The Af/Pak knot isn't getting any easier to unentangle
By Steve Hynd Tuesday Feb 17, 2009 10:00amThis Sunday, Steve Croft of 60 Minutes reported on the state of the insurgency in Pakistan, explaining it as a concerted attempt by Islamists to take over that nation. He even spoke to President Zardari:
Asked how important it is to stop extremism, President Zardari told Kroft, "It’s important enough. I lost my wife to it. My children's mother, the most populist leader of Pakistan. It's important to stop them and make sure that it doesn't happen again and they don't take over our way of life. That's what they want to do."
..."Right now, you have a situation in the Swat area. It’s only three hours from Islamabad where the Taliban is very strong there," Kroft remarked. "How did that happen?"
"It's been happening over time. And it's happened out of denial. Everybody was in denial that they're weak and they won't be able to take over. That, they won't be able to give us a challenge. And our forces weren't increased. And therefore we have weaknesses. And they are taking advantage of that weakness," Zardari explained.
Also on Sunday, news came of Pakistani attempts to sign a truce with the Taliban, one that would involve Sharia supplanting Pakistani national laws there. Pakistani officials deny any disconnect between Zardari's warning of an existential threat and the peace deal: "We are not compromising with militants, instead trying to isolate the militants, and for that I do not think America will have any objection," said Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi - but previous such truces, which were meant to end Islamist terror attacks which have plagued Pakistan, have swiftly collapsed because the Taliban know they are winning and can keep demanding concessions. Large chunks of Pakistan are now in Taliban control, and there seems to be no will in the ruling Pakistani feudal elite to seriously contest that.
Indeed, the will of the Pakistani elite may well be largely in favor of Taliban control. A disconnect between word and action exists whether Pakistani officials want to admit it or not and it shouldn't be forgotten that the Taliban and other regional Islamist militant groups are largely the making of Pakistan's ISI spy service and army in the first place. Pakistan has long conducted its foreign policy in the region by the use of these proxies and may now have "gone native", casting in their lot with their creations while pretending otherwise to ward of Western anger and to gain US military aid. Chair of the Joint Chiefs Admiral Mullen thinks he's building trust with Zardari - the most corrupt politician in a land rife with them - and Army chief Kyani - who was the head of the ISI while their Lashkar-e-Taiba carried out a 2006 bombing spree in Mumbai and planned the 2008 attacks. One wonders how someone so gullible could rise to his position.
Even so, reaching for the military as the right hammer for every nail, especially every Pakistani nail, is unwise. Over 80% of Pakistanis see the "War on Terror" as a Western concern, one their feudal leaders have un-necessarily enmeshed themselves in. Poking the hornets nest with a stick accomplishes nothing except stirring up hornets and if the US keeps poking Pakistan, intelligence analysts have warned, its most likely just to turn that disaproval into outright anger and hasten an extremist takeover.
Meanwhile, across the border in Afghanistan, the hawks' plan for a generations-long occupation there is hitting some snags too. President Karzai has lost patience with Western leaders who talk about caring but don't seem to care enough to stop causing civilian casualties. He's indicated that he'd like to see a timetable for withdrawal and in return the Obama administration has indicated it would like to see him gone, replaced by someone more malleable and (hopefully) less corrupt in the wrong ways. Karzai said Sunday that he believed rumors about his alleged drug-lord brother were being circulated by the US to drive Karzai himself from office and he's doing some outreach to the Russians instead.
The Af/Pak knot isn't getting any easier to unentangle, but one thing is for sure - saying "trust us, we're the good Romans", as Admiral Mullen and others advocate, isn't going to help cut it.
Crossposted from Newshoggers








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ain't this a fine kettle o' fish!
A war on 3 fronts!
Wonderful.
George Bush took his eye off the ball.
He allowed his own self interest, the self interest of his bloated corporate ass sucking VP, the self interests of the megalomaniacal neocon fascists in his Administration...to divert attention and resources away from the real battlefield...Afghanistan...and the real enemy...Al Qada...to focus on Iraq and our desire to expand the neocon dream of empire in the Middle East.
