It's Only Make-Believe: Bush Policy on Israeli Settlement Freeze Was An 'Understanding'
Gee, why wouldn't the U.S. want to drive the Arab world crazy by saying one thing and allowing another? Why would Obama want to mess up a sweet deal like that?
JERUSALEM — Senior Israeli officials accused President Obama on Wednesday of failing to acknowledge what they called clear understandings with the Bush administration that allowed Israel to build West Bank settlement housing within certain guidelines while still publicly claiming to honor a settlement “freeze.”
The complaint was the latest in a growing rift between the Obama administration and the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over how to move forward to achieve peace in the Middle East.
[...] The Israeli officials said that repeated discussions with Bush officials starting in late 2002 resulted in agreement that housing could be built within the boundaries of certain settlement blocks as long as no new land was expropriated, no special economic incentives were offered to move to settlements and no new settlements were built.
The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity so that they could discuss an issue of such controversy between the two governments.
call Bush and complain.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Peter, excellent point!
The tiny radical religious parties and fanatical U.S. Jewish emmigrants who've "found religion" prevent the overwhelming majority -- secular Israelis -- from getting back to the peace table and winning a stable 2-state solution. The born-again Bush and his pseudo-Christian rapture cohorts want that temple rebuilt so Jesus will return. It is radical Jews, Christians, and Muslims that are the problem. They each have but one common goal, controlling their followers lives. The mainstreamers in these three religions need to denounce and destroy all legitimacy to these looneys if sanity and peace can ever return to the region.
It looks to me like they don't want peace and are going to do everything they can to undermine the process. Everytime progress starts getting made, they either kill the peace maker or concoct some provocation calculated to create strife. suicide bombers and rocket attacks on one side, ongoing settlements that amount to slow ethnic cleansing and military might deployed against innocent civilians on the other.All that with Christian fundamentalists egging it on in hopes of bringing about Armegeddon and the rapture. The only thing the settlements are creating is more self-righteousness on one side and more hatred on the other. I hope Obama will stick to his guns on stopping that nonesense.
In a lot of ways I wish they'd rebuild that damn temple. So when nothing happens, Jesus doesn't walk out of a cloud, this whole end of world prophecy is revealed as the goobley gook it is.
insert rim shot
in no uncertain terms:
Honor U.N. Security Council Resolution 242:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_S...
Of course, comments like these made by a respected Rabbi do not help matters:
http://www.forward.com/articles/107112/
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
It's time to stop funding Israel with money and weapons.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
The settlers in Israel are so in Obama's face over freezing the illegal settlements that they are continuing the building and calling them, "Obama Huts".
A friend sent me a YouTube of a group of twenty-something Israeli's out at a restaurant in Jerusalem being interviewed about Obama's Cairo speech and they were calling him the N word, a piece of S...it is so profane the way they were speaking, even making comments that he should be assassinated that I dare not post it here. It is truly disgusting.
And all this in light of the fact that Israel is currently debating a new law to force prison on any person found speaking of the Israeli Holocaust against the Arabs! And in the United States there is a new legislation pending that would make it a hate crime to verbally criticize Israel!
Israel is really trying to cover all the bases apparently. Nobody can discuss their crimes or disparage their behavior yet they can imprison a person in Israel for holding a demonstration against Israel's treatment of Palestinians!
Boy, you wanna talk about freakin' chutzpah???!!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
oppression of Palestinian and Israeli Arabs, but to call it a "Holocaust" is way out of line. The Holocaust was the deliberate and methodical genocide of several peoples, especially Jews. Israel hasn't created death camps, gas chambers or anything like them, and equating the two dishonors the Holocaust and undermines your criticism of Israel with hyperbole and histrionics.
It doesn't help.
Also, let's keep in mind that a bunch of rightwing Israelis isn't "Israel," any more than Bushco represented "America." Generalizations are exactly what permits bigotry like that of Israeli wingnuts against Arabs and Obama.
The BIG difference between the Holocaust and the Israeli Genocide of the Palestinian People is that the Holocaust ended over 60 years ago but the Israeli Genocide of the Palestinian People is going on today.
