Objects in the Mirror
Have a good look at these two women, both wearing the same bathing suit. Which one, in your opinion, would you consider as ‘sexier’?
Now, which one do you suppose was raved over as being 'sensational' by judges of one of those ubiquitous ‘I wanna be a supermodel’ type reality shows, and which one was reduced to tears after being harshly criticized for not taking her diet and exercise regime seriously?
Go on... guess…
Yeah, wasn’t hard, was it? The girl on the left, British yummy mummy Jen Hunter, was 24, and at 5’11” and 11 stone (that’s 154 pounds or just under 70 kilos for the rest of us) was told by a judge who is the managing director of a modeling agency that her legs were ‘stocky’ and scolded by former supermodel Rachel Hunter (no relation) for being ‘fat, lazy and greedy.’
While the judges – professionals from the fashion industry – preferred ‘the walking skeleton,’ tens of thousands of television viewers quite adamantly voted for the more voluptuous Ms Hunter, far and away enough to win over the judge’s favourite…
… just a few hours before model Ana Carolina Reston, a 21-year-old Brazilian model, was reported as having died of starvation, trying to live on a diet of apples and tomatoes to keep her catwalk career. Ms Hunter’s Body Mass Index was a healthy 21.5, while the girl on the right, Swedish Marianne Berglund, had a BMI of 16.1, well below the 18.5 considered by health professionals as the minimum weight of a healthy adult woman, and even below the minimum BMI of 18 for models taking part in Madrid Fashion Week, set after catwalk model Luisel Ramos collapsed three months earlier at a fashion show and died from heart failure, having eaten nothing but salads and Diet Coke for three months in her lethal attempt to slim down to the perfect size zero.
Three months after Hunter’s win and Reston’s death, Luisel Ramos’s sister, Eliana, a model with a major Argentine agency, died after having starved herself. Rather than even consider the issue of the fashion industry’s insane demands on young models desperate enough to risk their lives to be thin ‘enough’, her boss, Pancho Dotto, declared well before any coroner’s post mortem that ‘obvious the sisters’ deaths must be due to a genetic problem.’
Of course, this was back in 2006, and things must have gotten better since then, right?
‘It's fantastic to know the public prefer a woman with a few wobbly bits over a stick insect,’ Ms Hunter said after the show and refused to drop three sizes for the show’s prize, a modelling contract with Select Models – despite her win, the contract went instead to her emaciated rival. Cape Management agency offered her work, the first size 12 on their books – but she was rejected in castcalls for being ‘too big.’ Eventually, she signed with Excel Models… a ‘plus size’ agency.
Plus size. The woman is a size 12, with a BMI of 21.5, and she’s considered a ‘plus size’. My BMI is hovering right at the brink of 25, and while I’d be happy to shed a few inches here and there after the usual Christmas binging, I’m no ‘plus size’. The average size for women in the UK is between 14 and 16 (12 to 14 US). The average model size is still a size six to eight (4 to 6 US). Models have always been thinner than average, but a quarter of a century ago, the difference between you and me and the catwalk ladies was eight percent. Now it’s 23 per cent.
This month, Brigitte, a German woman’s magazine with a circulation of 700,000 announced a ban on professional models for its fashions shoots after hundreds of its readers wrote to complain about superskinny models. Now, the magazine is recruiting amateurs – history teachers and hotel receptionists and restaurant owners and artists and economics students – to grace the pages of the monthly glossy. And 20,000 normal women have signed up as potential models. For years, editor Andreas Lebert said, the magazine has had to use Photoshop on their professional models to ‘fatten them up,’ – in sharp contrast to the Photoshopped picture of Filippa Hamilton, whose body was digitally altered for a Ralph Lauren Blue Label ad to resemble a bobble-head doll, her normal head on an absurdly thin body. ‘Dude,’ Cory Doctorow howled with laughter on his blog boingboing.net, ‘her head’s bigger than her pelvis!’
The gorgeous 23 year old was then fired this past October; at 5’10” and 120 pounds, she was considered ‘overweight’ and unable to fit into Ralph Lauren clothes an longer – which is presumably what Ralph Lauren meant when he claimed she was fired ‘as a result of her inability to meet the obligations under her contract with us.’ Meaning… she’s too ‘fat’. The women have to fit in his clothes. Which makes me have to ask – why don’t you just make bigger clothes, Ralph? Newsflash for ya: clothes are supposed to fit the women.
Apparently, Lauren’s fellow fashion designer, Karl Lagersfeld, feels much the same way, insisting ‘Nobody wants to see a curvy woman.’ He accused critics of super-thin models as being a jealous bunch ‘fat, chip-eating mummies,’ thereby insulting every woman who has ever given birth to a child as well. Nice.
And it gets even more ridiculous. Apparently, French shoe designer Christian Louboutin thinks Barbie’s ankles are too fat. That’s right – Barbie. The anorexic doll that bears no resemblance to the anatomy of a real woman, ankles or any other part of her plastic body. But guess who’s redesigning Barbie for her launch this coming May? Mais oui, mes amis, you guessed right again.
Five thousand people have been kicked out of the BeautifulPeople dating site this month for being ‘festive fatties,’ including a New Zealand couple foolish enough to post their post-Christmas photos on the site. The website boasts 600,000 members who collectively vote ‘democratically’ to decide on which applicants are pleasing enough on the eye, while casting out the ‘fatties’. Since all applications are done on-line, and no one comes round to the house to check, I would be curious as to just how many Photoshopped ‘beautiful’ people there are on the site – but I suspect I’m not beautiful or irrational enough to ever find out.
