Climate Change Scientist: 'They've Given Up Legitimate Debate'
C&L hasn't gotten into the manufactured fray over whether some hacked emails "prove" climate scientists manufactured global warming. We're already intimately familiar with how the right wing works, and we know how rarely (if ever) there's a basis for their outrageous claims. So mostly, we ignore the crazier stuff.
But this is a pretty good interview with one of the scientists whose emails were hacked, and I thought those of you who still prefer actual "facts" might like to read it - and maybe even pass it along to your wingnut friends:
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. - Michael Mann switched from physics to climate science back in graduate school because he thought climate offered a better chance to work "on a frontier."
He got his wish, and now, as the director of Pennsylvania State University's Earth System Science Center, he has experienced an aspect of frontier life more like the Wild West - a bounty on his head.
Irate citizens complained to a Pennsylvania state senator, who demanded that the university conduct a probe into Mann's scientific integrity. That inquiry is ongoing.
This is hardly Mann's first review. His work has been the subject of at least two major investigations by outside experts.
And last week, a message went around his department at the university, notifying everyone that a whistle-blower could make up to $12 million by uncovering fraudulent use of federal grants. One blogger gloated that the offer would lead to Mann's having "a very unhappy new year."
Though he has been accused of dodging the press, Mann, 44, agreed readily to an interview on a bitterly cold day last week. The campus was deserted, as almost everyone was away for winter break. Mann was affable and calm as he answered the assertions of his critics.
The hardest part for him, he said, is having his integrity questioned. Scientists, he said, are "not trained to deal with these kinds of attacks."
"My suspicion is, this has been orchestrated at a high level," he said of the hacking.
It's part of the overall attack on reality. The Republican refuses to accept many unfortunate realities it seems...
Not a good formula in the real world.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
I think you mean anything that's reality.
Climate Change from the beginning, they realized the planet was not warming to late.
Goodnight, Frau Blücher
I don't think it would change any minds of "febrile nitwits". Great term by the way, and isn't that Victoria Jackson at the end? Just kidding - great minds think alike and all.
The same person has several other related videos. They're all good.
There never really was any argument to be had. How can you be against making a better world?
We must stop playing mouse trap with one another.
Is that You?
If this is, the work on your house in Carmel is going along well.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
The science side of the "debate" has given me much to think about, as science often does. I like thinking.
As for the other side of this fiasco, I'm still waiting for them to put some kind of coherent argument together. I admit I'm growing tired of waiting.
It's really sad when science is now treated with such hostility and suspicion, thanks to the right wing war on science. Not only do they dismiss and everything that doesn't support their world view, but they launch incredibly vicious attacks against anyone who tries to fight back with reason.
Stop blaming right wingers; I dislike them as much as you do.
I don't see any science. They say there's science. I would really
like to have it explained like science:
Flow chart:
11
add the same amount
11
results
1.1.1.1.
2 plus 2 equals four
2+2=4
11(add)11 | 1111
Something that can be reproduces all over
the world and get the same result. That's science
I'm hearing and seeing on this web site is religion.
Please do some research. There's ample amounts out there to form your own opinion on.
To think that the invention of the combustion engine and the industrial age hasn't contributed to a global climate change effect is kinda naive.
Coupled with natures own way of contributing to it. And Viola! It's changed.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Can you put more dots in your explanation for
me please?
o think that the invention of the combustion engine and the industrial age hasn't contributed to a global climate change effect.
lol, even if there wasn't combustion engine and the industrial age; we would have global change. "Global Change is Natural".
...can effect the environment more in one month than all the cars and factories have in 100 yrs...
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
And at which time?
Are you talkin Krakatoa? Or Mt St Helens?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human activities.
