Tortured Logic II: or How To Be Tortured To Death
By John Amato Wednesday Jul 01, 2009 8:00amWhile I was away for almost two weeks, the ACLU and many of my blogger pals took to their keyboards and wrote about the many brutal deaths that occurred at the hands of people engaging in torture for the US. The torture issue is horrifying and the longer we get away from the Bush years, the more information the ACLU is able to gather. These documents are, in a word, vile.
The ACLU writes:
Today, several prominent bloggers are writing about detainees who died in U.S. custody, using documents released through the ACLU’s Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. We’re not talking suicide, or death by "natural causes." No, this is death as a result of torture and abuse while in custody. This effort comes on the eve of the release — we hope — of the CIA Inspector General’s report on waterboarding. (You might’ve heard last Friday that the release was delayed.)
At Salon, Glenn Greenwald writes:
The interrogation and detention regime implemented by the U.S. resulted in the deaths of over 100 detainees in U.S. custody — at least. While some of those deaths were the result of "rogue" interrogators and agents, many were caused by the methods authorized at the highest levels of the Bush White House, including extreme stress positions, hypothermia, sleep deprivation and others. Aside from the fact that they cause immense pain, that’s one reason we’ve always considered those tactics to be "torture" when used by others — because they inflict serious harm, and can even kill people. Those arguing against investigations and prosecutions — that we Look to the Future, not the Past — are thus literally advocating that numerous people get away with murder.
Marcy Wheeler focuses on the case of detainee 04-309:
Now I’m no doctor–and I definitely can’t make sense of the cardiac findings. But it sounds like "stress positions," "sleep deprivation," "walling," and "water dousing" are all leading candidates to have caused the death of 04-309.
Drational at Daily Kos zeroes in on one detainee, known as Habibullah, and the circumstances of his death.
Habibullah was being interrogated by the military. Upon autopsy he was clothed only in an adult diaper. Because he was taken from his cell to the Bagram medical facility "dead on arrival" it is likely he was wearing a diaper when he was found "unresponsive, restrained in his cell" (hanging shackled from the ceiling). This is consistent with the nudity and use of diapering during "sleep deprivation" approved by Rumsfeld and described as part of the protocols for CIA interrogation during one technique: sleep deprivation- in which the detainee is shackled standing or sitting for up to 7 1/2 days straight.
mcjoan writes: Accountability for Torture, Accountability for the Dead
Back on May 9, I wrote about the part of the torture debate that has been lost in the politics of Cheney and his effectiveness campaign, and the narrowing of the debate to waterboarding and whether it's really torture: approximately 100 detainnes have died during U.S. interrogations. Some we know were tortured to death.
And as Greg Sargent reports:
CIA Again Postpones Release Of Torture Report That Could Undercut CheneyThe report is called the “Holy Grail” by some Dem staffers because it contains a whole chapter describing the “effectiveness” of torture, which reportedly concludes that there’s no proof that info gained from torture ever foiled any terror plots. It’s also expected to cast new and serious doubts on the legality of the torture program — which means its release could fuel calls for a real probe.
But you’re gonna have to wait to see it. Sorry.
Here's hoping I'm wrong about that and they let the people see what has been done in their names. We deserve to know and the tortured dead deserve some justice. And if we want to just deal in pragmatic concerns, if anyone thinks that refusing to hold people accountable for what happened and showing the world that we can be trusted to civilized at least after the fact doesn't make us less safe, they are out of their minds. This is how countries become pariah states.
The United States went crazy after 9/11 and tortured many, many people, at least a hundred of them to death. It happened. How do we live with that?
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"The only chance we have as a country right now is for Osama bin Laden to deploy and detonate a major weapon in the United States. Because it's going to take a grass-roots, bottom-up pressure. Because these politicians prize their office, prize the praise of the media and the Europeans. It's an absurd situation again. Only Osama can execute an attack which will force Americans to demand that their government protect them effectively, consistently, and with as much violence as necessary."
not one word in this quote is yours. like so many
you just repeat other's crap and have no idea
how to form an opinion. really disappointing.
I think ricky was mocking Michael Scheuer's rant on Beck, not mindlessly repeating it. The quote is heinous enough as it is considering Americans would die in such an attack and even more reprehensible in the disgusting context of so many human beings tortured to death in the name of America over 9/11.
I admit that I could be wrong about ricky's intended meaning. Sarcasm in type is difficult to discern and often comes across as idiocy because the intending meaning is the opposite of what is literally said and there are no non-verbal cues to interpret.
I would respectfully observe that you yourself didn't really offer an opinion "Re: Tortured Logic II: or How To Be Tortured To Death." Like so many others you just attacked another commenter. I'd be more disappointed if it wasn't for the fact that I am getting more desensitized to it every day, which is unfortunate.
I understood that he was quoting someone else. ie. Michael Scheuer, on Glenn Beck's show last night.
Unfortunately, dadams is right. Since he disagrees with the quote it must mean I have no idea how to form an opinion.