Meanwhile, every time I cruise the internet, I’m bombarded with the ads: Use this one weird tip to a flat belly! Here’s how I lost 42 pound in two months with this simple trick! Get Killer Abs with this Amazing Diet! Whirl Yourself Thin in Ten Minutes a Day on the Fat Burning Bum Tum Thigh Booty Flex King Cardio Energizer Shaper Stepper Sculptor Circle Pro! Little cartoon women expand and contract before my eyes, while a disembodied torso squeezes and jiggles her belly fat at me. It’s everywhere, and it’s pernicious. I spent a day with a friend at a local church hall recently as a roomful of gorgeous, curvaceous, bubbly women sweated and gyrated while doing their best to keep up with the Zumba guy and his coterie of Zumbimbos, all desperate to believe that they, too, could be that thin and gorgeous with what turns out to be little more than an ordinary work-out routine with a few dance moves tossed in and some flash music.
Women’s self-image and, worse, our daughters’ self-image is being driven not just by impossible standards, faked Photoshopped women who’ve never existed, but by a bunch of old fat gay men and neurotic women. Why the hell does anyone listen to them? They’re idiots! Why does anyone listen to them instead of the tens of thousands of people who chose Jen Hunter over Marianne Berglund? Why don’t we see what hundreds of disgruntled German women got tired of seeing in their magazines and complained? Why do we watch these bloody American’s Next Top Model ‘reality’ shows when there’s nothing ‘real’ about them? And if women can’t listen to all those wonderful men who love them, (you guys know who you are) the ones we don’t believe when they tell us we’re sexy, the ones who aren’t homo-neurotic pretentious poseurs of the first order themselves, then here’s a last little quiz for you. Test your own eyes:
One of these women is 180 pound ‘plus size’ model Lizzie Miller, and the other is a ‘sensational’ perfect size zero.
Get the picture?
I generally don't have a problem with an 180 pound woman so long as she has nice curves.
I know I'm going to catch hell here and I probably won't be able to phrase this in a way that will soften the mine field I am walking into. . . but here goes anyway. . .
This fashion industry ideal is not sexy to most hetro-sexual men. Do a survey sometime. . it just isn't.
There is something else at work here and I think it might be related to the fact that straight men are stereotypically not in charge of fashion (and probably rightly so in the clothing design sense). When you combine this with the overwhelming power the fashion industry has to say WHO is sexy as well as WHAT looks good on people. . you have a dangerous combination.
When you give total control over our ideals of what sexy is to homosexual men and powerful largely hetro-sexual women. . it's like asking a priest to design a sex toy and wondering why it ends up being some twisted dangerous thing that only remotely resembles sex and sometimes kills people. . .
I know Ralph Lauren is married with kids. . it's not that specific. We are talking larger trends here.
Ok. . ducking my head now and preparing for the beating. . .
Gay men aren't serving up images of women as sex toys. Time to panic!
Well. . I would submit that the quest for images of women as sexy beings that hetro-sexual men want is less dangerous than the quest for images of women which homosexual men (in the fashion industry) seem to want that cause them to get anorexia, become drug addicts to loose weight. . and die of starvation.
Many anorexics don't want to appear sexually alluring to men. Complaining about how unfuckable skinny women are just might encourage anorexia.
So you are making the case that the definition of "sexy" should mean unfuckable?
That would make me doubt your own qualifications to talk about sexy.
Perhaps if you understood anything about the psychology of anorexia, you wouldn't get so confused over the easy concepts.
EDIT:To reiterate: many anorexics don't want men to stick their penis in them. So complaining that men aren't enticed to stick their penis in women who are too skinny isn't doing jack shit to address anorexia.
Are you still confused?
A dear friend of mine in school was anorexic, and probably the most promiscuous girl there - of course this is the only experience I have personally had with an anorexic. That aside I recall reading about the promiscuity of top models, and their drug addictions, so I'm wondering where you get this data from?
I think what Brain Food is trying to get at is that both anorexia and promiscuity are issues of impulse. Anoretics generally have poor impulsive control and they will engage in sexual behavior if they believe it will allow them to control their surroundings or desire for food. Anorexia gives the impression that anoretics are never hungry--far from it. But they'll give into drug abuse and sex before they're willing to give into food.
Marya Hornbacher, the most visibly recovered anoretic, discussed her multiple bouts of sexual promiscuity through out her disease. Yet she's very specific that while she was engaging in these acts, sex was actually the last thing she wanted. She didn't want the intimacy, the "invasion" of someone inside of her, and certainly didn't want someone seeing her body.
I'm not sure that being anorexic doesn't take an enormous amount of willpower. I couldn't not eat if I was hungry in a place there was food. Sure, as such, drugs and sex offer a vent, or substitution, for hunger. I imagine.
I don't know this Marya Hornbacher, but from what google has supplied me with she was not a model. The only reason I make this delineation is because models are told they are beautiful, whereas the rest of us will be told we are sick by those around us. I would imagine this makes a difference with one's self-image.
On another note I was not really reponding to the nuances and psychology of anorexia, rather I wanted to point out the rather uncalled-for rudeness of the individual responding.
There is a noted difference in the literature between the social behaviors of anorexics compared to that of anorexics with bulimia or bulimics. Bulimics trend toward displaying the behaviors you note, whereas anorexics trend toward being socially withdrawn. Note the title of Hornbacher's book is "Wasted: A Memoir of Anorexia and Bulimia."
http://www.edtreatmentcenters.com/eating-diso...
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/anorexia/...
It's odd how often people confuse tabloid stories with reality.
Brain Food, this isn't a discussion about anorexia last I knew. It is a discussion about the fashion industry requiring a size zero female to model clothing in the name of "sexy."
