He neglected to mention Alberto Gonzales in that group.

Well, I will give Sullivan credit. It is a start. My list of war criminals is much, much longer though.

Let's add Nancy Pelosi for aiding and abetting...

The whole U.S. Middle Eastern policy is certainly immoral, and in Central Asia, we are engaged in war crimes in Afghanistan, and in Iraq we are engaged in a genocide on a scale not seen in American history since the 19th Century. Hang the lot of them, (after a fair trial, of course) I say!

I talked to my Christian friend who asked "Why shouldn't the US torture an enemy of the state?"

I said, one word, "Jesus"!

He said nothing more.

Where were you when Mr. Bush was cheating his way into the White House, Mr. Sullivan? How convenient for you to be spouting off now. I find this little man disgraceful even if what he is saying (now) is true.

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 9:

I talked to my Christian friend who asked "Why shouldn't the US torture an enemy of the state?"

I said, one word, "Jesus"!

He said nothing more.

Amen

sdfilter @ 12:

General_Rennenkampf @ 7:

Hang the lot of them, (after a fair trial, of course) I say!

As much as I understand this impulse, why don't we start moving our thinking toward a more civilized view? How about "jail them for life without parole, after a fair trial?

Death is a release...an ending of suffering....I want these monsters kept alive (even going as far as unnatural means) as long as possible so that their egos can scream in pain for being locked in cold cells, as far from free air and sunlight as possible. They don't deserve Death's grace!

Sullivan is completely right when he says they deserve to be indicted for war crimes. He's delusional when he says they will be. Who would be doing the indicting? There is nobody in Bush's administration who has either the values or the moral courage to do that, and there is virtually no sentiment either in Congress or in the mainstream media to push the issue, either.

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 9:

I talked to my Christian friend who asked "Why shouldn't the US torture an enemy of the state?"

I said, one word, "Jesus"!

He said nothing more.

Isn't it ironic? How supposed Christians that claim to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ have themselves turned into the very thing that Christ stood up against. They have knowingly or unknowingly turned into their very own version of Pontius Pilate and just like Pilate they approvingly support the actions of the Emperor. If Bush or his underlings were to proclaim that Crucifixion where to be used at Gitmo they would gladly support its use.

I disagree with those who say nothing will be done. These facts are coming out now and will continue to come out as they dig deeper and have some oversight, which is what was missing for the first 6 years. Plus the fact that so much information has been hidden in this administration.
If you feel pissed about what you are reading and hearing about these scoundrels, so is everyone one else (except perhaps the Moron Factor of 24 percent).
This war is effecting the economy, the economy is what every person understands when he can't buy groceries or gas etc. and has to start doing without. THAT will break the huge cloud of lethargy and apathy that has strangled Americans for so long, they "were" comfortable. Take away that comfort and see how things go. Hunger and want can overthrow governments.
Look for a revolution coming to a town near you.

Joe O. @ 19:

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 9:

I talked to my Christian friend who asked "Why shouldn't the US torture an enemy of the state?"

I said, one word, "Jesus"!

He said nothing more.

Isn't it ironic? How supposed Christians that claim to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ have themselves turned into the very thing that Christ stood up against. They have knowingly or unknowingly turned into their very own version of Pontius Pilate and just like Pilate they approvingly support the actions of the Emperor. If Bush or his underlings were to proclaim that Crucifixion where to be used at Gitmo they would gladly support its use.

So Bush is the anti-christ?

Verdillac @ 15:

sdfilter @ 12:

General_Rennenkampf @ 7:

Hang the lot of them, (after a fair trial, of course) I say!

As much as I understand this impulse, why don't we start moving our thinking toward a more civilized view? How about "jail them for life without parole, after a fair trial?

Death is a release...an ending of suffering....I want these monsters kept alive (even going as far as unnatural means) as long as possible so that their egos can scream in pain for being locked in cold cells, as far from free air and sunlight as possible. They don't deserve Death's grace!

sdfilter @ 12:

General_Rennenkampf @ 7:

Hang the lot of them, (after a fair trial, of course) I say!

As much as I understand this impulse, why don't we start moving our thinking toward a more civilized view? How about "jail them for life without parole, after a fair trial?

I believe that justice should be proportional. For the Iraqi's and Afghans's sake, we should give them the same punishment they so willingly inflicted on others. That goes for the Abu Ghraib people, and the Haditha massacre perpetrators as well. The Bush Administration not only broke Nuremberg, they took a crap on the shards.

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 14:

Joe O. @ 8:

chervilant @ 5:

Let's add Nancy Pelosi for aiding and abetting...

I agree. There is no in between in this. To use Bush's phrase, you're either with us or your with the war criminals. From the looks of things, Nancy and many others are backing the war criminals.

