Democrats Love Their Candidates, GOP Fractured - Base Hates McCain
By Logan Murphy Friday Feb 08, 2008 3:33pm
This morning on MSNBC anchor Alex Witt spoke with Pat Buchanan and Democratic strategist Peter Fenn about the campaign thus far and a new Newsweek poll which shows Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in a dead heat nationwide, but with a large number of undecided voters. The poll also shows the reality of this year's race -- Democrats are happy with their candidates, while the GOP is deeply fractured and unhappy with their choices.
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Despite some of the back and forth issues between Clinton and Obama this primary season, the Democratic Party is in a unique and enviable position. 84% of Democrats in this Newsweek poll say they are satisfied with their candidate being the nominee for president, while the base of the GOP absolutely loathes their front runner, John McCain. Peter Fenn brings up a scathing article in the current issue of The American Conservative which says McCain is unfit to serve as the Commander in Chief. Even Pat Buchanan, who notes the Superdelegate issue could be a problem for the party, can't deny the divide, acknowledging the Democrats are looking good compared to his party.
Buchanan:"But there's no doubt the Democratic party is far more united than that crowd I usually hang out with."
Pam Spaulding looks at the election cycle that breaks all the rules and has the establishment in knots.
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I love watching the MSM telling everybody how McCain can beat Hillary or Obama. The fact McCain wants us in Iraq for a hundred years is enough for voters to reject him. The splintering of Repukes is downright entertaining. I really want to see if Coulter campaigns for Hillary or Dobson to sit out of the election. Will they hold up to their end of the bargain or is it just bullshit?
You think the GOP is fractured now?
I guarantee you on Nov 4, 2008 the GOP will be battered, tattered, and shattered.
There is going to be a MAJOR ASS WHUMPIN no matter who the Dems nominate, Hillary or Barack.
People in this country are hurtin fer certain and are done with Republican conservative rule.
Stick a fork in em, the GOP is done for at least a generation, maybe longer.
The liberals in this country should be loving it. Either way, they get a liberal in the White House come Jan 09.
Paul @ 3:
Shouldn't you put quotes around liberal? We get a "liberal"???
Yeah. Right.
We need to Unite against McCain and stop eating our own. Hear me Randi, Stephanie?;-)
Don't count your chocolate bunnies, before they poop any jelly beans.
Over confidence can depress voter turn-out as much and lack of confidence.
Very good article!
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/08/6923/
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/08/6923/
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/08/6923/
Why do people say 'liberal' like it is a dirty word? If it wasn't for so-called 'liberals' we would have no regulations for clean air, no safety standards and no government watch dog agencies. Quite frankly I would rather hang out with a 'liberal' than a back-water ignorant old red boy Republican any day of the week.
It seems that some in the media are trying to push the idea that if Hillary gets the nod, Obama voters won't vote for her and vice versa. I think they are wrong. I know as a Obama supporter, I will happily vote for Hillary.
Don't let the media keep stirring this pot until lots of people believe it's true. Rumors like this can take on a real life if they are not shot down repeatedly. We do not want to divide our party. Let the repubs divide theirs and lets keep ours together, no matter who gets the nomination. We all know either of ours will be better than the best of theirs.
Still say I think republican ticket will be McCain / Romney '08.
I know, Romney said he wouldn't be VP. But Romney's changed his position before/ (One thing to say you were wrong on an issue, but going from one ideology to another? Now that's flip-flopping.) Romney has made it clear he's willing to take one for the party. And Cheney has made the office of VP almost as strong as the presidency. I think that gives some foundation to my guess he'll be VP on the republican ticket.
Now for McCain to accept him I think we'll need to see him getting dismal turn out by Republicans in the next few primaries. If he starts getting as many votes as Huckabee (and perhaps even Ron Paul) up to April 23rd, I think the RNC can convince him to add Romney to his platform.
If republican voting goes this way then I'd expect an announcement a bit before the Republican convention. Then a week of stoking the CPAC troops about how now the country is sa-aved so they'll forget their current animosity towards McCain.