I submit that designing your fashion for a size zero mannequin and calling it "sexy" regardless of the actual sexiness of a size zero female is a twisted value and it discredits your authority to call something sexy. It is even worse when your new baseless, fashion based, definition is now causing women to actually become un-sexy anorexics in order to please you. On top of this you are also a complete fraud if you also don't happen to be a hetrosexual male who experiences the traditional feeling of sexy females in the first place.
Does that confuse you?
If they just started with some of the actual proven definitions of sexy and then worked with the fashion from there instead of thinking they are the authority over both fashion AND sexy. . we wouldn't have any problem with dying models.
You brought up anorexia in the post I was replying to, along with your gay bashing. You'll forgive me now if I ignore the rest of your stupidity.
"homosexual men (in the fashion industry) seem to want that cause them to get anorexia"
The buyers are women and competitor designers, not men. Ultimately it doesn't matter what men think of the women's fasion world since they are not the target client. Instead, I believe, men have magazines featuring women that cater largely to men. Those women bear little resemblance to the women in the fasion industry, which is now swaying from skinny to large completely overlooking the size of woman that is a male ideal. Or so it would seem.
You make fair points.
I think my overall point, though, is that we shouldn't give authority of what is "sexy" in both the supply and demand side of fashion to people who don't really experience the meaning of the term.
You end up with the Frankenstein monster ideal we have today.
If sexy had to be fashionable. . but also live up to the true ideals of what attracts the opposite sex. . we might not have women starving themselves.
In what other universe does the look of clothing on a size zero mannequin define "sexy" over the actual sexiness of a size zero female?
But the Frankenstein monster is swaying to the next extreme.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/05/nude...
A healthy BMI range is just not what the fasion industry will ever term as sexy.
How is it that we go from anorexic to "plus sized?"
Once again someone is shifting the idea of sexy in a way that serves other motives. Now we all need to believe that plus sized women are sexy but everyone other than anorexics qualify as "plus sized?"
You're right. It seems like everyone needs to take an extreme angle on this. .
Fashion designers, (gay or straight) need models to be hangers for their clothes - that's why they prefer stick figures. I think they are more a reflection of what society deems beautiful than leading the way. In every society the rarest body type is usually regarded as the most beautiful - in societies where food is scare, plump is the ideal. In our society, where food is plentiful for most of us, thin is the ideal.
One of the best things about getting older is learning to be comfortable with who and how you are.
There was a special on anorexia on BBC America recently. They had one anorexic on the show who told the interviewer that she needed to be thinner, even though she was already thin by any sane person's standards, and very attractive. This is a mental illness, and anyone that continues to perpetuate it deserves every ounce of derision they get.
I prefer the one on the left
But she's still a little too skinny
Here's more my preference:
http://www.gerbergallery.ch/images/samshaw_20...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntxOu1zoF8U
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
the one on the right looks like she needs the red-cross to drop in with relief rations. Kind of like all those skeletons who fashion on French runways.
Goodnight, Frau Blücher
Here's anudder:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
the porn barons, predators, and pedophiles running the entertainment and woman's fashion industry have been producing . . Lady Gaga being the latest . . we'll see how long Milly Cyrus lasts also before she ends up in the trash bin.
is a reaction to Feminism. The more women who decide to live healthy and comfortable lives, that is: not look like something from "The Nightmare Before Christmas", the more objectified they are by the men controlling "fashion".
In the 1920's -when feminism was going strong- the decreed fashion was flat-chested and hipless.
In the 60's when Feminism was reemerging, Twiggy became the standard of beauty. Ug!
But today our Fashion Masters are going way too far. No one Sane wants to look like a refugee.
Lady Gaga? Really?
right is upsetting.
. . orange skin . . ever noticed that? Might be the over consumption of genetically modified hops, and corn syrup tweaking their systems.
Economic and class prejudice create acnegenic stress. The same factors lead to cheap diets. Hate to disillusion you, but a dollar fifty will purchase a cola or a pack of pastries, but not very much in the way of veggies, unless you are willing to eat cabbage daily for the rest of your life.
The physical changes created or exacerbated by a steady diet of bigotry, are then utilized by employers as a disqualifier for living-wage employment.
Which leads the working class to despise an "educated" middle class which appears to be trained only in hatred of the productive class.
The photo of Marianne Berglund is downright disturbing. She looks like a Holocaust victim.
upsets me as well... her feet look like they are falling out of her shoes, and it looks like standing there is literally killing her, too much effort.
and the dour expression on her face speaks volumes. Ugh.
I suffer from a severe case of celiac disease calgary lady. I looked like the picture on the right last may-june and if someone tells me that the woman on the right is attractive they are nuts. it took a long time but I am in a healthy weight range these days
I'm glad to hear that you're doing better.
was my exact thought. She looks fresh out of a death camp.
The woman on the right is from a famous picture from WW2...she IS a Holocaust victim. And, for the past few years, that is what the couture houses are encouraging these lovely young women to turn themselves into.
I am boycotting Ralph Lauren until they become realistic. And, I also believe that these young women that aspire to be super-models should REFUSE to commit such atrocity on their bodies. I think that Tyra Banks would agree...
I thought exploiting Holocaust victims to sensationalize a "news story" was considered distasteful. Of course, if one can exploit Holocaust victims to make derisive comments about anorexics, that's a win-win for everyone!
Why are you so hostile? I'm sorry if you suffered from anorexia, but you ain't the only one, hun. NO ONE has belittled anorexia on this thread, not a one. The picture drives the point home, no exploitation whatsoever. Have a drink and take your meds.
