Economic Crisis Or Climate Crisis, Must We Choose?
McCain and Obama debate the economic crisis' effect on national security.
We're already in a situation that no matter what gets done, the economic meltdown is going to drag a lot of people worldwide under. We're in the same situation with global warming - in that case quite literally. Now Republicans and their energy lobbyist friends are saying we're going to have to choose which one sinks most.
As one Republican senator put it, the green bubble has burst.
"Clearly it is somewhere down the totem pole given the economic realities we are facing," said Tom Williams, a spokesman for Duke Energy Corp., an electricity producer that has supported federal mandates on greenhouse gases. Duke is a member of the U.S. Climate Action Partnership, an association of businesses and nonprofit groups that has lobbied Congress to act.
What they have the axe out for is "Cap and Trade", a policy plan whereby companies either reduce emissions or pay to pollute. The energy industry, of course, hates it - and now wants permits to pollute to be free. Their vest-pocket representatives on the Hill already have such a bill in the works and it's sponsored by two Dems - Rep. Rick Boucher, D-Va and of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich. Even that's not good enough for House Republicans. Oklahoman wingnut Inhofe says "The current economic crisis only reinforces the public's wariness about any climate bill that attempts to increase the costs of energy and jeopardizes jobs," while Texan Joe Barton says even the Boucher-Dingell bill could lead the country "off the economic cliff."
Other Democrats, however, see a cap-and-trade bill — and the government revenues it would generate from selling permits — as an engine for economic growth. Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama supports auctioning off all permits, using the money to help fund alternative energy.
"If you see this as a job creation opportunity for the U.S. to develop the products that are then sold around the world, then you should be optimistic about what the impact of passage would mean for the American economy," said Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass.
The energy lobby is apparently quite willing to cynically sacrifice lives to its members own pocketbooks, just as the financial sector is. Both are also willing to sacrifice national security on the altars of their own greed too. It's not too long since a Republicans were trying to sink the production of an NIE on the national security implications of gobal warming - even after a Pentagon report in 2003 (PDF) and a government-funded thinktank of retired military leaders in 2007 both called climate change a pressing threat to national security. More recently, even once-was-neocon Francis Fukuyama admits that the financial meltdown will have massive negative implications for America's place in the world and governments worldwide are publicly worrying about its effects on geopolitical stability.
Of course, we've seen this kind of corporate selfishness before - from the military/industrial complex Ike warned about so accurately. It's become obvious that the problem is any too cozy corporate/government symbiosis. Such relationships are bad for We The People, end of story.
Crossposted from Newshoggers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kqmNTk6ls0
is to let corporations fail and to let buyers in an open marketplace pick winners...such as manufacturers of green cars, homes, and buildings.
The Bush-Paulson plan is one of government's picking winners.
A losing proposition out of the gate.
Amazing that the most capitalist country chooses the mot non-capitalist means to address problems.
Capitalism works, in a rough way, so long as government does not weigh in on one side or another.
The Bush-Paulson plan spells disaster.
Like Dow 8900, or whatever?
I do.
I'll like Dow 4000 better.
And the revolution that will follow.
Every crisis is an opportunity. Those who fail to see that are doomed to failure. Like Bush and 9/11. Walking softly we could had led the world peacefully into a new millennium with widespread international support. Instead we were told to "go shopping" while our allies were lied to and threatened and new enemies were made.
There are no words sufficient to describe such ignorant arrogance on behalf of the self-interested.
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Of course, America doesn't have a Political Crisis...
... NO?
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"Senator Obama was wrong about the surge"
But he was right about the war!
but now i figger, with only one set of grandparents, likely they'll be born with gills and webs between their six toes...
I'm not a big fan of Cap & Trade myself. There will be too many loopholes for big polluters to get around and they could trade with corporations that don't leave a big carbon footprint. A much better solution is to tax carbon emissions. Of course that will have to be rammed down the throats of big business, who cares?
cap and trade is not necessarily the best answer but it has been substituted for a more direct carbon tax.
i recommend people read this
http://www.carbontax.org/issues/carbon-taxes-...
and this
http://www.pewclimate.org/press_room/opinion_...
