Hardball: Was It Plagiarism Or Not?
By Logan Murphy Monday Feb 18, 2008 2:46pm
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Hillary Clinton adviser, Howard Wolfson, accused Barack Obama of outright plagiarism during a campaign conference call for using words from a speech previously given by his friend, Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick, during a speech Obama gave without giving him credit. This isn't the first time Obama and Deval have shared the same message. Obama admitted to using the governor's words and Patrick applauded him for using his lines.
Yesterday on Hardball, Chris Matthews talked with Pat Buchanan and Katrina Vanden Heuvel of The Nation about the accusations and the differences between the two were like night and day. Buchanan says that this was clearly plagiarism and that he believes this was a big mistake on Obama's part because Obama spent the day explaining himself, while Katrina claims that this was a stunt by the Clinton campaign and is just a distraction from real issues and bad for the Democratic Party and politics in general.
(Nicole:) Vanden Heuvel is right, this is much ado about nothing and a distraction from substantive issues. Obama had credited Patrick for the words before. Clinton's slide from the presumptive nomination has made the Wisconsin primary a make or break one for her--if she does not win, it will be nearly impossible to overtake Obama's momentum. Nevertheless, the Clinton campaign should be slammed for breaking the cardinal rule of politics: Thou Shalt Not Speak Ill Of Your Own Party. This is the kind of red meat that the media loves to chew on and just gives the GOP something to use against either one of them, should they win the nomination. Really not a smart move.
John Amato: By the way, watching Pat Buchanan say Drudge represents middle America is outrageous--- outrageous, I say! What will be interesting to see is if Hillary does win Wisconsin, then did this actually help her?
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What we are seeing with the Clinton campaign is a campaign in the "last throes" and she knows it.
Hence, the roundhouse swings at Obama, while it's coming to light that she plans to steal any superdelegate, whether committed to her or not, and discount our votes.
I didn't ask for that.
media/political hack manufactured issue number 13,235....
anything, ANYTHING, to distract the easily distractable from the real issues facing the country and the world.
next on the media/political hack report: does obama buy his clothes from outlet stores...
Later on Countdown, KO and his guest concluded it was a minor issue not worthy of much attention while at the same time over on The Flacktor, BOR had Rove on who came to the conclusion that it was "clearly plagiarism" indicating how horrible both of the Dem candidates are.
Guess it all depends on where you're sitting..
Who is this Drudge of which you speak Mr. Buchanan?
A mid-westerner
But...Hillary doesn't care about whether or not her stunts wreck what's left of the Democratic Party.
She figures if she gets the White House, she can put it all back together again, never realising that the Party is just like Humpty Dumpty - she could resurrect Ghandi and won't be able to put the party back together again if she continues with her "win at all costs" mantra.
Serves her right for having entitlement issues in the first place. She's blown over $100 million dollars and is now tapped out of high paying donors - what could we expect if she gets POTUS?
Not balancing the budget like Bill did, that's for sure.
The Billary spin continues, hopefully for not too much longer!
"Nevertheless, the Clinton campaign should be slammed for breaking the cardinal rule of politics: Thou Shalt Not Speak Ill Of Your Own Party."
First, we're talking about Democrats here so that rule was tossed out long ago. Second, there's a Clinton involved and if they don't win, they'll make sure no one else will win.
I'll give you a plaguerism
A Pox on Thee!!
its bad because it also opens Clinton up for similar comments.
when Jake Tapper, who has been not too kind to Obama, asked the Clinton camp if they could guarantee that they hadn't done the same at some point, they said they couldnt guarantee anything, but if it had been done that its 'no big deal'
please. i mean immediately people have pointed out she's pulled Carter's "I see an America where..." repetition, and has ESPECIALLY used segments of Bills' "invisible Americans" riffs. this line of attack poisons the entire Democrat well.
...but I'm sure before this thread is over there'll be some "LOL OBAMABOTS PHONEY JERK" type post. Give some people an inch, and they'll take it for the mile... even if its a load of crap.
Buchanan's judgment is obviously not reliable. Why keep him on the air?
Blue Lensman @ 3:
........and Rove should be sitting in a jail cell........
If Chris Matthews is reporting anything, Hillary is always the guilty one. He is so transparent and predictable!
Obama and Clinton are not in the same party.
Clinton is in the CORPORATIST PARTY.
We think Obama is a POPULIST.
We can I hope can't we?
Yes We Can !!
If Clinton points out anything Obama says or does, the media and "progressives" crap their pants. god forbid anyone mention he borrowed another's bumper stickers for a speech.
How dare them criticize He Who Cannot Be Criticized!
Ol' "Glass Houses" Clinton needs to stfu. It's just a desperate act by a desperate woman and a lousy fucking president who would pull a shitty stunt like that.
Obama has made his campaign message of hope resonate off of all of the negatives people feel about the Clintons. He has been very overt about his Clinton-bashing. Fair enough. But is that not speaking ill of your own party? What it is is campaigning in a tight election with a lot at stake. So you can bash Hillary and Bill all you want but don't pretend for one second that Obama has been anything other than a politician. He just happens to be a more talented one that Hillary. Big surprise there.
The world is ending thanks to the lying Repugs and they focus on THIS idiocy? Let's do a show on whether Bush lied. Oh, that's right, that's not the least bit important.
oy-between this ridiculous smear and the stage-managed "events" the Clinton campaign is taking a page from the Rove book-and doing it ineptly! I sure have lost a lot of respect for the Clintons as they get desperate...
