Denying Collective Punishment In Gaza
By Steve Hynd Sunday Jan 04, 2009 12:30pm
Thanks to Heather for the vid clip
One of the key parts of Israel's well-planned media narrative in Gaza is that they are carefully targeting attacks and that there is no humanitarian crisis there which isn't attributable to the mis-management of the elected Hamas government. President Shimon Peres repeated the claim this Sunday on ABC News "This Week with George Stephanopoulos".
STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, sir, the head of the Shin Bet general security services told a cabinet meeting in Israel today, it's been reported, that Hamas has eased its demands for a cease-fire with Israel. Can you elaborate on that?
PERES: Yes. They made the demand, they made the suggestion to have a cease-fire and open the passages. To open the passages without control means to enable them to bring in more rockets, more missiles, more weapons, more supply from Iran. Doesn't make any sense that we should do it. Because it started with open passages. They could have moved around without any difficulties. We even permitted the supply of money, not only medical supply, money that we have collected to the Hamas. So what do they want, that we should open to them again, to have more supply of weapons and bombs?
We say that they are -- we are not going to. And even today, by the way, one of the passages is open, because there is no shortage of basic needs in Gaza. We take care that medical equipment and food and fuel will arrive to Gaza, even today.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, Mr. President, thank you very much for your
time this morning.PERES: Thank you.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Now for reaction here in the United States, I am joined by the number-two Democrat in the Senate, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, the senior senator of Illinois.
Good morning, Senator. Let me get your reaction right away to President Peres. You clearly saw him, heard him this morning, no cease-fire, no withdrawal now. Is that wise?
DURBIN: Well, it's understandable.
The UN has a very different appreciation of the situation, however.
John Ging, the head of the UN relief agency in Gaza, described the situation there as "inhuman".
"We have a catastrophe unfolding in Gaza for the civilian population," he said. "The people of Gaza City and the north now have no water. That comes on top of having no electricity. They're trapped, they're traumatised, they're terrorised by this situation.
"They're in their homes. They're not safe. They're being killed and injured in large numbers, and they have no end in sight. The inhumanity of this situation, the lack of action to bring this to an end, is bewildering to them."
The UN has been particularly angered at the contention of the Israeli foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
Ging also accused Israel of a campaign of destroying public buildings vital to the administration and governance of Gaza.
"The whole infrastructure of the future state of Palestine is being destroyed," he said. "Blowing up the parliament building. That's the parliament of Palestine. That's not a Hamas building. The president's compound is for the president of Palestine. Schools, mosques."
Now, there are indications that the Israelis are using either cluster munitions or white phosphorus over urban areas, which will inevitably push up civilian casualties and raise allegations of war crimes. Although Western media have been slow to acknowledge the use of such weapons - and Murdoch's London Times even altered its own photo caption to suggest otherwise - some pictures from Gaza clearly show the distinctive multiple explosive impacts from Israeli artillery shells bursting over built up areas.
If there wasn't a humanitarian crisis before, Israel seems set on manufacturing one now.
"When there was a siege, we kept taking about a catastrophe," said Hatem Shurrab, 24, of Gaza City. "But then the airstrikes started, and now we don't even know what word to use. There's no word in the dictionary that can describe the situation we are in."
Update: I've spoken to a couple of ex-military folk and they've confirmed that pictures coming out of Gaza by AFP news service show white phosphorous rounds exploding over and setting fires in urban civilian areas. Meanwhile Haaretz has confirmed that cluster munitions are also being used by the IDF but says they're being used over "open areas". Gaza is a lot smaller than Rhode Island and cluster bombs have a pattern as big as a football field so your definition of "open areas" may vary from the IDF's.
The BBC has a slideshow. here's the third photo.
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must cease its aggression immediately and withdraw to the pre 1967 borders.
US law dictates that money given Israel for weapons can ONLY be used for defense.
This is not defense, this is aggression.
When is the US government going to apply US law?!?!.
Israel is merely pursuing the Bush doctrine, i'm sure.
perfectly alright.
nothing to look at...move along...
If you didn't catch THE hint the supreme court, in 2000, suspended the rule of law until further notice.
and you hand over your home to the native american that it was stolen from
I'm already leasing my land from a Tribal NSN.
... is as justifiable as the virtual annihilation of the native american population. "Greater Israel" and "Manifest Destiny" have much in common. Essential to both is viewing those in your way as less than human.
hypocrite
This is 2009, not 1600 in case you haven't noticed.
Take your bullshit argument elsewhere.
that was the conquering and destruction of 90% of the indigenous inhabitants of the Americans is a tragedy that needs constant remembering and updating.
But when you say : how about if the united states returns to its 1776 borders and you hand over your home to the native american that it was stolen from (sic)
You are talking about events displaced by centuries. There has been some progress in redress such as is possible so distant after the facts.