Shouldn't you be asking why people are so hostile toward skinny women (disgusting, stick insects, walking skeletons, freak shows) and why is anorexic thrown about as an invective?
Why the need to sensationalize the "story" with an image from the Holocaust, punkin?
http://www.adl.org/media_watch/internet/20071...
anything bigger than Paris Hilton is fat.
I've always appreciated a woman with curves. A REAL woman.
NOBODY 2012
Hear hear.
Edit: on a side note. You guys should jump on the bandwagon and use the Metric system. Like most of the world. ;)
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
I don't give a toss.
I have a friend who's about a hundred pounds heavier than I am. This guy doesn't take care of himself at all and yet will only try to hit on ladies who are 110 to 120 lbs. Once during a talk I told him that he wasn't fair or honest with himself(like a lot of us guys) and he just broke out into singing an old James Brown song "It's a man's world".
I like the fact that less women are buying into that bullshit and are learning to love themselves as they are.
I don't think it's about sexy, though. Since women are the primary audience for the clothes, the entrenched attitudes of designers and those who hire their models is that the women need to be non-threatening to the female customers. Their view is that concave backs and flat chests don't make women feel less attractive and that helps them focus on the clothes.
Perhaps that worked for a while, before rail-thin became the new standard of beauty.
Lizzie Miller.
http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Jayne-Mansfi...
http://api.ning.com/files/SEv8YqWBgUVKI9fjq1N...
http://www.thesassyminx.com/wp-content/upload...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jCwWtnZZuyk/SnZW_PV...
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...
http://www.leninimports.com/veronica_lake_gal...
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.cinematical.com/me...
http://eutund.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lou...
And one of my favorites:
http://celluloidheroes.files.wordpress.com/20...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
How about:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...
and ~
http://nowscape.com/atheism/images/Sign_of_th...
*
I personally think Marilyn was a domestic version of the corn fed beauty of Ingrid Bergman.
I'm not sure who the second one is, it looks a bit like Myrna Loy, Clara Bow and even Jane Wiedlin of the Go Go's.
http://tombotte.com/gogos/games/images/pic_ja...
I saved it though.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
It's Claudette Colbert, ysb.
I liked Claudette Colbert in Cat and the Canary and Ghostbreakers but didn't recognize her with short hair.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Here's Clara Bow's boyfriend at the time, he wasn't famous yet:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/61/201496569_4...
One of his most famous roles in his own country:
http://kindlerama.com/wp-content/uploads/2008...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
A couple of more with the ladies
http://themave.com/bijou/20/galry/galry-bow.jpg
http://deco-00.slide.com/r/1/99/dl/XLp1qM79yT...
http://www.altfg.com/Stars/c/cat-people_1.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Go2pG2QyVZU/SuHP4j-...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3016/276547392...
http://plotblog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834790a65...
http://www.jahsonic.com/BarbaraSteeleBound.jpg
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
The Hungarian part of me is melting into a wee Magyar puddle.
obviously its not about being sexy its about being thin. its just some strange freak show.
its a thin competition, not a sexy competition.
its like the guys who want to nearly kill themselves growing more muscles they can possibly have. its not sexy, either.
its a muscle competition...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kX6HY6AEUk&fe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRSxPHzXBK0
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
How grotesque!
still more sexy than the skeletons above
The thin craze is disgusting if you ask me.
is intended to be a factual statement
Yes - it's disgusting on many levels - but overall - the situation goes beyond that - it's heinous and even criminal.
*
Being thin is criminal? The comments here are so ridiculous and the reaction so over the top, there must be some regulars who recognize the same sort of media conditioning at play as in the Bush years regarding the War on Terra and the Reagan era War on Drugs.
No you nincompoop, no one said being thin is criminal - what's criminal is gorgeous, healthy, size-effing-six women being fired from their jobs because they "don't look good in clothes." And women dying trying to get themselves to some moronic standard put forth by some hateful a-hole rich gay man. (Not that there's anything wrong with being gay!!)
Get lost on your way through the two posts above mine?
That's a choice between life and death.
It's long past time that the public stopped accepting the BS we are handed.
Heroine Chic is not chic.... The fact is that healthy people look good and healthy can mean skinny or it can mean curvy.
This concept is not only limited to the fashion world. We have been sold a bill of goods that if we give rich people more money then they will spread it around. This has clearly not born out and any sane person knew that it wouldn't have.
The long and the short is when something sounds or looks like BS it most certainly is BS.
We have two daughter's - their self-image was one of the primary reasons we turned our television off - completely - when they were six and nine years old.
They're twenty-two and twenty-five now are are doing fine.
*
Today's TV (especially reality and gossip TV) can mess with a child's self esteem. When I was younger, girls were more confident, even the ones who got picked on. But today, if you don't look like the skeletons on the magazine covers, you're considered 'unattractive'.
NOBODY 2012
Nonsense. The anorexia panic has been in full swing since Karen Carpenter died in the early 80s. Those who suffer the illness have been demonized and misunderstood ever since. The tie-in to the "fashion industry," ballet, or whatever Hollywood actress has lost weight recently is just tabloid sensationalism for the sake of selling faux outrage + providing a chance to make derisive comments about women who don't have the appropriate tits and ass + appealing to the sanctimommies.
How is Lauren able to sell to normally-sized women when his clothes are designed to only fit on toothpicks?
And I'm not saying that women should be fat slobs or anything (hell, I'm trying to lose 25-40 lbs before summer), but while some people use 'healthy' as a euphemism for overweight, I tend to think of 'healthy' as 'theyre not going to drop dead from exhaustion while walking to their limo' or 'theyre not going to blow away'.
