Mumbai: Institutional Paranoia And Obama's Foreign Policy
By Cernig Friday Nov 28, 2008 3:00pmThere are a lot of conflicting reports coming out of the Indian subcontinent right now, and no-one seems to have told their right hand what their left hand is doing. For instance, The UK's Telegraphreports Vilasrao Deshmukh, the chief minister of Mumbai, saying that two British citizens were among the terrorists who first attacked Mumbai two days ago and who are still being winkled out of their positions by Indian special forces- while elsewhere the Mumbai Police Commissioner Hassan Gafoor is being quoted as saying "We have found nothing to indicate they were British."
That confusion extends to speculation about who is to blame, although India seems to be prematurely certain. Pranab Mukherjee, India's Foreign Minister, has said: "Preliminary evidence, prima facie evidence, indicates elements with links to Pakistan are involved." India is stopping and searching Pakistan-flagged merchant vessels, yet the best indications are that the terrorists came ashore from Indian fishing vessels. Rather than admit it might have an indigenous terrorism problem, which would open an unhappy can of worms about tensions between militant Muslim extremists and equally militant Hindu supremacists, the Indian government is stretching as hard as it can to implicate Pakistan. Their working theory is that these Indian boats were hijacked off Pakistani shores - yet they've no evidence for that at all.
Analysts also say that the sophistication of the attacks point to training outside India, and Pakistan is India's favorite venue. But there are also Islamist terror camps in Bangladesh, where the 10,000 strong JMB group receives ample funding and arms from sympathizers across the Muslim world. Even in India, a massive country with large rural areas under-patrolled by police, Islamist terrorist camps have been found in the Karnataka jungles of the Southwest. The Maoist Naxalite movement operates in thirteen of India's twenty-six states and is a robust organisation with anywhere up to 20,000 members. In April 2006, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh called the Naxalite threat the “biggest internal security challenge ever faced by our country.” There's plenty of indigenous terrorist training capacity, not all of it controlled by or even backed by Pakistan.
However, institutional paranoia is the defining mental state of Pakistani-Indian relations. One of the big stories right now in Pakistan is about official claims that India is planning to destroy Pakistan by thirst, using dams on the Indus to deprive Pakistan's population centers of water. Rumor has it that, when Pakistani President Zardari recently offered to commit Pakistan to a "no first use" nuclear policy in a broadcast to Indian TV, he infuriated his military leadership from Kayani on down. Indian finger-pointing will not have defused their anger.The Indian and Pakistani governments have said that the head of Pakistan's ISI intelligence agency has agreed to to go to Indiato share information, at India's invite. However, despite the PR spin of Zardari's civilian government it's in no way clear that the dog yet wags the tail when it comes to civilian control of Pakistan's military and that visit might yet not happen in such a hostile atmosphere - which Indian politicians will immediately see as a sign of guilt.
Both nations' militaries have defined themselves in terms of their rivals since the two states separated and there's little real sign of that abating. Despite American VSP received wisdom that two US allies will never war between themselves, neither the Indians nor Pakistani's see things that way. An op-ed in The Asian Age newspaper back in 2006, following the massive Mumbai rail bombs, made it very clear:
There is a reality about India-Pakistan relations that sudden bonhomie cannot wish away. The reality is decades of distrust and suspicion, nurtured and cultivated by vested interests that include governments in Pakistan and political parties in India. The Hindu-Muslim angle remains the cornerstone of this distrust, as does the deeply embedded view that Islamabad and New Delhi can never really wish well for the other. Both governments are willing to lie down and be tickled endlessly by Washington, but when it comes to each other, every word is dissected and every action viewed under the prism of dislike and intolerance.
That op-ed is no longer online, but I quoted it last in 2006 post in which I argued that willfully ignoring this dynamic of paranoia was setting the U.S. up for it's next foreign policy disaster.
The incoming Obama administration (and my friends at the Center for American Progress) seems to have learned nothing from the Bush administration's mistakes in this regard and is set to perpetuate them. There's a massive helping of "pony plan" in Democratic plans for the region. The NYT today explains the idea thus:
Reconciliation between India and Pakistan has emerged as a basic tenet in the approaches to foreign policy of President-elect Barack Obama, and the new leader of Central Command, Gen. David H. Petraeus. The point is to persuade Pakistan to focus less of its military effort on India, and more on the militants in its lawless tribal regions who are ripping at the soul of Pakistan.