You're wrong. Pelosi can't do anything until the American people get behind her. I'm not talking the few hundred who visit Crooks and Liars or the so-called-liberals. I'm talking about the Joe-Six-Packs. With her fragile minority and the way the stupid American public thinks/the way the Republicans are so successful as playing the politics of fear and stupidity, the Dems would be gone in one quick shot if they tried to impeach Bush. Don't let you beliefs cloud your judgment. The stupid Americans are still in charge. If you need any proof, just watch how the media treats Democrats vs how they treat Republicans. The Republicans have to be caught with their pants down with schoolchildren before they get noticed. The press actively seek out any weakness in the DEMS much like the way Britney Spears is hounded.

Well, I can't argue with you there from that perspective about the stupid people because that obviously is the case. I've never been one to make excuses for any politician no matter who they are and Nancy Pelosi is no exception. I simply call them as I see them given the moment and at this moment that is the way I see it. If Pelosi is able to do something later on against these war criminals then so be it. I will support her in her efforts.

Joe O. @ 28:

Organic George @ 23:

Joe O. @ 19:

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 9:

Isn't it ironic? How supposed Christians that claim to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ have themselves turned into the very thing that Christ stood up against. They have knowingly or unknowingly turned into their very own version of Pontius Pilate and just like Pilate they approvingly support the actions of the Emperor. If Bush or his underlings were to proclaim that Crucifixion where to be used at Gitmo they would gladly support its use.

So Bush is the anti-christ?

As odd as it may sound, I do know some people that are convinced that he is.

You have to believe in that garbage to begin with to make the statement.
The biggest danger to mankind is his belief that some great power up in the sky has something to do with mans misfortunes. The bible was written at a time when there was no science good enough to explain anything so stories were created. Those stories were created by the same people who thought the earth was flat and that all the other visible things in the sky revolved around the earth.
Need I go on.

Will 'someone' please come to the aid of our country?

Joe O. @ 3:

Well, I will give Sullivan credit. It is a start. My list of war criminals is much, much longer though.

Yeah...MUCH longer...the entire GOP, and a few Dems to boot.

♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 29:

Joe O. @ 28:

Organic George @ 23:

Joe O. @ 19:

So Bush is the anti-christ?

As odd as it may sound, I do know some people that are convinced that he is.

You have to believe in that garbage to begin with to make the statement.
The biggest danger to mankind is his belief that some great power up in the sky has something to do with mans misfortunes. The bible was written at a time when there was no science good enough to explain anything so stories were created. Those stories were created by the same people who thought the earth was flat and that all the other visible things in the sky revolved around the earth.
Need I go on.

OK, I'm clear on the absolute, unrefutable fact that Earth is only 6,000 years old (give or take a few minutes). But that doesn't explain the paradox of where John McCain was before that.

♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 34:

henry walace @ 31:

Will 'someone' please come to the aid of our country?

You must be over 55 years old to remember that ... LOL

Yes Bob, well ove 55 and I've been waiting a long time. lol

henry walace @ 37:

♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 34:

henry walace @ 31:

Will 'someone' please come to the aid of our country?

You must be over 55 years old to remember that ... LOL

Yes Bob, well ove 55 and I've been waiting a long time. lol

Typing classes and Palmer Method handwriting. Yep, I'm older than sand (71) and get a kick out of how cock-sure some people are of many things when their sprouts.
I watch with great sadness what has become of our country and much of the world.
I moved here to live amongst people who smile easily and eat mostly vegetable (and maybe an insect of two LOL)

I knew 'ol Andrew had a liberal inside him, screaming to get out.

Seriously, let's give credit where credit is due: Sullivan may be conservative 'in nature' but he has evinces a strong, un-compromised moral compass.

Robert

♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 21:

I disagree with those who say nothing will be done. These facts are coming out now and will continue to come out as they dig deeper and have some oversight, which is what was missing for the first 6 years. Plus the fact that so much information has been hidden in this administration.
If you feel pissed about what you are reading and hearing about these scoundrels, so is everyone one else (except perhaps the Moron Factor of 24 percent).
This war is effecting the economy, the economy is what every person understands when he can't buy groceries or gas etc. and has to start doing without. THAT will break the huge cloud of lethargy and apathy that has strangled Americans for so long, they "were" comfortable. Take away that comfort and see how things go. Hunger and want can overthrow governments.
Look for a revolution coming to a town near you.

Look back through history at all the things previous governments did, and never answered to. Every leader is guilty of it in some way or another. Even Clinton, and look how people worship the ground he walks on. Doesn't even come into their minds that he killed thousands of women and children by routinely bombing whenever a new revelation came out about some new bimbo. Nothing will ever be done about the Bush Regime and the next government will be the same.

