Greenwald: U.S. Is Bound By Treaty to Prosecute Torture Crimes
Glenn Greenwald on why we're bound by law to prosecute torture cases. (Incidentally, he also points out that a new report states that Bush officials were informed that the legal memos submitted to justify torture were slanted to fit administration policy):
The U.S. really has bound itself to a treaty called the Convention Against Torture, signed by Ronald Reagan in 1988 and ratified by the U.S. Senate in 1994. When there are credible allegations that government officials have participated or been complicit in torture, that Convention really does compel all signatories -- in language as clear as can be devised -- to "submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution" (Art. 7(1)). And the treaty explicitly bars the standard excuses that America's political class is currently offering for refusing to investigate and prosecute: "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture" and "an order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture" (Art. 2 (2-3)). By definition, then, the far less compelling excuses cited by Conason (a criminal probe would undermine bipartisanship and distract us from more important matters) are plainly barred as grounds for evading the Convention's obligations.
There is reasonable dispute about the scope of prosecutorial discretion permitted by the Convention, and there is also some lack of clarity about how many of these provisions were incorporated into domestic law when the Senate ratified the Convention with reservations. But what is absolutely clear beyond any doubt is that -- just as is true for any advance promises by the Obama DOJ not to investigate or prosecute -- issuing preemptive pardons to government torturers would be an unambiguous and blatant violation of our obligations under the Convention. There can't be any doubt about that. It just goes without saying that if the U.S. issued pardons or other forms of immunity to accused torturers (as the Military Commissions Act purported to do), that would be a clear violation of our obligation to "submit the [torture] case to [our] competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution." Those two acts -- the granting of immunity and submission for prosecution -- are opposites.
And yet those who advocate that we refrain from criminal investigations rarely even mention our obligations under the Convention. There isn't even a pretense of an effort to reconcile what they're advocating with the treaty obligations to which Ronald Reagan bound the U.S. in 1988. Do we now just explicitly consider ourselves immune from the treaties we signed? Does our political class now officially (rather than through its actions) consider treaties to be mere suggestions that we can violate at will without even pretending to have any justifications for doing so? Most of the time, our binding treaty obligations under the Convention -- as valid and binding as every other treaty -- don't even make it into the discussion about criminal investigations of Bush officials, let alone impose any limits on what we believe we can do.
We are also bound to our own laws and being a nation of laws and in order to uphold the integrity of our republic we need to hold everyone to the same standard.
Investigate, Prosecute, and Punish war crimes.
Or fail to do so and be considered an accessory after the fact.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Remember the theory that members of congress may have known and been complicit in torture.
Accessory before and during the fact as well.
Ru oh. No prosecutions.
Then we fail as a nation.
If nothing happens in Washington to uncover and sort out the criminal wrongdoings of the Bushco regime, then its over as far as the Republic of law is concerned.
Every person for themselves and damn the consequences.
For far worse we fail as a nation.
For 9-11 we did not investigate, indict, or prosecute.
Utterly evil.
... IT AIN'T OVER 'TIL IT'S OVER!!
Demand it!
It's the law!
If Reagan wrote the law it MUST be honest, worthwhile and important to our nation as was EVERYTHING ELSE done by the finest president ever to lead a nation.
Man that was painful to write.
Here, let me rub those blisters for you.
that the UK is us and we're the UK.
Gitmo would've been the Isle of man and several Americans would have been enemy combatants there, treated like at Gitmo, a.k.a. very badly.
Would we accept for a nanosecond the Brits telling themselves that "we can't prosecute; it would be politically disruptive."
Would we really accept a lame ass excuse of that type?
No, right?
Soooo! Why are many Beltway asshats so eager to embrace this excuse?
and i hope he gets to put these f#cks behind bars for life.
if not greenwald, then bugliosi or fitzgerald.
MAKE AN EXAMPLE FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS!!
* somebody's up $#!+ creek with a turd for a paddle, and i don't think it's me or tommy chong.
But he's living in a dream world. It's never going to happen, folks.
Bush is never going to pay for his lawbreaking. Obama will overturn most, but not all, of his policies. SOP.
and America never recovers? Really?