Scientists have calculated that volcanoes emit between about 130-230 million tonnes (145-255 million tons) of CO2 into the atmosphere every year (Gerlach, 1991). This estimate includes both subaerial and submarine volcanoes, about in equal amounts. Emissions of CO2 by human activities, including fossil fuel burning, cement production, and gas flaring, amount to about 27 billion tonnes per year (30 billion tons) [ ( Marland, et al., 2006) - The reference gives the amount of released carbon (C), rather than CO2, through 2003.]. Human activities release more than 130 times the amount of CO2 emitted by volcanoes--the equivalent of more than 8,000 additional volcanoes like Kilauea (Kilauea emits about 3.3 million tonnes/year)! (Gerlach et. al., 2002)
Take a look at the numbers you're presenting:
Annual CO2 emissions due to volcanic activities: 145 to 255 million tons.
Annual CO2 emissions due to human activity: 30 billion tons
30,000,000,000>255,000,000
That's nearly 118x more human emissions than volcanic emissions. That's 11,800% more human emissions than volcanic emissions.
but i'll go with Milqetoast on this one, just for shits and giggles. You and your damned numbers! Pshaw!
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
...the atmosphere when they erupt.
If you had read what I said (effect the environment)
you might realise that I did not say make it warmer...
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
I did take a look at the numbers I was presenting, Andy. I was posting this to dispute milqetoast's assertion that "volcanoes can effect (sic) the environment more in one month than all the cars and factories have in 100 yrs..."
I didnt say volcanoes make it warmer!
They make it cooler by stopping sunlight!
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
If they release large amounts of CO2, as volcanoes near subduction zones do, then they make the atmosphere warmer.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
You're saying it actually cools the planet.
global cooling. hmmmmmmm/
So, i guess I can presume that all those Atomic experiments and the Nucleeeerrr ones. Could have contributed.
Is that what yer sayin?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Actually there was a period of global cooling around the 6th century making the summer growing season shorter, and winters colder and more inclement due to a volcano (they think) erupted, throwing so many particulates into the atmosphere that it caused the global cooling.
But the problem is it's the particulates from our factories that are misleading us as to the severity of global climate change by protecting us from some of the effects, but we can't depend on such a curtain since it is so lethal to the very young and the very old.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
was that "volcanoes can effect (sic) the environment more in one month than all the cars and factories have in 100 yrs," but the scientific data show that human acivity produces 130 times the emission of volcanoes. So, even if these emissions are cooling the planet -- which they're not -- your contention that volcanoes produce more than humans have in 100 years is false. This "theory" was debunked way back in the 80s when Reagan advanced it.
Do some reading, the science has been done. Stop reading news accounts and read science journals. If you want science then show me the data from the people that say global warming isn't happening. They have none. Their whole argument boils down to "just because I said so". Global warming is a hoax, just because I said so, the scientists data is bad, just because I said so.
When they name scientists that are deniers invariably they are NOT climatologists and have no studies of their own to refute the data, why is that? Why is there not a single study that demonstrates that global warming is not occurring? Show it to me or STFU, it's not my religion, it's a scientific fact.
I love it when you talk like this.
oh please!
And prove it too us. It should be simple to do. If, as you say the facts are in.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
that global warming isn't happening. That is not disputable given the accuracy of the meteorological record . They are arguing that global warming is not caused by human behavior. That is what is wrong. There is an increasingly large amount of evidence that this is so.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
melamine in the milk, corruption in the CIA, chemical dumping, political conspiracy, land mines, floride in the water, lead in toys, the banking industry, mercury in our vaccines and tooth fillings, aspartame, elephant poaching, and whale hunting, the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, overfishing, and (tiger penis soup) is (ARE!) what the environmental problems are...
a "carbon tax" (paid to a international entity) and "carbon credit trading schemes" (for wallstreet) are not the answer!
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
Um, that's John Birch Society conspiracy nonsense. There is no evidence to support the idea that fluoridation does anything but prevent tooth decay. There is, likewise no evidence that the minuscule amounts of mercury once used as a preservative in vaccines had any adverse health effects. Which just goes to show that suspicion about science is hardly limited to the right.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
...mercury in yer mouth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnQ-T7oiA
mmmmmm...good?
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
You could be talkin shit. :)
What is your conceptual, continuity?