When Rumsfeld started complaining about Caliphates it confirmed he was a lowly war criminal.
As for Yoo? I will rejoice when justice finds him.

.....And once the people's "traitor hunt" begins, we will leave no stone unturned, no criminal unscathed. It will be poetic justice to witness these liars and frauds - shackled and heading for the nearest prison once the Democrats retake this white house.

I saw this segtment, and wasn't sure that I heard it right. Matthews response was so lame, I wasn't sure that Sullivan had truly articulated what the Sunday morning pundits haven't had the balls to say.

ConcernedCanuck @ 43:

♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 21:

I disagree with those who say nothing will be done. These facts are coming out now and will continue to come out as they dig deeper and have some oversight, which is what was missing for the first 6 years. Plus the fact that so much information has been hidden in this administration.
If you feel pissed about what you are reading and hearing about these scoundrels, so is everyone one else (except perhaps the Moron Factor of 24 percent).
This war is effecting the economy, the economy is what every person understands when he can't buy groceries or gas etc. and has to start doing without. THAT will break the huge cloud of lethargy and apathy that has strangled Americans for so long, they "were" comfortable. Take away that comfort and see how things go. Hunger and want can overthrow governments.
Look for a revolution coming to a town near you.

Look back through history at all the things previous governments did, and never answered to. Every leader is guilty of it in some way or another. Even Clinton, and look how people worship the ground he walks on. Doesn't even come into their minds that he killed thousands of women and children by routinely bombing whenever a new revelation came out about some new bimbo. Nothing will ever be done about the Bush Regime and the next government will be the same.

I was simply stating that when the masses get hungry and can't afford to live, when their wallets are effected, things happen.These people haven't seen that. Here in asia, whenever it looks like there is some big unrest starting, the first thing that happens is cheaper food for people. A quiet stomach makes a restful mind.

henry walace @ 31:

Will 'someone' please come to the aid of our country?

But do we really deserve to be helped since we have allowed these things to happen.

The constant remodeling of opinion.

Easter(?) Jefferson Airplane:

One man of peace dies, and a hundred wars begin. You keep murdering
people in his christian name--I thought he said--I thought he said that was
a sin. Soldier where have you been?

For those of you here who think Sullivan deserves some "credit" read the following from Sullivan's blog.
It doesn;t take a genious to know that Rumsfeld Yoo and the whole administration should be tried for war crimes, but it takes a special kind of hypocrite to state they "deserve it" when Sullivan dismissed oppostion to the war and cheered Bush on so enthusiastically. The torture of which he speaks is a DIRECT consequence of the war Sullivan argued for and promoted.

Isn't the encouragement of crime itself a crime?

October 20 2002:

“My view is simple: if we do not disarm Saddam now, we never will. And if we don't, a full-scale nuclear, biological and chemical war is inevitable in the Middle East; and that war, with the help of terror groups like al Qaeda, will soon come to LA and New York and London and Washington. So the choice is a dangerous war now; or a much more destructive war later. I know democracies don't like to hear these as the two options; democracies rightly, understandably hate to go to war. But these choices, in my view, are the only ones we actually have”

"Then there's the latest anti-Iraq war argument. The old line was that we have to go after al Qaeda, not Iraq, because al Qaeda is the bigger threat. We can't do both. But the obvious response is: why on earth not? The military says it can be done as a practical matter. As a political matter, a victory against Iraq would, in my view, likely help the war on al Qaeda, opening a trove of intelligence, demoralizing anti-American forces in the region, and acting as a model for a post-tyrannical Middle East"

"Ideologically, most of Arab public opinion, shielded by the police states most Arabs live in, hates the U.S. regardless of what we do. What we've learned is that although this hatred is constant, their respect for us isn't. Under Clinton, they held us in contempt. Hence the steady rise of al Qaeda and the growing belligerence on the West Bank in the 1990s. Under Bush since 9/11, they're far more circumspect, as well they should be. The Afghanistan campaign was therefore the best argument against Islamic extremism the Arab world has heard in a long, long time,,,,"

"….That's why this is not the time to lose our nerve. In fact, it's time to steel ourselves and press on. Our problem right now is our passivity. We need to take this war to the enemy sooner rather than later. Or they will bring it back to us. In fact, they already are."

October 19 2002"

"It's my judgment that president Bill Clinton's policies - not his person or his private life or anything else - but his policies left the world a far more dangerous place than when he took office. History will judge him brutally for what he has done to damage world peace. He may have meant well; but we must live with the consequences"

Shouldn't Sullivan apply the same criticism to himself?

Excerpts from:
http://time-blog.com/daily_dish/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2002_10_01_d...

David Rockefeller is the chief war criminal and traitor. They ALL work for him.

