The people who should be worried about going to hell are the bastards who sent these soldiers over there for no good reason, and then refuse to pay for the help they need when they come back:
JOINT BASE LEWIS MCCHORD, Wash. - A soldier's widow says his fellow Army Rangers wouldn't do anything to help him before he took his own life - after eight deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Army found Staff Sgt. Jared Hagemann's body at a training area of Joint Base Lewis McChord a few weeks ago.
A spokesman for the base tells KOMO News that the nature of the death is still undetermined. But Staff Sgt. Hagemann's widow says her husband took his own life - and it didn't need to happen.
"It was just horrible. And he would just cry," says Ashley Hagemann.
Ashley says her husband Jared tried to come to grips with what he'd seen and done on his eight deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"And there's no way that any God would forgive him - that he was going to hell," says Ashley. "He couldn't live with that any more."
More U.S. soldiers and veterans have died from suicide than from combat wounds over the past two years.
And as a special way of thanking those who served, Texas Republicans want to make it harder for young, homeless and traumatized veterans to vote.
F@ck U Obama...F@ck U America! Thanks for nothing.
I'd really like to be able to make an excuse for Obama. I really would but I'm cursed with integrity and it sucks. So I have no choice but to agree with you.
These are his wars now, far easier fixes than the economy, which is only arguably his.
There will be additional wars under his watch. Obama works for the U.N., not the U.S.
Ya, but you know how much easier it is to start wars than it is to end them. And don't forget who has the real power here - the MIC. Eisenhower was right - once enabled, the misguided power of the MIC will persist. It will take an enormous struggle to end the misguided power that the MIC has attained.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
is for the contented classes who support the mic's political puppets to feel some of the pain
when the sons and daughters of the wealthy start dying in irrational and illegal wars, you will soon hear "what the hell are we doing there?!" trumpeted through the land
Just wait 'til the automatic cuts kick in when, unpredictably, no agreement can be reached by the super congress and veteran's benefits have to go under the axe to cut "defense" spending.
It just baffles me that Senator Obama could recognize the folly and futility of going into Iraq, but President Obama just seems to love it enough to double down. Sorry boys and girls, thanks for defending Iraqistan and protecting our freedoms and so forth, but now you're on your own.
RIP SSgt. Hagemann, hope it was worth it.
most part. His 9th deployment would mean he'd spent the better part of ten years killing innocent people. I'd say for him and his family, no, it wasn't worth it.
And whatever happened to the policy of there being three deployments at the max? Or that you had to have at least equal time away from combat? Those ideas were tossed around a number of years ago, I guess they were never enacted.
It's no longer enough to go after Bush, Cheney etc... even the dupes fabricating evidence at the CIA need to be tried. Some time in the future the U.S. will pay for what's it's done - and no country will come to our defense.
But he was only 25 years old.
Couldn't have been 10 years.
...Rich stated, "...he'd spent the better part of ten years...", "the better part" meaning "the majority of".
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
It is easy to start wars. It is hard to end them.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
going again, bet all your wars would be done quick.All those chicken hawks would become doves awful quick
for the longest time. If we want to stop all these disgusting wars of choice, we must re-institute the draft. As long as we have a voluntary army, there will be nothing to stop the war profiteers from forcing kids to fight until they go mad and kill themselves like this poor dude.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
How would a draft stop the rapacious greed? Only if the draft took the richest, whitest kids first.
Sort of a simple measuring stick I came up with when we were being lied to.
Tim Pawlenty announced an end to his presidential candidacy Sunday after what he called a "disappointing" third place finish in the Ames, Iowa, straw poll.
The former Minnesota governor said he had hoped to get a jolt from the preference poll that is an early indicator of a candidate's potential strength in the primary season.
"I'm ending my campaign for president," Pawlenty told ABC's "This Week," noting that he wished the scenario had been different but voters were looking for something else.
He's just another repuglican Ash Whole!
He will NOT be missed!
This is disgusting. We need serious proposals for a draft, to allow political cover for a full withdrawal.
Another SSGT KIAd a month ago was serving his ELEVENTH tour. Mind boggling. I thought three and four tours were horrific.
suddenly, he's ousted from Ways and Means as a result of ethical violations.
One has to wonder if the draft was reinstated, how many spawn of the ReThugs would have had to enlist and go be "real" Patriots....
is to rethink our entire foreign policy.
The Republicans don't want them to vote. They just want them to risk their lives fighting the rich man's wars. War only benefits the wealthy and the powerful. For the rest of us, not at all.
Bingo
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
It has become like job rotations. Disgusting is putting it mildly.
Obama does have the power to end these wars.
why my comments are posting as replies.
They're posting as separate comments. But why are you posting one comment after another?
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
He'll be listed under "friendly fire."
Christianity is a religion for losers. Instead of taking responsibility for his actions, this sad person relied upon, and feared his God. Did he have some kind of revelation, that there are some things for which you just can't be forgiven? Don't Christians believe that there is NO sin God will not forgive? What, is this guy Jewish? Now there is a people born to feel guilty. Would a Muslim say, Allah wills it? The common thread running through all the monotheisms is reliance on or submission to "God." But the passing of responsibility to an entity whose existence is supported by a complete absence of evidence and mounting proof to the contrary renders such people helpless to act from true will. They need big doses of the mottos of such organizations as the Cairo Mystery School, which taught that all scripture is shit: "Nothing is true; all is permitted," and even of the Theosophists, their founder Mme. Blavatsky stating quite correctly: "There is no religion higher than the truth."