In Gaza I am talking about events of this very moment.
Comparing the occupation and atrocity in Gaza to the genocide of the Native Americans only serves to make my point.
At least we agree that great crimes are going on.
I agree with you. This criminal agression must cease. Peres can go try and pedal his bullshit to the Hague.
Maybe he and Bush can eventually share a prison cell.
The citizens of Gaza are trapped there. This gives a new meaning to the phrase 'like shooting fish in a barrel'. It is horrible.
Like the good old-fashioned Crusades.
This isn't Saladin's Citadel, it's the Lodz Ghetto.
and where is your outrage about that?
that the Egyptians are the bad guys because they can't afford to absorb the displaced refugees created by Israel's attempt to suffocate the Gaza strip?
The intellectual dishonesty of the run of the mill Zionist boggles the mind.
Trying to use Egypt's inability to take care of hundreds of thousands of refugees in order to excuse Israel's actions, is pretty much grasping at straws trying to find any sort of moral higher ground in order to justify something that amounts to systematic starvation.
From '49 until '67, and the conditions weren't much worse than they are now. A bit less crowded, maybe, but still bad.
Makes you wonder why Egypt didn't want the territory back- after all, they have claims on the territory going back to Mamaluke possession. Maybe it's because Egypt kind of enjoys not being in a perpetual state of war with one of its neighbors.
Quotes from some Israeli Prime Ministers:
"The Palestinians have a homeland - Jordan." - Ariel Sharon
"Drive them out!" - David ben Gurion, on what to do about the Palestinians
"There are no such people as the Palestinians. They didn't exist." - Golda Meir
Ethnic cleansing and genocide if necessary has always been the goal of Israeli fascists.
Do you know how many incriminating quotes I could drudge up from powerful figures who hate and have hated Israel? Why are they never held accountable? Let's face it: we expect more from Israel than their enemies.
Secondly, quoting discredited individuals is somewhat disingenuous, no? For example, Meir resigned after the Yom Kippur conflict. Should we hold the entire US, including Barack Obama, accountable for stupidities uttered by President George W. Bush too?
Are you always so dishonest? Or just deliberately ignorant?
http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm
Or do interviews in newspapers of record, recorded media, and transcripts of Knesset meetings not counts as valid sources in your uneducated/duplicitous opinion?
There'd be no need if Israel had not broken the cease-fire agreement in the first place. Abd for the record I'm sure a lot of us are outraged by that but that isn't what this post is about. This post is about criminal Israeli aggression and lies.
In typical rightwing media fashion, the fact that Israeli has been the first to violate truces and agreements - this one, the "roadmap", Oslo accords, etc. - is whitewashed over or outright lied about.
Israel could be building ovens and the US media would call it "generous housing for the Palestinians".
Uncle....,
Are you just misinformed, a liar, or do merely you pretend to be dense?
Israel's FM was in Cairo a few days before the attack on Gaza. There, Mubarrak, the puppet that he is, agreed to whatever Israel asked of him. In fact, after earning the trust of Hamas for mediating a ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel last summer, Egyptian officials called Hamas, and in a diversionary move, assured them that Israel is NOT going to attack Gaza. Less than 24 hours later Israel started bombing the Strip.
Mubarak, if you know your history well, has been in power for more than 20 years now. His people, the Egyptian people, loath him. But, as dictatorships go, he's got the power. The flow of cash from the U.S. government and the logistical support he receives from U.S. forces stationed in Egypt itself, guarantee his stay in power. If that sounds familiar, it's because the same happens in Saudi Arabia and Iraq.
As far as the Egyptian government is concerned, Israel is "defending itself". Bush even called Mubarak a few days ago to "thank him" for his help.
Meanwhile, Egyptian officials go on TV and claim that they are more than happy to accept the injured and maimed from Gaza, despite credible reports that Egyptian troops have fired on many Palestinians who've fled the bombs and attempted to cross the border.
No exactly!
I call it: Fishing in a barrel WITH EXPLOSIVES.
Just take a look at this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4cYtBmtTFo
Very Shocking images!
I have commented on this matter at some length.
Excellent post. Obama's silence is truly deafening in regards to this catastrophe and speaks volumes to the contempt that he holds the Palestinian people who have been brutally murdered by Israeli bombs and missiles which have been sent to them by the United States. In addition, Israel has made sure that Gaza's food supply has been cut off as well as its water, as well as its electricity, and as well as medications for the people of Gaza. Obama has told AIPAC in the past that he would do anything to ensure the national security of Israel which does not bode well for the physical welfare of the citizens of Gaza. It seems apparent that Israel knows that, unlike the Palestinians, it has a friend in Barack Obama.
will be too busy defending his selections for cabinet in the coming weeks. His selections have all been in the political establishment for years, some decades. Of course they'll have shady lobbyist dealings in their portfolios. Much more important than Israel slaughtering caged Palestinians. Perhaps after January, he'll send Hillary over to dodge sniper fire.
gives you yet another excuse to attack Obama.