A strategic pivot by Pakistan’s military away from a focus on India to an all-out effort against the Taliban and their associates in Al Qaeda, the thinking goes, would serve to weaken the militants who are fiercely battling American and NATO forces in Afghanistan.
And Reuters correspondent Myra MacDonald adds:
...the argument is that the cause of instability in Afghanistan is in Pakistan, and that Pakistan in turn will never fully turn against Islamist militants as long as it believes it might need them to counter India. Since Pakistan is nervous both about the growing power of India on its eastern border, and about rising Indian influence in Afghanistan on its western border, the best way to calm the situation down, so the argument goes, would be to persuade the two rivals to make peace.
It was always an ambitious plan — getting India and Pakistan to put behind them 60 years of bitter struggle over Kashmir as part of a regional solution to many complex problems in Afghanistan. Have the Mumbai attacks pushed it out of reach? And if so, what is the fall-back plan?
Even before Mumbai, Obama's plan was looking like it might fall apart. Before reports from Mumbai had begun to surface, the Indian foreign minister, in a joint press conference with his Pakistani opposite number, had poured cold water on an important facet of the plan:
On Jammu and Kashmir, Mukherjee rejected any third party interference, when asked to comment on the reports that the US president-elect was mooting to appoint Bill Clinton as his emissary to settle Kashmir issue. "There was no question of the intervention of third party. Kashmir is a bilateral issue between India and Pakistan. It is part of composite dialogue process," he stressed.
Still, it remains true that Pakistan is the true "central front" for international terrorism. Every single major Islamist terror attack in the West in the last decade has had links to Pakistan. Bush's policy of hiding the truth and appeasing Pakistan's military dictator while fuelling a regional arms race by selling to both sides didn't work. Invading Pakistan is a non-starter. If any plans to foster an Indo-Pakistan thaw are unworkable because of deep-seated paranoia and anger - and I believe they are - then I personally have no idea what to do. The thing is, I don't feel confident that anyone else does either. Obama's plan, born from think-tanks like the Center for American Hope, always felt to me like a case of "we have to have a plan that stresses negotiation" rather than any deep seated conviction that such a plan would work.
The intertwined Gordian Knot of Afghanistan-Pakistan-India has no easy or obvious solutions, and is essentially uncuttable by Alexander's method while two of those three are nuclear powers. The US and the West will be working hard at it for decades, and there's no clear hope that even then it will be soluble. Imperial Britain's "divide and conquer' policies for its former dominions, decades of local tit-for-tat provocations and short-term thinking from successive US governments haven't done anything except tangle the knot further. It's a problem for the world comparable in scale to that of Israel and Palestine, but gets far less attention - and it's still the venue for the most likely next American foreign policy disaster.



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Mmm...maybe I should get some Indian food tonight.
Oh...that's right, I don't earn squat.
Pakistan denounced the attack yesterday. And made it clear they don't want to be blamed for it.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
He was criminal in the invasion of Iraq.
Is it just me, whenever I see my glyph on several comments in a row on the thread, it looks like a bunch of spiders?
spiders is a stretch...
India and Pakistan are having serious issues. (duh) This looks more like a well trained and funded blowback generation mission to me. Operation mongoose with more planning. I really hope They don't go to war over this crap. Maybe they learned a lesson from our 911 premature response. I'd like to know who is whipping up hatred over there, follow the money. The rampant racism going back and forth is a side effect in my opinion.
3 in a row indicates you are very alone
i blame myself for all the times i cursed out those sobs
n/t
This obviously an issue most of us are ignorant about. It is usually what we are not paying attention to that bites us in the ass. Unlike issues related to Israel and Palestine and Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan lack of coverage of issues in India (and elsewhere) have once again left us in the dark as a nation when it comes to the source of our next international catastrophe in the making.
oh yeah and he is to blame for the dinosaurs going extint. you didn't know that? we can't do much to affect the reaction of people to a new president though.