L.A. Confidential @ 58:

EliteLemming @ 56:

Why is John Yoo still allowed to teach our young people.

Same reason Bush is still allowed to be President.

Yeah, but he teaches at Stanford(I think), do they really want infamous and traitorous positions associated with their school? Do they support his positions? Promote them?

General_Rennenkampf @ 54:

CafeenMan @ 48:

ConcernedCanuck @ 43:

♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 21:

Look back through history at all the things previous governments did, and never answered to. Every leader is guilty of it in some way or another. Even Clinton, and look how people worship the ground he walks on. Doesn't even come into their minds that he killed thousands of women and children by routinely bombing whenever a new revelation came out about some new bimbo. Nothing will ever be done about the Bush Regime and the next government will be the same.

The only way leaders ever pay the price is when there's an uprising or they commit suicide. Either way they get off far easier than they deserve.

I think Bush should look to his mentor, Hitler, and end his term the same way. Hell, I'll even go buy an American flag and raise it up high.

The second won't ever happen, and revolution in 2008 USA is not Revolution in Russia 1917. It would fail. People with stones and sticks don't do well against Abrams and F-16s, as Palestinians have found out repeatedly.

The USSR fell from the inside out. So have a few others. Even if the US became a total Military Dictatorship, if the people act as one in discontent, "stuff" can happen.

God is allowing the world to be destroyed, it has been fun guys. Nothing left
to do now except crawl under neath a rock.

♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 65:

The USSR fell from the inside out. So have a few others. Even if the US became a total Military Dictatorship, if the people act as one in discontent, "stuff" can happen.

We're now a Techno TV Media Dictatorship. And it appears to be working like a charm.

sah @ 66:

yet..NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO THESE INDIVIDUALS.
Everyone's to busy..yapping on their cell phone..going to the ballgame..watching NASCAR..shopping to the mall..you know, much more important things.

With the economy going in the toilet, there will be alot less going to ball games, shopping at the malls, driving, ect, ect.

L.A. Confidential @ 69:

♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 65:

The USSR fell from the inside out. So have a few others. Even if the US became a total Military Dictatorship, if the people act as one in discontent, "stuff" can happen.

We're now a Techno TV Media Dictatorship. And it appears to be working like a charm.

Give people a choice of community service like picking trash off a neighborhood street or stretch of highway or TV and Internet and see what they choose.

diamondmc @ 71:

sah @ 66:

yet..NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO THESE INDIVIDUALS.
Everyone's to busy..yapping on their cell phone..going to the ballgame..watching NASCAR..shopping to the mall..you know, much more important things.

With the economy going in the toilet, there will be alot less going to ball games, shopping at the malls, driving, ect, ect.

Now if only the economy would get bad enough to make them have to turn off CABLE TV ... That would make a change eh?

This group and others will be pardoned in January. Why indulge in such mental masturbation? Fugeddaboudit!

Robert Murphy @ 41:

I knew 'ol Andrew had a liberal inside him, screaming to get out. Seriously, let's give credit where credit is due: Sullivan may be conservative 'in nature' but he has evinces a strong, un-compromised moral compass.

You have got to be kidding! What Andrew has is a moral compass that points to what's convenient.

I bet we all have FBI files by next week if we don't already LOL

A crime to discuss war crimes but not to commit them

Death Star @ 67:

God is allowing the world to be destroyed, it has been fun guys. Nothing left
to do now except crawl under neath a rock.

Spirituality, in its truest sense, has no enemies. The same can't be said of religion.

They should should be as should Gonzo, but somehow I think they won't.

I've got a stock reply to creationists now. I tell them that I believe they are belittling "god" by turning "god" into a fairy tale.
I do better with conservatives by asking them if George Washington was a conservative. While they are thinking about how to answer I start listing a whole bunch of other people who are on our currency.

In Pakistan lawyers took to the streets to demand justice (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/12/pakistan.declanwalsh or http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/11/08/pakist17282.htm and many other references). When the lawyers in the US start taking to the streets I’ll begin to believe that something will happen with the accusations of war crimes. Until then – business as usual. Pinochet was finally detained through an arrest warrant by a Spanish judge, not the Chilean courts. No level of the US government or citizenry is prepared to take a stand, least of all American lawyers despite their professional duty to honour the law of their land. The only way this can be initiated, it seems to me, is through arrest warrants by foreign courts (many of them). The American public, government and professional class is simply cowed and stupefied (notwithstanding some small pockets of dissent – I’m thinking of Arthur Silber and a number of others) by its own media, by its culture of exceptionalism and by its economic dependence on the military and on oil. But from outside, it may be possible to insure that whenever these criminals get their passports out to travel, they start looking over their shoulders for the long arm of international law they have managed to abuse for so long.