"Respect for the rights of others is peace." --Benito Juarez
Saying that "God wouldn't forgive him" is a roundabout way of saying he couldn't live with the pain of the memories and images of war.
Don't Christians believe that there is NO sin God will not forgive?
No, actually. According to Christians, there are unforgivable sins. Ever heard of a place called Hell?
Oh, and:
their founder Mme. Blavatsky stating quite correctly: "There is no religion higher than the truth."
Yeah, right before she preached HER weird version of religion. Quoting one religion to counter another is just playing checkers.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
Daemon est Deus Inversus. You can learn a lot by reading Blavatsky, and you don't risk being accused of succumbing to her religion in order to quote from her writings. The woman was a genius.
"Respect for the rights of others is peace." --Benito Juarez
Depending on which brand of Christianity you follow, of course. But generally, you can be forgiven for any sin, as long as you repent - hell is only for those that refuse to admit their wrong-doing and ask for forgiveness.
When do we start to hold military volunteers partly accountable for their own actions? Nobody forces them to enlist. These stories are tragic and our leaders need to be held accountable, but at the end of the day the chicken hawk generals would be nowhere if millions of willing soldiers didn't fall for the "patriotism" and "support the troops" lies that prevail throughout red state America.
America would be better off if more people did not volunteer to the military. But Red State America is fully bought into this mistake we have called starting wars for political causes. When do we hold those that volunteer -- or their families -- accountable? Never, because we are beaten up by the same "rah rah red white and blue" lies as they are. Too few have the true courage needed to stand up to these lies.
When do we start to hold military volunteers partly accountable for their own actions?
The day no one is ever forced into military service by poverty, lack of opportunity, hunger, need to feed a family, etc. I don't believe in soldier-worship either, but you're talking out of an extremely narrow view of why they enlist. It's not just "patriotism" and "support the troops".
America would be better off if we re-instituted the draft. If we can't get rid of the standing army concept (which I think is the REAL problem), then compulsory service would cut WAY down on all this "back in the saddle for you" bullshit. Plus it would give the citizens of this country a REASON to object to all this crap, and not in a nice way, either.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
is to blame bad decisions on "the economy." This is America, there's always options. I never enlisted, I grew up in a small midwest town where your job options were get born rich or enlist.. I worked odd jobs for years and didn't really 'launch' my life til about age 30 after several failed attempts. Yet I never once for a second considered joining the corrupt institution that is our military. If I can proudly declare I was bright enough to stay out, why do people that fall for the lies get to claim it was all everyone else's fault? We didn't even have the internet back then to gain access to information like one can today. With all the information out there, why isn't a kid that enlists able to account for his own actions?
I feel very very badly for this guy that suicided after realizing too late what he'd done. Half the army ought to join him from the sound of how things go over there. But more to the point, if you believe in these lies, you get what you deserve when you enlist. Nobody protected my freedom killing brown people whose only crime was get born in the wrong country.
These aren't heroes, these are real people who make real decisions. They carry out the policies of elected officials, who need to be held to account.
enlisted because we came from poor areas with no realistic opportunities for the future. We were young, tough, and willing to go through basic at a time of no war for the chance of learning a skill (yes you can), college tuition, homeowner programs etc... in short, the GI Bill.
On thing you would count on as a service member is that if you were to be sent into combat it would be for a REAL threat. So you actually would be protecting the U.S. Not some bullshit excuse proffered by the village idiot for you to kill and be killed for corporate profit.
We can do that when there are decent jobs and educational opportunities that are again wide spread. For many coming out of high school, there is no option.
While it is true that the Rangers, SEALS, etc. volunteer for that more dangerous (and apparently way more used service) it does not mean that they should be used over and over again until they either get killed or kill themselves. They are not responsible for that, the commander-in-chief is. The Obomber.
I can't say it enough. The Obomber is where the buck stops, that is VERY clear in the chain of command. He could order an end to these outrageous deployments between lunch anf tea time today if he wanted to. The special forces are being over used to fight the guerrilla war. Time to get the hell out.
and it is voluntary to refrain from continuing to be a ranger. I realized upon enlistment out of high school that I knew just about nothing about life, death, and the army so I declined special forces, ranger, and airborne. I was too mentally weak for the beginning stages of the regular army- infantry too. But I honorably served and was honorably discharged.
and it's downright convoluted once it is introduced to trauma ... but it remains unlikely that sgt hagemann set down the path of enlisting and becoming a ranger with the intention of finding such despair that he could not longer bear being alive ... and no matter the particular failings and weaknesses of his decision making process, there can be no doubt that 8 tours of duty and an impending 9th quite understandably brought him to the breaking point
those of us who take the right fork in the road or for whatever reason manage to survive the journey down a wrong one, are simply lucky ... and, hopefully, we have not lost so much of our humanity in the process that we cannot feel complete and unreserved compassion for a fellow human being who has suffered so much and lost everything
yes, luck may be involved. No, the humanity is not lost. But the responsibility was.
but don't worry, no one is holding you responsible ... now can you express sympathy before blame?
believe me he tried to leave em he told em he was done SEVERAL TIMES they did not let him out They threatened him to stay in they tried bribing they did everything and all he wanted was OUT
that's why so many rich kids enlist ... no, wait, THEY DON'T! mum and dad send them to college, debt free, to party for four years and/or make connections for their future, brilliant careers ... poor kids don't want educations, so the g.i. bill has no appeal, and they don't want to join some sort of frat and maybe connect with other young people, so military comradery wouldn't be at all attractive, and just because the military is their only hope of a CAREER, that's not why disadvantaged youths enlist ... they enlist to kill brown people, even the ones who are brown themselves ... that's just how evil and unambitious poor people are!