When I was sick none of my clothes would even fit. I'm 6'5" and last may -june I was 130lbs because of celiac disease. It's not fun and I looked like the black and white picture on the right
hope you are much better now.
There are women that are very skinny and truly healthy. They have a natural glow. I used to be one, and like you, I need to lose 25#. But, the models that are killing themselves are fighting the nature of their bodies. Look at some of the very famous models from the 50's and 60's. Suzy Parker, Lauren Hutton, Cheryl Tiegs. Clothes showed on them beautifully, but they didn't compromise their health. Why can't models start refusing to put their lives on the line for these "houses of couture"?
I agree. I think it is possible to be underweight (according to BMI) and still not only look healthy, but be healthy. Athletic types prove this. The shoulder bones might stick out a bit, but their bodies are not starting to shut down. Berglund looks like it's taking what little energy she has left just to stand there.
sick....
we have lost touch with what is really important....
Agreed - but those that watch television are bombarded with these images - our children and everyone else we know - including ourselves - and it becomes acceptable.
And this is never acceptable.
*
qualities, soul, spirit . . that can never be hidden no matter what kind of outer disguise or jive one uses to try to conceal their flaws.
Or weaknesses.
including a weakness for women with ahem, soft tummies?
And that's your pervy for today ::salute::
I take a lot of shit from my friends because I love curvy, voluptuous, JLo-booty women. It's always been my preference, for whatever reason. I don't reverse-discriminate against skinny women, so I have dated a few of them as well over the years.
The two biggest differences I have found are the attitude towards themselves and food. The skinnier the woman, the more insecure she was (and less trusting of my compliments) and the pickier she was with food (which restricted my choices too!) Most of the "larger" women I have dated have trusted that I thought they were hot and would never complain if I wanted to grab barbecue ribs or White Castle to go with our movie.
Guess which ones I've always had more fun with and enjoyed being around more?
The one getting a life insurance policy on you with herself as the beneficiary?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
And here in Texas we call White Castles sausage and biscuits
And rarely.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
You've touched on something that I've always suspected, but never really discussed with my male friends. I think that a lot of guys prefer bigger/curvier girls, but are afraid that they'll get shit from their friends if they actually date them. It sounds like, from your experience, there's truth to that.
There probably is and that's an unfortunate reality. Men are fed a narrow view of feminine beauty in the media and it's sad that it has affected us to the point of denying who we find attractive, just to adhere to a distorted social standard. It's hard to deprogram a lifetime of that influence, particularly if it is reinforced by a social circle, but it can be done. A line I often quote (from Battlestar Galatica of things) is "Every woman has her beauty, her feminine charms that are hers and hers alone". It's only a matter of going outside the myopic media definition of beauty to see them.
It comes down to personal preference, so I've never let my friends' teasing stop me from doing anything that I enjoy. But that guy-talk is always between us and is more about typical male posturing than anything. My friends have always preferred I date someone who is fun to be around and have come down hardest on the exes who were not pleasant people, despite how skinny or hot they may have been. So I don't think ALL hope is lost. :)
Who's pressuring men to date skinny women? Gay men in the fashion industry? Please. The fact is, men are dating all shapes and sizes of women because the dating pool reflects all shapes and sizes of women. The handwringing on this issue has been manufactured to provide "bread and circuses."
I've never gone out with a woman who wasn't neurotic about her body. It's a shame, really.
Jen Hunter is a babe. If she's a 'fat chick', I'm the King of Australia.
When 'sexy' = 'anorexic', neurotic cannot be far behind. And psychotic is not far behind that
Radix Omnium Malorum Avaritia
I'm a fashion photographer. I know this world very well and I hate agencies that come up with stupidity like "your legs are too big", "your body isn't long enough", "your boobs are too small".
I've shot various women in various sizes and various attributes for a variety of stuff. Some of the models I use are a little over 5 feet tall..and judging by my pictures, you'd never know. I have some girls in bikinis who have larger hips (according to their symetry) and you would never know (it's all about working the angles).
There is a serious problem with these agencies and they make me sick. I never never never deal with them unless a company tells me that I have too. I've found models I needed on the street or friends of friends.
I invite you to go on my website and tell me who's a pro and who isn't? You'll never be able to guess but I can tell you, only 5% of the models on my website are pros.
www.mondofocus.com
"A black belt is not what you were, it is what you become"
Wow! Great pictures! If you ever need an assistant, I'll work for free )
I used to work as a model in the 1980's. When I dropped down to 105 lbs. (I am 5'8") my agent in Paris complained that I was too thin and he would not be able to find me any work. I also lost a booking for a major ad campaign in Italy when the owner of the company saw me in person. At the time I had been living in Italy for about six months. I was not sick, I just hated Italian food. I went to Germany for a month and put on a few pounds, then I went to Paris and put on a few more. No more complaints from the agency. The women I knew who were runway models were thinner than print models, but I only remember one being as skinny as they are now. She was a coke addict.
Back then my average weight was 115 lbs and women my age were on average about 10 to 15 pounds heavier. Now almost half of our countries young people are overweight. Our country, and most of northern Europe, has an obesity epidemic going on which is destroying young people’s health. The fashion industry has always been about extremes and is having an extreme reaction to this epidemic. A very unhealthy reaction. They should use models that are fit, slim and healthy, along with some who are a bit on the heavy side. The ideal should be healthy and realistic not an extreme rebellion against obese people. This childish little rebellion just makes people feel and look like shit.
does this aberrant view of women persist. Why not just replace these models with a wire coat hanger? The garment hangs the same.
I find the woman on the left very sexy.......would not be attracted to the woman on the right.