Your suggestion that "the Indian government is stretching as hard as it can to implicate Pakistan" rings a little hollow given the ISI's covert support of many 'indigenous' groups. Obviously there's a limit to how comprehensively you can treat the history of terror attacks in Mumbai in a blog post, but no mention of D-Company, Dawood Ibrahim or, indeed, the Mumbai Encounter Squad?
This is in no way intended to suggest or promote an equivalence, but the tactics and methodology of this terror attack reminded me of Operation Spring of Youth. (Infiltration from the sea, small arms, shock and awe...)
If actual hard evidence appears supporting any accusations I'll be the first to say so. If you look back at my history of posts here at C&L I've often had debates (hi, Peter G and AlexDem) about ISI involvement in Islamist terrorism, and I'm usually the one saying they have far greater infuence than the West credits them for.
If anything happens in Mumbai, Ibrahim's D-Company is automatically a suspect. And there's no doubt the ISI are sheltering Ibrahim in my mind. But in this case I've seen nothing to suggest their involvement as yet. So far, there's plenty of evidence to suggest a primarily indigenous effort inb these attacks. Sure, the Deccan group probably gets some aid from groups sponsoired by Pakistan. Unfortunately, the nature of terrorism nowadays is that its all connected by a network of "you rub my back" contacts and State sponsors don't always have complete control of their proxies. For instance, evidence suggests it was the IRA who sold plans for IED's to half the worlds militant groups and thus to Iraq via Hezboullah, which cut out Iran on the deal even though Iran sponsors Hezboullah.
Regards, C
Wow. Thankies for your quick response. Thanks also for pointing out that international terror makes for strange bed fellows, though given that(e.g.)drugs are an easily transportable and convertable resource for those that care little for for the sanctity of law or life, these intersections between criminals and true believers probably shouldn't surprise us.
You're obviously a guy/gal(?!!) who knows their stuff so what's your personal take on this?
Assuming the Deccans are a new indigenous group, can we discern anything from this change in tactics away from bombings (suicide or remote)?
Does the highly co-ordinated nature of the operation point to outside backing?
Does the (now confirmed) specific targeting of UK and US passport holders along with the Jews at the Chabad Lubavitch centre suggest a extra-territorial connection or (as I suspect) an attempt to link their cause to a wider Jihad?
Love to hear your opinion.
Definitely a guy.
The Deccans seem to be a new name for an amalgam of indigenous Muslim militant groups. They may well have ties to the LeK but it's by no means clear that they're a rebrand of that group. There's also a flourishing Maoist insurgency in rural India, the Naxalite movement, which is tens of thousands strong and which advocates exactly the kind of tactics seen in Mumbai. Islamo-Marxism isn't exactly a new phenomenon (e.g. the anti-Iranian MeK group) and it appears to me that expertise and training could have just as easily been provided by the Naxelites. All terrorist groups are in some way connected and its in the nature of the beast that national governments downplay that connectedness to concentrate on finger-pointing at other, rival, states. The analogy I drew with IEDs in Iraq is, I feel, a very apposite one. Intelligence agencies see what they want to, filtered by their own institutional prejudices.
I would tend to go for an Occam's Razor explanation of simple interconnectedness in the absence of concrete evidence of a state actor's conscious involvement - and anonymous Indian officials don't countas such evidence - they've an agenda to grind and if they were certain they wouldn't be anonymous but would be holding briefings to the media, showing material evidence.
Regards, C
However, many people are thinking that the Deccan group is really just LeT in a new form, which is most likely, as those Pakistani groups, once declared illegal, tend to switch names with some frequency in order to stay on the "right" side of the law.
Exceptionalism is that we tend to situate ourselves--our interests, our national prestige--at the center of every event anywhere in the world.
Almost all terror is local.
I don't do this often enough, but I find that to learn what's happening in the world outside North America I tune into BBC World News........it comes with my basic cable, but I would pay to get it. They still have reporters all around the world and they report the news in a frank unbiased refreshing manner. It is a real shock to see the way they report stories about the U S and Canada, many I never see on the U S or Canadian networks or cable news.
Also the CBC is a lot better than the the U S networks and cable news channels in the way it reports the international news, it's just they don't have as much as would like.
