A Tale of Two Quagmires
Gordon at Alternative Brain reads an on-line article about Bill Moyers and agrees:
The Nation talks about a show I watched last Friday evening of LBJ's taped phone conversations and Bill Moyers' commentary. Highly recommended as a history lesson. And a warning.
One point of the program, he explained, was to offer viewers "an insight into the mind of one president facing the choice of whether or not to send more and more American soldiers to fight in a far-away and strange place."
But another point was to offer Obama and his aides a caution that only a few wise and worldly senators provided Johnson back in the mid-1960s -- chief among them Oregon's Wayne Morse, about whom Johnson says on one of the tapes: "outside Morse, everybody I talk to says you got to go in..."
Moyers was not making crude or casual analogies.
"Granted," he explained early on, "Barack Obama is not Lyndon Johnson, Afghanistan is not Vietnam and this is now, not then. But listen and you will hear echoes and refrains that resonate today."
Moyers:
Now in a different world, at a different time, and with a different president, we face the prospect of enlarging a different war. But once again we're fighting in remote provinces against an enemy who can bleed us slowly and wait us out, because he will still be there when we are gone.
Once again, we are caught between warring factions in a country where other foreign powers fail before us. Once again, every setback brings a call for more troops, although no one can say how long they will be there or what it means to win. Once again, the government we are trying to help is hopelessly corrupt and incompetent.
And once again, a President pushing for critical change at home is being pressured to stop dithering, be tough, show he's got the guts, by sending young people seven thousand miles from home to fight and die, while their own country is coming apart.
And once again, the loudest case for enlarging the war is being made by those who will not have to fight it, who will be safely in their beds while the war grinds on (my em). And once again, a small circle of advisers debates the course of action, but one man will make the decision.
We will never know what would have happened if Lyndon Johnson had said no to more war. We know what happened because he said yes.
Video here and transcript here.
Shorter: "You've got to get in or get out. Get in, you're gonna lose. Get out, you're a pussy."
It's kinda like losing a bet on a ball game and then losing it again on the replay. Stupid.
The man has a way with words... I liked it so much, had to reprint it in full.
As Chalmers Johnson says here, it ends with bankruptcy.
And of course, the loss of many innocent lives.
And
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
It's a shame Obama doesn't have the balls to point this out and just bring all our troops home.
Had Johnson done that, we'd be talking about what a great President he was, having gotten us out of a potential quagmire and furthered civil rights legislation even more in his second term. (After which Bobby Kennedy would serve 2 terms.)
I have no doubt the options with which Obama is being presented regarding Afghanistan are:
1) Go in
2) Go in BIG
3) GO ALL IN
Those giving this advice have the most to gain from each of the options. Johnson was also given these same choices. He chose #2.
But Obama, like Johnson, has another choice that isn’t being presented so vociferously. GET OUT!
That the only way they could strike the Japanese was to send the bombers in on a one-way trip, that they wouldn't have enough fuel to get back.
And so, to teach the Japanese a lesson, and to make a point, they sent them.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
They were hoping that the bombers would make it to friendly areas of China. IIRC, a few of them did.
And that raid was meant not so much as a lesson to the Japanese, but as a morale booster for Americans. The Doolittle Raid happened before the draw at the Battle of the Coral Sea and the decisive US victory at the Battle of Midway. The Doolitttle Raid said, "We did something on the fly that everyone thought impossible. Imagine what we can do when we're prepared!"
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Giggety giggety
I'm still trying to figure out what age we're supposed to bomb them back to
They're already in the stone age, they seemed to have missed the age of Aquarius, maybe they should go back to then.
Age Of Aquarius => Tet Offensive
(gibberish that won the war)
I guess we missed it except for the DFH's.
It was supposed to be the age of love & peace...somewhat
understanding!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XYFJUP84lE
Thanks, nickjacket!
We don't have to have war. It solves nothing. Winning is as costly (or more so) than losing. We have had congress moaning about deficit and the cost of the healthcare bill and it all pales in comparison to the cost of these BS occupations.
The CBO est the cost of the Bush hobby war at over $2 trillion for the first 10 years - and the escalation will add to that. Not a blue dog barking, no fiscal con's conning.