(I just hate Panetta) ...and he was a big lobbyist!
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
For who?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
govt contractors...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1233780626020...
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
You're kidding. Right?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
But return to the other thread.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
that the narrator of that piece asserts that "proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not necessary" in the first minute of that video. I'll accept a more reasonable standard. How about any proof at all that health threatening amount of mercury can leach out of an amalgam filling. If there was the tiniest shred of statistical evidence to support that claim every dental association and individual dentist would be up to their eyeballs in lawsuits.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is a criminal case instruction to a jury about to retire for deliberation.
Civil is a preponderance of evidence.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...and as wrong as can be. Where's your proof
that fluoride and mercury are good for you?
Your the reason this country is speeding forwards
third world status.
There's more studies saying that there bad then
good. None of them are natural to the body; the are
foreign elements.
...please.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
.
Paracelsus née Phillippus Aureolus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim used mercury to great effect on venereal disease sores.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
As for fluoride it's been shown to be an effective oral dentifrice, helping teeth remain strong and relatively cavity free.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Show me the science!
How are yours?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/safety/system...
I really don't. But compared to the teeth of people in Europe. My teeth are good.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
birth control in the water.
Go check the (remaining) teeth of the people in the trailer parks, the projects and the working poor burbs, the people who cant afford bottled water and have to drink the flurinated stuff.
Who you are talking about are those whose lifestyle doesn't necessarily do good for their teeth: alcohol, coffee, tea, cigarettes, and because of their impecuniousness status are bereft of necessitous dental care, which include fluoride treatments.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I saw his comment before leaving for the grocery store.
Here anudder fer ya:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/283...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
of tootpaste it says...
if swallowed...contact a poison control center.
(if your tooth paste has fluoride) I dare you to look next time you go to the bathroom...
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
it says "if more than the amount used for brushing is accidentally swallowed..." I think their concern is for the alcohol and sodium lauryl sulfate, not the fluoride.
used to drink mouthwash for the alcohol content...
Mr. Drunky Freshbreath!
homeless people doing that. Bad for the stomach, but good for the breath.
damages the environment. The burning of coal dumps radiation and heavy metals like mercury into the environment. Private profits and public poison.
The sheer malice and contempt these Gasbags have for their listeners is staggering. What will these idiot-non-believers think (if they can think) when they are directly, adversely affected by our Planet Melting?
Need I ask? No. We all know they'll squeal that Liberals Caused It! And iff they can, they'll burn Liberals alive in hopes of appeasing their malevolent God who is probably torching the whole planet to punish "sinners". Or something.
into someone's computor illegal? Where is the investigation and how come the talking heads aren't demanding the arrest of these criminals.
Only someone like you would arrest a hero.
To bring into light; perhaps this is why America
is becoming so dark. We no longer know the difference.
.
This person a hero?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
The science is on going.
The subject matter is large.
People want to think this is a simple matter.
Are we putting the right variables in; are we leaving out
others?
Could HAARP have played a role here?
HAARP - google it!
Your assertions Max.
It's incumbent on you to provide the contrary proof Max.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Jesse Ventura's new show!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh2gbJA898s
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYsKo0byArQ
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abT5VZ3cUr4
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I'll talk to him aboot this.
And yes. I do talk to him.
He has a house close to mine in Baja.
But to be honest, I won't talk to him for quite awhile.
But ya never know. I may end up down there sooner than later. :)
What is your conceptual, continuity?
unless you are listening for the crickets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G065Fggr1fk
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7elJmji7l4&fe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtc9a4TgRus
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
.
It smells like industrial espionage to me since the release of the illegal hacking transcripts happened approximately a week before the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change in Copenhagen.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
global warming is a hoax and we create a better world for nothing?
Big Daddy. You know what that does to the concern trolls.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Can't help it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pCZ5E5tn4I
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
where it's due: http://www.bradblog.com/Images/JoelPett_Clima...
Hasa Diga Eebowai
...the ultimate "get" for many of the nanny-nanny naysayers on climate change. That's why they're after him.