I think that both are available on the internet if you don't have the options watching on the tube.
and CBC is not bad either. Both networks do great documentaries too. It's a nice change from the constant lies and drivel on the US networks.
What? What is all this BBC, CBC, XYZ? I get my international news from Bill O'Reilly.
You might want to do a little channel surfing, Captain Kangaroo.
Explore uncharted waters, as it were!
How about webpage surfing. everything on major TV networks should be suspect.
you are correct. I like to watch 'the TV news' every once in a while just for kicks.
I've learned over the past eight years that if the major TV networks say something is true, it probably isn't.
I shot you guys an e-mail as well, but I wanted to let you know that they have recovered one of the ship's captain's body, as well as a couple of bodies of crew members. This was a legit high-jacking, and not indicative of India trying to sweep and indigenious problem under the rug.
They are most likely incapable of dealing with the scope of the internal security problem, but this was a real high seas highjacking. A SAT phone was recovered as well as maps of Mumbai on the ship in question: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/1...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Hija...
ID
Bush has personally attested to his belief that "I'd like to be a president [known] as somebody who liberated 50 million people and helped achieve peace," link Don't all mujaheddin respect what Bush has achieved for them? Does this mean the terrorists are in the last stages of total desperation and about to collapse and peace is at hand?
We are seeing 'Mission Accomplished' Bush style, after two wars, 4300 dead troops and a trillion dollars wasted, Americans being murdered for their nationality in foreign lands.
India has a big problem. Its population is becoming very nationalistic (like China) but unlike China its population is more diverse and history of more intense communal tensions. Hinduism itself did not exist few centuries ago and is a product of modern narrative based on colonial legacy.
"Hinduism did not exist until a few centuries ago"? Hinduism has roots 8000 years old. Where are getting this nonsense from?
It is not nonsense. Vedic traditions indeed go back thousand of years but nobody called themselves follower of "hinduism" before indian colonization. It is strongly associated with colonialism and nationalism: http://www.newstatesman.com/200208260010
And no one really called it Christianity until centuries after Christ died. I think you are misinformed about Indian nationalism. To be honest, Indians are more likely to harbor a federal (state) identity than a national one, especially in the South. Do some scholarly research about Hinduism. Trace its roots all the way back from the backbone of the proto-Indo-European ancestor. Like every religion, Hinduism has evolved, and I will tell you this, if you are right about Indian nationalism being forged around Hinduism because of colonialism, then it was centuries of Muslim invasion, domination and persecution that has cemented such feelings (if they in fact exist).
Has anybody else noticed how they say they have everything under control and then there a some shots in the background and then they say that there is one guy in the bar having a drink and shooting it up and then all is well and a few minutes later there are some more bombs or flames and a Jewish Center blown up and then everything is well and then there is some more people running for their lives and then everything is well and then the shots are ringing out and blood everywhere and then everything is well and then the bombs start up again and the guy is back in the bar having a drink and shooting it up again. I mean what the fuck is going on over there? And then there are all these reporters and civilians right there on the grass in front of the hotel while the bombs are going off. This is truly bazaar. I want to move there. It is much more real than here.
The Bush administration had maintained (yesterday?)that they had no confirmed information that Americans were targeted or killed. If it develops that there were US casualties, Bush will pray for them.
At least 500 injured but CNN Inernational keeps repeating the tape of the lone British guest who says he was questioned about his nationality. Was this guy even in the hotel? Is he a plant of some sort? Maybe he works for CNN? And I had to laugh when he said he was told to tell the "terrorists" that he was Italian. Does this mean the Italians were never complicit with Bush because they actually issued arrest warrants for the American thugs who used rendition tactics on Italian soil?
Cernig,
I have been a reader of C&L since it first began a few years ago. I have yet to register until now, and specifically to reply to your ongoing commentary. I am sorry to say that your work does not reflect the history of well-thought-out, honest commentary that John Amato, Nicole Belle, etc... have built this blog upon. I take a lot of objection with this last hit piece you do on India. You may say that Hindu extremists are "equally militant", but that simply is not true. While I in no way excuse Hindu extremist violence, how can you say that Hindu's have been more violent toward Muslims than the other way around. Indeed, when you look at the long history of India, it was Musilim invasion and persecution that killed more Hindus than Hindus who have hurt Muslims.