Bring back the draft and watch how fast these illegal occupations end. When the politician's & the wealthiest of the wealthy's kids are subject to draft the wars will end. How about closing down some of those 1000+ military bases scattered around the world. Bring these kids home and make jobs for them by using the money to rebuild the infrastructure of this country. Makes more sense than waiting for one bridge at a time to collapse.
I'm sure most of the wealthy have homes in other countries or at least yachts that they can put all their spawn on.
rich punk white kids got deferred. Look over modern day Republicans over age 50. Nearly all of them got deferred service or cush local national guard service like Bushie did. Ironically enough, most Democrats actually served, many with honor. But there's no network regularly beating those facts into the heads of the easily led Americans. Just one that regularly calls all Democrats traitors and all Republicans heroes.
...didn't have a draft to face...
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
it's not needed. They can hire soldiers of fortune to do their dirty work and there's plenty of kids that are willing to sign up for one reason or another (can't afford an education, can't find a job, no skills. etc)
Like you say, a draft means THEIR kids are eligible too and THEY don't want that.
Their homeworld was a place called Earth, located in an uninteresting part of the galaxy. They had an expression: pride goeth before a fall. Their pride was their undoing. I know. I was there....They did not listen, of course. Arrogant men never do.
Calls to bring back the draft by people who are against the evil of war is about as evil and hypocritical as it gets. They're willing to force people to go to war to engage in the very evil they claim to be against. They're willing to force young men who are adamantly against war; willing to force the children of people who've spent their lives fighting against war, as a cynical way to stop it. Pure, unadulterated idiotic evil.
...the public would have supported the invasion of Iraq if their kids and grandkids were going to get drafted in order to fight there?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Of course. Many millions of them did. Don't you remember how easy it was to stir the public into a frenzy of fear because of mushroom clouds, drones, al qaeda affiliation and 9/11 revenge? As Hermann Goering said: “Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.”
This may not necessarily go for the poster I'm responding to, but don't you people watch the American public? Don't you elsewhere proclaim that the sheeple so readily follow our leaders' bidding?
or know your history
what ended the vietnam war? young people who didn't want to join the military and, yes, kill, as well as the families and friends of young people who were forced to kill and were killed themselves
whether or not i personally take up a gun and fight (which i would never do, and would be willing to go to jail as a consequence), i have the blood of hundreds of thousands of afghanis and iraqis on my hands ... my tax dollars pay for it, and will continue to pay for it so long as the comfortable classes who control our government pay no personal price
if you are against war, as am i, you should be for the draft, in order to force more rational military decisions from the chickenhawks in washington and the people who pull their strings
"what ended the vietnam war? young people who didn't want to join the military and, yes, kill, as well as the families and friends of young people who were forced to kill and were killed themselves"
So young people protesting from the 60s on is what caused them to end the war nearly 10 years later? Or was it like LBJ's realization that it was not winnable and a financial/cultural/military drain that was slowly draining us? Or a combination? So institute a draft and lo and behold, 10 years of innocent people getting killed and maimed against their wishes is worth it . . . for YOU. Now that's a noble position: you're perfectly willing to sacrifice the lives of others to achieve your goal. Doesn't that sound familiar?
"if you are against war, as am i, you should be for the draft, in order to force more rational military decisions from the chickenhawks in washington and the people who pull their strings"
It all makes sense now! Decades of working against war and bloodshed, raising young kids who are against the same, and I should just greet their drafting/imprisonment with a "c'est la vie."
well, that would still be you
troop levels in vietnam were not raised dramatically until 1964, and it wasn't until the late sixties that draftees represented a significant percentage of the troops (by the end of '68, draftees represented 38% of all american troops in vietnam) ... and the deadly tet offensive did not take place until 1968, at which point war protests reached critical mass, prompting nixon to submit his peace plan in 1969 ... peace negotiations took several years, as did the withdrawal, which was completed in '73
without a draft, lord knows when it would have ended, if ever
but in lieu of a modern draft, be sure that you keep paying your taxes to keep the killing going ... indefinitely ... because the people making the decisions and their supporters will never lose a loved one to an i.e.d. or to a war trauma-induced suicide
I note you neglect to mention the Pentagon Papers.
The figures you post are nothing new to me. I grew up during that time and remember the issues vividly. Nixon did not submit a peace plan because of protests; he believed we could win the war until 1968, while it was becoming clear to many in the public that we could not win. At the same time, Nixon's -- and the general public's -- distaste for the "hippy protesters" wasn't particularly popular.
And also remember this: any draft would have a built-in escape hatch for those who send us to war, just like they build in an escape hatch for their retirements and for their healthcare.