"By the way, watching Pat Buchanan say Drudge represents middle America is outrageous— outrageous, I say!" -Logan Murphy
I have to say I agree. Having traveled extensively throughout the U.S. I believe that mean spirited lying assholes tend very much to be the exception rather than the rule.
"Much ado about nothing"
How's dat for Plagiarism. ;-)
Who Cares Clinton camp still sucks 8 years to get health care and nothing
The liberal pundits are acting as though there weren't unassailable evidence on video that Obama lifted parts of his speech from Patrick. This is embarassing to see the smart people on our team stoop to the level of the Repubs. and deny a fact that's staring them in the face. The real problem is that we're stuck with two lousy potential candidates because state after state voted as the corporate media manipulated them to vote. Edwards was the guy, but it's too late now.
Sen. Obama didn't just borrow a few words, it was wholesale plagiarism. In an academic setting, he could be expelled or placed on academic probation. That's how serious plagiarism is considered in academia. Sen. Clinton is engaged is a serious struggle for her party's nomination. Her campaign had every right to point out Sen. Obama's use of Gov. Patrick's speech.
Hillary looks more and more like a Republican everytime I look at her. A walking, bottomless sack of ambition in a human suit, who would do anything or assume any stance if it got her power.
Hmm...curious. Is it plagiarism to recite other people's speeches? Politicians do it all the time, do they not?
It's plagiarism when you represent someone else's work as your own - like when the Blair government's report on Hussein's Iraq cribbed from some professor's work.
In this matter, I see no claim of authorship form Obama. The whole speechlet was about using other people's words. So I see no issue.
The logical consequence of calling this "plagiarism" is that politicians must start or end their speeches by attributing them to their speechwriters. Does any politician give proper credit to his/her speechwriters?
Speeches would get pretty boring if they had to be footnoted.
Infotainment....Idiocracy....
Please...Spitball is crossfire for MSNBC
The only show worth your time is KO's Countdown...
I bet Hillary would like a total do-over with all new campaign people. It's these voices from her campaign that have caused her some trouble. Obama has taken the high road on all this trite foolishness and it must be driving her campaign people crazy. He just refuses to get down in the muddy political world.
To call foul over something like this, that could blow up in their faces is a chancy move at this time in the campaign. I think they should have drained this one around the brain sieve one more time before they let it become spoken words. Just the idea of making such an accusation can be seen as more determined to hurt the opponent than to win the race.
Keep digging Hillary....you haven't found anything yet.
Just another weak, pathetic and desparate attempt by the Clinton machine to derail the Obama express.
John,
going by your story below in regards the crossdressing jurist and the one that collects kiddy porn....drudge may indeed represent middle america
in regards the clintons....way to make what the wingnuts say about you come true
do anything to win...sick
It ain't plagiarism if Deval Patrick A) agreed that he could use it (which he did) and was credited, which he was.
If you want to see plagiarising, how about Hillary ripping off Bush and Cheney for her Iraq War Resolution Speech in 2002? Or her stealing "Stand for Change," Or "Yes, We Can"?
Hillary's whole campaign has basically been projecting, and I will be happy if she's handed her own rear end on a plate in Wisconsin, Hawaii and hopefully Texas as well.
Obama's message is reaching all these people who want bigger, better things but have been afraid to speak up when they see the state of the country. Now they're coming out in droves.
Change is in the air! Obama '08!
How is it plaigirism when Obama and Patrick use the SAME speechwriter????
raker @ 23:
Most of the parts of the speech were quotes by famous Americans. The phrase " just words" was the only thing he took away from Patrick's speech. If you watched Joe Scarborough (R) this morning he said all political speakers have at one time or another used phrases or parts of other politician's speeches.
pissed off patricia @ 29:
I think you hit the nail right on the head. Hillary is trying so hard to claim to be the experienced politician standing for change, and yet her entire campaign is made up of the has-beens and political hacks that already got the boot at least once. It would be like everyone from the Bush regime suddenly jumping on McCain's good ol' Maverick Express and trying to install the same rhetoric, same one-liners, same campaign ideas. It doesn't work. It isn't working for Hillary either.
Houston @ 24:
and they say that the obama supporters are cult like
clinton supporters see hillary as infallible
you guys are myopic
Regrettable, but not surprising, that Hillary would provide cheap ammo for McCain in the GE. He is going to run as the "straight talker" and Hillary is busy painting our probable candidate as just the opposite. Thanks a lot, Hils.
For those of you - especially fence-sitters - interested in what the choice of Obama or Clinton will actually mean for the future of our country, check out this level-headed analysis of how both candidates would help Democrats win (or not) Senate seats:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2008/2/18/162110/218
It's the real deal, not campaign shenanigans, and shows just how important your support could be to helping us turn this country around.
This really does sound like the kind of attack Rove would make. One of Obama's biggest weapons or gifts is his speaking ability and his words, so what would Rove do? He would attack his speaking ability and try to drown out and weaken his words. Is Rove working for Hillary in the background?
Someone on tv made an excellent point about the two campaigns. Look which campaign has done the best with their organization and finances. Wouldn't you want a person for president who could put together a successfully run organization like that?
Hillary thought she was only going to have to really campaign for a few months and then they could coast the rest ot the way. They blew all their money and then found out they hadn't won the game.
