't see how going to a camp as an enemy of the state is being honorable to my family.
You are an idiot for implying such a thing.
Once again, you tossed out how YOUR family was so big on serving, have you? Answer wisely little troll, basking in your families past honors is not honorable in and of itself.

I am right about you, and you know it.

Herby @ 138 "the incident that kept most progressives (that I know of) out of the Al Gore camp was him picking Joe Lieberman as a running mate."

I think that's nonsense, given your (Nader's) rhetoric. Why would you support a Republican?

"Vote for Nader or don't vote at all."

Exactly the kind of bullshit attitude I was talking about that you said you didn't represent. You either fight for change WITH the actual going-to-be politicians in power, or you sit on your hands and feel virtuous.

WHAT has Nader accomplished in the last seven years? Bupkis. I remember when leftists fought for voting rights. These days, most just bark at the moon and feel justified when it doesn't respond.

Paul in LA @ 140:

Symes @ 139 "Nope, you are trying to put words in my mouth again authoritarian."

Hey, you were the one who was a Marine (so you say). YOU were the one who kissed boots in bootcamp, not me.

Go take your family where you think you need to, and mazel tov. What does that have to do with me? Nothing. Your namecalling and trying to 'warn' others is pathetic. I'm about as much of an 'authoritarian' as Thomas Jefferson, probably less.

Come on Paul, you are a disingenuous hypocrite!
Rules and laws bend at your whim to make the argument YOU want, and you have been using right wing attack tactics for as long as I can find posts of you.

You go balls out after ANYONE who dares to say anything bad about your precious Democrats, ignoring the fact that they are as bought as the Republicans at this point. Sure there are a COUPLE of Dmes who are still cool, but a couple is far from a majority. And you are as rabid about them as any wingnut is about GW.

You are an authoritarian... perhaps NeoLiberal? Sounds about right. Same game, different name.

So how about it, you tried to shame me with your families service a couple of article back, but I DID serve.
Did you? Probably not, you are just living off your families honor. So much for yours.

Paul in LA @ 141:

Herby @ 138

"Vote for Nader or don't vote at all."

Exactly the kind of bullshit attitude I was talking about that you said you didn't represent. You either fight for change WITH the actual going-to-be politicians in power, or you sit on your hands and feel virtuous.

I don't represent that attitude, I was in Nader's camp from the very beginning. I was talking about some of the progressives I know that were in the Gore camp until he picked Lieberman.

Um I believe your claim of Nader taking a huge amount of money from republican groups was addressed in the Nader/Dean debates. Maybe you should watch them and GET A CLUE about how the democratic party cares about the common person.

Just another democrat talking point in an attempt to try and repulse left wing voters from ralph nader.

and mozel tov? hahahahahahaha jesus

Paul in LA @ 141:

WHAT has Nader accomplished in the last seven years? Bupkis. I remember when leftists fought for voting rights. These days, most just bark at the moon and feel justified when it doesn't respond.

So we say thank you Ralph for OSHA, the EPA, The Consumer Product Saftey Administration, The Safe Drinking Water Act, The Freedom of Information Act, The Wholesome Meat Act, and the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Saftey Act, but what have you done for me lately?

BTW I personally think taking on the corrupt two-party system that is so beholden to corporate interest that it has brought us to the precipice of Fascism is a pretty balsey thing to do, so again... Thanks Ralph.