Organic George @ 23:

Joe O. @ 19:

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 9:

I talked to my Christian friend who asked "Why shouldn't the US torture an enemy of the state?"

I said, one word, "Jesus"!

He said nothing more.

Isn't it ironic? How supposed Christians that claim to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ have themselves turned into the very thing that Christ stood up against. They have knowingly or unknowingly turned into their very own version of Pontius Pilate and just like Pilate they approvingly support the actions of the Emperor. If Bush or his underlings were to proclaim that Crucifixion where to be used at Gitmo they would gladly support its use.

So Bush is the anti-christ?

Well, let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to discover the number 666 tatooed to his butt cheek.

henry walace @ 31:

Will 'someone' please come to the aid of our country?

Reminds me of the Eldridge Cleaver quote: "If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem."

Then my very astute friend Bill said, "The problem is that WE are the solution!!!"

Hardy f'ing, har har.

L.A. Confidential @ 58:

EliteLemming @ 56:

Why is John Yoo still allowed to teach our young people.

Same reason Bush is still allowed to be President.

Same reason Rove is allowed to make money on propaganda...er....speaking tours.

Joe O. @ 3:

Well, I will give Sullivan credit. It is a start. My list of war criminals is much, much longer though.

Yep.

...

sdfilter @ 12:

General_Rennenkampf @ 7:

Hang the lot of them, (after a fair trial, of course) I say!

As much as I understand this impulse, why don't we start moving our thinking toward a more civilized view? How about "jail them for life without parole, after a fair trial?

As Judge Roy Bean said they deserve a fair trial followed by a firt class hanging!
Personally I would rather see life without parole.

Sullivan: 'Our national policy has been designed by war criminals.'

Matthews: 'Really? Well, next up is our fun segment! Right after these messages!'

Christ-- big, corporate media is just pathetic.

Add the Rest of the Neocon Bush/Cheney PNAC Cabal to the long list of GOP War Criminals.

Time to hold these traitors accountable and bring them before the courts for their crimes!

This being the case, this begs the question why the current supine congress, the one that was supposed to bring the occupation to an end, has not brought forth impeachment proceedings against Bush as well as Cheney.

because any investigation will reveal the extent of the democrats' complicity. esp nancy pelosi.

I actually like Andrew Sullivan. He's one of the more principled conservatives, and also very much of a Christian. I watched a lengthy interview with Russert and Christipher Hitchens (can't stand him) just yesterday. Sullivan is an Obama supporter and has actually done his homework on the man, including reading both his books. He also defended Rev Wright and took Hitchens to task on some of his completely inane comments. Sullivan had actually bothered to read a sampling of Rev Wright's sermons and attempts to understand Black Liberation Theology. He said it wasn't his theology but understood where it was coming from. He said many of Wright's more controversial comments are about recognizing the pain in a group of people who have been oppressed and disenfranchised. It's not about hating "whitey" or hating America. He talked about how Obama really does transcend those divides. He actually went to that church to get a better understanding of the black experience since he grew up in Hawaii and mostly white world. Anyway, it was a good interview, at least Sullivan's comments.

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 9:

I talked to my Christian friend who asked "Why shouldn't the US torture an enemy of the state?"

I said, one word, "Jesus"!

He said nothing more.

Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

And Mathews is such a POS: "really".

sdfilter @ 12:

General_Rennenkampf @ 7:

Hang the lot of them, (after a fair trial, of course) I say!

As much as I understand this impulse, why don't we start moving our thinking toward a more civilized view? How about "jail them for life without parole, after a fair trial?

i agree.

i'm from illinois, where governor ryan suspended the death penalty (about the only thing the old curmudgeon did right before getting his @$$ hauled off in a paddy wagon).

i say put rummy on trial, and if he's guilty, toss him in a windowless 10x10 in joliet -it would be a homecoming of sorts for the old chicago native...

and give him one book, and one book only, to read over and over until he's ready to meet his maker -The giving tree" by shel silverstien.

Hannah Hussein @ 42:

That Pinochet was indicted in Spain is an indication to me that civilization still has outposts which, if I were Bushco, I would be wary of visiting.

There is no limitation in statute for capital offenses.

Pinochet arrested in Britain and held for months under house arrest, it was sweet public embarrassment and a fitting end to a murdering dictator's career. Of course intense pressure from his friends got him released eventually, but still his legacy was ruined.
Rumsfeld almost had the same happen to him in France the other month, but timely action by US officials spiriting him out of France and into Germany then onto a US airbase, then flown out on a military plane, not bad when a private citizen has the
full resources of the US gov machine at his disposal, including keeping an office in the Pentagon if the reports are true.
Secret government of the unelected in action !