We will live with the ignorance mistakes of GW Bush for at least two lifetimes.
what Bin Laden could not...
Thanks alot you fucking asshole.
North Korea - nuclear capability...but diplomacy is working.
Iran - No nukes
Iraq - No nukes, no WMDs
Pakistan - nukes...reconstituted Taliban.
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld.
treasonous bastards.
Tue, 02/17/2009 - 10:12 — liberalNmoderation
what Bin Laden could not...
Thanks alot you fucking asshole.
pickles with a dildo?
Ya lost me...
Think strap-on.
I don't wanna think strap-on! :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3LyXGKACfs
for invading Pakistan--maybe to 'secure' their nukes?
We're already killing Pakistanis, by the hundreds. I always thought that was a pretty ineffective way to capture hearts and minds...
But hey, change, tight?
Republicans invade nations killing their women and children. Dems bomb them killing their women and children.
...Presidents from each party, your argument has no basis. Democrats do kill women and children from poor foreign lands....Republicans enjoy it.
any ideas on what to do about this?
Do you guys have anything, ANYTHING to offer, other than criticism?
nothing, but is "unentangle" an actual word?
Would be to sit and cheer every post and everything Democrat? Ya, that sounds real exciting.
That wouldn't be right either.
And that's not what I'm asking either...I'm asking for ideas on how to fix it...not to see all things Democratic through rose colored lenses.
and explanations until blue in the face. The response is the same. "STFU", "You are like your hero Hannity", "*&^%^ing *&^hole gibberish, gibberish, gibberish".....
It's actually too bad. Seems being a registered member didn't bring progressives or liberals, but just Dem right most of the time supporters.
sadly enough...you're right.
...some of us commentors. Nothing is your fault, you're smarter than everyone and if you're called out for possibly being wrong, you go Coulter and play victim. You are one of the unfair nutbags who've relentlessly slammed Obama since election night...Yeah, you long ago showed your hand so yes, your bullshit is tiresome. I won't correspond with you again but I will challenge your continued and mostly untrue, Obama bashing BS.
Concerned Canadian? It implies about the US, but from reading a number of your posts you seem most interested in bashing the US and labeling everyone who debates you a Democrat.
I've spent a fair amount of time in Canada, I find the people in general more civil and less aggressive than us Americans. But an annoying trait amongst Canadians, which you share, is a holier-than-thou attitude toward the US, when you're really not that different, or any better. Your clearcuts are bigger, your salmon are disappearing just as fast, your politicians are just as corrupt and corportate-controlled....and about 90% of the Canadians I've asked have never or barely been into the US.
So I won't say STFU, but get off your high horse, your concern hasn't been and isn't being solicited.
The USA sends in enough force to remove their entire nuke arsenal and support systems for same. Leave. Let them solve their own shit.
and it may be the best way to do it.
OVERWHELM them with force in the area of their nukes and secure them.
But do we know exactly where they all are?
Could we get to them before they retaliated against India out of frustration and spite?
I wonder how China will take it if we do that? Hmmm.
Not well at all...
they'll stop funding our deficits and invade us and take away our big screen tvs.
But on the other hand, a militant extremist Taliban regime right there on their border isn't going to set well either.
And then there is Russian opinion. Oh and Iran on Afghanistan's south. Fun times ahead.
and don't forget about the American "anti missile defense" SDI shield that sits on Russia's western border.
Yeah...GW Bush is thorough...he's pretty much fucked up EVERYTHING.
And hopefully Obama can tell the Czech Republic and Poland "sorry, normal people are in charge now and we as a county have changed our mind"
South of Afghanistan, Really.
Interesting correction. Even though Iran is more to the west and some south-west by land mass, it's its involvement in the south of Afghanistan that is more politically interesting, not into it's western area. Going south thru Iran and to the south to the sea is now Afghanistan's best port access right now (ok its slightly south west?). Tactically south is the part in play though. The south of Afghanistan is where the Taliban are strong.