I hear Obama was Vince Foster's assassin.
Take your meds.
Same with Hillary's mouth.
Fair and balanced hope.
You decide.
I like Ron Paul's take on this conflict. Show us the money to deal with this while we ignore our really serious domestic crisis.
http://cryptogon.com/?p=6027
Is Ross Perot without the accent or the personal success. It's so easy to talk shit when you run no risk of actually having the power to implement your ideas.
Every Libarchist loves them some looney Ron Paul bullshit.
Including Sen. Durbin in any discussion of AIPAC is a living example of the power wielded in the U.S. by a foreign power.
Sen. Durbin is a Democrat with
withwhom [on edit] I agree on many issues. However, where Israel is concerned Sen. Durbin will only take a hard right stance. He knows better.In gaining his Senate seat in 1982, Durbin defeated Paul Findley. Findley had been critical of Israeli actions and found himself the target of a highly funded vicious campaign conducted by the Israeli Lobby.
Though this foreign intervention in US politics benefited Durbin, he is well aware that the Lobby's sights could easily turn on him or any other American politician who refused to follow the Likkudnik party line.
So, what about all the missiles being lobbed into Israel by Hamas? Does that not count? The Israelis are brutal. What did you expect them to do? Let rockets rain down day after day?
Do you know why we didn't see video on our TVs of "rockets rain down day after day" in Israel? Because A0 they weren't "raining down" , they were few and scattered and in retaliation for Israel breaking the cease-fire and starving people to death. and B) they didn't make big booms that killed a lot of people like the MSP likes to show on their "news" programs. Each single one of the Israel bombs is considerable more powerful then the Hamas rockets and about a thousand times the number of them being used.
because the msm doesnt think it is newsworthy to show death and destruction of jews and their property
The MSM is now a pawn of the Palestinians? Do you write for the Colbert Report as well?
While I don't support what the Israeli government is doing, your rose-coloured glasses take on Palestine is also silly. Your post would have us believe that any actions taken up by Palestinian terrorists are completely justified acts of retaliation against evil oppressors. If all you care about is pointing fingers, I am not convinced you'll see how all fingers involved are dripping in blood.
As I watched this interview this morning and Mr. Perez framed Israel's action as some kind of favor it was paying to the Palestinians to save them from their incompetent elected government I couldn't help but wonder why Canada or Mexico could not have administered some of the same tough charity for us U.S. citizens in the last eight years.
hmmm?
que?
Too bad Nations don't compete to help their neighbors instead of attacking them.
Funny thing is Gaza is right on Israel's doorstep, whilst Iraq is thousands of miles from us.
Why would a leader of a sovereign nation come on US TV and try to sell his view of this siege? Are there no zionist outlets in Israel?
?
I don't have time to find the link and post it, but if you go on the NYTIMES website there's a slideshow of the conflict on their front page... and one of the photos clearly shows white phosphorus being used.
Cluster-fuckers is what these things are.
What's next depleted uranium?
Who do you think is supplying this shit ?
Seems since george's wonderous agreement with the Iraqis the MIC needs a new real time test location, with a viable population, to test the latest STUFF coming off the lines. The new precision killing machines look really spiffy.
Sad to say, but I really wouldn't doubt it...
From the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs
Gaza Humanitarian Situation Report, January 4th 17:00:
"There is an almost total blackout in the governorates of Gaza, North Gaza, Middle Area, and Khan Yunis. Most of the telephone network (both land lines and cell phones) in Gaza is also not functioning since it now depends on back-up generators with dwindling fuel stocks."
"All of Gaza City hospitals have been without mains electricity for 48 consecutive hours, depending entirely on back-up generators. The hospitals warn that the generators are close to collapse."
"All Gaza goods crossings with Israel are closed today. No fuel, aid supplies or other commodities will be allowed entry to Gaza today. Both Erez and Rafah crossings are closed today meaning that no medical supplies or medical evacuations will be permitted entry / exit to or from Gaza."
"Cash: Has still not entered the Gaza Strip and is urgently needed"
-
There appears to be some conflict in what the UN is saying and what Peres is saying.
You don't think Peres is lying, do you?
#1. would you be waving such big sticks if it weren't for the U.S.?
#2. where is the video of the hamas missile attacks against southern israel?
#3. how many israelis died before 2 weeks ago?
#4. how many palestinians will have to die before you have rooted out the evil terror??