After perusing various pix of Marianne Berglund over the web, I have to say the woman is anorexic, and those who praise her are taking advantage of her disease and helping to put her in her grave. How can I be so sure? My mother looked like that most of her life until she died when I was 12, of heart failure brought on by anorexia.
One of my favorite movie scenes of all time.
AMEN!!!
NOBODY 2012
never seen this...excellent!
"A black belt is not what you were, it is what you become"
One of my fave movie scenes too, Jess!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWn9EmbFTRo
http://www.feelgoodradio.co.uk/BillyGrant/Sar...
http://bondambitions.com/wp-content/uploads/2...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=act6JIFZG-M
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I dated a girl for a little while that looked like a smaller, blonde duplicate of Sarah Douglas. What a classic look. And slender, but certainly not bony.
Was the model of the picture on the right in the competition? Does she have anything to do with the model on the left? How is this related?
It looks to me like they were the finalists in a model competition, and the judges chose the lady on the right as their winner.
It doesn't look like that's what happened. I don't know, seems to my like use of extremes to make a point. Of course it's crazy if that's true, but at the same time, who the fuck cares about beauty competition? Anyone who wants to make a living using their bodies as a model rather than their brain to make a living is an idiot.
For a male designer to insist on emaciated models says more about the designer subconsciously "boying up" the model...and the female fashion docents and aging magazine editors are transparently hostile to normal women, wanting to portray them as starving urchins.
This has to stop sometime. Sounds like the UK audience had a quiet revolution. I'm sure it shocked the show's producers.
Enjoying all that life has to offer, including good food, is sexy as hell. I can't imagine climbing into bed with skin and bones, a saggy bottom and shrunken breasts. There is a point where genetic pressure kicks in to ensure that we breed healthy children, which is why real men like curves.
The only way that drag queens can compete in modeling is to starve away women's secondary sexual characteristics.
And, of course, those outfits are sales samples. They want them as small as possible so they can make the maximum amount of profit from the minimum amount of fabric.
Making women insecure sells clothing, makeup, and dead trees. You good guys could be agents of change in this world just by spreading the word that fashion is for fools, and allow us to wear what we darned well please, even if it's my summer Daisy Dukes and flip-flops.
Now it's drag queens who want to compete in modeling? Ok, this thread is a parody. Thanks for the clue hammer.
I think all women need to understand that fashion is generally controlled by gay men. Gay men don't like curvy female physiques because they're not attracted to women (obviously). So these gay men pick women whose bodies resemble men and boys. Contrast the women in Playboy with women in fashion---it's curvy women vs boyish women. Women---don't live your life to please gay men!!!!
I agree with this 100 percent. At what age do women start to discover this and break through the imposed thinking of the fashion mags? Just curious.
I'm gay.
"Gay men don't like curvy female physiques because they're not attracted to women (obviously)."
I find women who have curvy physiques to be more attractive, and all of my gay male friends agree.
a person that looks like they just stepped out of a concentration camp makes me feel bad, and I don't find them remotely attractive.
all I think when I see them is that they need to eat, and I hope they aren't terminally sick or something.
it's not that I don't think you have any point here, but in your own way, you just perpetuate a different harmful stereotype.
But I'll edit to get what I think she's getting at:
Because, of course, not all gay men are obsessed with women's fashion/clothing design.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Yeah, blame the gay man. That's the ticket. =/
Not only generalizing about gay men, but also about what makes women attractive. You're saying "curvy female physiques" = what men who are attracted to women find attractive. Right? Vs. skinny women = "whose bodies resemble men and boys"??
-- From a naturally thin girl who, although skeptical of this male gaze standard in the first place, doesn't think it should simply swing from "only skinny women are attractive" to "only appropriately curvy women are attractive."
Apparently helping girls and women with their self image problems includes calling them walking skeletons and stick insects if they fail to meet standards. Perhaps suggest they're unfriendly or on the path to being psychotic. Should we also comment about the lack of large breasts and an inviting succulent, ripe bottom?
If one wants to upset their notions of what anorexia is like or take a break from the media obsession with celebrity bashing, one may want to read the linked article to gain a different perspective.
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/63285/
Pulchritude! Pulchritude!
Be as you wish to seem
Essential watching:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1993...
Why do women get ads that say
"Your breasts may be too big, too saggy, too pert, too flat, too full, too far apart, to close together, too A cup, too lopsided, too jiggly, too pale, too padded, too pointy, too pendulous, or just two mosquito bites, but with [product], at least you can have your hair the way you want it,"
but men don't get ads that say
"Your penis may be too small, too droopy, too limp, too lopsided, too narrow, too fat, too jiggly, too pale, too pointy, too blunt, or just two inches, but at least you can have a great pair of jeans."
I don't know, I see lots of ads for penis-enlargement pills, muscle-building machines, diet foods pitched at men (they star pro athletes and coaches) etc.
I don't know. I see lots of ads for male sex organ enlargement pills, muscle-building machines, diet foods pitched at men (since the ads star pro athletes), hair-transplant doctors, etc.
The ad I cited was not for breasts, but for hair gel.
When jeans ads start telling men that their penises will never be acceptable, we can talk.
Men already know their penises are not acceptable. Notice how much more comfortable society is with nude females than nude males. It is also why all a woman has to do is point at a man's crotch and laugh to crush him like a bug. Men are mostly incredibly insecure regarding their "endowment", even more so than women with regard to their breasts.
It's still not the message that we're getting from advertising, though.
Also, photo shoots with men are always active, while those with women are always passive.