Yes I am still talking out the top of my head. Just getting tired of nodding how this "fractured" GOP seems to be part of the RNC plan. And want to move on to the question of what happens next.
Regarding the American Conservative. Their foreign policy views line up with Ron Paul/Pat Buchanan. Raimondo has been pushing Paul for 5 years, and is the editorial director at antiwar.com, so that article is hardly shocking. I also happen to agree with the contents of his foreign policy analysys, as would most people who freequent this site, though I don't like him on issues concerning the welfare state. Anyway, it's not representative of the base of the republican party, unless you consider Paul the base. If he were, this world would be better off (I'd still vote for Obama over Paul, given the chance, but because of the nature of her militarism, I'd take Paul over Clinton)
Thing Fish @ 10:
Mormons are not well received in the south so I'm not sure about Romney, He is quite flippity- floppity too.
they didn't interview me. and I'm not happy if Hillary gets the nod. you people are delusional or too young to remember just how great it was under Clinton.
I hate to agree with McCain EVER, but what Change has Clinton ever brought to this country?
It has to be Obama or this country doesn't move ahead....
repugs are full of shit. They are making it appear that the dems are going to win by default (because they hate mccain) not because under chimpy's rule everything went south and he's a dummy warmongering crook.
It's a wonder anyone in their right mind would claim to be a repug.
----Firefox: I don't have a scroll bar (bottom nor side) and the right side is cutted off.----
well i am not FUCKING satisfied with our candidates!!!!!
they SUCK!!!
change my ass!!! they will feed at the military industrial congressional mediatainment big pharma buffet FOREVER!!!!!
and we will become a third world nation with our overclass LORDS ruling us with bread and the boob tube!!!
YAY!!!
Conservatives are conservatives because they are not able to think for themselves. They'll come around and tow the party line come November, especially if Hillary is our candidate.
Paul will be factored into the equation sooner or later. He is a force and they will eventually have to acknowledge that. Like it or not. Many will be forced to hold their collective noses to develop the repug ballot offering.
Paul @ 3:
James @ 11:
well said
Buchanan:”But there’s no doubt the Democratic party is far more united than that crowd I usually hang out with.”
What unites the crowd Buchanan hangs with are the bibles in their hands and white sheets over their heads.
Are the Democrats satisfied with their candidates are showing support because they are not Republicans? Since Edwards bowed out I'm supporting Obama because he's not Hillary and would give a potted plant an 84% approval rating if it were running against a Republican.
Uh, click on the 'base of the GOP' link and tell me what those two are holding? Is it what I think it is?
Yikes!
Watching this Washington caucus unfold live and candidly is so fascinating. The CNN reporter is on the phone with CNN HQ to ask whether they want to air a live interview with Governor Gregoire when she stops by the caucus site in about 20 minutes. She just said "She's for Obama, that's the only problem.
She then said "AM I LIVE NOW???"
Digg this:
http://www.digg.com/2008_us_elections/CNN_refuses_to_air_interview_with_...
I don't think Obama can get elected THIS YEAR. His "vision thing" is great, but he has no real GOVERNING experience.
The Republicans (and media conglomerates) are scared TO DEATH of Hillary in the White House... and will do, and say, ANYTHING to help Obama win the nod from the Democratic Party. IF that happens, they will SWIFT-BOAT Obama over his lack of experience, over his name, over his religion... and lack of religion, and whatever else you can think of.
Huckabee took Kansas and everyone knows McCain will be the GOP candidate, but they are still voting Huckabee... what does that tell ya?
I love Air Hockey
IdahoMoe @ 12:
I think a Morman would be better recieved than, woman (especially Hillary) or a black man (even Keyes).
This is the calm before the storm.
If the Democratic Party goes to a brokered convention in which the superdelegates decide the nominee, then the party will crash upon itself and McCain will win going away. Against John McCain, Democrats need the Independents to turn out. They're not going to turn out, along with the youth, if the nominee isn't selected by the voters and only the voters.
