Securing the border: Why a fence will never work until we reform the system
You could just about hear the heart attacks happening at Fox News -- home of Republican nativists' favorite rallying cry: 'We have to secure the border before we can have immigration reform!' -- the other morning last week when documentary filmmaker Roy Germano -- whose last movie, The Other Side of Immigration, is a must-see for anyone serious about the subject -- came on to discuss a little clip he made recently.
The clip, which he put up on YouTube, shows two American girls easily climbing over the border fence that Minutemen, authorities and right-wing talk-show blowhards all seem to believe will keep out illegal immigrants.
Obviously someone booked it at Fox because they thought it would demonstrate what a lousy job the Obama administration is doing on border security. But the clip itself actually made clear that the whole concept of using a fence to control immigration is a joke.
As Germano put it: "I thought it revealed that the fence is quite absurd, it's not doing the job it's supposed to do, it's a waste of money, and it also has a lot of unintended consequences."
And then he offered his thoughts on how to really make the borders secure -- and as he explained, the only way we're going to be able to do that is by having a rational system of immigration, instead of the outdated, xenophobic system we currently have in place. This, of course, is when the heart attacks started happening:
GERMANO: If we are really serious about our border security, I think it's in our interest to be monitoring and regulating the immigration flow that is inevitable. There is a multi-million-dollar -- hundreds of million-dollar -- industry out there of human smugglers that will try to smuggle people in. They will build tunnels under the fence, they will get people over the fence.
So we should be investing in an immigration system that actually gives people the opportunity to enter the country legally. The typical Mexican has almost no way of entering the U.S. legally. So we should be expanding the number of visas we offer so that employers can hire the workers they need to meet the labor demand in our country.
SCOTT: All right, y-you have just lit up our chat room, I'm sure, because there are lots of unemployed people in this country who would like to have jobs, and they say, 'Why are we letting people in where there's so much unemployment in America?'
GERMANO: But there are certain sectors of the economy where it's the old, you know, 'immigrants do jobs that Americans don't want to do.' I go to western New York state a lot and I visit family farms who have had ads in papers for 20 years and have never had a native-born speaker respond to that ad. And they depend on immigrant labor. But our H2A visa program, which is the farm worker visa program, only has less than 70,000 visas for 800,000 to 1.2 million jobs that need to be filled on our family farm.
We've discussed this point quite a bit too. The only problem is that Americans are not only in denial about the numbers of unskilled-labor jobs their economy produces, but the willingness and ability of native-born Americans to actually fill them.
Here's the original YouTube clip from Germano:
I sugest a Berlin wall style.....erm...wall, with anti tank trenches, landmines and gun towers. Oh wait, how long is the American border again?
(i made up the anti tank trenches)
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
The freak teabagger in Alaska agrees with you. And I don't mean Sarah Palin.
And the Berlin Wall did SUCH a wonderful job keeping people behind the Iron Curtain. If there is a will, there is a way.
Face it. The reason people escaped Communism was for freedom and to better themselves economically. The illegals coming in on our southern border want the same, to support themselves and their families when conditions in their own country are so bad.
Democratic Party progressive, Vietnam veteran and proud Union member for 41 years
This "secure the border" meme by the Republicans is a stall tactic. They know good and well that the border will never be as secure as they want but they say, "Secure the border before we do immigration reform." Whenever the Democrats bring up immigration reform the Republicans say secure the border first. Maybe the Democrats are in on it.
scanners it would take 1,000 years for another million people to cross. Hey Rudy, there's an idea for you.
It's Kabuki , nothing more . No matter how you feel about securing the border it is obvious that what they are doing is minimal , funding border security , the number of security guards etc , it's as phony as the war on drugs . Love that cheap labor eh boys ? We are arming the gangs and we are arming the drug cartels and hear little to nothing about cracking down on arms dealers and illegal guns / ammunition etc. , the NRA is running the show . Corruption and nothing but , one way or another they are on the take and it's not just the Republicans .
The best feature of the VIRTUAL FENCE is it's built in 'ON and OFF' switch.
It is so perfectly conceived...
Tyson Foods needs some more factory workers...?
Oops. The evening news reports, 'the fence is down...'
Come on up...
Sounds about right.
We used to play that game as kids. We called it "Red Light, Green Light". I didn't realize at the time that the "prize" for winning was picking tomatoes.
migratory animals if not migratory farm workers.
Mart
Yup, it's working too. There's not been one dingo reported in New Mexico.
A Chinese wall would be a great idea. Hell, if they could do it i'm sure America can do it 2kX better.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Yup, that wall has been keeping Mexicans out of China for centuries.
Idd, kept the vikings out of China as well. It bloody works. ;)
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
The Great Wall of China was defeated by the Mongols in the 12th century.
1.) Fine employers who hire illegal workers a sufficient fine so that it isn't financially feasible to hire an illegal. That will dry up the illegals seeking work.
2. ) Reform the $70B a year drug war to curtail and eliminate black market cash flows¹. That will eliminate the drug runners.
These politicians keep constructing never ending spiels to persuade Americans to waste money. The problem can be dealt with in a manner that would save money. But, it is increasing clear, from health care, to war spending, to this border issue , that these politicians aren't looking for any solution that saves the average American any money.