Obama knew he had a tough time ahead of him all the way so he and his campaign planned things accordingly.
Houston @ 24:
You're wrong. I was on the debate team in college. If one of us came up with a good response to a question or comment, rest assured the rest of the team will be using it by the end of the weekend.
Now, if Obama copied someone's term paper and turned that it in, well... it's plagiarism. You're muddying the issue a bit.
You're correct that Clinton had every right to point that out, but to call is plagiarism is a bit of stretch, especially when Patrick said that Obama could use parts of his speech. Clinton's camp is grasping for straws. If this is the best that they can do, they're really weak.
It's funny how the Republicans cry about plagiarism... that bunch hadn't had an original thought in over 40 years.
You have to be deaf and blind not to see/hear Obama is clearly plagiarizing. One look at the video and you see how damning it is.
You guys are making excuses for Obama. Anyone else and you'd be the first to throw the meat cleaver at them.
"Ghostwriter controversy
Clinton has been criticized for not giving credit to a ghostwriter in connection with It Takes a Village. The majority of the book was reportedly written by ghostwriter Barbara Feinman.[8] When the book was first announced in April 1995, The New York Times reported publisher Simon & Schuster as saying "The book will actually be written by Barbara Feinman, a journalism professor at Georgetown University in Washington. Ms. Feinman will conduct a series of interviews with Mrs. Clinton, who will help edit the resulting text."....
Feinman spent seven months on the project and was paid $120,000 for her work.[10] Feinman, however, was not mentioned anywhere in the book.....
....During her promotional tour for the book, Clinton said, "I actually wrote the book ... I had to write my own book because I want to stand by every word...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village
so, if one uses biblical phrases, is that plagiarizing?
no more than using the words of kennedy, lincoln, king, et al...
...
and, from what i'm hearing, from AAR callers and news reports, if hillary does win in wisconsin, it won't necessarily be because of democratic voters... there's a big push on winger radio there to get repugs to vote for her since the repug nominee is already chosen...
On a lighter note:
This just in! Teenagers are impressionable!
Nicole -
Re "Obama had credited Patrick for the words before." When?
BREAKING NEWS: Mark Penn claims Obama's iPod is 70% illegally downloaded mp3s.
is this really the man we want running our country?
HILLARY 08!
If Obama is guilty of plagiarism, any joke repeated at a party, or proverb expressed, or simple story told by any of us is plagiarism. What a pathetic reach.
Obama lifted some of a speech from somebody else? Who the fuck cares? Geez, what a non-issue.
Here goes Nicole again... uggh.
So we should "slam" Hillary for not following the Republicans 11th amendment, but we should'nt do the same when Obama has said nasty shit about Hillary?
FTW is wrong around here?
Nicole continues to have some really odd, and illogical arguments.
The Political Junkie @ 1:
I heard a report last night regarding the superdelegates -- and that Obama has donated 3X as much $$ to the campaigns of these people as has Clinton.
Sorry folks but anybody who uses words to convey a message is in fact an unwitting propagator (asexually, of course) of plagiary. Cheap shot Clinton.
This is absolutely ridiculous. We have no news to report so let's make some up! Buchanan you are a old, white fart. Hillary HAS TAKEN LINES FROM EVERYONE and journalists are now looking at everything Hillary has said, this will back fire on her, just wait.
"Drudge is middle America" C'mon Buchanan. Just because "10 million people go on there" doesn't make it middle anything. Hell more people are on C&L in a given hour than on Drudge all day long.
"uh well, I think Hillary is in her last throes, if you will...."
this is much ado about nothing and a distraction from substantive issues
Oh my.
If Hillary had been the one accused of swiping, C&L would be screaming that it was indicative of her lack of character. But it's Inevitable Obama, so nevermindnothingtoseeherelalalala.
(This is hardly Obama's first snatch-job; one day after Clinton released her plans for economic stimulus, Obama's camp released theirs--same thing, details changed. Let's talk leadership.)
Rules of Engagement on Frontline tonight.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/
Rules of Engagement
The inside story of what happened in Haditha, Iraq, where 24 Iraqis were killed by U.S. forces. Many in the media branded it “Iraq’s My Lai.”
I have audio taped numerous soldiers who have come back from Iraq. Many say that there has been a great deal of indiscriminate killing in Iraq by U.S. soldiers that they do not want to talk about and Americans do not want to hear about.
Volum @ 48:
Fort Worth is wrong around here?
You'll get no argument from the people in Dallas.
Here’s the HILLARY ‘Plagiarism’ That’s Really Troubling
Happenstance @ 52:
Obama did a snatch job on Hillary?
This topic has been done to death. It's obvious the Clinton's are desperate and have lost on the issues. Lets hope the voters see thru yet another one of these Clinton/Rove tactics.
Volum @ 48:
"Nasty shit????"
Oh yeah, Obama has really been taking cheap shots and slinging mud. You are a complete moron.
Hillary is hanging by a thread and is trying to nail Obama with anything...no matter how small the offense. Obama has taken the high road....and it's driving the Clintons crazy that it's actually working.