Again: forcing people to choose between murder and prison is an evil, and an unconstitutional one at that. As a panacea for war it is nothing less than delusional as we've all watched first hand how readily the American people will froth at the mouth with hatred for a manufactured villain and how we will cower in our shoes at the threat of a pipsqueak. The Goering quote in my other post is spot on: “Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.”
to fight, he/she is still having people killed in their name and with their tax dollars ... and if you have a better solution for stopping the slaughter, i am all ears ... please, please let us know what it is, because the killing needs to stop
but the historical record remains that the draft had a profound effect upon domestic opposition to vietnam, and barring your brilliant alternative idea, it seems the only way to force the elites without loved ones on the battle field to take the human costs of war serious AND stop them from launching us into the next one
oh, and more on topic, if the elites had children serving, i'll bet you dollars-to-donuts that the multiple tours/stop losses and shitty v.a. care and crappy base schools and electrocuting showers would end tomorrow
"if you have a better solution for stopping the slaughter,"
I'll ask YOU a question: who are you to say it's okay for anyone's kids to be drafted? What gives you that right? NOTHING. You don't have the right to demand that ANYONE'S kids get drafted. Draft or no draft, the elite will start wars. I mentioned that earlier and gave examples of why, but that's just a bit too inconvenient a truth for you to acknowledge apparently.
As far as elites and children serving: their children WILL NOT SERVE! Is that so hard to understand? They will write in a way to either keep their kids out entirely, ensure their kids become officers, or ensure that they escape the brunt of the action. Forcing anyone to submit to military service is nothing more than slavery.
... no alternative ideas for ending the killing
Interestingly enough this young mans obituary in the Modesto Bee and his local Riverside newspaper stated that "he died unexpectedly" at the army base and that he "loved the army". Something doesn't seem right here.
standard obituary-speak. When have you ever seen a newspaper obituary that stated baldly that somebody killed himself?
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
is that he was facing his ninth deployment and he didn't see any end in sight. It's very possible that the man was a good soldier that loved the army at one time, but time and experience had wearied him to the point that he gave up all hope.
Of all the crimes committed in America's name overseas, here's a true hero that realized it and took action.
I wonder how long before we'll start holding Obama accountable for his campaign promise to end the war. Its been 2 1/2 years Barry. What the freaking hell is needed, an act of congress? Oh well that might explain everything then right.
Obama was elected to lead, not be beat up by the idiot red staters. If he'd ended the war like he said he would, this soldier (and about 1000 others killed since 1/20/2009) would now be alive.
Where's Olbermann to keep THAT countdown?
It is time - AGAIN - to start coordinating huge protests and I don't mean the kind where people do damage to property, hurt each other and cause mass confusion. I mean huge protests that are ongoing, day after day, week after week, month after month - coordinated so they can continue. Politicians know people are angry and their staff probably delete most e-mails that are negative, so the gutless wonder never sees what is said. They don't worry about the people, they can't see or hear them - it's time to change that scene - make the gutless wonders scared for their jobs, the money they're getting from outsiders who want to buy and take over the government and these gutless wonders will cover their asses and knowing and SEEING these angry voters day after day, knowing they're not going away - maybe things will slowly change - protest the lobbyists, too.
Great big massive protests. Which the media will then ignore, so everyone else in the country can remain blissfully ignorant of them. Really, what do you think has been happening for the last eight years?
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
Doesn't mean they shouldn't take place. They will have an enormous effect if we are persistent. People will start to wonder about their 'news' media.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
My comments should NOT be posting one right after another. They should be posting as "replies". I clicked the "Reply" to Excelsior's comment and instead of my comment replying as it should have, it went to the top of the page.
My heart goes out to that soldier's family. Obama decided to continue Bush's shitstorm. The bullshit wars and the shitty economy. He owns this.
NOBODY 2012
I doubt the previous EIGHT DEPLOYMENTS had nothing to do with his state of mind to your point of view and it's all the fault of that darned black guy in the WHITE house...
Obama said he'd end the war in 2008. We're now almost 3/4 of the way through 2011. And still the fighting continues.
At some point Obama does own the continued fighting. I wonder what he's waiting for. Or is this just another empty-suit promise he made and didn't deliver on.
were on Obama's watch. Yeah, he's not responsible though. Once upon a time there used to be a plaque on the President's desk that read "The Buck Stops Here". I wonder what Obama's says?
"The Buck Stops Here". I wonder what Obama's says?
"How can I help you?" if a Rethug walks in the room. On the other side is "How can I insult you?" to be flipped around if a Progressive/Dem walks in the room.
No, it is the MIC that owns these wars. As Eisenhower said, the rise of misplaced power "will persist".
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
"The people who should be worried about going to hell are the bastards who sent these soldiers over there for no good reason,..."
Would this man have died and would soldiers be "over there" if no one voted?
What happened to We The People?
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
We have been overruled by the MIC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE58Y2LETAs
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Tell me ObomberBots!
Going on his 9th depolyment. How can they play Russian roulette with these soldiers lives? Because that is exactly what it is. Like Bush, Obomber never served, not as a clerk, a JAG or certainly not in Infantry. Yet he is willing to keep sending soldiers to their deaths--for NO good reason. And we should vote for him again? No way, not possible ever again.
Obama didn't start these wars, Bush and Cheney did for the MIC. The MIC is in control.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
so when the soldiers keep coming back alive, we just ship them back out to die...
It's sickening. I can only imagine what emotianl emotional trauma troops like this will face- I read the suicide rate is very, very high
When will these wars end?
Most homless people are veterans, many Vietnam war vets who fell on hard times, turned to alchohol to numb the pain of their memories- I think we are creatung a whole generation of vets that will wind up on the streets. Given that the government doesn't care about the homeless, things will only get worse.
Its odd the war mongers who claim to love the troops despise the vets who are emotionally scarred bu the experince of war
Ann McGeehan, director of the Secretary of State's elections division, said last week at a seminar in Austin that photo ID cards issued by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs are not acceptable forms of military ID to vote, according to a recording provided by the Texas Democratic Party.
Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/a...
No doubt Ann has a 'support out troops' bumper sticker and Jesus fish on her tax payer paid for Lexus Mini Van.
God bless this fellow, hes in a better place. This is hell and the devils are everywhere
The ethics of the military leadership is the same as the corporate board of Verizon. What frigging general would stand for a system that deploys their people 9 times to these bizarre and hidden wars? Answer: the creeps we have running our military now.....henchmen, career opportunists, covert war industry representatives....
If they aren't killing them with deployments, they're killing them with depleted uranium exposure, vaccines, bad food, faulty electric wiring in the bases...on and on...and they can do it because in a nation of 300 million plus, they've kidnapped only a small percentage.
Who should we be angry with if it isn't the Commander-in-Chief? Tell me?
bys1955
The MIC. It is more powerful than the President.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Why blame Obama? Why blame bush? POTUS doesn't run shit around here. Open your fucking eyes.
And stop blaming gawd, too. He doesn't run shit either. But at least gawd has an excuse---he doesn't exist. Never did, never will.
Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
Forced overtime became prevelant in the private sector in the late 70s and early 80s. Employers found that overtime is more cost effective than retraining but the health effect on the worker or the stress on the family is never calculated by the bosses and that is devastating. That is why companies buy Dead Peasant Life insurance on its workers.
Now the DOD has adopted the practice in the form of mulitible deployments and the results are not surprising.
If the Labor movement had stopped slavery for wages in the private sector, it would have been politically unthinkinable for DOD to impose it on military personel.
Crush the corporate insect that feeds on the blood of the worker.
vests on roi bois
what is the velocity of life that flees a war
are return rates enough to bank a good bit more
will profit fill holes in hearts fallen to the floor
while investors play roulette and buy another whore
but it's just Business, and their children never stop
coming to the table where the crust is used to sop
what remains of tattered lives from another crop
while investors crow how smart they are on top
and fear is stoked to tame the rage
of woken prisoners in their cage
not seen as players on curtain'd stage
nor invested in that blood-soaked page
and fed with homilies and lies
of how 'Proper' power flies
a Flag® of freedom's valid cries
divested of those cold dead eyes
Namaste
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/facing...
Facing Ninth Deployment, Army Ranger Kills Himself. 'No Way' That (any - sic) God Would Forgive Him For What He'd Seen, Done, He Told Wife
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/delta-ai...
Delta Airlines charges returning home US Troops, $2800 for extra baggage: UPDATED
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/mitt-romney-...
Mitt Romney: Corporations Are People! - Updated With Hecklers
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/anothe...
Another Closeted Gay Republican? It's Getting Awfully Crowded In There
@CopyGift
The invasions should have never happened. The fact that we're not stopping, making more of these people then flushing down the loo like they were shit when they return is--I just don't have words for it.
And as bad as it is for these poor US soldiers and their families (who are constantly screwed out of aid), we have it great. Everyone in the countries we are fucking over with extreme violence has to go through this and loads more. They're being chased and bombed in their own country. The entire population is traumatised over there, and they don't get to 'come home' where a group of concerned citizens and victims gets together to rally behind soldiers and their families to help them receive their due. Because we've bombed their due all to hell.
me-oww!
We raise our children to be loving, caring human beings. We raise our children to be responsible for the welfare of their neighbors and to stand up for their principles. We raise our children to be civilized and patriotic at the same time. And the US ARMY etc.... trains them to be fighters, killers and hard hearted in the face of conflict. We can expect our children to stand up for principles and sometimes that calls for extraordinary courage and stamina. Our children respond to a call for patriotism and then we allow politicians to cheapen their lives, by allowing them to take the nation to war by choice, not against the real enemy. We allow BUSHIES/CHENEY's to betray all the values this nation holds dear and then expect our children to continue the good fight "INSPITE OF REALITY". The military industrial complex has hidden behind its corporate shield, it has benefitted excessively from these never ending conflicts. It is time, to bring our troops home, all of them. And it is time to tell BIG OIL to get off its perverbial billions and find alternative energies or get out of the way and we as a nation WILL DO IT FOR THEM. We went to the moon, we can create and innovate new sources of energy and SAVE THE NEXT GENERATION from the BUSH/CHENey militiary complexes of the future. God bless this young man, and yes GOD can forgive him, because his heart was pure. He served his country, his country let him down.
CarmanK
"Middle class societies don't emerge automatically as an economy matures, they have to be CREATED through political action." Paul Krugman.
I'd very much like to know where to find the statistics behind this:
"More U.S. soldiers and veterans have died from suicide than from combat wounds over the past two years."
It's not unbelievable, but it is kind of mind-boggling enough that I'd like to have confirmation. I suppose I could Google it...
It's been in the news (but not FOX) rather often. It's fact.
The suicides that occur while still on duty are reported by DOD.
http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/CASUALT...
http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/CASUALT...
Year Hostile Self-Inflicted
2002 17 213
2003 312 231
2004 735 197
2005 739 182
2006 769 213
2007 847 211
2008 352 258
2009 346 301
2010 456 286
2011 219 111
Bear in mind that the Self-Inflicted category counts worldwide numbers, some of which may have no connection to Iraq, Afghanistan, and other conflicts.
The data in the second link goes back to 1980. From 1980 through 1995, there were over 200 suicides a year in the military. The numbers dropped starting in 1995, and stayed below 200 until 2006.