The west of Afghanistan is also more "stable" warlord run, so it's Iran going into the southern half of Afghanistan after Taliban that's the most likely engagement that say into Herat. If Iran gets into this they are going into southern Afghanistan (and maybe into western Pakistan toward Quetta*). If it will make you happier they will be coming from the south-west not due south.
* the idea of Iran being the one to go in and finally grab Osama if things go south in Pakistan is highly amusing
Pakistan is going to fall. While they still have the chance, the current leaders need to get their mukes out of the country and into safe hands. They also need to disable their weapons materials facilities.
should they send them FedEx or DHL?
iirc, they already gave China the list of sites that need to be secured. Or, so said the press from that area.
there is a IS led task force set up to stop Pakistani nukes from being launched, as well.
what's the plan...is Daffy Duck going to blow out the fuses if they light them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzMZKuYNcKA
wadda ya know...it dissssintegrated.
"shouldn't be forgotten that the Taliban and other regional Islamist militant groups are largely the making of Pakistan's ISI spy service"
umm... yeah... but i think that we shouldn't be forgetting OUR role in the rise of the taliban (see, mujahideen).
http://inquirer.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/c...
And ISI is a creation of the CIA, and al Qaeda the Frankenstein of both. My guess is that this is deliberate destabilization of Pakistan in order to justify escalating intervention and eventual invasion.
Well, at least we've got the money for it.
every person born an American citizen should have the right to punch george w. bush in the face and cheney in the chest as hard as they can.
secondly, there is no secondly.
as hard as you can.
run ronnie run!
for the pain bush and cheney have inflicted on
the American citizens, i believe the area to kick
should be between their legs...but then we know
that won't hurt either of them...no balls.
But I think face and chest punchins as well as groin stawmpins are in order for those two.
Let me be the first to punch Cheney in the chest - I bet you I could stop his heart from beating with one good punch -
you know - that tight-fisted knuckle punch intended for Glen Beck's cheekbone...
oh wait it probably got "deleted sitemonitor we do not condone violence"d before you guys could read it!
Fuck how I'd love to punch Cheney in the chest - wheelchair or no wheelchair!
better start working out.
zadari like bush is either stupid or complicit.
he is enabling the taliban to take over his
country and frankly appears to be helping them
do so. and like bush, is allowing the religious
wingnuts take over and dominate. just watch for
it to happen.
A friend (who is Pakistani) calls Zardari "our Bush". From the heavy sarcasm, I took that to mean complicit and stupid actually. Complicit in corruption though.
The president does not run that country (the Army does). So comments in above article about Taliban sympathizers in the Pakistani army are not only real from what I've read, but a more serious issue than what the current "not really all that in charge" President says.
Zardari may say the Taliban was behind his wife's death, but right now it is an even money bet on whether the extremists or the army themselves killed her. Even if the army didn't, the fact it is so believable that they might have is quite telling.
concerned that if he (Zardari) doesn't follow their lead he'll have an unfortunate encounter with some bullets, too?..
That too. That too. Who knows.
When i first heard about this i felt pretty much the same way as i felt on 9/11; total shock and fear of what we might do next. Unfortunately my fears were well grounded then and i have the feeling they are well grounded now.
OT, CBS is reporting that the Obama administration is backing Karl Rove’s right not to testify before Congress!!!
the shit runs so deep, that it can be proven that not only were laws broken....but that these people bordered on or outright committed treason.
These bastards should be swingin' from the end of a rope.
I saw that earlier...not fuckin happy about this shit...not happy at ALL!
Good for Obama. He is the One with a plan afterall! Awesome. Way to go. Don't worry folks, he has far superior information and knows what he is doing. Afterall he's only been in power a few short weeks. Give him time.
n/c
I am sure he knows what he is doing. Trust him. Give him the time needed and he'll prove his worth.
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_not_Bush_...
I am very disappointed over this...not good, not fuckin good.
Be sure to read the comments..
to the best of my ability to sort out the White House position. I have heard it said they do not want to take a position which weakens privelege in the future. Perhaps he has his eye on the day when the Republicans might regain control of one House of Congress and relaunch the investigatory nonsense the pulled during Clinton. Who knows?