How dare Obama not practice politics are usual.
who wrote "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
wasn't kennedy
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/10/books/10kenn.html?scp=7&sq=ask+not+wha...
this is such a lunatic issue, it's sad and pathetic.
after reading that the clintons are perpetuating this plagarism story for a second day, i've decided that i will not support her in the general, even if she wins the election.
if she overturns the popular vote and pledged delegates (if there is a definitive margin for obama), then not only will i not vote for her, i'll campaign for mccain. (out of spite...in fact i think he's worse than bush, and bush has been the worst in history)
i have a hunch, however, that her strategy will have worked today in WI....obama got pulled into a nonsense story, and just commenting on the issue mucked him up a bit...
jimijazz @ 57:
Actually they pretty much talk about the same issues with the same solutions, but with only style differing.
I generally hate these fights, but...
Hillary plagiarizes Bill:
Hillary knows she can't win. The Prom Queen and King are pissed.
1. She's going to drag this out to the convention, fracturing the party and doing the Republican's dirty work by tearing down Obama.
2. Doing what she can to make sure that Obama does not win next fall.
3. Start the Hillary '12 campaign. (with that pesky Obama out of the way!)
Just watch....
59 lopaloo102
Take a look at the story of the SCOTUS turning down the Telecom cases.
Happenstance @ 52:
She's already used several of his stock speech phrases and no accusations came from the Obama camp as a result. Even McCain used one. Still no accusations from the Obama camp.
Happenstance @ 52:
Yea and I am sure that Hillary's camp came up with theirs all by themselves, right. Everybody Copy and steals from everybody else.
The Truth Hurts @ 58:
I'm guessing that Volum feels we should smack people around if they seem vicious and mean-spirited.
Hillary needs to dump this Wolfson clown. He's doing her more harm than good. I've been generally leaning in her direction, but keeping a guy like him on the payroll makes me wonder a little about her judgment.
This is what happens when your campaign retreads are running out of ideas. You phone up the media and get some assistance. Sad.
This is definitely a bullshit issue.
If you actually read the friggin article in the news, it's clear Obama and Patrick actually talked the night before about Obama using Patrick's ideas.
And the people to bring up this issue were from Clinton's campaign? How come it's usually her campaign resorting to tactics like these? It's turning me away from voting for her more and more.
Rusty Shackleford @ 67:
Keep wondering
It seems that anytime the anointed one is called on anything his far left elitist supporters claim as Katrina does "this was a stunt by the Clinton campaign and is just a distraction from real issues and bad for the Democratic Party." Give us a break! There are plenty of Dems like myself who support Hillary Clinton because she is the most capable and ready for this daunting job and believe that without his inflated rhetoric Mr. Obama is all talk and no substance. When called out on it, he actually did use a long piece of the Governor's speech, and admitted that he did, the onslaught of defensive BS from the elitist media begins. We want some straight answers. When will Katrina and Chris ask this candidate some real hard questions on the real issues, ask him to explain his policies without sending everyone over to his website. Puleeeze!
Buchanan wants Hillary as the Dem nominee so bad he pitches her with gusto. I realize all sides should be represented in the format but his turncoating is so transparent his slip, panties and garter are showing.
This actually shoudl push more people to Obama. If Clinton was really going to sling mud, then why do it with such a stupid story and one that can be easily explained away? It makes her look even more desperate, because Obama can just come out and say "Hey we're friends and we talked about me using his words" For crying out loud, Patrick himself came out today and said it was ok. It is not Plagarism if the other party doesn't care.
ysbaddaden @ 63:
i understand, but this authorship is such a bizarre and phony story, i will just tune out to a political contest between the likes of clinton and mccain.....
if it is reasonable to say that obama plagiarized, then it is also reasonable to say that the democrats want to surrender to terrorists.....I think both assertions are absurd and dishonest.
i'm not gonna watch that shit fight in november...
You can easily tell who NOT to vote for, simply by not voting for the person who is squirming and desperate. = Hillary.
End of story?
Count Diebold in.
Bill and Hillary fired up that car that brought them to DC in 1992. Back then it ran great and they cruised right up to the white house. Today the car is much older and doesn't have the power the newer cars have. It just chugs along in fits and starts. It isn't racing along and passing all the other cars the way it used to. Now they are worried it's going to die on them. Damn, they say, why didn't we get a new car for this long haul of a race?
rreddy @ 70:
That's interesting that you ask for specifics from Obama supporters but offer none yourself. Besides being "most capable and ready for this daunting job"
If you think Clinton and Obama are the same, go back to the first 90 days of the Clinton presidency, The attorney general fiasco(Zoe Baird), the civil rights fiasco(Lani Guinier),Waco(David Koresh) and Somalia(18 U.S. soldiers killed, evetnually the U.S. pulls out). The Clinton camp would rather have you not focus how badly these events werehandled and some cases, outright disasters. We've lived thru the Clintons and we certainly don't want anymore of that. Experience and competance? Gimme a break! No way.
The Truth Hurts @ 58:
You guys...really!
I'm on the fence between the two candidates at this point. Hillary and Barack seem like two peas from the same pod, just that one has a better handle of the issues and the other seems to offer a needed change in politics and
governance. If we get a do over in MI I'll vote for the one who makes the best guarantees for MI under their presidencies.But to see people who are so obviously partisan, as the two of you seem, dragging Nicole over the coals for what is a very neutral overview and perspective, is really turning a lot of us off. Please stop it.
As an educator, I find it offensive to NOT label and understand plagiarism.