To *both* fix the economy *and* combat climate disruption (and live healthier lives) we must take the oil out of our food:
Michael Pollan: Farmer in Chief
An integrated solution.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
You guys not get the memo form eco authoritarian HQ ? you're not supposed to call it "global warming" it's new name is "global climate change" it's a catch all because there is no evidence that we're heading for a warming, in fact, some scientists are saying if anything, it's going to be a cooling .
"global climate change" is the lefts terrorism card, both sides need something to keep everyone shit scared , the right use the Brown people, the left uses scare mongering about the climate .
Andy,
Tell that to the Arctic Ice Shelf...
Even if global heating were not really happening, where's the harm in erring on the side of caution?
I mean, since we are pulling crap out of arse by citing "some scientists" right?
I believe, especially in the "Information Age", we must understand that we are the stewards of all life on Earth. We have a moral responsibility to leave the planet in better shape with each generation.
Instead the world-wide economics of greed is destroying the Earth. With the U.S. leading the charge, we now have over a billion people in China and India clamoring for cars, cell phones and the lifestyles the West enjoy.
The planet is being grossly mis-managed as to valuable resources, pollution and habitat destruction that is resulting in almost daily extinction of some species of animal, plant, fish etc.
I believe this world-wide economic collapse is "the canary in the coal mine" warning we need as a human race to warn us that it is time to re-think the way we live.
Now is the time to make an evolutionary leap in consciousness into, as Einstein said, "A new way of thinking."
Einstein: "The splitting of the atom has changed everything, except man's mode of thinking. Thus we drift toward unparalled catastrophe".
Jim Kunstler (Kunstler.com) understands that we need to take an entirely different approach to the way we live day to day, especially considering the effects of "Peak Oil".
I give a resounding vote for the environment over the economy! Not just for myself, but for all those future generations who are without a voice at this moment in time.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
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Money as Debt...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050...
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This 'we can't do both' propaganda was one of the perks of republicans robbing the treasury from the outset. We can't address global warming, we can't have healthcare, we can't do anything that must get done because we can't 'afford' it now that rethugs and their corporate gang members have stuffed their pockets with our money. Fuck that. Tax repugs, tax their supporters, tax their coporate masters. Seize their assets, sell everything that they fucking own.
Question: 'How Will the Economy Affect U.S Ability to Achieve Peace in [sic] World?'
It is a false premise.
The US is an aggressor nation, it has no intention of achieving peace. War profiteering requires wars, little wars, big wars, cold wars. Any sort of war that generates war profits is a good war for the profiteers.
They are in control.
Nothing will change that. Obama has already said he wants to increase the military. If he said he wanted to shrink the obscenely bloated 'defense budget', they would not let him in power.
It ends with bankruptcy because we have been borrowing the money.
Any politician that told the truth that we need massive tax increases to pay for what we already borrowed would disappear like a stone in water.
'Economic Crisis Or Climate Crisis, Must We Choose?'
The US economy is predicated on fanciful accounting. Unemployment is more like 11%, inflation is way over what is stated.
COOK THE BOOKS. That is how we get the world to keep lending us money.
The Banks all knew the crap that they had on their books but they concealed it.
Paulson knew what was on the books and where it would lead, he is one of them.
They brought in PHYSICISTS and MATHEMATICIANS to cook up these financial instruments that not even a rocket scientist could understand.
It was done for deception. It was a Ponzi scheme. They knew the jig would be up. They have been sitting on it for months but rather than have public hearings of the best minds in the country to actually know what was happening, they dropped it like a bomb before the election.
It is the greatest heist in the history of the world that may yet go completely wrong.
The other hand the climate crisis is inexorable. I am rather pessimistic that we human beings are clever enough to reign in our bad habits in time.
Leave us poor Mathematicians and Physicist out of this one!
Economist were able to make this mess all on their own, thank you very much!
I don't mean to besmirch Mathematicians and Physicists in general, only the ones referenced here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wFFCtx7UhI.
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Alice,
You mean like this...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rZdAB4V_j8
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I don't know about that one, it seems to be Zen like and requiring some external explanation.
Try this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ruh746FHHU&fe...
here we go again with the climate broohaha. There is a movie readily available on video.google called The Great Global Warming Swindle. I recommend anyone who is interested in climate change to go check it out.
It's a full length documentary and features prominent scientists from numerous fields as well as those who were formerly of the vaunted IPCC and do a good job going over the amount of politics and money involved in this issue. And no, Shell, BP, Chevron, etc. play no role in this whatsoever. Questioning global warming is not heresy and also does not mean one works for big oil. I'm sorry but real life is not quite as black and white as that.