Unfortunately I think the Obama administration will quickly find there is no middle ground, but rather loose soil between two opposite sides of very hard objects.
you can be surprising sometimes...one moment, you're posting stuff that hardly makes sense, and then you come up with something like this.
Impressive.
I guess I grew all up without you to tag around with.
seriously...I was a mess back in the day.
for the he/she sh.t. You know, man. Remember?
GAH!
I hate my short attention span...can't remember where I saw the damn thing.
Renounce your empire.
Remove the hundreds of military bases strung around the planet.
Pay instead of Steal.
Take care of yourselves instead of "taking care" of your perceived enemies.
Now, that will mean no more lattes and McMansions and all that other materialist Bullcrap that Americans pride themselves on.
So: McMansions/Empire vs. Peace/sustainability.
"Get Rich : Quickly : Legally.
Pick two."
that lattes came here from Europe. Can we substitute giving up big screens and SUV's and Mini Monster trucks instead?
backed by the delusional sects of same...
"Stuck in the Middle" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX315pexy4o
It's easy too steal from the delusional masses. They just need support.
the Taliban is just another group of assholes who want power in that region. That is not our fight; AQ is. I admit that the two were once married, and that chaos like this allows AQ a home base to grow, but not once was AQ or terrorism mentioned in the above article. We need to get out of this mess and revise our anti-AQ strategy from the ground up.
but foreign barbarity is so horrific? When our leaders where decapitating wives and nobility, it turned into the stuff of tourism and even a Herman's Hermit song. It is just too bad that Western powers wouldn't agree to test out a new policy...quit tampering with regressive countries altogether and let them sort out their own societies as the West was allowed to. Almost every conflict on this planet is the result of, and blowback from, imperialism.
and right on the money! Besides, who gave any nation the right to dictate to the world what they can have for weapons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW60ILq2pJM
Because western barbarism is done in the name of little baby Jeeeebus.
that much about their "regressiveness" or the state of their societies,
we just want to steal their oil, gas and other natural resources, maybe enslave a few folks here and there. That's about it.
"The Af/Pak knot isn't getting any easier to unentangle, but one thing is for sure - saying "trust us, we're the good Romans", as Admiral Mullen and others advocate, isn't going to help cut it."
Cernig's post contains a wealth of good information derived from other
writers but he persists in culminating with a fabricated quote designed to make it appear as if it came from Admiral Mullen. In so doing Cernig undermines his credibility. His link for this quote is to his own previous post in which he goes on at great length to argue this is what Mullen has said, thinks, and/or advocates. To do so he ignores the bulk of what Mullen says and relies instead on a lengthy attack on one source used by Mullen in an op-ed piece. It is guilt by association of the worst sort. And he provides no evidence to back up his assertion.
Has anyone read about this ? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/ameri...
it's troubling to think that many say government is the problem, but they have no problem staffing government with incompetent people. Site Moderator - what do you suggest we do ? talk quietly ? Or scream at the top of your lungs in disgust, as this is our money and many our now complaining about government debt... Can anyone please tell me what happened to the debt during Reagan's Reign ? How many times did the debt increase ? Anyone willing to leave aside politics and address the increase in fraud ? For what ?
Sincerely,
k
..... I heard that what Iraq will be remembered for.... hasn't happened yet.
Somebody knows a hell of a lot more than you and I do.
....... everybody thought Iran was up next. Back then I said Pakistan is next. I've been made aware of my tin-foil hat by both the fool on my right and the joker to my left.
Of course it isn't getting any easier to unentangle with the Obama administration tying in new strings and pulling the mess tighter. Bring OUR troops home NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! And for Love of all the gods and goddesses bust Petraeus and Odierno to privates and send their worthless asses somewhere where they can't screw up anymore! Americas troops deserve better!!!!!!
Im glad Obama is not going to send 17,000 more troops into that god-forsaken region. Oh wait, he is. D'oh!
it might be helpful to talk more openly about the pipeline and where all the smack is going.
because they probably don't hesitate to talk about this stuff over there -it's probably how the taliban got back in power in the 1st place.
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