This report is 5.7 MB, but has a lot of data, and a lot of recommendations:
http://www.health.mil/dhb/downloads/Suicide%2...
Pg. 15 (pg. 49 of PDF file) shows plots of suicides by service from 2001 through 2009. The total numbers and the rates increase throughout. The Army and Marines had about the same rate in 2009, and both were much higher than the other services.
Getting accurate statistics on veterans who committed suicide after leaving active duty seems to be more elusive.
http://www.virec.research.va.gov/DataSourcesC...
"Q. Is cause of death information available at the VA?
Cause of death information is not available from the VA, but can be obtained for research purposes from the National Center for Health Statistics’ National Death Index (NDI). "
There could be a lot of cases in which a veteran committed suicide but wasn't seeking care from a VA hospital at the time, and thus wouldn't show up in this data base.
Regardless, the actual numbers are unacceptably high. At the highest levels, the military appears to recognize this, and appears to be trying to reverse the trends.
At lower levels, there may be more lip service being paid to the direction from on high. It certainly sounds like it in these most recent stories from Fort Lewis.
... or their families or friends, please point them to IAVA.org (Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans Association).
They are doing lots of good work and provide many resources for these vets and their families at supportyourvet.org. According to IAVA, the number of suicides of National Guard members doubled in 2010:
http://iava.org/press-room/press-releases/nat...
According to the VA, more than 6,000 U.S. servicemembers commit suicide every year -- and that was as of 2010.
http://laudyms.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/us-mi...
So if you know a vet or a vet's wife or child or friend, please point them to IAVA so they can get the help they need -- and deserve. If you read or hear in your local media about a veteran committing suicide, contact the reporter and ask him or her to pass IAVA contact info to the family, and be sure to include the information in any comments that you post on local newspaper and TV news sites.
Kate
Of coarse. They don't want anti-war people voting now do they? That wouldn't be profitable if they had to stop these wars of choice.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Left the man hung out to dry, they were done with him unless he'd continue to be their cannon fodder. A dead hero has a lot more propaganda value, at a fraction of the dollar cost, than a live injured/crippled soldier. Now they will continue to abuse and neglect his widow and other family.
The first casualty of republicanism is the truth.
Party politics are not only undemocratic, they are antidemocratic.
for their parts in afghanistan/iraq, but...................................
this young man volunteered (we have no current draft, though we should), knowing full well (as an army ranger) he would be deployed to afghanistan/iraq. let's assume, for argument's sake, he was 18 when he first enlisted, and give him the benefit of naivte'. he had to have re-upped at least once, to be working on his 9th deployment. at that point, he was no longer a virgin, and knew exactly what he was doing and getting himself into. this means he did it intentionally, with purpose and malice aforethought. he abrogated any sympathy from me.
with respect to the "oh, but he had to enlist, because of poverty/lack of education/whatever the fuck stupid reason i can think of", well, no, he didn't, at least not after his first contract was up. he could have, had he chosen to, availed himself of the benefits of the GI Bill, gone to college, gotten a degree (or two, or three), and led a peaceful life, unless he, like so many other well qualified people, got laid off. that's life, deal with it.
the bottom line: while unfortunate, he is guilty of contributory negligence, by willfully signing on for another hitch.
No matter how you want to justify it to yourself, calling it contributory negligence is callous.
Why did he re-up? Maybe because he believed that there was no way that he would keep getting forced to re-deploy for a 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th tour. Maybe because he saw military service as a worthwhile career. Maybe because he felt a sense of obligation and duty to his country, or to his fellow soldiers. Maybe because even with GI benefits, he didn't see how he could go to school & still support his family in the current economy. And it doesn't matter why. The fact that he stayed voluntarily does not make his death any less of a tragedy, and does not mean he's responsible for 'contributing' to his suicidal depression.
If you're going to say he made his choices and it's his responsibility, well, what the hell - do away with those police & fire memorials, because, you know, those folks chose those careers. And those people killed at the WTC on 9/11? Screw 'em. There'd already been an attempt to destroy the building, they knew it was a target and chose to work there anyway. And that convenience store clerk killed in a robbery? F'k him, too - I mean, seriously, you work at a convenience store, you gotta know someone's gonna shoot ya.
that's plain fuc*ed up.
Is exactly how the Republicans see the world. All volunteers are suckers, just props to use to bask in reflected glory, easily discarded when they become troublesome or inconvenient. The concept of service is lost on them, it's something they'll never understand. It's all part of being a sociopath.
of volunteer military service, you are clueless about the mechanisms of trauma ... first of all, it is especially traumatic when one "asks for it" ... you know, volunteering "knowing full well (as an army ranger) he would be deployed to afghanistan/iraq" ... like a date rape victim, one has a tendency to blame oneself ... trauma sufferers also tend to blame themselves when the experience does not match the myth, like real military service vs the patriotic recruitment hype ... and all trauma victims are susceptible to the subconscious urge to relive and correct their experience ... a rape victim may become promiscuous, seeking power in a sexual relationship, or a childhood abuse victim may seek an abusive partner as an adult, as if trying to conquer their past fears and weaknesses ... and a soldier who finds himself falling apart after completing a first enlistment may re-enlist in a subconscious effort to "get it right" the second time ... especially when people like you say he asked for it and "that's life, deal with it"
that being said, it is just plain sociopathically unfeeling to blame this soldier for his understandably profound mental anguish and ultimate suicide in the light of an inhumane system of troop deployment that sent him into the field 8 times ... do you honestly believe that he sought out such suffering?! if so, he was never fit for duty and the onus should still be on his military superiors
but since you are so lacking in human feeling, maybe YOU should serve 9 tours of duty ... bet you would be an awesome, remorseless killing machine!