I certainly agree with you that India has a domestic terrorism problem, but consider where the Islamic terrorism in India gets its training, finances and support? Go to Karachi, and you see where the money changes hands, and so do the weapons.
I also agree that Muslims in India have suffered, and many at the hands of Hindus. And given India's size and demographic supermajority of Hindus it would seem that India would never have anything but Hindu leadership. Yet the republic of so many distinct cultures, faiths and philosophies has had a Muslim President, and a Sikh Prime Minister , within six decades of its inception as a state!
I advise you to do the following if you are so inclined:
Read some of the work from Jeffrey Ian Ross on managing ethnic conflict in democracies and then tell me if India has not tried his strategies of peaceful co-optation.
Next, if have the time, actually visit India (I don't know if you already have). Talk to Muslims in Hyderabad, Delhi, Bombay and any where else, and most will say that while there are local grievances, as an ethnic minority, Muslims are given the same freedoms and rights as Hindus and practice their faith without fear.
Finally, even if you don't do any of these things, think about what your work is saying: that in a liberal democracy, minorities' rights should not stop at equal protection under the law; rather that minorities should be above the law and have a right to dominate the majority.
I write this not as a Hindu or a Muslim; as a Pakistani or an Indian, but as someone who has, until now, enjoyed fact based, fair editorial on this blog.
I just started an account to say the same thing, only not as eloquantly as yourself. As soon as I read that India does not admit its terrorism problems are often internal, I knew I was reading from someone who hasn't been there or doesn't read much Indian news. They know they have a problem there.
Cernig never drew any comparisons between Hindhu and Muslim terrorism in his original piece and delineated the tangled skein of Indian political violence with refreshing clarity. I note that your post fails to mention the Orissa Massacre, the 1984 Sikh Massacre, or this story from Gujurat: Independent.co.uk.
I've been following this story since it broke, and this is as good a summation as I've seen.
I have been following it too. And I have to say, it isn't a good summation, because this is an editorial blog and not a news organization (which is cool [ I come here to read opinion, not get my news]). And Cernig did say that Hindu extremists have been "equally militant". How does he measure militancy? Body count? And across what length of time? 10 years? 20? Since India's independence? Or even further into history, unraveling India's colonial past, which included centuries of Hindus being dominated by, persecuted by and murdered by Muslims?
And of course I do concede that Hindus have blood on their hands too. The incidents you speak of, especially Operation Blue Star are and abomination on what it truly means to be Hindu: non-violent and tolerant of all.
Finally, even if you don't do any of these things, think about what your work is saying: that in a liberal democracy, minorities' rights should not stop at equal protection under the law; rather that minorities should be above the law and have a right to dominate the majority.
How did you come to that conclusion? Seems to me that what Cernig pointed out was that Muslims in Mumbai, in the wake of the Babri Mosque riots by the RSS/BJP- and the growth of their Hindu nationalism in recent years- have reason to feel threatened. That isn't justification, it's explanation. If Cernig wrote a piece that laid out the troubles of Germany's Weimar Republic and then said, "So many Germans joined the National Socialist movement," do you think that he would be justifying the Nazis?
What I read was a nuanced piece that spells out the many different possibilities of what happened in Mumbai yesterday.
Andy K,
The explanation is not really a valid causal chain, substantiated by any real research. Congress' concessions to Muslims (and other minorities) in India were a more than a good faith effort to bridge a Hindu Muslim divide in the highest levels of government. Bombay is not a rural setting. It is a cosmopolitan city, where everyday Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, Jains, Buddhists and other work alongside and with each other everyday. And most Muslims do not feel threatened by their Hindu neighbors.
It just seems to me that if one would stake a claim that Hindu nationalism has expanded in the past few years at the local levels, it ought to be balanced with the recognition that there are more examples of cross-cultural cooperation and concessions to minorities in India than extremism (on either side).
Ultimately, Cernig's posts are increasingly pro-Islamist. This is 100 percent okay! I love to see a diversity of opinion, but at the same time, since Cernig has taken to being C&L's foreign affairs commentator, truly nuanced, and less biased commentary would be expected. Where are the posts about Africa, Latin America or Europe? Why almost always only coverage about the MENA region, Islamic South Asia or other Islamic issues?