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
As in no country will ever be motivated to negotiate ANY agreements with a country the simply violates them at will. This behaviour severely limits our ability to talk with N. Korea, Iran or anyone else. They will see it and use it as a negotiating tool against us. This is Diplomacy 101.
Idiots
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
was and has been been a neo-con mandate since Reagan. The did a heck-of a job, didn't they?
... is why i have missed you so much lady. hit them hard, i'm about due for a break, i am EXHAUSTED.
We have a leader job at 1600, their word is law.
Departments blindly follow orders, Congress rubber stamps, and the boss is the boss. And the people and the laws are ignored.
Last terms, current, and future ones.
Ignoring treaties is nothing new for the U.S. of A. The media can keep telling Americans how wonderful and moral the U.S. is, but that doesn't make it true.
I don't know. Let's ask our Native American population.
he's STUCK with a legacy that will tell his story for as long as this country lasts...but it sure would be SWEET to see indictments against KKKarl Rove and Dick Cheney. W was god-auwful as president... but it's from THOSE TWO... where the true HORROR of the last eight years came from.
We are being told that there is some discussion about whether what bush and cheney did is against the law or not.
There is no option here. Torture is against the law. The United States has successfully prosecuted Japanese and American soldiers for water boarding and other torture crimes.
The bush regime trampled the Constitution with vigor and regularity.
The justice department was turned into "brown shirts' by the bush regime.
The vice president actively participated in the outing of a covert CIA agent during war time. A CIA agent that was heqfvily involved with the reduction of weapons of mass destruction.
The Constitution of the United States is without a doubt straightforward about prosecuting those that seek to subvert the Constitution. They mustbe prosecuted.
Obama has no choice if he wishes to keep himself out of the gutter with bushco.
The United States of America cannot survive if the actions of the bush regime are allowed to stand as is without prosecution.
I think you've got it! If there ever was a case this is it!
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
throw the book at the treasonous bastards!
…what does that make a measly old treaty? Pfft.
/snark off (sigh)
What in the fuck does it take to get people to see this?
It is THE LAW.
But apparantly laws are only cherry-picked to apply to let's say people who grow marijuana plants NEVER MIND TORTURE, GENOCIDE, ET. AL.
cute pic you sent me, btw!!
For all you know, it's all a lie. ;)
P.S. nobody cares. I'll e ya
if she wasn't married and in LA i would be after this gal like john travolta at the end of "grease".
*C
(sorry alice x i'm still learnin' the format!!)
;o}
is unmistakable
"We don't torture". Then we were told waterboarding isn't torture. Now we know waterboarding wasn't the worst form of torture. There is a lot more coming out about methods of torture used by our country or its surrogates.
By not prosecuting those who committed or ordered torture we put at risk our own troops and citizens who travel abroad.
They don't care.
because once the general public understands to what danger they are in and what danger our troops are in they will demand something be done.
It may come that a tragedy occurs, so heinous, to a tourist or a soldier that brings this about.
It shouldn't be necessary that someone dies to make this point but it often is the case.
I am currently living in an area with very high lay-offs and lots of military deaths and military recruiting.
This is a brainwashed area that is turning, oh-so-fast to something looking a lot like getting ready for a revolution.
Sorry for all those folks out there who don't get it but the more who "get it" and the more who feel they are getting FUCKED...look out.
I'm staying in an area that is traditionally "conservative" whatever the hell that means anymore. People are and have been getting angrier and angrier and angrier.
That when you have a very confused populace, which is what I am seeing all around me, people don't seem to know WHAT they are mad about anymore because they are just MAD.
This is dangerous.
People are saying things to me that I have never heard before and NO ONE I know is praising Bush. People might be ambivalent about Obama but lots of people's husbands, wives, children have DIED and people are calling it on Bush.
If someone doesn't do something, atleast a symbolic someting to put SOMEONE behind bars than OMG. It's a clusterfuck of ideologies run amuck.
We are all Americans. That is the truth. Divide and conquer needs to end with some kind of JUSTICE.
good to see you off your sexy but lazy @$$.
hit them with what you know; we'll save plunger for the really heavy $#!+, when it's time...
You so sexy! Gonna take some time.
;D
... you've never even seen me, even though i've seen your pretty face.
i'm just an ugly old frog whose ex-girlfriend hates him passionately!!