#5. why did Israel break the peace agreement by blocking all aid to Palestinians BEFORE any rockets were fired at them
#6. Why has Israel not allowed international journalists into Gaza
unless they are concerned that the world will see and hear the
truth regarding their murderous actions.
knowing that the "terrorist cowards" are hiding among the civilians, how do cluster bombs ensure a critical, surgical strike against Hamas militants while keeping civilian losses at a minimum?
that the Jews deserved the Holocaust cuz they were hiding out everywhere the Germans went? Didn't think so either.
in your munitions?
#8 Care to comment on their source? (Thought not...)
#9 One of your spokesmen stated in essence that if Hamas was suffering during these bombings, that that was their fault. Since when does All Palestinians = Hamas, and would you care to explain why a four-day old baby boy has been injured and will evidently likely die from his injuries because there are no incubators due to the blockade? Who did he aim a rocket at?
#10 Alon Pinkas stated that "Israel, like you, has a Manifest Destiny"... Does he realize or care what happened to people of this continent who did not have the fortune to be good ol' white Americans?
#1. no
#2. the dog ate it
#3. just a few
#4. too many
#5. That's a hard one cc. Because the Israelis hate the Palestinians?
please score me and tell me how I did.
I despise the Israeli government for its evil attack on Palestine. No apology or justification lessens the evil or brings back the lives and homes destroyed.
And if Obama does not stop Israel's warmongering, he goes in the pot, too.
n/t
israel should not be allowed to retaliate. all Hamas missiles should should be met with a "thank you" card and kind words from the living. suicide bombers should be appreciated by their victims as committed and just persons doing what is right and honourable. why would any one want to stop such a thing??
Why don't you give up your house and land, or your apartment, your car, bank account and everything else you own so some militant Zionist can come live in YOUR house?
And go live on the street.
If you REALLY believe that what the Zionists have done to Palestine is just?
so your point is moot
No it isn't.
If you believe that the Evil Israelis swooped in and stole a bunch of land unprompted, you need to do a little research -- especially about what happened in 1967.
Deir Yassin Massacre? Bombing of King David Hotel? The Irgun also bombed public markets. Netanyahu had the audacity to celebrate the anniversary of the bombing of the King David (which killed over 90 people) in 2006 and a plaque was installed that honored the operation which was carried out by lead terrorist Menachen Begin. The Deir Yassin Massacre started the Palestinian emmigration, while the King David bombing started the British withdrawal.
The Palestinians are well known for everything they ever did. There is plenty of blood to go around, but so far the Palestinians have been doing most of the bleeding. Not to worry, it looks like they'll keep up their end as foreign policy likely won't change under Obama.
at the difference!
http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-...
Grim, but thanks.
Now how about some pics of the of the current damage in Israel for a little side-by-side comparison. Please do post, trolls...
Why don't you post them if you can? Moron!
your link, as grim as the pics are.
for the mistake!
I still long (somewhat) for the good ol' days of numbered posts...
The pictures really are worth a thousand words.
One caution. The beginning photos depicting the slaughter in Gaza are bloody. There are also many, many of them.
There are photos of the "damage" caused by Palestinian rockets after the Gaza photos.
Scroll down; the difference is gut-wrenching. One that particularly struck me was a photo of an Israeli (my assumption - from his attire and attitude he could easily have been a tourist) posing next to the remains of a "rocket" and smiling his bravery for the camera. After all of the carnage in Gaza previously shown, the disconnect was horrible.
half of the palestinian pics are fake...,hamas posing on the ground
cuz damn...israeli missle attacks must be damn good to kill hamas terrorist so that they end up in a perfect circle with no blood splatter
little kids with bloody faces, but no blood on their clothes...amazing
I have seen hundreds of those where blood is everywhere in the streets ,clothes , cars , hairs.
What about these are they fake too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4cYtBmtTFo
Those people don't have not even food nor ketchup.
half of the palestinian pics are fake...,hamas posing on the ground.
Willful ignorance. That combined with cold blooded hatred will solve everything.
The above comment is one of the stupidest comments I've seen in awhile.
Have you spent any time in a war zone? I have, and you don't know what you're talking about imbecile.
but had to stop when I saw the images of the children. Horrifying.
I just find it funny how these people show up everytime the Israelis attack poor and impoverished Palestinians. After the PR stunt "show of force" is over, they always dissappear.
What you're really saying is that the people of Gaza "should not be allowed to retaliate" since it WAS Israel that originally BROKE THE CEASE-FIRE!!!
He has really sunken low.
It sounds too much like the Nazi denials of concentration camps etc etc.
All lies, lies and more lies, the Gazans are fine and happy and well provided. Criminally pathetic.
I wonder whether Hollywood will make a lot of movies about this horrendous behaviour or whether the History Channel will programme any of this indecent and obscene actions.