Hey. What about just shut the fuck up? Seriously, just shut the fuck up. Idiot.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
Tragic.
far left loon >.<
MIC.
Out of control.
No way to stop it now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_e...
Maybe we better find a way
to stop it now...
51% of your income tax goes to military spending?
There's your debt and deficit and your lack of stimulus and infrastructure - and your attack on Medicare, Medicaid, and SS.
90% of casualties of war are unarmed civilians?
That's criminal.
We are sending America's poor to kill the poor in other countries.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
slaves fighting slaves to the death upon the mere thumbs up or down of wealthy men who never know a moment's exertion, deprivation or risk
The most war mongering country in history without a draft is daft. The moral and physical backbone of the military is broken by over deployment. Constant war has its price that includes the blood of civilians and the breakdown of the empire.
they are about more money and resources for the rich and their corporations ... and forcing rich kids to go to war is like forcing them work on their daddy's factory floor
A lot of you are missing the point here. These guys both cried out for help and their cries went unheeded. The military has doctors, including all forms of mental health services. The real atrocity here is that these soldiers were not IMMEDIATELY rendered unfit for duty until treatment could be provided. From what I could gather from the story, neither one was offered psych services. THAT is where the blame REALLY lies.
hhmmm. who does not understand that if you volunteer for military service that you will be taught to kill and expected to kill?
if you sign up for military service, they will send you to kill people, many of them innocent. if you kill innocent people, you are a murderer.
there really is not much leeway in this.
i have pity for this fellow and his family, (may God have mercy on them)
but, he did it to himself.
what i really don't understand is men and women with families and young children signing up for service. this is just plain irresponsible. they know there is a good chance they will be killed and leave their spouses and children with hardship. what the hell is wrong with these people?
may your god have mercy on you, too
Do NOT have pity on us We dont want anything from ppl like YOU I am sure glad that u have never seen what an innocent young helpless child being gunned down or being ran over a tank on PURPOSE BY THE US ARMY looks like bkuz nothing u do or say could ever wipe those images away as u come home to hold ur OWN children and having everyone call u a HERO I am comforted knowing that judgemental ppl such as ur self will not be my husbands company in heaven with the lord
Get your head out of that warm fuzzy place! There has not been a draft since, I believe, 1969. Either you are a juvenile, been smoking too much dope and out of it, smoking crack, or just plain stupid!!!! We have a volunteer military. If you don't have the facts don't waste the space!!!
I think this is tragic, but I am with the understanding that you have a choice in NOT being deployed that many times. This man volunteered and I am sure many of you will want to put blame on something somewhere, but ultimately he signed up and knew what the ramifications were. As far as our murderer in chief, who said he was going to shut the war down because, after all, "Bush started it and didn't have the gumption to do much of anything." Well, Mr. Obama you are just another hypocrite and I have no respect or love for you what so bloody ever. You are just as much of a scumbag as all the rest!!!!
multiple people said it?
Who? Who said that here? Let's see some links.
me-oww!
Some said a draft would be a good idea. I agree. They have drafts in most european countries for men and women who do not attend college. This works out because attending college has to do with how well you score on placement tests and NOT how rich your parents are.
Ultimately we have an ECONOMIC draft because only the poorest people enlist in the military because they feel their only other choice is staying poor for the rest of their lives. Well heres a wakeup call 30 percent of Iraq Vets are UNEMPLOYED.
Also you DO NOT have a choice in how often you deploy. It is decided based upon your unit and typically you deploy for a year on and then get a year off and deploy again. Rangers deploy every 6 months or more. so in a four year term he could deploy 8 times. It is VERY hard to know what you are getting into because you never know when you are going to be put into a unit with command who DO NOT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THEIR OWN CAREERS.
If you deployed 8 times, killed people, watched you friends and other innocents killed, you wouldnt even know your self anymore. Nothing can prepare you and nothing can describe it to you well enough for you to understand. PTSD is what happens when your body adapts to that kind of pressure. You become constantly alert to dangers that are no longer present when you come home. The furnace turning on can make you flashback to a time when a car exploded or a building collapsed. Without therapy it is practically impossible to adjust to civillian life. They don't tell you that when you enlist.
"Some said a draft would be a good idea. I agree."
That's right. Force people to murder others no matter how opposed to it they may be, and if they choose not to murder people, put them in jail.
"They have drafts in most european countries for men and women who do not attend college. This works out because attending college has to do with how well you score on placement tests and NOT how rich your parents are."
Because as Henry Kissinger said, fighting wars is the job of dumb stupid animals. People who do not perform well on placement tests are less valuable as humans -- if you can even call them that! -- so just send them to the front line. It seems the rich really HAVE constructed this with deep thought: since they sent all of our manufacturing overseas, we no longer have the excuse needed to keep the "dumb", valueless people hanging around! After all, they're pretty much a drain on the welfare system, aren't they?
Sickening.
How in he!! does a 25-year-old amass nine deployments?