I'm going to have to school you on something based on what I imagine other people think who read this site. Or maybe what John Amato might want to convey. I can't say I know for sure but I'll betcha most people don't want to read us old-timer C&ler's commentaries to each other. I can't say I like that because the "fucktards" were ok with me. But this blog is going huge. Respect.
Let's keep everything offline, offline.
Also, your "girlfriend" ain't so. I'd punch her lights out if that would matter for naught just cuz we all luv ya but the proof is in the pudding.
She's not worthy.
Peace, babe.
tyree told me the same.
i do have a zen-like fascination with balancing something as extravagant as overthrowing a new world order with mundane personal info like the taste of cheetoh's, but i will defer to your wisdom.
and, yeah... i'm beginning to realize she's pretty lame, but i want to talk it over with tyree just a little more...
... don't be so presumptious as to understand all of my political strategies.
when you can report back to me on the meaning of monty python's "confuse-a-cat" sketch, we'll talk.
everything i do is multi-faceted, multi-layered.
i never asked for the job; i just can't shut off my damn brain.
*i'm not married like you; i'm lonely as hell and i owe this girl big time because of how much of a jerk i was the day the iraq war started!!
* i was freaking out like a chicken with it's head cut off!!
with you beautiful gal.
the lunatics are what keep the tourists a' comin' to visit!!
;>)
To the mattresses...er..email!
he, he
to overturn the whole edifice, could some shadowy types be planning to revoke our whole Republic system !?
They tried to instigate a coup in 1933, could 09 or 10 be the next attempt !?
I REALLY BELIEVE that Obama will allow these investigations... in good time. It's only been three weeks. Give him a chance to get things cooking. Someone will bring the right charges. Strong evidence will be presented. It MUST NOT appear as a partisan witch hunt... (of course we all know that the Republicans will characterize any effort at JUSTICE as such.) Regardless... Let Obama's team do it the right way.
It's a new day.
This is CHANGE we can believe in.
has already been presented on the floor of the House. Dennis Kucinich read the reasons for impeachment. Those reasons still stand and the crimes still go unpunished.
Hope we find someone in this great Country of ours willing and able to prosecute them. We'll see.
We can't even stay focused on Bin Laden who supposedly killed over 3,000 of our fellow Countrymen on our own Land. Who's looking for Bin Laden and why are any borders preventing us from getting him and putting him on trial. We are being duped somehow somewhere. Peace.
because he's been dead for 8 years, and has now become a F*CKING CARTOON CHARACTER?!
(good to hear from you, amigo. i love this good cop / bad cop $#!+).
You know, if I were a president who was willing to bend all the rules to protect our country and to get revenge, send a message, I would have gone after Osama Bin Laden's family. Abduct, torture, kill them where they stand. I don't think too many people would have had a problem with that and it would have made Osama an ass in his followers eyes since he hid while his family was picked off one by one.
I also would have invaded Saudi Arabia and stopped there. they are the ones who produced Osama, staffed and financed 911.
And if Osama is dead bullfrog (I agree he is), my strategy would still have worked.
when i tell you NAZI-BUSTER is in every last drop of my blood, it's no bull$#!+.
and i've got some killer snakes up my sleeve for my old friend lord rothschild, when it's time.
old rumpelstiltskin will surely $#!+ his pants when he hears what i've got for him..!!
7 and a Half Minutes of Torture"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1GT-BZvhrw&fe...
Study the symptoms not the virus...
OMG, that is infuriating. I just kept wanting to slap him.
I hope they nail his azz.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
It's not over.
Manhunt: Accused Financier Scammer Stanford Missing
> http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/stor...
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Wow. Sometimes I think cnbc should be called Crook$ and Liar$ Too.
They are like a preview of tomorrow's crooks and fugitives.
The problem with treaties such as this one (and with international law generally) is that there is no over-arching authority to enforce them and their effectiveness is therefore contingent on voluntary compliance, especially for powerful nations like the U.S. Unless we were to lose a world war pretty badly within the next few years, there will be no prosecutions for these offenses and the left should simply come to terms with that and start thinking proactively about ways to prevent their future occurrence. I would suggest legislation stating that the OLC may not issue legal opinions that state that violation of our treaty obligations is permissible. Truly revolutionary, I know - but we need to start somewhere or this stuff will keep happening, if only because of sheer inertia (Obama's principles notwithstanding).