Shame, shame, shame.
This 1996 (or 1998?) document:
A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm
is every bit as important as all the PNAC documents for understanding the recent behavior of the "NeoLiberals" here in the US and in Israel.
It is their plan for "securing the realm" - the entire Middle East.
They place squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinians responsibility for every aspect of the Palestinian situation, as if Israel's role in their situation amounts to nothing.
It also makes clear their plans for deposing Saddam and attacking Lebanon.
Hatem Shurrab
What an interesting name.
Unless I misread my history, the State of Israel was founded by European refugees given asylum who decided to shove their benefactors aside and seize the land they considered theirs by birthright? If I'm incorrect, someone please enlighten me. I confess that I am not that well versed in Middle-eastern history. However, I am baffled that our government continues its adoration and blind support of this squatter nation who puts its own citizens in harm's way by encouraging settlement into disputed territory.
If there is blame to be determined here, my mind puts the Israelis at the head of the line.
That's one way of looking at it. Another way is to note that there have been Jews living continuously in Israel for 4000 or so years, diaspora, just not as many as before the Romans came in and put down the Jewish revolts. Prior to 1948 almost all of the land occupied by Jews was either always in Jewish hands, or purchased - often from absentee Arab landloards - but nevertheless purchased.
The partition of Palestine left Israel with obviously insecure boundaries. The Arabs got the highlands of Golan, the Jews got the target practice range below. The Arabs got the highlands of the West Bank, the Jews got a 10 mile wide vulnerable strip that connected north and south. With all the wars fought since 1948, the primary objective of the Arab nations was not to simply win back lands - it was to destroy Israel.
And please, don't talk of "benefactors" being shoved aside. You are talking about England who made life notoriously difficult for Jews during their occupation.
Try reading up on both sides some times.
Thank you for your insight, but even your comments show members of a religious group with a single-minded purpose to possess land they believe to be their god-ordained heritage, despite the fact that it is occupied by others. Israel is the name given to this territory based on the belief of adherents to the Jewish faith. The concept of "diaspora" is based on faith, not genetic ancestry. The State of Israel has always stood firm (with Western support, I might add), that they have a right to defend themselves, but they have shown that the reserve the right to be aggressors as well, if they feel threatened.
They're kind of like the man who insists on building his house on a flood plain, standing on the roof declaring his right to live there while surrounded by rising water.
...even though you need to do a lot more homework before you toss about flimsy accusations.
A handful of powerful Middle Eastern countries--including Syria, Egypt, Iran, etcetera--attacked Israel and managed to fumble very poorly in such a way as to have their land seized. Were the U.S. attacked by those wishing to decimate every single American, you'd be celebrating were American forces to do so well as to end up occupying the invading country.
In short, Israel didn't always hold the land it holds now, and since then has tried to peacefully remove itself from areas such as the West Bank -- only to have disastrous consequences ensue. Ever since Jews poured out of Europe, fearing persecution, and into Israel, there have been near-constant attacks on the state; Israelis die in these attacks often. Most recently, Palestine elected Hamas--a terrorist organization determined to destroy Israel--into power.
You can say 'Well, Palestinians were only reacting to [insert past slight here]!' but what you may not realize is that I can cite an endless series of excuses as well. Both sides have, at times, fucked up horribly but--even if I don't like what they are doing now--the Israeli government is the only one who has tried to fight the peace of a two-state solution while also offering medical aid, money, supplies, and sanctuary to their theoretical enemies.
In any event, peace won't be possible until both sides try harder and both sides let go of a past that can never be altered.
To tell you that you are wrong:
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/so...
No more lies.
ZIONISM is as bad as FASCISM
The difference is the MSM that you control (Most of the western media)is even more powerfull.
I am not talking about the decent jew people.
They are as good as the Good Muslims
Zionism sucks!
You have taken nearly a century of (recent, of course, as recorded history dates back to the Bronze Age) history, and reduced it--a piece of land engulfed in turmoil--to a suger packet's worth of propaganda.
Just think about what you said for a moment: Does it sound like a recap that takes into consideration all facts, or merely a single, disgustingly biased point of view?
Hamas was firing 80 or so missiles a day into Israel. What would you have Israel do? Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel. I promise you, saying "pretty please with a cherry on top, don't do that" isn't going to work. Why don't you focus on the international pariahs that arm Hamas? Once the missiles stop and the suicide bombings stop you can begin to enact trust-building steps that can eventually restore normalized commerce and flow of goods. A lot of people in Gaza want to work in Israel and a lot of Israelis want to hire them. They have in the past so this can work. But if you can't consider the legitimate needs of Israeli security in your collective ranting then all you are doing is advocating the destruction of Israel.
Stop ranting and start proposing workable solutions.