Cernig is not very informed (I resisted using my first few choice words because I want this to make it) about the subcontinent. You dont understand the difference between riots and terrorism. The gujrat story you refer to is related to religious riots in response to the burning of a train full or children and women by Muslims in the state of gujrat and attacks on temples in Gujrat (akshardham), to call it terrorism is to calling race riots in the wake of Rodney King incident "black terrorism". Secondly BJP/RSS is left by American standards. The Indian political spectrum is very much to the left (the ruling government until recently was supported by "Communist Party of India (Marxist) (CPI(M)) ". BJP wants to create a uniform civil code so that polygamy will stop, stop giving free government land to madrassas, free trips to Mecca every year and government pensions to mullahs. That would make it a very much left leaning party in the US. Mr Cernig claims that the BJP wants to make Muslims second class citizens. I think he pulled this one out of his derrierre... I challenge him to prove it.. I doubt he comes back to read any comments anyway but if he is reading this.. prove to us, show me one iota, a scintilla of evidence that the BJP wants to take away voting rights of religious minorities and whatever else "Second class" means. Read their Manifesto on their website. Show me one scrap of paper where either the RSS or BJP have said it. Is Mr Cernig aware that it was the BJP that nominated Pres. Abdul Kalam, a Muslim, to be the President of India? His nomination was opposed by the leftist because Abdul Kalam wasnt their kind of muslim.. Please dont spread lies about my country..
The OP didn't mention Gujurat, I did. I notice you didn't feel the need to address Orissa or the BJP's attitude to Dalits or (atheist shiver) Christians.
SHOCK: It is possible to see faults on both sides and grieve over these stupid losses all the more because of that.
If you wish to assume that any criticism of your government implies support for terrorists, I suggest you browse the archives of this site. Perhaps you'll learn the perils of the company you seem determined to keep...
For someone who cant even spell Gujrat, you seem to be so certain of your opinions.. Like Steven Colbert says.. you are entitled to your version of opinions not your version of facts..
Heres a shocker for you... I never said dont criticize the Indian government.. I think the Indian government is the first to blame for this atrocity.. My point is dont put American labels on Indian parties because the political spectrum is very very different. I have been on this site for the last 4 years.. so please dont tell me what to do.. I have campagined for Obama since the primaries and have been quite active on this and other forums.... I suggest you find yourself another hobby or perhaps o'reilly is hiring a stalker producer..
Also I cant let your Orissa slur go unanswered.... Do you know the ground realities? I bet not.. you are probably spending your day trading on the internet while you post ridiculous comments on various blogs. The missionaries go to rural and tribal areas and employ a shock and awe campaign to "rescue and harvest" those aboriginal souls. They routinely round up the tribal/local gods (statues or pictures) and burn them in front of the tribals and say.. "Where is your God? Why cant he save himself now". This makes the tribals mad and then there is an uprising. I am not justifying violence but I am giving the full picture. To accuse the BJP of being related to any of this would be to associate the Dems of inciting race riots... Like I said before I suggest you find yourself another hobby or stop posting about subjects you know nothing of...
I seem to recall that Bush sent a lot of American jobs to India. And gee, wow, look at what happened one month before the number one terrorist in the world leaves office. A final, complicit ally got to have it's own 911! I guess India didn't see the light. Arrest warrants for renditionists seem to work wonders.
Wow Centorcitta. There is so much wrong with this post. First of all, Bush didn't send jobs to India. Indian firms innovated beyond their American counterparts and this was a huge incentive for American firms to move operations there. Next, India never supported the Iraq War or American tactics in the War on Terror. If you are condoning violence against innocents then you are a terrorist yourself and ought to get your comeuppance.
This is what happens when the news tries to report the story in real time. They put the story out before they have the facts straight.
who benefits from this horror, and why they have chosen to implement it now.
Cernig are you aware of any subcontinental realities? Pakistan has fought 4 wars with India along with the proxy terrorism war. Last night you posted something more ridiculous and I pointed out the factual mistakes but you never replied... are you a hit and run blogger?