CowboyBob in Austin @ 24:
You really believe what you just wrote?
Mister Anderson @ 28:
I believe the swift boat portion of what he wrote.
In the end, Republicans will unite behind McCain. Just as most Democrats will unite behind either Obama or Clinton. Primaries are always the time when activists try to push their parties to address the issues that they care about. For example, hard right Republican activist Richard A. Viguerie has been threatening to leave the party for about the last 25 years, but every campaign season he falls back into line only to return again to attack the party for being too moderate.
The worst thing Democrats can do right now is to get cocky and underestimate the Republican party or the gullibility of your average voter to fall for their demagoguery and dirty tricks. Remember, Republicans enjoy the advantage of almost complete synthesis with the Corporate Media. The average person believes the PR constructed image of McCain as a "straight talking, authentic, moderate maverick." Polls already show that beating McCain in a general election will be an uphill battle, especially for Clinton.
Ruthless People @ 29:
True. The swift-boating will never stop. It's ingrained in the Republican playbook now; it's been shown to work. Reality is, though, the 'pubs would use it no matter who the Democratic nominee was.
Unlike Kerry, Obama has shown a propensity to hit back head-on (for example, he took on Bill Clinton--which I saw as a good sign).
The fact is, McCain has given Democrats MILES of videotaped missteps they can run campaign ads on: "Bomb, bomb Iran;" "I don't know much about the economy;" staying in Iraq for "a hundred" years; his flip-flop in 2000 about abortion. Really, who is he?
Repugnicants won't like a Democrat no matter what, but McCain has SAID so many things they won't like, either. He's a ready-made advertisement for a Democratic presidency, if the Dems just dig a little bit.
Are all of you morons or something?
How many times are you going to fall for the radical right's rope a dope crap?
This is WAAAAAYYYY too organized, from the top to the bottom, and doesn't match up with the voting patterns.
This is talking points.
This is strategy.
This is simply the same old Fred Phelps strategy on a larger scale.
For those not in the know, if you are a radical right winger, like Fallwell (may he rot in Hell), or even Huckabee now (the other day), you simply call old Freddie and cut a deal for him to come protest you, in order to make you look a bit more mainstream.
Same old tricks. This is just on a larger scale. The radical right has been pushing the idea of McCain for the past decade and a half, and yet now, they all abandon him? I for one don't buy this, and am chalking it up as a strategic move to make his candidacy look more mainstream, BECAUSE AMERICA IS SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF RADICAL JIHADIST CHRISTIAN ASSHOLES WHO WANT TO START ARMAGEDDON, even though the entire Republican Party is composed of such people from the top to the bottom.
Don't fall for the rope-a-dope. Just like Ali kicked Foreman's ass in Zaire, the RADICAL JIHADIST CHRISTIAN ASSHOLES WHO WANT TO START ARMAGEDDON also can still kick our ass if we fall for their bullshit pretending not to support the man promising to give them ARMAGEDDON.
I might add, that this is the same man who sold America down the drain in Hanoi, and became Ho Chi Minh's go-to guy whenever he needed a happy faced POW to put in front of the foreign media and whom would gladly badmouth America to the enemy. McCain is a TRAITOR! McCain was Ho Chi Minh's sock puppet! Uncle Ho would shove his arm up McCain's ass, and McCain would sing any song they wanted him to sing to the foreign press!
Anyhow, don't let the Traitorous Christians who want to replace America with a Christo-Fascist Iran-like government fool you one bit. THESE PEOPLE LOVE MCCAIN BECAUSE HE'LL GIVE THEM ARMAGEDDON!
EnderW @ 32:
And ARMAGEDDON means the end of the United States Government, and the beginning of Christo-Fascist Theocracy!
Here's the deal... First of all where is Karl Rove when the GOP clearly appears to need some dirty tricks?