It is outrageous and insane to think we can achieve anything except more killing by adding more troops. We'll lose more and we'll kill more and THEN sooner or later we'll have to get out.
Grrrrr - I need a drink
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
But, but, but....
I thought we would pay for it with the profits we'd make off the war in Iraq, you know, since the Iraqis would fund the whole thing????
"The bulk of the funds for Iraq's reconstruction will come from Iraqis -- from oil revenues, recovered assets, international trade, direct foreign investment -- as well as some contributions we've already received and hope to receive from the international community."
Oct. 2, 2003 - Donald Rumsfeld
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
I saw this segment and am glad to see you posting it. I'm left with one question:
Where is the CHANGE I (we) voted for, Obama? You are breaking my heart...
Obama said he'd increase the troops in Afghanistan during the campaign. This is the second such action but it is keeping a campaign promise.
I don't think it is a good idea but I know what he said.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
that the neo-cons want us to leave there so they can install another tin-pot dictator to do their bidding for them.
More lives lost and billions and billions of dollars more for what ? Wall street and the Military Industrial complex , paying off war lords ... buying their " loyalty " , an absolute no win situation , no end to it , just pissing into the wind . And now they are talking about taxing us to pay for it ! Nation building does not work , you cannot change a thousand years of culture and tradition and you cannot make the corrupt go straight and Obama and Co. F'n knows that ! The more time that goes by the less faith I have in Obama ,his economic policy and the advisers he brought on , this decision on the Afghan war ... the smell is all too familiar and it stinks alright , it's the same old shit . We have been had as far as I am concerned , Obama is infinitely better than Bush but we have been had none the less .
Pretty much.
talented spokesmodel ...but I ain't buying the vacuum cleaner.
I'm Boycotting NewsCorp! Heres what not to buy: http://www.cjr.org/resources/index.php?c=news...
the term 'sucky deal' comes to mind.
Afghanistan defied the British Empire. It withstood the might of the Soviet Union and contributed greatly to its downfall in the 1980s.
Now, it's our turn. Insanity consists of doing the same things and expecting different results.
It doesn't matter how many men we bring in, how many planes and bases and warm fuzzies we give Karzai. This war is not one we should be fighting - and I say that not in the sense of 'we should never have gone after bin Laden,' but in the sense of we knew what our mission was, we didn't stick to it, and we started looking at the problem as 'bringing Democracy to Afghanistan'.
The Taliban ain't exactly hurting. While we were pissing around in Iraq, they regrouped. They expanded their base, and formed alliances with a nation that has nuclear weapons. Now, all of the folks who were busy waxing doom-and-gloom about what Saddam MIGHT HAVE HAD are worried, when anyone who was paying attention knew better.
Time to stop this trend towards Green Lantern Diplomacy (i.e. if we have enough willpower, we can make it real) and admit we fucked up.
Thank you Bush I and Bush II for handing mismanaged wars off to your successors.
The Taliban ain't exactly hurting.......... They expanded their base, and formed alliances with a nation that has nuclear weapons.
Can you say "Viet Cong?"
"(Afghanistan) withstood the might of the Soviet Union"....
thanks to billions of dollars in weaponry from the USA and Saudi Arabia.
FIFY
If a drone kills a child in Kandahar, do the crying parents make a sound?
Just a joke I got from my conservative Brother-in-law. It's considered a joke....
Dear Mr. Grim Reaper,
So far this year, you have taken away my favorite dancer, Michael Jackson,
my favorite actor, Patrick Swayze, my favorite actress, Farrah Fawcett, my
favorite comedian, Soupy Sales, my favorite pitchman, Billy Mays and my
favorite sidekick, Ed McMahon.
Just so you know, my favorite politician is Barack Obama.
Thank you
And when MoveOn.org called someone General Betrayus...nevermind.
is intended to be a factual statement
the Betrayus thing was writers block on steroids.
...and now turkey grinder day.
http://i.imgur.com/v6hCE.jpg
Considering all his likes, I'd have to tell you, as an expert in these matters, your sister married a BIG closeted 'mo.
;)
That might shut him up........or not.
a closeted 'Mo?
No Google peeking now.
with a rebel yell
she wants
Mo
Mo Mo
It's the opposite of a Flaming Moe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thum...