Men
- Camera at or below chest level
- Arms wide or another open expression
- If smiling, showing teeth
- Looking either directly at the camera or nowhere near it
Women
- Camera from above, diminishing the figure
- More often a closed expression, suggesting that the figure needs to protect herself
- Occasionally smiling, but never showing teeth. Lips often slightly parted, all suggesting a passive role
- Looking near, but not at the camera, thus telegraphing the fact that the camera is a threat and she dare not make eye contact.
Well, I'm glad to see we're up on our pop sociology.
If you'll allow me some editing
Then the comparison would be valid.
But don't worry, we get the same sort of thing about our pecs, as well as our biceps, abs and glutes. The next time you're at the beach or pool, take a look around and notice how many guys don't take their shirts off.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
men make the ads.
NOBODY 2012
...about how all elites eventually become dysfunctional. You have a bunch of professionals who only talk to each other about standards. In order to justify their elitehood they have to make those standards somehow different than what the public at large wants on the grounds that the elites know better. Having then established some sort of trend, it is eventally extended so far beyond the point of absurdity that the public finally rejects them. Then the elites complain about how it's unfair that they're so misunderstood.
What I don't get is why so many women still buy this stuff and don't rebel sooner.
A fashion magazine that promotes fashion which makes normal and healthier-shaped or even plus-sized women look good might be a huge winner.
In family therapy and addictionology, it is axiomatic that the sickest person rules the family.
Check government, the stock market, fashion, etc. Crooks. Liars. Crazies. And now they've made "sick" a vernacular compliment, so they're trying to run our lexicography.
The elites only complain that we "don't understand" when we've caught them.
the perfect side for her to be.
She looks great.
Holding a woman you can break with a good squeeze is just too much to deal with.
But that doesn't mean a woman who is thin is bad looking.
The model on the right is starved.
It looks scary and dangerous.
But beauty has many shapes, many body types and many faces.
Very few women, almost ZERO, IMO, qualify as less than pretty.
I reserve that for those who are just so damaging to their bodies on either end of the weight spectrum.
And women who are mean...I don't care what their body looks like, they are ugly humans.
As a friend of a friend once said, "It's like f***ing a bicycle."
Most models aren't a representation of current beauty trends. No idea why any girl/woman would subject themselves to the most shallow of industries. They are human clotheshangers. Not. Attractive. At. All.
If you're a young woman thinking about getting into the modeling business, go eat and sandwich instead. You might not make the same $$$, but at least you won't look like something I can clean my teeth with.
I don't find either woman in the swimsuit sexy. I prefer women who have some visible toned muscles. Give me a woman who engages in athletics, particularly cycling. Those are the sexy ones (for me). Gail Devers is the sexiest woman alive (if she would just lose the gross fingernails, that is).
Heavy is okay, light is okay, just have some athletic muscles. Even distance running muscles are okay. Of course, it is difficult for American women to have healthy muscular bodies because they spend too much time in cars and in front of T.V.s.
...there's still this problem of seeing women as things to be viewed and dissected visually, right? That whole 'male gaze' thing. I can't help but wonder how many fellows who have responded in this particular thread are in tip-top shape themselves. Not that I'd recommend being so obsessed with physical perfection for the gratification of an unfairly fickle audience, anyhow.
I've never really understood this. As far as I know, all hetero-males find any female who is paying them attention to be attractive. Why movies insist on shooting shots of females interacting with nothing and no one (being peeped at, in effect) is a mystery to me. Maybe I'm just too dense.
The one on the left has thighs like a line backer , the one on the right needs to go on a diet of Big macs . Seriously , my wife is average weight and body for her age and she's not 21 anymore , I love her and am devoted to her , she's "it " for me , she is my life . It's all about her heart , her nature and her mind ... all beautiful . That's where it's at .
not "linebacker' thighs.
Women evolved to carry extra fat in the hips to be used when they become pregnant. It takes a staggering amount of calories to make a healthy baby. Evolutionally speaking, for most of human history if a woman wanted a healthy baby who would live past the 1st year, and assuming she wanted to survive the pregnancy herself, she was better off being chubby.
It seems to me that in the 'olden' days, (70's, 80's) Top Models had a special personality, a unique expression: it was often their faces that sold the clothes. They had fascinating smiles, or ultra-sexy glances, or the Farah Faucett mystery appeal. These days the starved models just look wretched. They don't make me want to buy the product, or even look at the product. Ug again.
The adipose tissue in women's thighs is a secondary repository for, and secretor of, estrogen. In other words, it creates the hormone which makes us most female.
Get used to it, guys.
This is where African-American bluesmen evidence superiority over the white boys. Go to your music provider and check out "Big Leg Woman" and other good pre-'60s blues.
for estrogen!
And for the thighs that carry the adipose tissue for that repository!
Woo-Hooooo!
Those thighs are PERFECT. I mean seriously.
If a woman lets her body fat drop to low all kinds of bad things can happen. You immune system takes a huge hit.
Hope all these young ladies make it through OK.
The idea is that it makes rats live longer so it might do the same with people, but it increases the chances of dying from something like pneumonia first. Recent essay on hplusmagazine.com.
Have you seen those people? They all look horrible - gaunt, pale wrinkled and sickly. And they don't seem to smile or laugh much.
How can anyone conclude otherwise when all the 'sucessful' models looks like they've been stricken with cancer. There ought to be a law that a guy has to be married - to a female - to be a clothes designer and they have to sign an affidavit that they live and breath for the opportunity to bite and fondle delicious ripe female bottoms.
I like to see curvy (read: normal looking) women. I don't want to see bones jutting painfully from tent-like ribcages, women with no hips and their shoulder bones sticking out, and some fashion person saying that that looks good. To me J-Lo is skinny. Really. She's always extolled as "curvy" but the recent issue of V magazine showed what "curvy' is all about. We went from Marilyn to Kate Moss and it went way too far. I know some women are just naturally skinny, but many excessively diet to look like the fashion of the day.