Trolling work for ya? Only the posts on here about Israeli atrocities bring out all the "new" names that then disappear like magic.
Trolling? I don't think you understand the term.
Let me repeat. Stop ranting and start proposing workable solutions. Israeli "roll over and play dead" is not an option. Tell me what Israel is supposed to do, and then I'll be happy to explain the consequences and why Israel probably won't want to do it.
On the other hand, I can tell you what will happen if Hamas stops it's aggression. In the short term it will result in humanitarian relief. In the long term it will result in commerce and general economic improvement. It seems like an easy choice to me.
.. for once they should stop shelling civilian positions. That would be a great start.
... you just can't lose.
Something like: Unless you convince me to my satisfaction of an alternative of which I apporve, mass slaughter is the only viable response. Idi Amin would be proud.
Israel could start by not ALWAYS criminally breaking cease-fire and truce agreements!
Israelis think that they are superior and have a right to herd the dirty little brown skinned people into refugee camps and use them as slave labor.
Reality check here...
If you are going to do shit like that; don't act surprised or pretend to be the victim when someone fires a rocket into your city.
born and raised in israel
you pathetic racist
"Stop ranting and start proposing workable solutions."
Well that's a curious statement coming from a person who introduces himself to a forum with the heading:"Idiots of the Left Unite".
At any rate their IS a solution,promoted by almost evey country on Earth other than the US and Israel, based on acceptance of Israel's 1967 borders which Israel, in its pathological need to control the entire region continues to refuse to even consider.Meanwhile this disgraceful,disgusting slaughter continues and is openly enabled by the American media.
Do you remember why the 1967 boundaries are no longer the 1967 boundaries? Read up on that piece of history. A somewhat more peaceful Egypt and Jordan would have insured the boundaries would have stayed as they were. Nassar and Hussein were out to "drive Israel into the sea" so you might consider that Israel has good reason to hang onto somewhat more secure borders. Even so, Arafat had a chance to get almost all that back for his Palestinian state in 1972 and opted for Infitada instead.
The 1967 borders are still doable and a lot of Israelis will be happy to trade the land for peace. But others remember 1967. And still more remember 1973 where that extra buffer might have saved the existance of Israel. A unilateral move back to the 1967 boundaries will not provide the security that Israel needs.
Do it in small steps. The first step is to stop the missile attacks. Israel has proven time and time again that it will respond positively.
Sort of like when they broke the cease-fire with Palestine in November and December? Yeah, right.
I suggest that ISRAEL stop attacking Palestinians and they will respond positively. The whole WORLD will respond positively.
Are you really comparing the glorified fireworks of Hamas to the fourth strongest military power on earth?
a little comparison.
http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-...
I already posted that link!
missed it
Yup. War is hell. How many missiles did Hamas shoot where Israel did nothing? It would be well to caption those pictures, "disaster brought on by Hamas refusing to stop firing missiles". This was perfectly predictable, and brought on the desired effect. Hamas leaders are probably really proud of themselves right now. As far as they are concerened, the hell with the Gazans - we got the postings we are looking for.
If Mexico were to start firing missiles into San Diego we'd probably do much the same.
But the US doesn't occupy Mexico, nor is Mexico surrounded by the US on all sides, collecting their taxes for them and giving them money only if they feel like it, denying them food, medicine, electricity, and water, entry and exit at all their borders, including their ports.
If the US were doing those things, most of us would not complain about a few rockets being fired into San Diego but would demand that the US cease and desist from its illegal actions.
As others have said, it's the illegal occupation that drives the Palestinian resistance to Israel, and until the occupation ends, the Palestinian retailiation won't end.
Go ahead and keep ignoring the fact that the very ineffective Hamas rockets were fired AFTER Israel illegally broke the cease-fire because without ignoring that you have nothing.
By rockects fire from Gaza in all those SIX months of CEASE FIRE?
ZERO, NONE,ZIP
But
In november 4th 2008 (US elections day.Bravo!)a huge Missile attack was launched by ISRAEL.
The next day ISRAEL started a complete SEIGE of Gasa and hostilities never ended!
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n01/roy_01_.html
On video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plTFURMfTGk&fe...
Coincidence Right?
...Raw Story pulled this video, too Raw?
LEAKED: graphic, uncensored video shows carnage in Gaza
Because it was faked - recut from 2005 footage of rockets in a truck exploding and causing carnage at a Hamas rally.
check out the civillians who had dual citizenship who left
they cry about the hell the place is
but all look well fed, clean and less than terrorized
contrast that to pics on the ground when america attacked iraq
enough of the terrorist spin
support of Israel's attack on Gaza.
The whole world knows it.