Why is Sully always on these shows? He is one of the 'journalists' who got almost everything wrong. He was cheering Bush/Cheney and calling Democrats a "liberal elite fifth column" long after the Iraq quagmire went downhill.

Congratulations, John Yoo! You may have already won a free vacation to The Hague!

You fucking hypocrite Sullivan. Remember when Noam Chomsky called bush and gang war criminals on Real Time and you said "this is the kind of insanity we hear from the far left". I guess your opinion suits the time doesn't it? Douchebag.

jace @ 40:

And this is some sort of revelation? Where has this ass-hat been for the last seven years?

wrong attitude. we're going to need all the help we can get...

It should be noted that torture isn't the only flavor of war crime we've seen from this administration. It is much broader than that.

Mike @ 119:

You fucking hypocrite Sullivan. Remember when Noam Chomsky called bush and gang war criminals on Real Time and you said "this is the kind of insanity we hear from the far left". I guess your opinion suits the time doesn't it? Douchebag.

I hang on ever word from Chomsky. There has been an ever so long term effort to marginalize him from many quarters, IN THIS COUNTRY. Elsewhere in the world his opinion is sought out.

That Andrew Sullivan now comes around to that same opinion is a remarkable fact.

We can see progress at each wingnut's funeral, but occasionally we can witness it first hand coming from their own lips.

When one says something that upholds what I take as the values of civilization, I cherish it.

Sullivan says they will be indicted, and THEY DESERVE TO BE.

That is progress.

Mike @ 119:

You fucking hypocrite Sullivan. Remember when Noam Chomsky called bush and gang war criminals on Real Time and you said "this is the kind of insanity we hear from the far left". I guess your opinion suits the time doesn't it? Douchebag.

Just another case of 'fair weather' Republican, they started jumping ship in 05, quite a few of the neocons jumped back then, Iraq was visibly falling apart and coundnt be spun as even a middling success to anybody with a brain.
The denser Repugs are slow in absorbing and processing reality, partly because they are Rs, partly because they are money chasing morality free scoundrels.

bullfrog @ 121:

jace @ 40:

And this is some sort of revelation? Where has this ass-hat been for the last seven years?

wrong attitude. we're going to need all the help we can get...

The only help from fair weather Republicans is in their ability to back stab each other and avoid prosecution, they will not go out of their way to do anything moral in rebuilding US democracy and the rule of law.
Remember Republicanism is all about 'me, myself and I' everybody else can go hang, they are vermin.

And if any talking pundit head gets to be put on trial for aiding and abetting these war criminals one of them should be Andrew Sullivan. Too little to late Andrew. Go F**k yourself for being part of the war chorus at the beginning and a supporter of Bush. Some of us haven't forgotten. You change with the wind Andrew, which means you will always be useless to the citizenry.

So according to most of the geniuses posting here, no one who supported Bush in the past is allowed on our side now, right? Well guess what, if that is the case, the Democrats will never win another election again. Sure Sullivan has been on the wrong side of many issues before, but at least he can admit it. People like him need to be welcomed for finally coming to their senses even if you don't agree with every thing they say. You're not helping.

Where would you stop?

The practical difficulty with prosecuting any of them, even just the three cited by Sullivan, is that you would not be able to stop at just the three. You would have to go up the chain, to Bush and Cheney, but you would also have to go down, to get all of the probably dozens of political appointees at DoJ and DoD who were involved, and then further down, to include all of the SESs, and generals and admirals and even colonels, who, contrary to very explicit UCMJ provisions, obeyed illegal orders. And, of course, the torture program was just one of many criminal programs, with the same criminals often involved in more than one program. Pursuing even one such program will make it difficult to leave the otheres unpursued, even if one were inclined to do so to limit the scale of prosecutions, because investigating the principals for one program will inevitably uncover their criminality in other programs.

The situation is very different from Watergate. Nixon found the bureaucracy resistant to putting govt agencies to the service of his criminal schemes, however much he cloaked them as vital to national security. He had to set up parallel organizations, the WH plumbers et al, to do the dirty work. Therefore the criminal involvement of govt officials was sharply limited. But, at least post-9/11, BushCo found the bureaucracy willing to do the crimes he sought done, and vast swathes of govt committed a vast intertwined plexus of crime.

This difference means that this time we have a lot more criminals, and, more importantly, a lot more very junior criminals who were "just following orders". No, that it isn't a very good defense. But it isn't, if we go far enough down the chain of command, an entirely inconsequential defense either. Of course, as a minimum, folks who obeyed criminal orders, who in any way participated in a criminal enterprise, should lose their govt jobs and never again be allowed in public service. Any punishment beyond that, though, would be excessive for many of them, who were, after all, merely participating in programs that had not just official-seeming, executive branch, approval, but at least some color of public, Congressional, approval. As a practical matter, you would want to give the lower level accomplices immunity anyway in order to secure their testimony against the higher-ups, whom you do want to face the full rigor of the law. Something like South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission would serve the purpose, because the setting is so similar, an entire criminal system embedded deeply and intertwined with legitimate functions of govt.