I got it right away.
WE ARE A NATION OF WAR CRIMINALS.
I don't know how to go on. I watched this today. I want to pull out my hair. I want to burn something.
But I am a pacifist.
Throw your TVs in the street.
"informed" without TV?
Snark
I have been saying that for years but still end up being surprize again. Or maybe it's just shock.
As much as I will like seeing bush and chenny get their just deserts for all the evil they have caused, I wonder even more about the people that would do these things to others? I don't think they should be given protection for their part. Think about it do want one of these people living around your children or other family members?
Hell do you even want them around you?
If they will do these things to one why not you?
My god people you are supposed to know right from wrong!
This is not a gray area. There are no moral reasons for torturing!
republicanism is a mental illness!
The bannination of any visual evidence of sanctioned murder by legislation.
I guess not suppressing evidence is a crime now.
New Rules;
1 + 1 = Anything but 2
That will be enough torture as the stumbling morons go around blasting off grocery bags full of fireworks stand products. 5 months behind in their bills but they can afford pickup loads full of "noisemakers".
I am ashamed, horrified and enraged.
And "our" government is a directory of mercenaries and hitmen for the corporate oligarchy which calls the shots.
It is only a matter of time before torture becomes routine at your friendly neighborhood police dept.
Let's face it - they've revoked Habeas Corpus, suspended the Constitution via "Patriot Act" and nullified Posse Comitatus.
For our own good, you know.
If only the citizens of Iran would demonstrate in our streets for us.
I gotta get back to my baseball game...
..at your friendly neighborhood police dept"
Look what happened in San Diego yesterday!
what happened in san Diego yesterday?
What is Obama going to do?
Didn't we attack Iraq for breaching a UN resolution?
ever that we would stoop this low. Pandora's box is open and still there are no consequences or actions taken. The more time that passes, the more it becomes apparent that Congress and Obama, are complicit in ALL of this.
There is a bright line here. If no action taken, then they condone all this evil. Period.
..I AM DISGUSTED! At what point does the President wake up and realize what's transpired? At what point does a nation, any nation, stand up in the U.N. (yeah, right) and condemn the U.S.A. as well as instruct its own DOJ to appoint a Special Prosecutor to persue War Crimes Trials against our former administration for what it condoned and against the current administration for what its not condemning. Moving forward? Not likely!
I applaud the ACLU for their work but it is NOT ENOUGH! Are there any lawyers reading this? Tell me - CAN WE MAKE A CITIZENS' ARREST? Tell me, can we petition to get a Special Prosecutor appointed? Tell me, does the "man in the street" give two pshhts that we committed these crimes and because it was against Muslims, who cares? I f-ing care! That's how I was raised; to believe in the law! WE have lost our soul! We are all WAR CRIMINALS! I WANT THE REAL CRIMINALS BROUGHT TO TRIAL and JUDGED for the crimes committed. WTF does it take?
There's no argument any more..just evidence!
Obama is DLC. He made his bed when he ran. look at the way he surrounds himself with DLC/DSCC/DCCC shills and 'moderate' repuglyKKKans.
And you can't make a citizen's arrest in a free-speech zone.
Silly me, I thought when Obama was elected we would finally see some justice and punishment for the perpetrators of these terrible crimes. Are the abuses still being committed in your names? One wonders. The whole thing is horrifying, shameful and sickening.
who was beaten until; the muscles in his legs liquified and was then beaten until his legs burst open, causing him to bleed out? Was that one documented? will there be any names of the torturers released. we are toast as a nation, just corporatized cannonfodder.
..believes there will ever be trials. Their attitude is like, "Well, we're the USA, there'll never be trials!" Great, we above the law. They don't f-ing get it!
the media war on intelligence and avtivism has taken its toll.
"those who carried out their duties [torture] relying in good faith upon legal advice [see, illegal advice] from the Department of Justice ["justice"]... will not be subject to prosecution" -president obama on cia torturers
(bracketed comments are mine)
They are getting away with murder.
It must not be forgotten.
..all good Americans (aren't they?) not calling for trials?
Evil people like KO, RM, et. al. are but they are evil!
Why aren't the Senators and Congressmen in DC and in every state of the union calling for trials? Why isn't every war criminal/citizen calling for trials?
I'M F-ING YELLING FOR TRIALS but maybe I'm naive if I think anyone will ever be held accountable.
overfed, undermotivated and soon tho be totally poor and uneducated. welcome to northern mexico.
The Mexican government outlawed slavery before the USA did, which made it necessary for the US to invade and steal over half of Mexico.
They also refused to make Roman Catholicism the state religion - necessitating an invasion by French troops on behalf of the Vatican.
We'll have a new round of torture apologia BS after the CIA IG report comes out.
Torture murder treason is a cancer that must be cut out from the guy at the top to the guy that mopped up the blood after the fact ,every one no exceptions. We don't want these crazies coming back to marry our daughters now do we?