Getting to this post... are you aware that when Vajpayee was shaking hands with Sharif in Lahore, Musharraf was planning Kargil? I will not bother to explain any references since they will be wasted on you, google them if you are interested. The reason why Pakistan is the obvious suspect is because they have an India obsession. After 9/11 they bent over backwards to ensure that India wasn't in the 'coalition against war on terror' or whatever they were calling it then in 2001. Pakistan has perfected the art of proxy war, first they tried it with Khalistan in Punjab and then Kashmir. Kashmir is an integral part of India and will always be (imagine if CA decided to secede from the Union; I think that experiment has been tried before..). The ethnic minorities have been systemically purged since the 1980s (google kashmiri pandits). The idea is simple, to have Muslim domination. India is a leftist secular country (in the american context, India's so called right, the BJP is center left in US) and will always remain so.
Here at C&L and Newshoggers has hardly been pro-Pakistan.
Try "That Pakistan Problem" or "Zardari Gives A Lesson In Glibness".
I try to be noncommital about "true faith" allegiances, however, something that neither the Enticer nor 7MGE appear to have a problem with. I also try not to debate those arguing from entrenched positions of "true faith". I notice neither wants to talk about the Naxalite insurgency nor the feudal oppression that gave rise to it.
Regards, C
Mr Cernig you missed my point, I did not accusse of being pro Pakistani, if anything I accussed you of not knowing what you were writing and I stand by it. You said BJP wanted to create a second class citizenry based on religion, you still have to prove your wild assertion and you have not responded to my pointing out that it was the BJP that nominated a Muslim president.
My second point was labels can not be applied directly. What is "right wing" in India is center left in US. You did not respond to that either.
Now, coming to the "true faith" allegiance babble, I have no idea what you are talking about (stay away from the hookah water).
However, you used a classic O'Reilly technique, you shifted your argument. Now you are talking about Naxalites. So lets talk about Naxalites, because as usual you have brought up something you know little about. I am really disappointed with your posts. C&L has better standards and I have let John know of my extreme disappointment at the lack of facts (or what Olbermann calls 'Factor fiction') in your posts. I will be more than happy to write a blurb for C&Lers and put the attacks in the American perspective. But I digress. Naxalites are the armed wing of the CPI(M) and CPI (ML) (read Communist Party of India, the M&L stand for Marx and Lenin respectively). They were seeking to bring the communist revolution by force, what their colleagues Mr Somnath Chatterje, Surjeet and Yechury are trying to do through politics. Ever wonder why they exist in jungles (I mean real jungles not rural areas)? That is because they recruit tribals who have lost their lands and livelihood not to feudalism but to deforestation and illegal logging and mining. Corruption is to blame not feudalism. Of course mere facts cant get in the way of a quick retort, can they Mr Cernig? The Central government had cornered the Naxal leadership several times (as lately as late 2004) but then let them go because the Congress government at that time was supported by the political wing of CPI(M). Anyway, do you know what Naxalism means? Nihilists.. they want to destroy everything by force. Hope that clears it. For the record I am not afraid of discussing *any* issue with you as long as you dont employ O'Reillian tactics of shifting the subject in every response and are willing to acknowledge the other perspective (as far as opinions go; you are not entitled to your version of the facts, I am sorry).... Stay away from the bong water
"Second class citizens". There's a reason I haven't responded. I've looke dhard at both this post and the last one and it seems to me that I didn't use that phrase, you did. Why should i produce a quote to defend against a strawman?
But, what would you call this: BJP leader Narendra Modi, after the Gujarat riots, warned a crowd that Muslims were trying to erode India's Hindu majority by having many children. "We have to teach a lesson to those who are increasing the population at an alarming rate," he said.
What is "right wing" in India is center left in US. And what is center-left in the US is right wing in the rest of the world. In Indian terms, it is generally accepted that the BJP is ultra-right and has, after a brief fliration with moving leftwards after its last national electoral defeat, now moved significantly more to the nationalist right again.
Naxalites: I bow to your greater knowledge, if such it is. However, both the wiki entry on the group and at least one respected analyst disagree in detail with your summation.