Barry's getting off to a bad start.
and i am happy that i voted for him...and i will again in 4 years
if he is forced to capitulate to the left jew hating faction of the dem party...he is doomed
Are you still seeing commies under your bed?
wonder why jews have been fleeing the party?
its cuz of you myopic fucks who werent even around in 67 and 72
i was in the sinai when israel turned it back to egypt...i thought it was a terrible idea
but guess what...those two countries have had peace since
goddamn those blood thirsty israelis
they give back land that they shed blood over...and they make peace
Jew haters my ass.
Get your butt on a plane, fly to Israel and watch with your own eyes the Jewish demonstrators, albeit a few hundred, calling for an immediate ceasefire. Are you going to claim that THOSE Jews hate themselves now?
I was in NYC yesterday and talked to a few JEWS who were protesting Israel's actions.
What planet do you live on where everything is so black and white?
Judaism has nothing to do with this. My own mother is Jewish and she called Israel a "Nazi state" the other day.
Those who support Israel despite its criminal actions are the ones culpable.
Going to start in with the "jew-hater" meme again are you? So I guess for you the millions and millions of Jewish people world wide who are appalled and disgusted by the radical right wing Israeli governments slaughter of innocent people are just a bunch of "jew-haters". I'm sure it will be news to them!
and they dont number in the millions
and i could care less about them...they are scum
Unless they agree with your fanatical ideas.
You are a fascist, and your way of thinking is what allows people to be villified, scapegoated and murdered.
It means only one thing?
Because you say so?
There are dozens of issues that I'd like Obama to address, but he hasn't, yet. I guess that means he's already chosen a position, albeit a double-super-secret one.
Logic is foreign to you, isn't it?
http://www.zcommunications.org/zvideo/2961
does it for me and that would be this one
Very informative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_f0QTIsasw&eu...
i didnt hear word one when hamas was shooting rockets into totally civillian areas
i dont give a shit if no one died, there was no military purpose other than to terrorize the populace
go look at the videos from gaza
hamas has purposefully placed their military structures amongst civillians
they dont give a shit about the palestinian people
Can an occupied citizenry actually terrorize their occupiers? Seems like a stretch of the meaning of the word.
ditto that. if these "palestinians?" were shooting one missile a year at one of our cities we would be fucking them up big, not this piddly response by israel. the majority of these fools i'm reading here need a reality check. israel needs to blow up all their infrastructure first and then blow up their house starting with the leadership's houses...oh? they're doing this now?? well good then. hopefully the morons will catch on before they only have tents.
... it has worked wonders, has it?
always stop short
today that is over
I have always thought that Israel had a right to exist but if they keep going down this same road the world will turn against them and they will be no more and maybe the end of the world since they have nukes and are the fourth strongest power.
You get your little rocks off calling Jewish people "jew haters" or what???
Or is this just your way of trying to get people to hate Jews?
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Mahatma Gandhi
It is out right murder and Israel/Bush Administration knows it. Israel lied about using cluster bomb given by the US during the Lebaon conflct, now Israel was given a stock pile of cluster bombs from the US to wipe the Palestine people off the face of the earth. Bush got away with killing 1 million Iraq men/woman/children and Israel is now doing the same. Even the World Leaders don't believe the lies Israel is saying. Pictures prove Israel is out right lying and only want total control of the Palestine land and next Israel will attack Egypt based on lies. This Holocaust on Palestine will go down as bad as the Jewish Holocaust which should make Hilter smile in hell knowing that Jewish people learned to do the same as he had done to them. Look for a Palestine Holocaust Massacre Museum. Now the Middle Eastern countries have cause to join together and support each other from the real Axis of Evil. The United Nations is powerless because they allowed the Bush Policy to be applied to the World. Even the terrorist are happy as now torure is legal in the World.
if a guy holds you at gun point, and you turn around and blow his brains out with a shotgun, are you liable for murder????
tell hamas to disarm, stop smuggling in weapons, stop all attempts at suicide bombings, and then we can talk
until then....its open season on the terrorist bastards
damn it man, don't stop now. i couldn't make the point more concisely...
israel will not be attacking egypt
why has no one noticed that egypts border is shut even tighter than israels
they want nothing to do with hamas or hesbalah
they would be overjoyed if those two orgs ceased to exist
For example, you forgot the rest of your faulty analogy. Namely that the guy "holding a gun to your head" (although I would hardly qualify a couple of bottle rockets as WMDs, but whatever)... is actually the owner of the house you just committed breaking and entering.
Also, in your quest to justify what amounts to a medieval blockade. You forget to mention the conditions that Egypt had to accept with the previous peace treaties, and by the strings attached by recent US aid. Namely, that they need to stop aid to Gaza, as all forms of aid are assumed to be helping the terrorist. That was all the way back to when PLO was all the rage to you guys...