THIS WAS PLAGIARISM! Students are expelled from colleges, universities and militray academies for violations even lesser than Obama's. He is a lawyer and runinng for president and says this is no big deal....That is a HUGE mistake! Wake Up everyone...Obama is not the Messiah! Now, even Michelle O is making a fool of herself!
ysbaddaden @ 54:
Damn right.
jimijazz @ 77:
Well said. Not to mention how Bill lost the congress, not much of a "uniter" then was he?
[Sorry about that, O/E '08. Your comments are getting sidetracked to the spam filter. Don't know why, but I've got an eye on it. Please remain calm. :D Site Monitor]
rreddy @ 70:
"There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America". It's the famous line from Bill Clinton's 1993 inauguration address AND it's also from a 2006 speech Hillary Clinton gave to an Hispanic audience
skitob @ 79:
is it plagiarism when these politicians don't acknowledge their speechwriters?
what about the state of the union speech? bush is plagiarizing his team of writers by not acknowledging who wrote each sentence? i don't see the distinction.
It seems to be that the biggest quantifiable difference between HRC and Obama is found in how successful their campaigns have been. One has been steadily improving and continues to do so while the other is grinding to a halt.
skitob @ 79:
Wiki- "Generally, although plagiarism is often loosely referred to as theft or stealing, it has not been set as a criminal matter in the courts.[6] Likewise, plagiarism has no standing as a criminal offense in the common law. Instead, claims of plagiarism are a civil law matter, which an aggrieved person can resolve by launching a lawsuit."
Civil matter. Since there is no aggrieved person in this case, Patrick has publicly stated he allowed Barack to use his words, then there is no case here. You can't compare Obama speaking to a student trying to get a better grade by passing off someone else's work.
lopaloo102 @ 84:
I don't either, and I still don't see what this has to do with being the Prez candidate for the Dems. Is it saying Obama is dishonest? Coming from Hillary? Hahahahahahaha.
skitob @ 80:
Few of us college students get to CALL up the author and ask if we can use his ideas, like Obama did.
Seriously, what is up with all the people going crazy on this issue? Like the Clinton supporters finally have a (supposed) bone thrown to them and can't let go? I don't know who I'm going to vote for but Jesus...
The distinction, especially in this case, is that O's words were close to identical to Patrick's speech...it's in the video! Either you give proper reference or you are stealing! It's a violation that is listed in most every High School and College Code of Conduct.
When Hillary didn't like the way David Schuster characterized her campaign's use of daughter Chelsea, she demanded that he be fired - just like Bush would have done. When Obama's rhetoric became his outstanding strength, Hillary attacked his strength with the plagiarism charge - just like Bush would have done. Makes you wonder who is Karl Rove advising these days.
To Obama/Edwards '08 - Yes. Thats the topper. Losing the Congress for the democrats. Also worth mentioning were the White House firings by Hillary Clinton and the health care debacle Bill left her in charge with. The Clintons were so divisive nobody would want to go thru that again.
skitob @ 89:
I didn't realize Obama was turning in his speeches for credit.
It's only Plagiarism if you don't have permission from the source, which he did, troll.
skitob @ 89:
And he asked Patrick for permission. Done and done. He isn't getting graded for a college essay.
uhm since the author specifically authorized Obama to use his words and, plagarism: pla·gia·rism /ˈpleɪdʒəˌrɪzəm, -dʒiəˌrɪz-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pley-juh-riz-uhm, -jee-uh-riz-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.. .
NOTE: UNAUTHORIZED,
by definition, Obama's use of the speech is NOT plagarism.
This has been another edition of simple answers to stupid questions.
It is really not funny! Here's a guy who is supposedly the 'change for the better candidate' and he is not following common fair use information. After all, Patrick did not even know O used his speech until it was plastered all over the media. I believe that Harvard follows this plagiarism violation in it's Code of Conduct. I guess O did not read it.
jimijazz @ 91:
Yes my point exactly, well...yours actually, but a good one that no one seems to remember. The Clintons were all about them, they didn't give a hoot about the party in the 90's it was all about them, so when Bill gets caught lying and impeached, no wonder no one came to his rescue. This is exactly the reason washington veterans, including superdelegates, are going to vote for Obama. They want someone who they can work with. Hillary is too much like Bush, she thinks she knows what is best and will trample over anyone to do it. Not Obama, he will listen to everyone and formulate a plan from everyone's input.
I can't deal with 4 or 8 more years of Bush-like close mindedness. No way.
Obama/Edwards '08 @ 92:
Hillary has directly lifted Bill's "theres nothing wrong with america that cant be fixed by whats right with america" riffs. Would a Hillary supporter desperate to 'gotcha' on Obama retroactively damn her for this...
...or is it only something to get worked up over when its not them doing it?
whats lost in this whole thing is that the Hillary campaign can only attack the origin of the quote, and can't respond to the quote itself.
skitob @ 96:
AGAIN OBAMA IS NOT A STUDENT AT HARVARD.
See comments above from concerned canuck and getaclue
BYE BYE TROLL
This is just a preview of what is going to happen when Hillary is nominated. It is expected from republicans, but not from progressives and democrats. I am amazed. She attempted to fix the health care system in 93 and the insurance co. spent a ton of money on PR ads to stop it and it worked Then everyone said she wasn't elected and had no right to do anything. Now she is trying to get elected so she can fix our problems and this is how she is treated. What has she ever done to get treated like this???. She is a good wife and mother and First Lady, Senator. And has only worked for the good of the people. Obama was asking her for advise just 2 years ago when he came to the senate. He has been taking her ideas and rewording them for months. And of course, her campaign is not supposed to say anything.