Second, It will be Jeb riding into the GOP convention on a big white horse to save all their collective asses. The big white horse will have been trained by Karl, (W can't do it as he's afraid of horses). Think about the Bush brand all dressed up by Karl, without the taint of W's failures, it's a love fest waiting to happen in hate land... Can you say Terri Shiavo? Stay tuned for Huck-a-buck or Mitt as willing VP choices serving the House of Bush.
Curiously, McCain will still hug and love W forever and ever, amen; no matter how many times he's stung. McCain is a tortured POW again, a "Prisoner of W".
Both Democratic candidates will face a firestorm of attacks by the Corporate Media that will attempt to define them in the most unfavorable light as soft on terrorism and inflate every perceived misstep real and manufactured (mostly manufactured). If you don't think so, you have lost sight of the last several election cycles which were Democrats to lose only. False PR constructions were employed to ridicule Al Gore and John Kerry to make them appear inauthentic and George Bush as a straight-talking everyman that you could have a beer with. It did not matter that these images had nothing to do with reality, the public bought it because The Big Lie routine was repeated over and over again in the media while policy positions and facts were shunted aside by horse race coverage.
George @ 34:
Can answer the first, Rove's on FOX (surprise, surprise).
Wowsers, McCain just offered Secretary of State to Henry Kissinger!
that crowd I usually hang out with
He can't even bring himself to say it.
"Republican" has become synonymous with "fucking idiot."
Well if you buy the "DEMS LOVE THEIR CANDIDATES" meme don't listen to that screeching banshee, Lynn Samuels, I have to wonder how she keeps a radio program even on Sirius!!! In fact there are several on the LEFT channel that are beyond annoying...YEGODS...if it weren't for Wait, Wait...and Prairie Home Companion and some good jazz I'd sell off the Sirius...we got it for AAR and then they jumped to XM...but that station has undergon a lowering of the bar as well...sorry, Rachel...
Again, who says the Bush crowd is just going to agreeably walk away in a year?
Ruthless People @ 29:
Swift-boating will be a ongoing Republican tactic no matter they nominee. But if the Clinton campaign is the strongest political machine in at least 40 years and they can't knock them out, how is John McCain going to fair any better being that the Republican party hates him more than they hate Obama? We already know he's Black. We already know his middle name. Democrats and Independents don't vote on religion, even if Obama was a muslim, so that's a NON-FACTOR.
HRC has far more negatives than Obama for the right to attack. And in a head-to-head, McCain can draw Independents away from her. And depending on how this nomination is settled, many Independents and youth may either sit out the national or vote for McCain to spite the Democratic party.
I'm registered as a Independent because I'm not going to be blindly loyal to either party. I guarantee if the Democrats nominate Hillary, there's a 50/50 chance that they will lose in November, with the odds favoring a defeat every month the Democratic primary lingers on.
So I suppose we can call those who still want to divide us the "16%-ers?"
Sure, they didn't interview YOU, but they polled 16 out of every hundred who aren't satisfied. It's a poll, not a census. It's a projection based on statistical models that have been very refined over the past 40+ years. It isn't exact. That's why you see a "margin of error," which means that if the poll were taken with the same sampling method 100 times, 95 of those times it would fall within the confidence interval. This study has a margin of error of +/- 3%, which means 95/100 times the results would be between 81% and 87%.
Me, I'm an 84%-er, and I think it is time, as has been said here, to cast off these differences and unite. Let's promote those things about our favorite candidate that we feel are good--as opposed to constantly bashing the candidate for whom we don't plan to vote--and discuss what could make them better. If you really wanna see how small the differences are between Clinton and Obama, let Mr. McCain remind you if you've forgotten about BushCo already. Or, you can go to the boards for the stories about the continuing Republican nightmares and see the much more unified, angry, and well-articulated arguments that are so prevalent.
Neither of the Democratic candidates are perfect -- no candidate ever is. Sure, we can't neglect to criticize when criticism is due, but I think from reading these boards in the past couple o' weeks, we've done plenty of that for the time being. Everyone knows the arguments against the candidates, but I think this poll helps dispel the myth of the anti-Hillary and anti-Obama Dems. So, why keep trying to make it the case? Why, from many peoples' points of view, would you want to be the MSM-influenced voter you want so badly NOT to be. Why make this a self-fulfilling prophecy?