Did you know that Camel cigarettes are made from Turkish and Domestic blends?
So satisfying... or the first three heart stents are free!
LBJ room:
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20091118/capt.d280c7...
Look at those pants! The white socks! The highwaters!
And above all the gut! No wonder people got tired of that war! It was just too embarassing to be led by a man who looked like that when he took his jacket off.
And that is why, Oh best beloved, when that last marine is hobbling down the Khyber pass in a long,hopeless retreat, surrounded by Afghan women ululating and sharpening their knives, his last thought will be of Obama. And that thought will be "He was a lousy strategist, but damn! He looked good doing it!
In a few weeks we defeated the Taliban and punished them for sheltering Al Quela. We strike Al Queda and scattered them. Once that was done we should have left. If we are worried about Al Queda we can leave a footprint in Afghanistan and provide the Afgans army with air power. We can also have special force continue to hunt Al Queda and the Taliban to keep them off balance. But we should bring the majority of the troops homes since they all they are doing is providing targets for the Taliban. This is what our troops are doing. They patrol. They get ambush. Some are killed or injuried. Then they do it again and again. We have set the goal for winning at a level that is so high that it is impossible to achieve. Afghanistan will never be a Christian Democracy.
Winning is never having to say "I'm leaving".
WILL be a Chirsitian Democracy if we have to send all them A-rabs to Jesus hisself!!!
obama will send more troops
it is an american thing
ie imperialism
americans are imperialists and dont have a clue they are
who else would support politicans that support a war machine larger than the world has ever known.
no americans we are imperialists and the sooner we wake up to that reality the sooner we stop having these wars for profits.
I have traveled the industrialized world as an consultant and we americans are the dumbest when it comes to world affairs as any industrialized country.
dumbest by a long shot. we actually think we can bring a democracy to iraq and afghanistan.
man that is dumb ok stupid. as a famous person once stated stupid is as stupid does.
that defines americans to a tea.
not only stupid but selfish as we will spend trillions on nation building and will not offer universal health care to our own.
profits over people. the very design of capitalism.
to create a society of have nots with a few very few haves. the haves are smart they know how to make the have nots work for them for pennies. even work two jobs. or three.
as another famous person once stated we have met the enemy and it is us.
now watch someone state if you dont like america move and of course miss the entire point.
support our troops americans that was the cry during the vietnam war. support our troops.
bring back the draft and the wars would end soon. it will wake up the disinterested sleeping college crowd.
send their buns to afghan or iraq and they will come out of the woodwork to protest against these wars for profits.
if the have mores can eliminate the middle class they will have plenty of fools to kill others in third world countries to make the army a career to just make a living.
naw lets call all of our military folks heros for fighting these wars for profits in third world countries.
these soldiers are pawns for the have mores and corp america profits.
anyone that thinks they are there to protect our freedoms has drank the capitalist kool aid.
and well said, researcher.
We will never know what would have happened if Lyndon Johnson had said no to more war. We know what happened because he said yes.
Further, can you imagine an America without Nixon, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Faux News, Limbaugh, Coulter, or at long last, Obama?
We are fooling ourselves if we believe we will not be asking what kind of America we would have if Obama had not expanded the war today.
I remember John McCain saying we could stay in Iraq for the next 100 years. I guess we're on some kind of exit strategy in Iraq now? As far as Afghanistan is concerned, I'm hopeful that Obama took the time to deliberate because of concern on an exit strategy. The "exit strategy" is going to be what I'm going to pay attention to in his speech next week. Two weeks, two years - maybe. Ten years, 100 years, nope.
We has a wonderful ally in this war at the start, namely the "Northern Alliance". Where we went wrong was in telling them to disarm, which they did so, because we were going to turn Afghanistan into another France, and that bungle lies with the previous administration.
Better than the expression bleeding us slowly is it's actual military strategy terminology:
War of Attrition.
My VA doctors keep telling me I need a more attritious diet.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=quagmire+...
I can't see why President Obama shouldn't return the Nobel Prize. It seems he has no concept on how to achieve it...sorry to say. How can we ask young men and women to do 3,4,5 tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and not bring back the DRAFT? The old adage, "iron wears out" comes to mind.
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