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¹ Black markets cash flows could be done through legalization, which is long overdue for pot, and maintenance prescriptions for heroin and cocaine/crack addicts. I think we could cut our $70B drug war by $69B. Heck, I'd be willing to through a couple of billion towards rehabilitation for those addicts willing to try. And, I think that $70B figure is understated, because a lot of robberies and accompanied stranger murders aren't counted as drug crimes. Prostitution is largely a crime committed to feed black market drug cash flows.
i will take you on a guided tour of construction sites, home improvement work and fast food restaurants...and lets have a chat with the employees
you will be shocked as to how many cannot speak any english at all
wanna tell me that americans wont do those jobs?
oh...they may not want to do them at the rate of pay and lack of benefits the current (possibly illegal) employees are doing them at...but isnt that the point?
and go ahead...grant amnesty to everyone...
reagan did that...and what happened?
the corporatists made sure that a new influx of illegals they could take advantage of, replaced those now legal
and the cycle starts all over again...and the middle class shrinks even more
i still dont get why progressives have turned this into a right vs left issue....its the people vs the corporatists issue
dont believe me? then listen to thom hartmann
there is NO, repeat, NO labor shortages.
There is however a wage shortage. People are attracted to higher wages.
I would pick a hundred heads of lettuce at $2 a head, or $30 an hour. Don't tell me that I would not work in a restaurant, clean a bathroom, or pick a vegetables. The business owners don't want to pay the wage that would attract people.
It's just another convenient lie that is repeated over and over and over again until it is "conventional wisdom" that Americans don't want to do those jobs.
We're not afraid of the work, it's that the pay is so crappy as to incent you to go to other professions for more money.
Sure, someone from Mexico will take a $5 an hour job that's dirty or laborious, but those lazy Americans would not. Of course slave/serf wages is obscene. That's why Americans aren't working those jobs.
Americans need to call out those businesses and roundly boycott in front of them loud and clear.
You are so right. There is a wage shortage. The median income is around 40 thousand and many of the lower half are paid far less than that. That's what the jobs pay. It has nothing to do with being lazy and shiftless.
The fact is that if you can't afford a roof over your head and food and a shower to make it possible to be around other people etc then you can work as hard as you want and you won't have the job, or a life that moves you out of the streets for long.
Surely the rightists would be adamantly oppose to communal living to pay the bills. But they are going to get to be a part of it if they keep worshiping the wealthy and ignoring everybody else.
Well, why don't the fucking employers pay them the same wages as an American? Oh, because they are fucking cheap. It's not the fault of the Mexicans or from whatever country they are. They (the american c*nts) want cheap labour!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
I wonder why people even want to go to America. It sounds like a complete shit country to be in IMO. Maybe back in the days it was a country of opportunity and the "American dream", but now? I rather DIAF!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
Fences don't keep cows in. Why do you thing hey will stop People? Remember that fence in Berlin. Didn't work very well, thousands of east Germans escaped and their Gov't really wanted to keep them in. Oh an remember that other very unsuccessful fence in China, 600 miles long with towers and guards' The mongol hoards got in and kick china's butt.
Imagine a 300 mile fence of in some cases nothing and in some cases a simple barbed wire fence. Boeing is spending 1 Billion of our tax dollars on an elaborate high tech fence to keep America safe.
The answer is simple workers come up for jobs. Big Business in America wants these cheap workers. The easiest way to stop the problem is to go to the source. Every time we catch an Illegal immigrant, check them out, find any connection to a company Corporation anything... then you go to that company arrest the CEO/ President whoever and stuff them in the same cell as their Illegal worker until that worker has been taken care of. Deported, imprisoned, fined or given a chance to become a citizen, whatever. That will only happen a couple of times and big Money/Big Business will stop bringing them here illeagaly. You don't have to be right every time just a few times and the CEO's sitting in a Jail Cell with Pancho for months until Pancho is deported will solve the whole problem. Talk about Free Market influencing the decisions from the top...
Great, that'll keep out the Mexicans
But only if we can import more Germans to work the fence.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
As a kid a made great drawings on my Turbo laser box with Dr.halo of bunkers, planes and underground tunnel structures. I'm willing to sell to anyone interested. Just make me an offer. (i'll remove my retarded tries of making pron tho, that's a little bit to embarrassing)
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhIPvEanMg
Fences are not to keep people out, but to keep them in.
My fellow Americans, you are in prison. No longer can you leave the USA without your passport. It used to be that you only needed it to come back in. If your passport is denied for any reason, you cannot leave the country. If your passport is expired, you cannot leave the country. If the border patrol guard doesn't like the way you look at him or the tone in your voice, you're not leaving.
Freedom...that's for people who own their private jets and don't go through those silly checkpoints and TSA patdowns. Everyone else is a prison inmate.
What's your number?
To paraphrase the late Molly Ivins speaking about the absurdity of such fences; "You show me a 30 foot fence, and tomorrow I'll show you a 31 foot ladder."
is that our masters don't want to pay, that, and the flawed argument presented here.
the flaw? once "whoever" immigrates here and becomes a citizen, guess what? they are then americans, and guess what? they will not want to work for slave wages. mr. neiwert uses circular logic to prove his point, he has no point other than to accuse americans of being xenophobic.
this is not a race war, as much as the extremists on both sides would like to paint it that way, it is a class war and that is where our efforts should be focused.
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