... the best the righties can come up with are propaganda hit-pieces.
And in the interest of intellectual honesty, you should have known that piece of crap has long been discredited (I mean half of the so-called "experts" in that piece of shit film hold made-up positions fre crying out loud).
http://www.durangobill.com/Swindle_Swindle.html
Their motto is ‘Look Backward,’ and their watchword is. ‘That which has never been, cannot be.”
I highly recommend his Newsweek piece. Sorry I have no link, get off your lazy ass and look it up.
He implies what I have long felt: ideologies tend to suck ass when taken to their logical extremes. But how are we to talk to each other when we cannot simplify our minds into sound bites?
it's linked in the OP
The best way to combat the climate crisis, is stop buying all that crap you don't need, take the bus/ride a bike/walk, and be a smart consumer. Governments don't have the will to do it: they are owned by corporations.
With everyone "going to the poorhouse", this may happen regardless. People won't have the excess loot to browse Wal-Mart any more, and maybe not enough to gas up, to get there.
far left loon >.<
Never fear! McCain will solve the economic and climate crisis by "Forming a committee".
Yes we are in an economic meltdown, but that in and by itself is no excuse to put off making necessary changes that will reduce the effects on our climate.
As the weather continues to get more erratic with the increasing severity and frequency of storms causing more damage to businesses and homes the costs are sky-rocketing.
While we still have a chance to stabilize the weather pursuing green energy will address job creation, stimulate the economy and keep further potential damage-costs to a minimum.
Unless both are taken on together it won't matter how much money the energy companies make because they will, like the rest of us, suffer economic and personal damages.
We need smart innovative people working on policies and legislation that have everyone's best interests at heart. If that means less profits for awhile so-be-it.
We need twenty-first century advant-gard, sensible and pragmatic ideas that lead to solutions. The past has run its course. But if we continue to make the same choices expecting different results everyone loses.
Our window of opportunity is fast closing.
We must do something now, otherwise recovery may not be possible.
This is an example of a posting that gives a poor name to C&L in some circles. The author of this posting is obviously ignorant of energy, energy markets, and carbon.
I work as a trader in the power sector for a firm that is an advocate for carbon caps. Imposing a cap and trade regime in the US will have costs. I believe that this is a good thing. We need to price the negative externalities into the cost of power generation. This means that the negatives from coal fired generation need to be captured in the price of this generation. Coal is “cheap” but that is before we look at the cost of fouled streams, lung cancer, deaths in mining, mercury emissions, and acid rain. All of the costs that I mentioned are not reflected in the price of coal, and I neglected to mention another one, CO2 emissions.
Cap and Trade basically is a market mechanism to assign the right to pollute, thus the externalities to a producer at a cost. This will mean higher bills for many people. Right or wrong, this will cause the price of power to increase and that cost will ultimately be borne by the consumer. Many people will have no problem paying more for power but there are a lot of people out there who would have a hard time in the current economic environment.
While it is convenient for the author to lump every one under the label of the energy industry but that is a disservice to the readers of C&L. There are many firms in the energy industry who are waiting for a real carbon cap program to take hold. Why? A carbon cap program would raise the cost of fossil generation and make the returns from the investment in renewable and nuclear more profitable. There are a lot of projects out there right now on hold since they cannot compete with “under cost” fossil generation.
Politicians are going to have a hard time selling voters that they need to pay more for the energy they consume but this is what needs to happen in order to change behavior and incentivize investment. The author’s knee jerk reaction to a real problem without real substance does not really seek to inform.
It's always been a tactic of the opponents of fixing global warming to paint the climate and the economic factors as being mutually exclusive and inherently antagonistic pathways. That's a bogus argument. Green technologies would likely create millions of high-paying tech and industrial jobs, not to mention bring huge opportunities to create an entirely new manufacturing sector. These bogus arguments usually come from think tamks that have been directly financed by the oil, coal and energy companies, who are only interested in maintaining their hegemony over energy. How controls energy and access to it, has real power.
This is just more opportunism by a bunch of thugs who have already proven that they don't give a shit about the country, they don't give a shit about the world, and they don't give a shit about the well-being of future generations, including their own blood descendants. It is getting to the point where their continued obstruction is taking on the qualities of crimes against humanity.
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