As Obama says, we need unity -- and perhaps now more than ever.
Honestly, I don't wanna call anyone here--or anywhere--the "16%-ers."
Da Spyda @ 2:
Nice words and thought. We as dems have much work to do. Take nothing for granted. Desperation breeds rash and desperate measures by corrupt conservatives who want to hold onto to their taxpayer funded money spigot via their wars. C'mon... why else would chim-chim demand 190 billion for the "wars" this year? 80% of that probably goes to the republican fat-cats. Such bullshit is this war.
You cant win with just the democratic base though. Youre actually better off with someone that the base is satisfied with, but not crazy about. That kind of candidate would be more moderate and have the ability to get independent and moderate republicans while holding the base as well (Mark Warner comes to mind).
I know people argue that thats what Obama does, but I doubt that will hold up till November when he gets the scrutiny that will come if he's the nominee. If he was really a moderate democrat that would hold up, but he's not, he's "the most liberal senator in the senate" and people will eventually figure that out.
Its also important who the opponent is, and McCain has the potential to reach out too. Him being not as liked by his base could be a positive in the general election. Moderates and Indys may like the fact that the far-right doesnt like him. In fact Ive heard some people say that already. Hillary has problems too, but hers is more complicated; shes a moderate that people think is a liberal. I think thats an easier problem to solve though until the election 9 months from now. She has a problem with men though too and having baggage from the nineties that will be hard to change some voters minds about.
If I had to predict right now, against either democrat, I think McCain would win. It doesnt look like that now, but it never does. It didnt look like Bush would beat Gore or Kerry either. Hillary would have a better chance too, imo.
Where are the numbers for the GOP results? Bad connection, can't watch video.
When the Republicans win, I can't wait for the liberals to start saying that they cheated. It is going to be hilarious.
AshWilliams @ 45:
Here's the original piece:
http://www.newsweek.com/media/57/0801_fsum_FOR_POLL.pdf
Devil's Advocate @ 46:
Why would liberals blame themselves for cheating if they lose? Or at all for that matter?
What about being a victim of "No Child Left Behind" makes everything so hilarious?
EnderW @ 33:
I IGNORED the rest of your rant after you called everybody a
MORON....
Clinton/Lewinsky 08! Who's with me?
All I can say is anyone that votes for McCain will regret it. The United States is just barely surviving George Bush. McCain is just another George Bush and the country may not recover from another republican President.
What the neocons are scared of is if macain can win primary without the evangelicals, by appealing to independents and moderates. That scares the crap out of them because republicans have no idea on how to win on substance.
They need fear mongering and one issue voters to come out in mass and vote against their own economic interests to get elected so they can continue the war on the middle class.
Um, how is McCain different from a neocon? Neocons are focused on belligerent nationalism and spreading Chicago School economics under the guise of Democracy. McCain is 100% behind that agenda. McCain still gets an approval rating in the 80s from the majority of the Republican party. It's only the loud mouthed far right activists we're hearing from now. In a general election, they will hardly matter.
The Real Question is, if Barak Obama wins the majority of democratic delegates, whether or not Hillary Clinton is wise enough to back off for the sake of allowing her party to Win in November?
I hope she understands the stakes of further fighting will undermine the chances of the Democrats winning the presidency, let alone how the shakeup in congress may turn out if she and her compliant cronies (reid, pelosi, hoyer, emmanuel, etc) continues to resist the will of the people.
We will impeach both bush and cheney, mark my words.
This is so true. You can get a warped sense of things from just blogs...most people are ok with either of these two.