Off the top of my head I can name six countries whose citizens we took it upon ourselves to torture including a British citizen with wounds to his penis.
An International Nuremburg 2.0, if it's good enough for the Nazi's it's good enough for this crew of the most detached, demented creeps. Make no mistake about it these were Nazi type medical, mental and physical,experiments. Let them have their day in the dock and if found guilty lock them up for life after stripping them of their possessions and citizenship over in Abu Grabh.
TREASON is never a mistake but it's always a mistake not to call it TREASON
What SHOULD President Obama do about this issue?
He SHOULD carry out his sworn duty to enforce the US Constitution and the US laws against torture by ordering HIS Justice Department to investigate and then-- based on the voluminous evidence already in the public record-- indite and try the Bush Administration and their enablers whether Republican or Democrat.
What WILL he do about this issue?
President Obama has already told us what he will do: nothing. He's "looking forward", not backwards (justice is "backwards"). He's continuing the Bush-Cheney US War on Terror. He's following the Bush-Cheney playbook in the continuing US occupation of Iraq. He's expanding the Bush-Cheney US War on Afghanistan into Pakistan-- that alone will require continuing torture at the US Bagram prison and elsewhere. He's arguing for "indefinite detention" of US prisoners and so on.
John Amato knows all this but doesn't mention it. Too much cognitive dissonance as a loyal Democrat perhaps. I don't know.
Obama is administering "victor's justice"-- in this case, the US is the "victor" and victors neither prosecute nor punish themselves.
My heart hopes I'm wrong about all this, but my head knows all this is true and has happened before and is happening again.
are a disgrace to the uniform and 'they' or any American Official should be prosecuted and 'capital punishment' applied where necessary.
I am a Veteran and I can't describe the 'rage-disgust-sorrow' that the 'neo-con nightmare' has turned this Country into the 'local thug'.
the KBR's are gonna walk
the War-profiteers are gonna walk
the murderers are gonna walk
the politicians are gonna walk
the 'techniques' of WAR that United States had in Her history had PROGRESSED this brutality from the middle age 'gore' to the Nuremburg Trials' of WW2 with more and more of the world joining the 'Humanity Club' we started. Evolution being the driving force that was responsible for eventually 'demonizing' the age old practice of slavery, which required WE wash our hands of, but TORTURE has been a Mortal Sin in this Country FOREVER.
God spit on those responsible for this and the NEO-CONS.....
I feel like the people who did this have tainted my own service. I won't forgive them for that.
Playing the victim
Here
Where is the Special Prosecutor?
Where are the hearings?
Where are the investigations?
Where are the subpeonas?
Where are the photos?
Where are the suppressed reports?
I have NO DOUBT that the illegal wiretapping, illegal surveillance & illegal torture carried out by the Bush administration was MUCH, MUCH WORSE that any of us realize.
Of course it was much, much worse than we realized. Unfortunately, we'll never know how bad it was. Most of the evidence has been destroyed and many of the witnesses are dead.
Read all the comments.
As this issue has been swept nder the carpet in Washington, I can no longer respect the USA. It's that simple.
It sounds like Washington wants a complete repeat of South Africa's late- and post-Apartheid history.
First came the euphemisms for murders of those arrested and kidnapped, such as "suicide", "unknown", "misadventure", "self-inflicted", "heart attack", etc. Then came the "truth commissions", except that the US doesn't want to go through the part where the names of the perpetrators are spoken and "forgiven".
Just as I've always thought, nobody wants to admit that the US has committed war crimes.
That term is an interesting euphamism for torture. All stress positions kill, if held long enough. Crucifixion is distiguishable only because it is the best known stress position. Hold any position that stresses muscles long enough and without opportunity to release the stress and the stressed muscles will go anaerobic, which produces copious amounts of lactic acid. It produces agonizing cramps in every muscle in the body, including the heart. When lactic acid reaches a critical point, the heart goes into tetany and siezes with cramps. Death results.
Those who are repeatedly subjected to sub-lethal duration stress positions can be expected sustain irreversible coronary damage. If they don't die, their lives are altered, ruined and shortened. This is all known before the fact, which makes the practice all the more reprehensible. It is well known and understood physiology, and the foreknowledge nullifies all the excuse making about it supposedly only causing discomfort. It is torture. It is inflicting harm on those who have already been subdued and are therefore harmless and defenseless. For just reasons, such practices are considered war crimes or crimes against humanity. The people who authorize and commit such crimes should be recognize and called to accounts as arch-criminals.
Our failure to hold our own officials to the same standard we have applied to other countries officials in the past just goes to show that WE accept our position in the world as the BULLIES of the world, and have no conscience at all about our actions.
Truth ----- if any news reporter got too close to the truth in this regard and attempted to tell the American people what they actually condoned, they would be killed by our own government. The CIA, the FBI, and probably your local neighborhood watch would be involved, and the knowlege of that event would be suppressed as well.
As Americans, we have every reason to be frightened. OF OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!
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