Well, I thought I had something relevant to contribute to Mr. Greenwald's post, but I either lost my train of thought or any desire to comment while wading through way too many comments about a couple of people's private thoughts and innuendos. Get a room!!
Don't let silly personal comments get in your way.
Give us your relevency. Ignore personal comments.
Greenwald is still right.
As a very small token to many American's sensibilities, politicians and various government officials should stop saying things like "The American People do not want to go through X, Y or Z." Or "The American Public does not want to bring up the past, they wish to move forward, etc., etc., etc."
First of all, these self proclaimed Lords of Thought have no inkling of what America wants. But I would wager "The American People" want justice, want the rule of law to be adhered to, and the guilty parties properly punished. Not shamed or disgraced or "admonished" but PUNISHED appropriately and publicly. By Americans, not history.
Srsly.
.
Q U E S T I O N:
Who needs a Nation of laws when you can have a Nation ruled by the whims of men?
Why of course it's not war crimes when American Administrations devise, authorize, order and carry them out, is it?
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
I am trying to figure out how the wingnuts on AM radio will be able to explain the greatness of Reagan with this treaty. if this treaty originated under Reagan than it should be honored and followed to the letter. I know the right wants to forget Bush but hey Reagan said it so it must be gospel.... Prosecute to the full extent and let these fucking idiots spin spin spin...... It will be worth the price of admission
So, how in the world can ANYONE justify letting the Bush administration off the hook for its unlawful behavior? This is such a no brainer.
You'd think a constitutional lawyer would be especially cognizant of treaty stipulations and how the laws should be applied. I'm really starting to wonder about Obama. Was he ever more than empty suit? Do we have Bush redux (although eminently smarter)?
They should go after the criminals that perpatraited these acts against humanity and civilized peoples everywhere now to bring up this treaty signed by the rethugs sainted ronnie ray gun I can hear them sputter and stutter and come up with well that doesnt count he had alzheimers or hey we didnt like him anyway
Why does not the Congress and the White House ever acknowledge Jonathan Turley?
He is a Constitutional professor and he has it right!
These people, and I am beginning to believe that Obama is included, do not want these criminals prosecuted because they themselves are implicated with the beforehand knowledge they held and the votes that they cast. I know obama voted against the war and rightly so. Do the wingnuts and the blue dems have that much power over him?
Over 65% of the American people, and I would dare say a bunch more foreigners, want to see these criminals get what is due them.
I constantly email the White House at the new web site www.whitehouse.gov and ask questions and give my opinion. I email and call Conyers and anybody else I can think of. I wish everybody else would do the same. This tactic works.
This is great! I am hoping Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al, will be snatched like Adolph Eichmann was in 1961, and deposited at the International Court for the initial hearings!
Proud DFH, emeritus!
Obama and Congress will decide which laws they decide to observe and which laws they decide to ignore.
Which means? Bush won. Bush and his cronies and his Congress. America has been permanently crippled -- unless the people _demand_ the rule of law and a Congress with principles above party. So what does "demand" entail?
"The United States has joined 135 other nations in ratifying the Convention Against Torture"..."that Convention really does compel all signatories -- in language as clear as can be devised -- to 'submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution'"
Guess it depends on what you mean by prosecution. Are we implying that a South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission would be an illegal proposal in most countries today? Do people understand the ramifications? The SATRC was how they eliminated a stalemate that was spiraling them into bloody chaos. If you take this treaty harshly, what despot would _ever_ relinquish power? "Sure, here, take me. Try me for war crimes. Execute me for all I care." No, this treaty inflames civil warfare and motivates every despot to hold on to the last soldier.
I still believe demanding all-or-nothing in situations like we find ourselves in will get us nothing. This country is beyond black and white, skins and shirts and good and evil and understanding that widespread stain is part of growing up. Our current Congress is going to indict everyone inside the Beltway during the Bush Regime? Really? Every congressman who voted for Iraq funding? Pelosi for staying mum about that torture briefing?
