Flu Vaccines Go Back To The Future
This is an amazingly arrogant video in many senses. We're supposed to believe that former Senators Bob Graham and Jim Talent of this WMD Prevention Commission, a government-funded group, put together this snazzy and misleading video about H1N1 vaccines? Or did a Big Pharma lobbying group do it for them? It's hard to say, based on the lack of information as to the actual creator. The basic question is, is there really anything wrong with creating flu vaccine with eggs?
Here's the thing - back in the day, pharmaceuticals making vaccines needed a living medium in which to grow cultures, something that was cheap because they needed to make a lot. Something like... eggs! The FDA not only approved this process for flu vaccines, but also vaccines for measles, mumps, rubella, and rabies. And the thing is, once the FDA approves a particular process and materials for a drug, if you want to update the process and/or materials, you have to start all over with the FDA approval process. That's expensive, especially if you have to pay off the research and development costs accrued.
Today the problem is that no large pharmaceutical firms want to get involved in vaccine production because of the time and cost involved. Many of our vaccines come from overseas plants today. That's part of the reason why the production of H1N1 vaccine was delayed, but to be clear, this is more about an overworked and underappreciated FDA than the need for new production facilities.
So why do these guys want to tell us about H1N1 vaccines? Do they really care about public health vaccines? Or do they really want some attention so that you'll listen to them talk about bioterrorism and their lobby friends can get some business to produce more BW agent vaccines? I'm thinking the latter. And then there's this part of the G-T comedy hour.
The consequences of ignoring these warnings could be dire. For example, one recent study from the intelligence community projected that a one- to two-kilogram release of anthrax spores from a crop duster plane could kill more Americans than died in World War II. Clean-up and other economic costs could exceed $1.8 trillion.
Now in what universe does a small release of anthrax cause more deaths than all those Americans who died in WW2, when bio weapons experts like Bill Patrick have told us that 50 kilos of anthrax would be needed to take out Washington DC? I don't think the intel community endorses this scenario; rather, the G-T team got a powerpoint slide from a certain senior bioterrorism adviser to the former administration that effectively makes an anthrax attack worse than a nuclear weapon.
A source tells me that this study uses a point source generator inside of a city to cause 1.9 to 3.4 million exposed, with 450,000 people becoming ill and 380,000 dead. City-wide decontamination is needed and the projected economic cost is greater than $1.6 trillion. This is just a brilliant case of fiction, designed to get the attention of people who usually wouldn't stop to talk about bioterrorism. I doubt that any intel community expert would give this scenario the time of day - but Senators Graham and Talent don't know that. They just repeat what they've been told.
It's just sad.



Forget Jesus in the spaghetti sauce.
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-10722-Orla...
Aren't these part of the assholes who say "smaller government" and keep government out of everything. Don't these losers say "everybody for themselves"? The hypocrisy of these sons of bitches is unbelievable.
So very sad indeed.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
“One of the simplest explanations is that it’s a laboratory escape,” Gibbs said in an interview with Bloomberg Television today.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206010...
Look at the date of that story. May 13. It's almost five months old.
BTW, nice edit, there. Here's the complete quote:
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
That might be credible if a lab had a genetically identical strain on hand prior to Mar 2009... but that's a proposition that requires some evidence to be worthy of discussion.
The simplest explanation is that two or three existing influenza strains all infected the same pig and did a bit of genetic recombination and spat out this pandemic strain. That's a well understood and relatively common process -- the difference is that this one is nastier than the usual results of that, but not nearly as nasty as it could be.
These jerks should realize that bold advancements have also taken place in the hair replacement industry....
It's called whacking off and wiping the resultant detritus into one's scalp.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSI1pBGKT0w&fe...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
you would think that someone has figured out a way...(besides eggs)...to make the flu vaccine...
Is there a faster way than eggs? ...that we dont know about?
...an ACME genome sequence replicator perhaps? ...yet to be approved by the FDA?
I thought chicken eggs were the only way!!?...but I guess any petri dish would do huh?
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
Make it so.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
These are viruses, not bacteria.
And Petri dishes would scale even worse than eggs.
Bioreactors are the "other" device that people use to culture viruses in, IIRC.
Whether these would work for bulk vaccine production or not, is a question I don't know the answer to. Maybe somebody should find out.
...my vaccine from a warm cute little chicken egg...
...instead of a (big ugly) thermal bio-reactor...
wouldn't you? (or are you the "more cultured" type?)
seriously though (chicken eggs are mini bio-reactors) ...arent they?
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
My favorite petri dish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-5oqs2GTQE&fe...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
That was so bad it was GOOD! I like it.
There is a cell culture vaccine on the market in Europe. It's based, IIRC, on a monkey cell line, although both the brand name and the species of monkey escape me at the moment. The production process is much faster and more certain than the egg-based process currently in use for the production of flu vaccine.
I was impressed by your comments on the earlier vaccine thread
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/indepe...
So, I'm pretty sure you already know that the original Salk IPV vaccine was produced in a monkey kidney cell line (the Vero cell line), and not eggs. There was a short lived controversy over whether the IPV produced from the monkey cell line contained the SV40 virus, and whether the SV40 virus caused cancer in humans. It was quickly disproved by studies, but lives on ad nauseam in the bloggosphere.