This is the logic - well, okay, not "logic" but I don't have another word because "thinking" doesn't work either - they're using:
1. Attack Mann.
2. Thereby discredit Mann.
3. Thereby discredit the "hockey stick."
4. Thereby discredit global warming.
It makes no sense, logically or scientifically, since this all has to do with reconstructions of past temperatures, not the changes in more recent ones, nor does it mean anything in terms of the effects of temperature changes, regardless of when they might have happened. But it's the way the naysayers approach things.
If you'd like to see what the "hockey stick" graph or the "spaghetti plot" look like, check this post (yes, it's one of mine) and scroll down; they're toward the bottom.
And if anyone is interested in my own take on the emails, that's here.
MythBusters! I reject your reality and substitute my own! How can there be global 'warming' when it's so damn cold outside?? It never fails...someone always uses that argument every winter. Sean InsHannity did just a few days ago. I want to know how much money it took to pay off the polar icecap and all those glaciers to start melting!
Government + the Federal Reserve = organized crime
ya, but they're going to really freak out when they do have a hot winter.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
This sounds like a job for...
Sat, 01/09/2010 - 14:00 — JerryO
_________________________________________________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72rYHuWidSM
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/152720/...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Good Science and engineering usually has a flow
chart for understandability.
2nd "Climate Change"
I hate the name because it describes something
that is normal, throughout history deserts become
oceans and oceans become deserts in time.
Why the global infrastructure through the central bank?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_heRPK9TU4
Seems to be the rich guy socking it to the little guy.
When where all in the same boat and working together;
I'll start believing.
I'm certainly no right winger.
one thing that's keeping us cool is airplane contrails. Really. There is a detectable increase in temperature on days that airplanes don't fly. The best example is the shift in temperatures in Sept. 2001 during the no fly order.
you would have to believe in Gaea to expect our industries not to upset the planet. the things we do to the earth happen as in an instant to Gaea.
If i believe in Gaia will the Christians attack me? Gaia could be real in the sense that any form of self sustaining function whatsoever that would come along after a millienia will by it's very nature stick around, and around. This would be like a giant red spot, except on a vastly higher scale that involves the genetics of all species combined. the evolution of climate is the evolution of life. then we come along with our wonderful brains and pretty much throw a wrench into the works, and now we see what happens...
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Now that they have identified a number of earth like planets they have discovered that earth is a rather small earth like planet. Most of the earth like planets they have discovered are a lot bigger like about five times or more the surface to explore.
I've always though how bloody small the earth is when i fly somewhere, considering this is all we have, ever, except for space exploration. I bet the other bigger earth like planets are a lot more stable than this little place.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
mars polar cap is melting too! (although it is a smaller planet)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/...
don't worry though...it's just the sun going through phases!
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
...you should read the entire article.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
"Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, added that "the idea just isn't supported by the theory or by the observations." "
and
"The conventional theory is that climate changes on Mars can be explained primarily by small alterations in the planet's orbit and tilt, not by changes in the sun."
are just annoying and superfluous information, besides, you have to go to page two to read them!
:D
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
is delicious!
on Mars bear no resemblance to the effect of solar radiance or sunspot activity on earth. Sun spot and the attendant solar wind can deflect cosmic radiation from the earth and therefore reduce nucleation of water droplets that form clouds. This does cause the planet to become warmer as the albedo is decreased. Mars has no significant atmosphere and no clouds. The same mechanism cannot operate on Mars. This effect on earth is well documented and taken into account in climate studies.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The wingnuts don't engage in legitimate debate on any subject. They don't care about reality. The corporations feed the talking heads what to say and the ignorant masses spew it back out, just like they learned to do in school.
A teacher explained to me a long time ago how our school system is set up to produce people that repeat back what they are told, show up on time, and don't question authority. The whole right wing is the embodiment of that idea.