When it comes disunity (is that even a word?) in November, I really mostly worry about Obama supporters...from what I've seen in blogs and such about who threatens not to vote, but also just because Obama IS getting a lot of young voters...a lot of new voters...and basically a lot of people who are going "I'm interested in this guy. So I'm going to participate" as opposed to "I'm interested in this process/country/election/politics. So I'm going to participate." And when the guy they're interested leaves...so do they, because the rest of the process just doesn't do it for them. My theory. Even Obama expresses doubts about his supporters' reliability come November if he isn't around (while noting that Clintonites would probably vote for him). That's what happens when you pull in independents, I guess...on the one hand they're crucial and it's a big plus for Obama that he gets them...on the other hand they're irritating as hell sometimes, ha...
So glad my first election is shaping up to be so interesting/historical :) Anyone who isn't enjoying this...I feel for you...you're missing out!
James @ 11:
The American Conservative also endorsed Kerry in '04. No, seriously. The magazine was started by a bunch of old-school isolationist conservatives (e.g. Buchanan) around the start of the Iraq invasion. They've begin against the war from the start -- though I'd hardly call 'em peaceniks.
DaveM @ 52:
That's right the neo-cons can only survive on fear mongering. The number one tactic they will use is terrorism. "If you vote for the Dems you vote for terrorism." That is going to be their number one tactic. They are already starting to say that now.
Actually, if you vote for Republicans you vote for terrorism, because the first people the Republicans turn on is their own citizens. In the fight for terrorism they will take away our freedoms. Vote intelligently. Vote Democratic
To true conservatives, McCain is a carpetbagger Johnny Begging Lately who tossed them off or cozied up as needed. But not the real deal.
To Obama dems, chappaqua carpetbagger clinton is a whining loser.
"Introducing President Obama."
And again in 2012.
FreedomOfInformationAct @ 54:
You really think that Obama, after all his spiels on "bringing unity" and "reaching across the aisle" will do jack shit about holding Bush and Cheney for all the crimes they have committed?
To get accountability for those two criminals you need a fighter who will take 'em to task... not a smilin' schmooser
I most certainly do not love the candidates I had to choose between today. Clinton "business as usual" vs Obama "I'll figure it out as I go". I loved Kucinich's platform. I liked Edwards. I don't care at all for the remains we are stuck with.
Abolish the primary system. It sucks.
Those whiny Republicans. They think that McCain isn't fit to be Commander in Chief. Well, I got news for them. Their idol George W Bush was not fit to be Commander in Chief neither was their god, Ronald Reagan. It is impossible to make a Republican happy, unless you throw money at them and then their only happy for a short time.
Cats r Flyfishn @ 61:
sorry for the double post. Had to edit my typos.
Chip @ 57:
I think Americans are tired of being afraid and that is why Obama has such an appeal especially to young voters. I've had several young voters tell me that Obama is the only candidate that doesn't come with the Vietnam baggage.
They should ask REPUBLICAN STRATEGISTS that question.
It would be 100%.
Cats r Flyfishn @ 63:
Americans are ignorant, media-driven cattle.
Republicans are horribly fucked this year.
President Obama will be leading the nation one year from today for sure.
CowboyBob in Austin @ 24:
They are going to get really nasty this year. Like a wounded, dying, rabid-dog, the GOPer's will pull out all of the stops. They just are not going to work in 08'.
After 8 years of president shit-for-brains, and 6 years of republican congressional mismanagement along with him, the repukes have screwed the pooch for years to come. And no line of bullshit is going to save their sorry asses this time.
FOX News is already drooling at the divide of the Democrats! They anticipate the pissed off Democrats to either not vote or vote for a Republican!
Divide and Conquer!
Their mission is almost accomplished unless we TRUE DEMOCRATS STOP THEM IN THEIR CALCULATING TRACKS IMMEDIATELY!
READ #68
Pass it along!
I wasn't aware that Hillary and Obama were so very close. I got the impression that Obama had a notable lead. Either way, I think they're right: it's win/win for Democrats. I'm still betting on Obama though.
It's gonna be pretty tough for the Republican party after this though. They're really suffering from the sins of the past eight years. Perhaps after the utterly fail to win the next election there'll be a steady shift back to REAL conservatism once again.
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