Another consideration that calls for some prosecutorial structure to deal with this problem aside from the US Attys, is the inevitable pay-back the Republicans will no doubt want to have as revenge the next time they win the presidency. No matter how scrupulously fair the prosecutions, no matter how much the prosecutions of the BushCo machine leans backwards in the direction of leniency, you can be sure that the dozens, scores, perhaps hundreds of Republicans who will need to be prosecuted will enter the mythology of the right wing, for generations, as blameless victims of a vicious witch-hunt. The prosecutors will themselves predictably face prosecution, for false prosecution, the next time a Republican names the US Attys. The obvious solution is that we need to remove the direction of US Attys, and probably the FBI and other federal law enforcement as well, from the presidency. There is no good reason for even a good president to control the US Attys, and their control by a bad president has already proven problematic. Their control by a bad president taking over after a mass prosecution of Republican criminality would likely prove the end of our republic, as we could expect proscription lists of Democrats as revenge for even the most careful and scrupulously just prosecution of the current crop of Republican official criminals.

And, finally, independent prosecution would facilitate the prosecution of Democratic enablers and facilitators in the Congress. A Democratic president might find it hard to do justice to political allies, yet the elimination of these folks is perhaps the most important political benefit that could arise from the operation of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

ferrofluid @ 129:

bullfrog @ 121:

jace @ 40:

And this is some sort of revelation? Where has this ass-hat been for the last seven years?

wrong attitude. we're going to need all the help we can get...

The only help from fair weather Republicans is in their ability to back stab each other and avoid prosecution, they will not go out of their way to do anything moral in rebuilding US democracy and the rule of law.
Remember Republicanism is all about 'me, myself and I' everybody else can go hang, they are vermin.

with all due respect, the mess our country is in is not solely because of republicans. sure, most of the blame can be laid on the republicans, no doubt. but

democratic warmongers like joe lieberman and enablers like hillary clinton are part of the problem too. (basically, it's time for the dlc to pack up their gypsy wagon and leave town.)

when republicans like andrew sullivan or chuck hagel want to start talking about fixing the country, we ought to listen.

we need all the help we can get. and we'd all do well to remember our own complicity.

i didn't even vote in the 2000 election, i was so apathetic at the time. and, yeah, i feel enormously guilty. i've been trying to make up for it since.

Glen Tomkins @ 135:

Where would you stop?

The practical difficulty with prosecuting any of them, even just the three cited by Sullivan, is that you would not be able to stop at just the three. You would have to go up the chain, to Bush and Cheney, but you would also have to go down, to get all of the probably dozens of political appointees at DoJ and DoD who were involved, and then further down, to include all of the SESs, and generals and admirals and even colonels, who, contrary to very explicit UCMJ provisions, obeyed illegal orders. And, of course, the torture program was just one of many criminal programs, with the same criminals often involved in more than one program. Pursuing even one such program will make it difficult to leave the otheres unpursued, even if one were inclined to do so to limit the scale of prosecutions, because investigating the principals for one program will inevitably uncover their criminality in other programs.

The situation is very different from Watergate. Nixon found the bureaucracy resistant to putting govt agencies to the service of his criminal schemes, however much he cloaked them as vital to national security. He had to set up parallel organizations, the WH plumbers et al, to do the dirty work. Therefore the criminal involvement of govt officials was sharply limited. But, at least post-9/11, BushCo found the bureaucracy willing to do the crimes he sought done, and vast swathes of govt committed a vast intertwined plexus of crime.

This difference means that this time we have a lot more criminals, and, more importantly, a lot more very junior criminals who were "just following orders". No, that it isn't a very good defense. But it isn't, if we go far enough down the chain of command, an entirely inconsequential defense either. Of course, as a minimum, folks who obeyed criminal orders, who in any way participated in a criminal enterprise, should lose their govt jobs and never again be allowed in public service. Any punishment beyond that, though, would be excessive for many of them, who were, after all, merely participating in programs that had not just official-seeming, executive branch, approval, but at least some color of public, Congressional, approval. As a practical matter, you would want to give the lower level accomplices immunity anyway in order to secure their testimony against the higher-ups, whom you do want to face the full rigor of the law. Something like South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission would serve the purpose, because the setting is so similar, an entire criminal system embedded deeply and intertwined with legitimate functions of govt.