Moslem as BJP presidential nominee: As I understand it, there's a body of Muslim opinion that says when the BJP are in power they get less hassle, as the party doesn't have to rabble-rouse for votes. It thus makes tactical sense, they say, to join the BJP. They might be right. But it remains true that the BJP nominee as PM stood by and watched the torching of a major mosque.
"Faith Based": Like discussing Israel and Palestine, debates about the Hindu-Muslim divide on the subcontinent always brings nationalist or religious partisans from both sides willing to indulge in an endless litany of "they did this first or worst" but entirely unamenable to nuance that doesn't support their P.O.V. In the post above I repeatedly say that Pakistan and Muslim extremists are not blameless in the greater scheme of things. Indeed, if you look at the archive of my posts on the subject, I've been far more regularly critical of their actions than those of India and Hindus and I'll wholeheartedly agree that the LeK and ISI were behind the 2006 Mumbai train bombings. But you don't want to look. There's not a lot of point debating, in such circumstances.
Complain to John if you wish. If he agrees he'll doubtless fire me, which won't bother me one bit as I do this for the fun of it and the day it stops being fun is the day I quit anyway. But I maintain that I try to stay unbiased, nonpartisan and simply use Occam's razor to demand that the simplest explanation, the one that requires the least addition of postulates without hard evidence, is the one that should be considered first.
Regards, C
Thanks for sticking to the points and also appreciate the candor with which you have tried to address the issues. I shall respond one by one but let me state clearly, I complained to John about the quality of the posts not so that he would fire you but so that C&L's quality improves. C&L is bigger than both of us.
Second Class: You posted some Newsweek article and an unnamed source that said that. That is pure nonsense. What the BJP wants is to stop pandering to the minorities and establish a true Indian identity amongst all.
Modi+Gujrat: Please please date the quote you have cited. I dont much doubt that Modi said it, it is a question of when. And for the record, what he said is true. Do you know polygamy is legal in India? And do you know why? Because the IML (Indian Muslim League)'s stated charter says it is their religious duty to produce 10 kids for every Hindu kid so as to drown the country. I think Modi is an opportunist. But I also think that the Indian English media has been the biggest rabble rouser in the whole episode. The native language coverage of the riots was way different than the English media coverage (both Gujrati, Marathi, Hindi, Tamil, Telugu etc.). You do realize that the riots were in response to the brutal burning of women and children by a Muslim mob. Now while I am not justifying violence, I am showing you the causality relationship between the two incidents. Modi is not BJP. And yes LK Advani is very much to the right of Vajpayee but like I said before "right" in Indian terms is left in American. Labels dont mean anything. Just because "Indian circles" consider BJP right means nothing. You called BJP "nationalist"... can you define what that is? Do you know that in many circles, the most anti-national element in Independent India was Gandhi and this same Gandhi has still not received the Nobel Peace prize because he was a "rabid nationalist" for demanding India's freedom. So labels dont mean anything.
Naxalites... The website you showed me is a front website. If I were to rely soleley on the KKK websites, I would totally believe in white slavery, how the whites have been kept down etc. Sorry, the website is not credible. I will not even comment on the wikipedia .. any moron with extra time can edit it, especially a fanatic communist with nothing else to do. Google NEpal's communist crisis and the Naxalite connection.
I am not arguing about your POV, you have every right to. I am arguing facts and want you to sincerely stop using loaded words, words that have a different meaning in US and in India. Example the word Right, Left, Center, Secular all have different meaning here than in India. I would be happy to take this offline with you if you wish.
This brings me to my most important point, overtly trying to maintain neutrality usually manages to dampen reality. This is why Pakistan has been getting away with a lot of stuff. I dont expect you to change your way of blogging, please dont misunderstand me. However, I will call you on whatever I feel is not right.
Again, let me reiterate, I have lived in India, my family can trace itself to the last 200 years on either side. My maternal grandfather's lands were snatched as part of communist land reform. He was landless overnight, died of a heart attack. His lands were given to the so called "under privilged" in 1950s. So what feudals are the Naxalites fighting? My paternal grandfather's ancestral home was burned to the ground in a riot, because he was a Brahmin. So when I see misinformation or half information and I see labels being applied willy nilly, I have to call you on it.
peace
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