And in that way the Israeli Genocide of the Palestinian People is far worse than the Holocaust .. and needs to be stopped.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
the arab population, both in israel proper, the west bank and gaza have increased since 1967
so please explain to me how you understand that as genocide
and the jews in europe never fired rockets or commited suicide bombing before being rounded up and sent to camps to be slautered
so your understanding of history is skewed by your delusional hatred for the people of israel
... especially when the topic is Israel. Has the worldwide Jewish population grown since WWII? And plenty of Jews fought back against against the Nazis - with whatever weapons they could muster. Does that mean the Holocaust didn't happen?
Moreover, Turks slaughtered over a million Armenians during WWI. Yet Israel denies any "genocide" of the Armenians ever occurred.
So, is "your understanding of history [] skewed by your delusional hatred for the people [not] of Israel"?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
against the jewish people?
you people are claiming that israel is committing genocide against the arabs
not past...but present
"plenty of jews fought back against the nazis"
therefore what?
and it wasnt plenty...and it wasnt suicide bombings or rockets fired at innocents...it was attacks against ss guards and nazis in uniform
and i will not allow you to make a moral comparison
because there is no genocide occuring against the arabs in israel proper, the west bank or gaza
Your argument that the Palestinian (can't bring yourself to use that "P" word, huh?) population has grown therefore no genocide has occurred is as inane as claiming that because there are more Jews now than before WWII that the Holocaust never occurred.
Is it really nothing more than killing slightly less people than are born?
And why did you completely ignore the denial of the Armenian Genocide which Israel has practiced since its creation?
I'd really like an answer to that question.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
for it was made up by the romans, and until 48, jews living in the land were considered palestinians
and i am not playing dumb...you are attempting to create a genocide where there is none
"the Israeli Genocide of the Palestinian People is going on today."
that is a baldfaced lie based on nothing
so stop the bullshit
it was the arabs who decorated their homes with the picture of the mufti of jerusalem, shaking hands with hitler
it was that same mufti who had planned to build a death camp in nablus
so please...stop with the lies and distortions
It's been "Palestine" for two thousand years.
But let's talk about a lie and/or distortion. How about this one: it's not a genocide unless Jews are killed.
You've avoided why the one and a half million Armenians slaughtered by the Turks were not the victims of genocide. Why?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
You can trace that name back to the Philistines, who weren't Arabs (best guesses are Mycenaean Greeks or Anatolians). That's something like 3000 years.
Palestine is the anglicization of the Latin Palestina, given as a name (Syria Palestina, actually) during Hadrian's reign. The Romans named it for the Philistines, because they wanted to get rid of any traces of the Jews. Before the renaming it was known as the province of Judaea.
If the US sent the Sioux packing and never allowed them near the Black Hills, then the practice of denying the Sioux entry to the area was passed on by the successors of the US government for thousands of years, would you say that the Sioux had no legitimate claims at all to take back their sacred home? Or is there some kind of time limit?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Except that the time frame is off by a factor of ten.
But we are not talking about denying the Sioux/Jews entry. We are talking about killing and driving off the present occupants. Granted, these occupants of the Black Hills have not lived and cultivated the land for even a significant fraction of the time that the Palestinians have. But I still don't believe that they should be imprisoned and then bombed in their open air
reservationprison. I also don't believe that the Black Hills should be connected by "Sioux only" roads.However, give me the evidence of current owners of the Black Hills who ripped off the Sioux, and I have no problem whatsoever with giving the Sioux justice. I like that idea.
Which of the Palestinians stole what land?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
..entry to the Black Hills. Try being a Jew trrying to get near the Dome of the Rock.
So if your family were Jews in Germany in the '30's, and the Nazis confiscated your family's art collection, and somehow that collection ended up in my hands, whose art is it? Because I'm telling you now, even if I bought that art in good faith, legally it's yours.
That is what happened to the Jews and their land. It was confiscated.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
But we're not talking about about the Mona Lisa stolen from John Smith. We're talking about specifically unidentifiable land owned by specifically unidentifiable people thousands of years ago.
Why is anyone's claim any more valid than anyone else's?
I had a dream it was all mine. Does that count?