Anyway, the production of vaccines from monkey cells isn't new, and other cell lines from other organisms have been tried, such as Drosophila (fruit fly) cells and Picia Pastoris (a type of yeast). They're all promising, but at the moment the virus particles come out with funny glycosylation motifs that make people sick. At one time there was also talk of producing recombinant proteins in bacteria (lacking glycosylation altogether) and expressing them on the surfaces of micelles (oil drops) instead of real viruses. I don't know what ever became of that idea, but I haven't heard it in awhile. There's also some great work being done with naturally occurring peptides that modulate the immune system which, I think , will eventually turn the whole world of immunology upside down:
http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v2/n6/a...
So, there's plenty of new technology in the pipeline.
...to Dr. Crusher. I'm off to sick bay....
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
I'd let her play doctor with me.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Thanks, Jason.
I'm glad somebody is doing the homework on this stuff.
Most of the comments to flu posts that I see here make me want to either bang my head against a wall, or thank all the gods I'm no longer in teaching.
Did you teach astronomy
Seeing that you were already seeing stars?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...to my doorstep...
I still wouldn't take it! (eggs or not)
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
"It was a great time to be an American" in 1955 (if you were White.)
No food stamps, no Medicare...
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
...are growing flu vaccines in ostrich eggs...?
...I betcha you could get hundreds of "doses" outta just one of those baby's!!!
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
If you take vitamin D3 in sufficient dosage you don't need the vaccine.
I'm NOT saying not to get it - but you won't need to. We're not taking it and have told our kids not to take it. We all supplement with vitamin D3.
Extensive information available for this on you tube (search Vitamin D) and generally on the internet (google flu + vitamin D3)
*
Vitamin D supplements don't provide protection against flu virus.
"Deficiency states (note deficiency states) are associated with an increased risk of viral respiratory infections and worsening of pulmonary tuberculosis.
Again, deficiency states. If you are replete in your Vitamin D, there is apparently no immunologic advantage in taking extra, as seems to be the case with all vitamins. Metaphorically, if the tank is full of gas, you can’t go further by pumping more gas into the tank."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1455
And I suppose you have some vitamin D3 supplements on hand you'd like to sell us?
The FDA has done a TERRIBLE job on vaccine safety. It's a case of the Fox guarding the hen house.
The damage my son and many other kids like him endure daily from a one size fits all vaccine program is the result of the FDA's poor oversight and the ACIP's conflicts of interest.
Talent and Graham are just trying to drum up support for their buddies in their profit corner.
WTF are you talking about? Vaccines are far and away the safest pharmaceuticals on the market -- safer than OTC drugs.
What precise damage are you claiming that your son suffered?
when vaccines have been cultured on other materials like monkey kidneys viruses like SV40 have been introduced. Even Jonas Salk admitted this was a problem.
In their arrogance for profit they have forgotten their ignorance of the science and WE are the guinea pigs.
These people have short memories. After 9/11, at the height of the anthrax scare, the flu vaccine was not made available to everyone. It was business as usual, pay up front. In 2004 I had to explain to panicked elderly that there was no vaccine--period. The next year things were still messed up-- This neglect of a system that was already outdated and inadequate leaves us where we are now. Barack Obama inherited a broken public health system and it won't be repaired in one year.
http://kmareka.com/2009/11/01/the-panic-of-2004/
... that it's been around so long that it's unpatentable?
My guess would be that the pharmaceutical companies would just love the FDA to fast-track the approval of a new method that the companies could patent and make the source of a new vaccine their's alone (and, hence, very expensive). Or they'd charge extortionate licensing fees to any other company that wanted to create vaccines that, you know, actually helped people.
... that the FDA doesn't fast-track anything. If I had to guess, Big Pharma wants pressure on the FDA to reduce the process time and effectively "deregulate" some rules on how the FDA reviews and approves production processes. Problem is that Big Pharma can whip up a new drug and start clinical trials, but the overworked FDA can't get around to approving them for 8-12 months, and then there are issues to be resolved, etc etc, and then the profit statements are negative in the meantime.
I believe the former administration crippled the FDA by underfunding it and reducing its authorities. It's long been an issue that the FDA was cutting corners on drug approvals for certain producers because of political pressure from Congress. Now these two want to take advantage of the H1N1 scare and put the screws down again.
It takes years to approve a truly new drug or production process, and I believe that's generally a good thing. Appropriate safety and efficacy studies take substantial time to do. The flu vaccines get in faster because the change from year to year is just a change of the strain used, which requires far less study.
The biggest problems with the egg-based process is that it is a) shit slow and b) somewhat unpredictable with novel strains of virus. This isn't a problem with viruses that don't change much over time like measles. They've been growing the same strain for decades and know how it grows. It is a huge problem for growing influenza viruses, since it changes every year, and not all of them grow as well in the egg culture. For instance, pandemic swine flu doesn't grow very well at all, which is the reason for the underproduction.
I see this post has brought over a few "Anti-Vax" "Woo-Miesters". Educated at Google-U.
And peddling the same-old fraudulent lies.
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