Will we ignore this treaty? You bet! As we've ignored so many treaties in recent years -- unless they were initiated by the WTO. The question is whether we will ignore it in a _positive_ manner that erects a publicly broadcast court of shame for the people following orders, and, yes, still prosecutes the people giving those orders, or whether we do the usual thing and sweep it all under the rug where it can rot to burst forth a generation later.
If you think you can stomp your feet and "demand" that every soldier, contractor and CIA agent who violated people's human rights is going to see prison, I have to ask, "You and what army?" Grow up and get real. The SATRC was a compromise forged from the viewpoint of a very real look into the abyss. It isn't a tool we should throw away as we lose our grip on the rule of law. A public forum on what it means for a country to _have_ a morality is exactly what America needs right now.
If I'm not mistaken(and I'm not)we hanged Japanese and German POWS who were found guilty of torturing American POWS after WWll so what the fuck is the big problem with going after the Bush administration for doing the very same thing! These cocksuckers broke all kinds of laws and now Obama wants to look"forward" ? Well Mr President if YOU don't go after those who authorized the use of torture during the Bush years then I, for one , will be voting for whoever runs against YOU in'12.P.S. I voted for you in November because I thought you would do the right thing! I hope against hope that I didn't waste my vote!
EXACTLY!!!!
This is the United States Congress!
“The failure to perform a public duty...Misprision is a versatile word that can denote a number of offenses. It can refer to the improper performance of an official duty...The most familiar and popular use of the term misprision describes the failure to report a crime....The first Congress passed a misprision of felony statute in 1789. The statute holds, "Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony … conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States" is guilty of misprision of felony and can be punished with up to three years in prison.
Under the federal statute, the prosecution must prove the following elements to obtain a misprision of felony conviction:
(1)another person actually committed a felony;
(2)the defendant knew that the felony was committed;
(3)the defendant did not notify any law enforcement or judicial officer; and
(4)the defendant took affirmative steps to conceal the felony.”
Donaldd
Obama and the democrats are not willing to investigate and prosecute Bush and his proposed criminals..
I believe that some of the democrats were either involved or submitted to the crimes of Bush and company..
Feinstein was on a committee which should have known of his actions and crimes and there are others which should have known..
This is why the democrats do not want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.
None
Pete2069 said: "I believe that some of the democrats were either involved or submitted to the crimes of Bush and company....."
I do believe this collusion amongst members of BOTH houses of Congress is precisely why there is little effective movement to proceed with investigations of not only the highly consequential torture issues but any of the Cheney/Bush regime criminal activities. Feinstein, Boxer, Pelosi, (Senator)Rockefellar , Reid and many others were most certainly involved in administration decision making, implementation and consequent denial of and attempted cover-up(s). Pelosi and Reid were much too eager to declare impeachment "Off the Table" and vigorously discourage further investigation into the myriad of constitutional and legal wrongdoings flagrantly committed during the past eight years, including the election itself (Not to mention the farce that was the 9/11 Commission). These "Texas Side Step" inactions extend far beyond the current hot button issues. (How many times has Karl Rove been subpoenaed, and refused to appear, without any action by the Democratic majority Congress?)
One is left with only one conclusion in the absence of any credible alternatives forwarded by the above mentioned legislators. That being, by convening far reaching and revealing investigations, these same "lawmakers(breakers)" are certain to have disclosed their own involvement in the administration's illegal activities. As well as possibly-probably other questionable/illegal involvement in the landslide of the "Anything Goes" horror stories and permissible illegalities spawned by the Cheney/Bush cabal.
The recent revelations of almost unimaginable manipulation of financial institutions and practices that "suddenly" have been discovered only underscore the virtual non-existence of effective regulation and oversight of our most important operative, lifeblood entities. The huge scope of wrongdoing by private and governmental bodies simply could not have occurred without people in positions of power and influence being at least aware and quite probably responsible from the get-go.
So, the question is and remains, is the current Congress and the Obama administration going to continue with attempting to sweep all this rot under the rug or are they going to reclaim America for the sake of Democracy and a free and informed American public? An American public that has endured figurative rape and relentless assault of our sensibilities, dignity and constitutionally guaranteed
pursuit of a life regulated by the rule of law.
BINGO
He's a cutie.
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