Another consideration that calls for some prosecutorial structure to deal with this problem aside from the US Attys, is the inevitable pay-back the Republicans will no doubt want to have as revenge the next time they win the presidency. No matter how scrupulously fair the prosecutions, no matter how much the prosecutions of the BushCo machine leans backwards in the direction of leniency, you can be sure that the dozens, scores, perhaps hundreds of Republicans who will need to be prosecuted will enter the mythology of the right wing, for generations, as blameless victims of a vicious witch-hunt. The prosecutors will themselves predictably face prosecution, for false prosecution, the next time a Republican names the US Attys. The obvious solution is that we need to remove the direction of US Attys, and probably the FBI and other federal law enforcement as well, from the presidency. There is no good reason for even a good president to control the US Attys, and their control by a bad president has already proven problematic. Their control by a bad president taking over after a mass prosecution of Republican criminality would likely prove the end of our republic, as we could expect proscription lists of Democrats as revenge for even the most careful and scrupulously just prosecution of the current crop of Republican official criminals.

And, finally, independent prosecution would facilitate the prosecution of Democratic enablers and facilitators in the Congress. A Democratic president might find it hard to do justice to political allies, yet the elimination of these folks is perhaps the most important political benefit that could arise from the operation of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Its a monstrous can shipping container of worms, explains why Nancy et al dont want to go there.
A 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission' might be the answer, BUT it would allow too many extreme Republican criminals to get off the hook, plus all the people who enabled them for power money and influence.
All the crimes in South Africa committed by the white ruling regime pales into minor misdemenors compared to what happened in the USA over the last seven years.
In SA the former white government types mostly carried on and that country is pretty well integrated now, its rich and poor and everything inbetween, but they have a working society and work together for the future now.
Here in the US we would have to investigate 1000s and put on trial maybe 10,000 plus perps, the Republican party is an organized crime style thing, it extends it tentacles down to every local town and elected and appointed position, corrupts all that it comes into contact with.

Yes, Chris, really. The only other thing I would add is Bush and Cheney should be tried as war criminals also. Have a nice day in over paid talking head delusional punditry land, Chris!!

The Chris Matthews Show: Andrew Sullivan Calls Rumsfeld, Addington & Yoo War Criminals

Rumsfield, Addington & Yoo were cheered on by Andrew Sullivan for the last eight years.

Sullivan also says that he sleeps with women now. He has given up barebacking.

Sullivan is dangerous to your physical and mental health.

Like many a preacher and politician before him, Andrew Sullivan, the neoconservative gay pundit, was caught with his pants down. The story goes like this: Some time ago, Sullivan, who is HIV positive, took out an anonymous personal ad on a website called Barebackcity.com, which advertises itself as the "one stop source for bareback [i.e., unprotected anal] sex." He listed himself under the screen name "RawMuscleGlutes," posted two headless photographs, and solicited bareback sex, preferably (although he did not say only) with other HIV-positive men.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010618/kim20010605

They ARE war criminals. Under US law anyway.

kerplunk @ 143:

Like many a preacher and politician before him, Andrew Sullivan, the neoconservative gay pundit, was caught with his pants down. The story goes like this: Some time ago, Sullivan, who is HIV positive, took out an anonymous personal ad on a website called Barebackcity.com, which advertises itself as the "one stop source for bareback [i.e., unprotected anal] sex." He listed himself under the screen name "RawMuscleGlutes," posted two headless photographs, and solicited bareback sex, preferably (although he did not say only) with other HIV-positive men.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010618/kim20010605

SO?

Why do I give a shit about Sullivan's sex life? I wish him all the bareback sex with other positive men in the world! I wish almost all the people in the world happy, healthy sex lives - even people whose opinions I can't stand.

Sullivan, for all any past intellectual transgressions he committed, is often correct now on many things regarding the war and the presidential race. So, whatevs.

maxson @ 147:

kerplunk @ 143:

Like many a preacher and politician before him, Andrew Sullivan, the neoconservative gay pundit, was caught with his pants down. The story goes like this: Some time ago, Sullivan, who is HIV positive, took out an anonymous personal ad on a website called Barebackcity.com, which advertises itself as the "one stop source for bareback [i.e., unprotected anal] sex." He listed himself under the screen name "RawMuscleGlutes," posted two headless photographs, and solicited bareback sex, preferably (although he did not say only) with other HIV-positive men.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010618/kim20010605

SO?

Why do I give a shit about Sullivan's sex life? I wish him all the bareback sex with other positive men in the world! I wish almost all the people in the world happy, healthy sex lives - even people whose opinions I can't stand.

Sullivan, for all any past intellectual transgressions he committed, is often correct now on many things regarding the war and the presidential race. So, whatevs.

It's Sullivan's hypocrisy thats the point. Too bad you didn't read the article instead of jumping to conclusions that the point is about someone's sex life.