Frank Luntz
Frank Luntz
Climate Change
it all kind of reminds me how quickly everyone adopted the 'memo' meme when referring to:
Downing Street Minutes
Well one can hope the GOP is taken over by Log House Republicans.
Then they'll become known as the FOP
And I'm not sure I want to know what a coxcomb is for.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
eeegaads!
What is your conceptual, continuity?
who deny man's impact on the environment...
please, explain to me
why are cities always warmer than the rural areas surrounding them?
Is it magic?
I do understand how people are easily confused and misled on larger systems, since most people who argue against global warming can't see beyond the nose on their own face (example: "lol... it are cold now[in winter time, d'oh]... hahahah nubs!") but really, please, explain to me how man does not affect the micro-environment, since according to their line of thinking, man does not affect his environment at all.
why are cities always warmer than the rural areas surrounding them?
Cuz that's the way Jeebus wants it.
I knew there was an answer, praise His name!
Hallelujah !
What is your conceptual, continuity?
I'm sub-sub-genius.
one sub too sub.
sob...
We'll get Ysbaddaden to anoint you. All will be good. :P
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Christ comes from Christos meaning the anointed one.
It comes from the Mystery Religions, particularly said to be from the Bacchanalians.
And since the Bacchanalians were considered a homosexual religion
Makes one wonder if their chrism was jism.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
playing Call of Cthulhu rpg back in the '80s.
Oh you saw my first post, huh?
The FSM is a sissy version of Cthulhu.
And he probably rides the little pink unicorn too.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
but that little pink unicorn makes a great idol on my beach blanket.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_C0XNoEaLvJo/SLbFHD4...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDesGtp-JII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGVD3NmRTUU&fe...
I would suggest turning off the "music." It ain't the "original."
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Say it ain't sOOOOOooooooooo!
i'm devastated........
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Did he get any on um ?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
pass the frop.
Primarily because glass, steel and concrete reflect back the sunlight.
During the winter they can feel colder due to the wind chill factor of winds blowing in what are essentially canyons.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
than outlying areas.
It gets trapped.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
air and cities have a sick S&M / Bondage co-dependent relationship.
what blog is this again?
Wind has no effect on thermometers. The temperature is what it is- it's objective. What it feels like to humans is relative- that's subjective.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
to the asphalt.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
man can't affect his environment!
you said so!
did I ever say something as fatuous as that?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
perhaps you should revisit some of your dribblings in this very thread?
grade school and learn to read properly.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
zing!
I'm sure it was NOT your writing that was in error, clearly I just need to go back to grade school.
Thank you so much, sir.
a factual error in one of my posts.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I am not your editor?
you can't.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
it is possible that I misunderstood what you meant in your 14:51 post.
There were a lot of statements negating statements that negate other statements.
I think the two of you are on the same side of the issue.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
of my negative is my friend?
:)
What is your conceptual, continuity?
aye
I
apologize.
Wait...Yes!...Or no...maybe?
Damn, now I'm confused.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
What was this thread aboot?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Got any? I'm outta gas, and the wife and kids are in the car. We gotta get back to Kalamazoo.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Very nice Merlot.
damn.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
versus Cthulhu 2010
now in 3D
please try to keep up.
It's these damn shoelaces.
my face hurts.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
the internets.
I sit, gasping for air, in awe.
D'OH ... damn shoelaces.:)
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Where laughter is the best medicine.:)
Have a good one Pete.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
.
Sat, 01/09/2010 - 15:53 — mudshark
What was this thread aboot?
_______________________________
Then my job here is done, ma'am...(ptooie).
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
2 petes, 1 mind.
In fundamentalists circles, so to speak, the technique is called call-and-response.
You see that with those street corner idiots. They always have one plant acting like he's one in the crowd being convinced.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
seeing the same time stamps as you and if I don't know which post I made was unclear but for the record we do nothing as a species that does not affect the planet.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I misread you.
I apologize for the snotty remark about reading.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I was being rather snotty myself.
taking a page from our GOPer friends, I blame my head cold.
taking frequent showers and flushing. water's the next big crisis.
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