The bottle rocket analogy is getting trite. Although I'm sure they are using such things as we call Molotov Cocktails, and at one time Greek Fire, what they're using is missles to which Israel fights back with bombs. The missles are capable of creating damage, but it's my understanding they're hard to aim or what I think more likely they lack range.
Before they were using suicide bombers and that's part of the reason they're so confined now. That and Egypt wont open their end of the walls. So even though Egypt is not bombing them, why haven't we seen more approbation heaped upon Egypt, at least while this open hostilities are going on?
the fact that the Arab world sucks ass, does not excuse Israel from waging open warfare upon civilians.
The disproportion of the attack is what appalls some of us, regarding of what Egypt does or does not do.
The Right Wing's dreamscape. But even wingnuts recognize that reasonable hunting and fishing laws be enforced. Tell us, just how many Palestinian children are allowed to be culled in this "Open Season"? Has Israel reached its limit? Is there a new weekly allotment?
Also, even some wingnuts had a problem with Dick Cheney's style of "hunting" recently caged animals. Isn't bombing of trapped civilians from the air a little less than sporting? Even during "Open Season"?
joe mccarthy:
>>if a guy holds you at gun point, and you turn around and blow his brains out with a shotgun, are you liable for murder????
Hmm. did you occupy that guy for 41 years? Did you control all his movment, restrict his trade and bar all freedom?
Sorry bud, but the problem is THE OCCUPATION.
Gaza was never free. Are you surprised that they are pissed off at their oppressor?
I guess you just hate freedom and support occupation.
because israel, in its wrong thinking...didnt do to the west bank what they did to the golan...annex the entire area
israel never wanted the gaza
when they turned back the sinai to egypt, they offered the gaza...egypt refused
and im sick of the "occupation" argument
when israel sat down with arafat, that corrupt, murderous bastard walked away from the table
when israel pulled out of the gaza, the first thing those murderous bastards did was to set up missle sites and destroy the structures left by israel...that includes the hydroponic farms that shouldve kept food on their tables and a steady income coming in
dont try to rewrite reality with me buddy
Are you for real? Or do you assume most people here do not have basic grasp of XX century history and you are trying to basically rewrite history as it suits you.
For once, Egypt did in fact occupy Gaza for almost twenty years. Gaza was then invaded and annexed by Israel after the six day war.
they tried to return gaza
yes, they annexed gaza after 67...but they were still in a state of war with egypt....or did you forget that
of course you did...cuz you hate the jew
that is all you can say when someone points our your bullshit, that "I hate the jew."
Spare me the victimization bullshit...
It seems it is A-OK for you to hate other people, but when someone tries to conduct an actual argument... oh noes, it all comes down to Jewish hate.
what the f*ck is wrong with you?
You are officially off the reservation. And I would be careful about making such claims, you trying to use the umbrella of antisemitism does cheapen the suffering of those who did in fact have to endure actual suffering for being Jewish.
All you have are ad hominem and bullshit tangential arguments. The fact that the site moderators allow you to go off on other posters is quite telling though.
Israel never annexed it. They occupied it from '67 to '94. Egypt renounced claims to the Gaza Strip in '79. At this point Gaza is just land, not a province of any other nation, yet not recognized internationally as its own sovereign nation. Per the Oslo Accords, Israel controls the airspace and and territorial waters, border entry and taxes.
... was made by Joe Scarborough recently - especially the part about Israel offering everything and the Palestinians walking away.
The problem for Joe was that he made these arguments to Zbigiew Brzezinski. Brzenzinski's response was noted here on C&L a few days ago.
he worked for carter...a world class jew hater
carter is the only honest right wing christian in the world
he still thinks that we killed his lord
Wasn't he Jewish?
And Brzezinski thought Scarborough was "stunningly superficial." Going for "shockingly superficial" UncleJoe?
I think you've got a pretty good shot.
comments on no blame being given to the bush administration
if he also meant that israel is mostly to blame for the current crisis...then yes...fuck him
Brzezinski was responding directly to Scarborough's contention that the Palestinians were given everything they asked for and walked away from the peace table.
You briefly perused the blurb on the post without watching the video. While definitely superficial, it's unfortunately not very stunning anymore.
"when israel sat down with arafat, that corrupt, murderous bastard walked away from the table"
See What an Recognized US Politician who was there during the Clinton-Camp Davis Talks say about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mk18af8z9Y
And i remember that the real issue was: YOU DID NOT Included EAST JERUSALEM in your Proposicion
"The dream of Greater Israel -a homeland for the Jewish people from the Nile to Euphrates- which inspired the founding fathers of Zionism, was already dead."
Olmert 2008
ZIONISM SUCKS!
You've just justified Hamas' rocket attacks!!!!!!!!! Because Israel has had a gun at the head of Gaza for quite some time. Literally!
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