When you wake up from your media-induced trance after the election in November ..It might surprise you how happy a day it will be. A break from the soundbite wars.
For those of you who remain Hillary supporters:
Soon, the political/media spin on President Obama will be in direct opposition to the public's affection for him...just like the Clinton years, if you are nostalgic for that.
This is your chance to actually stand up for intense public involvement in politics. You never needed royalty to sweep in like a fairy tale (not the one that Bill alluded to).
What you needed was Obama or someone like him and a movement...you.
skitob @ 96:
Um...you are in the education system, yet you can't read? Obama already got permission. What part of that can't you understand? And you claim to be an educator? What jobs do your former students get?
I agree with everything but Hillary broke the cardinal rule of her own party. If that rule was used universally the comment wouldn't seem like such a joke to me.
Jason B @ 32:
And this Wisconsin resident has just done his part to ensure that. :)
This Wisconsin primary could very well become a referendum on smear politics. If Hillary wins, you can bet we're see much more of these last-minute attacks down the road.
tricia @ 100:
it wasnt just the PR ads that stopped her... her plan was done behind closed doors and didn't work with people, and it turned a lot of people off. and when it did fail, she kept her mouth shut about it and didn't try again. if she couldnt make things work before, how is anyone supposed to believe it will work this time? how are we supposed to believe her divisiveness will cost us seats in the house and senate we need to pass it? how are we supposed to accept a policy failure as 'experience'?
and above all, how is she going to take care of the people who can't pay for her mandated health care plan? I'd prefer a single payer plan which neither candidate is really offering... however if we're looking at 'realistic' health care plans, Obama's way to 'opt out' is going to be a lot easier to sell to the American people. I believe his plan can pass the house and senate. i don't believe hers can.
Sorry, but O got permission AFTER the fact, and only because he got caught. He was lucky he knew Patrick and was a friend. You can call me troll or whatever, but I am correct and you are rooting for a guy who is as similar as Bush/Cheney when it comes to the law. Just like Bush...voted in Twice by ignorant Americans because he seemed like a nice guy to have a beer with...Well good luck with Obama. He's got nothing going for him other than speaking...and now stealing his words. Wait until the GOP slime machine gets him and Michelle! Now that will be good TV!
if Hillary is nominated, 2/3 of the registered democrats will stay home election night, myself included.
I'm sick of the neocons and their stupid, anti-human policies and Hillary is a devout Bushie. She voted for the Iraq war; she voted to authorize war with Iran, parse it anyway you like; she voted for the Bankruptcy act; she didn't even bother to show up to vote on what is currently the biggest legislative travesty facing us; the so-called telecom immunity bill. Hillary is a follower who blows whichever way the wind blows. She will bow to her corporate masters after promising all of us to be a good progressive.
She represents everything that has poisoned the democratic well over the last 30 years; she IS the personal embodiment of the DNC; a group of corporate owned hucksters who have conspired (apparently successfully) to push true liberal progressives out of the party or to marginalize them to the point where you can't tell a modern-day democrat from a goldwater conservative.
No, friends, I will cast NO vote if Hillary Clinton is the nominee. Her embrace of right wing policies AND politics, demonstrated most recently with this phony "plagarism" ploy, is a complete turnoff.
I am sick and tired of holding my nose and casting a vote for a loser.
Done with it. Run someone who can win the election and I'll vote for them. I had high hopes for Edwards/Kucinich, the only two candidates who openly espoused and support anything approximating a progressive agenda.
Is it true that some repubs in Wisconsin are jumping out of their party and voting for Clinton because they feel she would be easier for McCain to beat in Nov.?
The "he only got permission after the fact" meme is bullshit. Cite any support for it and I'll shut up about it. But even assuming arguendo that it's true, it still makes his use of the material AUTHORIZED and therefore, NOT PLAGARISM.
So put that in your bong and smoke it TROLL
tricia @ 100:
OMG cry me a river.......nice "good wife" reference. Wait is this Bill writing this? "What has she ever done to get treated like this?" Your kidding right? Please tell me this is your way of finding amusement in the middle of your work day, please. So by your logic, Obama is a bad husband, faterh and public servant?
Just one example of how she can not be trusted. Do your homework.
Pat is such an ignorant moron. It's been reported for days that Deval and Barack coordinate their speeches and that Deval told Barack to use those lines. Why do people ignore that? Dumbasses!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbHiw2jlwa4
Bill Clinton in 1992, discounting the 'experience trumps vision' argument
"The same old experience is not relevant. You can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience... and will bring real results if we have the courage to change"
Getaclue - you can try to defend...but as a lawyer, Senator and aspiring president.. Obama screwed up. Face it.
I whole heatedly support Obama, but I will vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination. No way in hell will I sit back and allow the next president of the United States to be John McCain just because I felt like throwing a snit fit against my party. Anyone who sits home and doesn't vote for the democratic nominee has no right to bitch and moan if we get McCain and four more years of military hell for our country.
skitob @ 107:
What I don't get is that I'm the only one who seems to see that Obama's campaign has pagiarized Bob the Builder:
Can we build it?
Yes We Can!
LOL.
Stubborn stupidity such as yours is why some people in this country still think the Earth is flat.