What did they do? Send him out for nine months, bring home for a week, and send him out again? Outrageous!
to those of u who understand this tragic situation and see who REALLY is to blame I THANK YOU My husband was an army ranger which means their turn around time is 6months or less Now to those of u who want to sit on ur lazy ass and say things like HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS GETTING INTO well u can kiss MY ass obviosly u dont know anyone in the military who actually has a mind of their own and actually have a humane sense of right and wrong If u knew the things my husband had to do and see just to make sure he put a roof over mine and r 2 young boys heads u would not have typed those god awful selfish words or even let them out of ur ignorant brain And if you would actually like to know the REAL story and the WHOLE story u can call me 253 [Edited-I have no way of knowing if this is you, or whose phone number I just erased, but I am removing it from this post for a couple of reasons. If you are who you say you are, you don't need idiots from the internet who don't believe your story phoning you at all hours; if you are not who you say you are and this is a hoax, whoever owns that phone number does not need the same-Sitemonitor] As some have mentioned yes his obituary is full of a few BS words He LOVED the people of his country and of course the army would not want anyone to know about my husbands death bkuz THEY r responsible for it That it Y they are NOT giving my husband a memorial They did NOT want the media coverage OOPS TOO LATE My husband should have been an E8 by now but a few times he sought out help they with held rank from him as punishment BUT they DID continue to give him the extra responsibilities of course just without the name title and extra pay that comes along with the added stress Typical army Anyhow feel free to call me I have no problem continuing my husbands battle for him until he gets to make that difference in a soldiers life as he so desperately wanted to do He was a caring compassionate and selfless man And i will make damn sure everyone knows it especially those army rangers who bribed him and used a damn good soldier until there was no more left REST IN PEACE MY BELOVED JARE THE BOYS N I MISS U LIKE CRAZY
i am terribly sorry for your loss ... and i am outraged that you have had to read some of the comments posted here ... it is simply tragic that a man with real feeling, a man who reflected upon the quality of his actions and felt such profound remorse but tried to struggle on out of dedication to his family, is the one who got trampled down, while the callous and greedy and ignorant just keep on spreading pain
thank you for speaking out ... and i hope that you and your boys find peace
Words can't express how saddened I am at the news of your loss.
There are many veterans here. You just don't see them right now.
I feel confident that I can speak for them when I say that we offer our sincerest condolences to you and yours ma'am.
I hope you find a little peace and warmth in this little note.
Don't pay those with the insensitive remarks any mind ma'am. This is just a blog where people vent. Some contribute well thought out remarks, some are incapable.
Peace Mrs Hagemann.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
to you and your family.
Mrs. Hagemenn,
May the Lord have mercy on your husband and you and your family. Your account confirms for me that the military uses people of good will for evil purposes. The pentagon holds up values such as patriotism and protection of citizens; they wave the flag and ask people to discipline themselves in order to do the bidding of politicians who mostly avoided the draft and got deferments to stay out of the service. they are liars and ask people to go to war under false pretenses. (weapons of mass destruction!)
You have every reason to be angry and I did not post my comments in order to aggravate your grief; but rather to confront the lie that violence is permissible or useful under any circumstances.
Jesus asked us to turn the other cheek and to not resist evil with violence. (He could have commanded people to revolt against Rome and He would have succeeded in this.) The whole point of Christianity is that we refuse to do evil, particularly in response to evil done to us.
This is the teaching that is most difficult, because it is a natural reaction to respond to a slap in the face by returning one. But that is Old Testament justice (eye for an eye) and Jesus rejected this completely. This is also the teaching that turns the world upside down and which will bring about the prophesy: "the meek shall inherit the earth".
I have respect for people that embrace the values advanced by military training and discipline, such as your husband obviously did. And yet it is very clear that the horrors of war can overcome the strongest will and discipline, and the best of intentions.
My prayers are with you.
Sincerely,
Mark Jacobson
First, let me say that I am so very sorry for your family's loss.
There is no question that WE have failed your husband. I have career military in my family and I know firsthand how hard it is for them, because I've watched them cope and periodically not cope with the traumas they've experienced. Anyone who comments that Jared knew what he was getting into absolutely should kiss your ass and beg for your forgiveness, for they know not of what they speak.
If there is a fund for your kids, would you please let us know? I'm sure there are many C&Lers who would be happy to give you even a token amount to let them know how much they appreciate your sacrifice.
Chain of command absolutely does all of the things Ashley said. My husband just did one deployment. During it we had an arguement (skype) and I told him to call me when he was feeling more under control. He asked to speak to a chaplain on SUNDAY and instead they locked him up, took away all his belongings that could be used for suicide, and called him a suicide risk. He spent a week confined to one room. Because of that one experience my husband was afraid of the consequences of asking for help so he never did ever again. We could really use the money that would come with him reenlisting but instead he is getting out and we are going to face some really hard times but that is how they get you! Even people like my husband who KNOW that what happens in Iraq and Afganistan is WRONG and EVIL because they have seen it, are INCREDIBLY tempted to stay in the military because the only reason he joined in the first place was for financial security and college money. I was at the event on Friday and all I could think was that the two women who spoke about their loss could be me if I let my husband reenlist. Protect your loved ones nothing else matters.
Carlin was right, republicans want live babies so they can grow up to be dead soldiers.
Those in the military need to rise up against an evil government that uses them as a rich man's fodder. They need to get some self esteem and not allow themselves used for evil purposes over a mere pay check. The money means nothing in the end if they lose their families, lives and homes not to mention their country that can't afford these fraudulent wars!
I bet many here didn't know the Federal government puts all returning vets on the terrorist list knowing the lack of support, how they've been trained and what they've been put through makes them the perfect people to stand up to it's evil ways.
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