This is sexy to me: http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/slideshow...
Health news about being too damn skinny: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8451674.stm
Having a skeletal system is not painful.
I think they're both beautiful. The skinnier girl is shown in terrible lighting and with a terrible pose. It's not a fair comparison. But in either case I don't think that size is the way to gauge beauty. And I also couldn't care less what Hugh Hefner or Ralph Lauren think is attractive.
The fashion industry is a joke. There a bunch of pompous buffoons in New York and LA who seem to feel that anything that they happen to pull out of their asses must have been anointed by God. The language of their craft is on par with some of the worst bureaucratic language I have ever seen. They treat their employees in the most despicable, dehumanizing ways, whether they be the models, designers, receptionists, or unpaid interns. In my opinion it's one of the worst industries to work for. Whomever wants to be a part of it, more power to them.
As far as ads and magazines photographs, I just don't see how that has any relevance to anyone's reality. Maybe we should be teaching people how to think for themselves instead of writing angry letters to the editor asking them to please stop making us want to be skinny.
Karl Lagersfeld? Wait, is he that imbecile with the fan? You know, high fashion is the strangest sort of practical joke: the only ones who don't get it are the people setting it up!
... and we're still trending to the fatter. Type 2 diabetes is on it's way to becoming the new Type "O".
But we should worry about that fraction of a percent that have a problem with being dangerously underweight? And yes, it is that small a number in America.
Who's the head marketing firm for high fructose corn syrup?
Nice work.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
The lady on the left is effing Beautiful! Far nicer to look at than the bony miserable looking examples that fashion people tell us we should want to see.
The girl on the right needs to start to think about eating again.
The girl on the left needs to make regular stops at the gym. Not diet or get thin, just get some tone. If she wants to be a model. Otherwise she looks fine for a 24-year old. But her legs and arms do look slightly bloated.
As seen in many comments here, being skinny often brings an onslaught of cruel comments. For a community claiming to be open-minded and thoughtful, this is shameful.
Rather than addressing issues like the hazardous chemical food additives marketed to a public already brainwashed with obsession over their body mass, thin people, right here on C&L, are attacked as " emaciated, grotesque, wire coat hanger, mental illness, skeletons, holocaust victim, concentration camp, freak show, criminal, neurotic, psychotic".
A story on NutraSweet, Searle, and Rumsfeld's involvement in this hazardous chemical's approval as a food additive might have been far more productive.
Many years back , a woman appeared on Letterman to promote her book, which blamed a ridiculous range of women's self-image problems on thin women, including despair which leads to continued and widespread obesity. That makes as much sense as blaming good students for the ones who fail, but it does sell books at the expense of the reputations of thin women.
Shortly after, Calista Flockhart appeared on the show and talked about how much cruelty she has endured for years over her body type, though she was quite happy with her body (as am I), as well as completely healthy. She had a message for the exploitative author who blamed her for other women's self-images,
Personally, I wish I'd have such a pleasant invitation.
Well noted, but it won't sink in. The comments largely focus on how disgusting thin women are and how unfuckable that makes them, and a hefty fake concern for anorexics because people really *care*. The author has all but instructed the reader to throw scorn and derision at thin women and the crowd happily plays the game. Remind women their role is to serve as fuck toys, baby factories, and to be visually pleasing to men who want to fuck them, and if they don't fit the mold: blame gay men for confusing their little lady brains with fancy shoes and bright clothing. Uppity women and gay panic: it's neoprogressive!
Hazardous chemical food additives are not the issue here. Didn't you read the article, jorogo? You (and Brain Food) apparently missed the point.
For many years fashion designers, beauty contest judges and reality shows have been dictating to the public what is "sexy", "desirable" and "attractive". Many of us, myself included, find it insulting and offensive that women are categorized in such a way.
Yes, I got the point. Sexy, desirable, and attractive means displaying adequate tits, ass, thigh, and hips so that heterosexual men will want to stick their penis in you. How dare women deviate from the standard!
But you, as well as the author, have made an assumption - an incorrect assumption.
The fact that consumerism has dictated what is desirable is obvious. It applies everywhere there's a buck to be made - not just body type, but your car, clothes, friends, food, music, career, religion, patriotism, the apps on your mobile phone (you DO have a mobile phone, right?) Where you and the author have gone off the rails is when you presume that a thin body type is what's always promoted as attractive - and exclusively for women. That's demonstrably not true.
Do you have any idea how much is spent on boob jobs, collagen injections, and butt enhancements? Why then are only the thin women burdened with the blame for body enhancement marketing? How I wish all those "plus-sized" women stopped setting such a high standard! The photos accompanying this article could not have been selected any better by FOX News itself!
Another point you whiffed on is having given no consideration to the other half of the population. Do you not also find it insulting that a short, bald on top, but hairy-backed man who could never dream of the "erection lasting over four hours" might be a bit insulted and offended by contemporary marketing norms?
Since the responses here have shown a strong attraction by men for women with "substantial" body shape, and others of us, like me, prefer skinny women with tiny tits, I'd say the world was in a natural balance and the only victims are the ones who for whatever selfish reason take this personally and actually bite on all the marketing hype.
Then there are the brain tumors, which apparently seem trivial in light of the market personally insulting our body type, not just our intelligence, as they usually do.
And, to answer your question, I DO NOT have a mobile phone.
...while a lovely woman and a terrific actor, starved herself so badly she became incapable of growing a decent head of hair.
Comments are closed on this entry