Happenstance @ 52:
holy cripe...how many times has c&l pointed out the spurious attacks against the clintons?
give it up
her campaign is dead
queen hillary will never be crowned
skitob @ 107:
Do your homework. Bush wasn't voted into office by anyone. It was the supreme court in 2000 and spoiled votes in 2004.
You lost your argument, so now you are trying to change it around. Nice. You get an A in Troll 101. He was not "lucky he new Patrick" He knows Patrick and therefore used his words, not the other way around.
Sheesh, I love people who continue arguing a point after it has been settled.
Legally, it's not plagarism if you have the author's permission.
PERIOD.
Stop arguing the point skitob, it makes you look like an idiot.
I used to think it was mostly the 'pukes who were mean-spirited, blow-hard, and willfully ignorant or dilusional while spewing bullshit but I see dems have a high percentage of those type of folks too. What a f-ing let-down.
Andy K @ 116:
ROFLMAO Damn, I don't know how I missed it. I watch that show every morning with my son. YES WE CAN!
I heard today that Obama and Patrick have been friends for 15 years. How do we know that Obama didn't suggest those lines for Patrick some years ago? I mean, that's how weak and silly this whole dust up truly is.
pissed off patricia @ 115:
IAWTC... the time has come to realize that the Supreme Court Roe vs. Wade count hangs in the balance, and another 4 - 8 years, especially if its McCain who is serious about his pro choice stance and not just pandering... is a major threat. Dems who stay home because of personality conflict with Barack or Hillary, are to me really voting for or against womens rights.
Don't get me wrong, I have been very angry at Hillary's camp at many parts of this campaign, I've even resorted to words like "hillbots" which I now regret. If I'm going to support Obama I should at least rise to a higher level in discourse and encourage others to drop that line of discourse, stop talking like Rush Limbaugh, and air our grievances in a more civil manner. I try to skip all messages that use terms like "hitlery", "obamorons", etc. - dont even reply to people like that, they'll only bring you down to their level.
btw, anyone who doesnt have at least some sense of humor about their own candidate's quirks...
these are the people who will be sitting at home having snit fits in November. this is a serious election, but its not worth becoming a miserable person over.
This is nuts:
Enough!
It is common knowledge that all but a tiny percent of political speeches are not written by the politicians giving them. Has anyone critical of Obama here, or that is calling this plagiarism seen a political candidate read the credits for the speech while at the podium.
Have you seen Hillary Clinton announce who wrote any of her speeches while giving them.
The reason that the criticism of Biden was justified is because he defrauded the audience into believing that he was relaying a story and thoughts that actually happened to him. He said something along the lines of: I was on my way over to (fill in the blank) when it occurred to me.... and I started to think... (I'm sure I butchered the quote.) at which point he gave the British politicians speech almost word for word. It was the misrepresentation that was both dishonest and a breach of ethics.
There is a huge difference.
Peace
JK
Obama/Edwards '08 @ 122:
Two kids that I have hung out with a lot in the last few years got through that phase a couple of years ago, but that slogan stuck in my head.
Yes We Can! Must strike some deep psychological chords with us...but it's kinda disconcertin' when you realize that a kids show that sells toys that repeat that phrase to 3 year olds, and how it now resonates from a Presidential campaign...weird!
Drudge, a self-loathing closeted homosexual with a reich-wing agenda, represents middle-America? huh?
Let's just agree that Patrick and Obama both believe that quotes of great Ameicans are not "just words".
Who doesn't agree with them?
Blue Lensman @ 3:
Enough!
It is common knowledge that only a tiny percent of political speeches are written by the politicians giving them. Has anyone critical of Obama here, or that is calling this plagiarism seen a political candidate read the credits for the speech while at the podium.
Have you seen Hillary Clinton announce who wrote any of her speeches while giving them.
The reason that the criticism of Biden was justified is because he defrauded the audience into believing that he was relaying a story and thoughts that actually happened to him. He said something along the lines of: I was on my way over to (fill in the blank) when it occurred to me…. and I started to think… (I’m sure I butchered the quote.) at which point he gave the British politicians speech almost word for word. It was the misrepresentation that was both dishonest and a breach of ethics.
There is a huge difference.
Peace
JK
Andy K @ 127:
If Barack is the Bob the Builder "YES WE CAN!" candidate, Hillary is the Spongebob "I'M READY! I'M READY! I'M READY! I'M READY!" candidate
As Craig Crawford asks "yes we can WHAT?" Hope it's not too late to get the answers. We may regret not asking more questions.
JK @ 130:
With respect, my comment was #3 here so I don't think I was exactly harping. My main point was how this is being presented by the pundits. The technical definition of plagiarism is really not of much interest (to most of us!) under the circumstances.
One of the letters on the Cafferty file today stated that they no longer support Obama because they found out he isn't using his own words. People are stupid.
Does anyone know who it was that first used the phrase "Change"? Whoever it was, they ALL used it after. Was that plagiarism? Hillary is using Rove tactics. No change there.
I have an abiding beleif that anyone who authorizes war using a political calculus doesn't deserve to be president. I say, it is still the war, stupid.
With that said, I beliieve the Clintons will tear the party apart to get what they want... more power. She used a Republican play to sully someone in her own party. Attack your opponent's strengths. The only one who has been doing the attacking is Hillary clinton. Largely, Obama has been responding to this nit picking gotcha political games. The clintons are more of the same. It's unbelievable how many people can support a known WARMONGER. Some people don't learn. Some people didn't learn from the past 7 years. Some people don't care about what kind of means the Clintons will go to, to secure the nomination but I do. I've said it before and I will say it again. And many echo my sentiment. A female president was a good choice but not this one.
Obama is the only one who can secure my support and my vote. I will not vote for Clinton. If she wins the nomination and she runs against McCain then great but just like others, I don't see them as anything but the same. They are both WARMONGERS. They are both Establishment. It doesn't matter which one wins.
OBAMA: CHANGE: PRESIDENTIAL: INSPIRATIONAL: LEADERSHIP: A FANTASTIC SPEAKER. He is what we need for the next 8 years.
Janet @ 134:
I agree, but sadly i think this sort of last minute kneecapping will work.....
That's why I will no longer support a Clinton nomination however she wins it. With this trick, she lost my vote in November, if she gets there.
This is dirty dishonest disgraceful politics-- but, hey it might work for her.
rreddy @ 132:
Answer: Change. "Yes We Can Change America for the better."
Want to know how? barack obama.com
We're now asking a Holocaust denier and unReconstructed Confederate apologist to comment on a question of ethics? Seriously?
Katrina there got it right: this is not an issue. Making it one IS an issue.
The only people playing up the PLAGIARISM angle are the ones who are looking for something negative to drape around him. Two words, "Just Words". Hillary did it. McCain did it. To Obama. You people have a lot o nerve. You fell for it, hook line and sinker. Clinton used the media and got you! I know what she is. She's what I thought she was. A simple minded Politician. She's desperate.
Obama is the only candidate with good common sense amoung all of the candidates.
She is a warmongerring career politician crafted by established means.
I hope Obama runs the table on this candidate. Imagine something being wrong with HOPE. She is a negative politician and I will leave that one behind.
I only see Obama as the president. She kneecap anyone she wants but she'll not get my vote.
"...the cardinal rule of politics: Thou Shalt Not Speak Ill Of Your Own Party."
Sorry, Nicole, but that's a whitewashed version of the real thing, which is Ronald Reagan's so-called 11th Commandment: "Thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican."
It's only useful to a) those who are under attack, or who think they will be, or b) those who can speak ill of someone with a smile, a nod, and a one-liner, as Reagan could.
Reagan fits both categories, so for him it was a highly useful rule. It was originated by state party chairman Gaylord Parkinson during the 66 primary due to the heavy attacks against Reagan, and served Reagan well for years thereafter.
Of course that New Hampshire debate headlined "Obama and Edwards tag-team Clinton" by ABC News had nothing to do with anyone speaking ill of anyone, so thank heavens this is the first time we've seen that in this campaign.
I don't know if it's plagiarism or not, but it bothers me to find that someone whose strong suit is supposed to be inspiring people is trading motivational phrases with another politician like they were baseball cards or something. A few commentators have noted that Obama sometimes seems to get lost in listening to his own words, and they think it an endearing trait. It disturbs me, though, especially when put in the context of his slogan-swapping with Deval Patrick.
WarMongers don't get my vote.
McCain started accusing Obama of plagiarism seven days ago. On another issue. Edwards has accused Obama of plagiarism earlier in the campaign. Three strikes, you're out.
You can't defend yourself against charged of being a style not substance kinda guy when you crib your message from someone else.
So Deval Patrick did Obama's homework for him. Because Barack asked him.
Why can't Barack do his own homework? Why is he lifting stuff from Clinton and Edwards, too?
Makes him look weak.
RAWR
Gawd you people are SO gullible! You will seize on any non issue and run with it!
No wonder Brittany and Ana Marie news is so popular with Americans.
You are all easily led children...eager to fight over non-issues such as politicians using words written by other people to convey their meaningless rhetoric.
Only Americans are gullible enough to argue about what it all means...
No wonder your last three national elections were stolen out from under you.
It's like watching an episode of "Attack of the Pinheads"
Sadly, while you tear each other apart over trivia, you will get the authoritarian government you so richly deserve...
No Blood for Hubris @ 143:
Are you telling me Clinton never cribbed from Edwards? Never cribbed from Bill?
HELLO! "Invisible Americans" speech? Bill's baby, Hillary used it and didn't cite.
I didn't care when she did it, and I don't care that Barack's done it.
...at least no blood was spilled to acquire your hubris.
what is really astounding is that the whole right wing media of celebrity talking and writing heads and the whole republican gang of politicians and operatives depends on repetition of talking points, ideas, and framing.
most of them, like Tweety, are nothing but ticks on limbaugh's ass
Hillary Clinton Invisible Americans speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFRZuTVfaig
Bill Clinton Invisible Americans speech: read from http://mnpublius.com/2007/11/orgins-of-invisible-americans/
more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/19/plagiarism-clinton-bor_n_87361....
are we going to go back in time and make a non-issue out of that too? think before you squawk about this being some make or break deal.
noobsonparade @ 144:
Anna Nicole,[Deleted. Pleases keep it civil. Site Monitor], not "Ana Marie."
thats because most people in the US don't think critically about what is being said; are easily fired up with empty inflammatory rhetoric; eagerly seize mere rumors and rely on them as bases for making important decisions; and most of all, are easily brainwashed by constant repetition.
Every minute you spend watching cable pays these people's salaries. Think about it.
Throw enough canards at the wall, one of them is bound to stick!
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