And as far as access (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I understand that, historically, Jerusalem under Arab control had far greater respect for religious access than it ever did under Christian (Crusader's) control.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...shipping them off to Yemen in 641, then, yeah.
You're probably thinking about the Jews in North Africa and Spain who got along just fine with the Moors. But the the Moors aren't Arabs, and the Moors never controlled Palestine/Israel. And the goodwill didn't last all that long- there was a pogrom in Granada in 1066. Then in the late 12th century, the Jews were kicked out of Spain and Morocco.
And all through the Middle ages, there was violence against the Jews in Egypt, Yemen and Syria.
In Aleppo, Syria, in 1400 AD, the Jews were slaughtered by Tamerlane's Central Asian, Islamic troops.
So, yeah, lots of respect and tolerance there.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
How many mentaly healthy people do you know that cannot let go of the past?
Allow me to interject. The Jews's land was not confisgated. In 722 B.C. Sargon II king of Syria conquered Samaria, capital of Israel after ten years of war and deported the entire population. Israel was no more. In 586 BC, Nebucharezzar entered Jerusalem, capital of the kingdom of Judah, destroyed the Temple and deported all Jews to Babylonia except the poor and crippled. That's not confisgation. That conquest, victory. The Huns did not confisgated Europe they invaded and conquered it. That's when Jewish diaspora started. If I'm wrong correct me. Then in 70 AD Titus, Vespasiano's son wiped out Jerusalem. They spread all over the world. A good think. The reason we get our asses kicked constanly: We do no take no for answer. Democracy in those times was a total unknown concept. But your exchange of ideas is totally invigorating.
call it an Arab Holocaust. Maybe you need a site for your very biased opinions? AIPAC maybe??
I hope Obama topples Netanyahu's government. I want a two-state solution (although I'd prefer a single, secular state with equal rights for all), and I'm a Jew.
Come on. There are Israeli racists, just like there are US American racists.
Really, a law in Israel against criticizing the treatment of Arabs? And a law in the US that makes it a crime to criticize Israel?
This kind of hysterical exaggeration, distortion, and demonization doesn't move us towards the creation of a Palestinian state.
+
... Here's some that qualify as both.
Why the heck do we give so much blood and treasure to people, if truth be told, that look down on and hate us so much?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
most of the people expressing those amazingly idiotic opinions were apparently dual US-Israeli citizens. Their parents must be so proud.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
there is no such law
if there was, there would be no btselem org or any other org that works for the rights of palestinians
you guys are as good at making up shite as the wingnuts
for that is what a one state solution means
really think that the jews of this new land will be treated as equals?
really think it will be a secular state?
can i come visit your world
bet there is no depression there and every eats chocalates 3x a day and never gets fat
... the death of Israel? Ok, fine. Only Jews should count. But please don't pretend that that result is really any different fron apartheid South Africa.
You can have a "Jewish state" or you can have a democracy.
You can't have both.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
it is the height of arrogance that americans feel that their democracy is the only legitamite one
there are israeli arabs that have all the rights of israeli citizens
there is no apartheid in israel
palestinians do not wish to be israelis, therefore a single state solution is absurd and unworkable
...in 1948.
Then Jordan rolled into the West Bank and claimed the West Bank for themselves. Then after Jordan lost the West Bank in the Six Days War, they had a lot of disaffected PLO inside of their borders who were getting militant, and Black September(1970) occurred, the result being thousands of Palestinians(3,400-20,000 depending on whether you trust Jordan's numbers or Arafat's) dead at the hands of the Jordanian military.
Go figure.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
from 48-67, israel had no control over the west bank, gaza and most of jerusalem
not once during that time did the international community demand a state for the palestinians
jordan (against international law) gave all palestinians jordanian passports
egypt left the gazans in limbo
half of jerusalem was not allowed to be visited by jews and the western wall became a trash dump
the grave stones from the mount of olives were used to pave roads
again, during this time, there was no outcry from the world, and no demand by the palestinians for a state of their own
but to the world, and to many on this board, the history of the middle east begins in 67
I never realized that Palestinians never cared about a bunch of foreigners moving in an taking all their stuff.
Not only didn't they care, but it's all the Arabs fault. I'm not really sure how or why any of that is possible, except I know that by convenient groupings you can pretty much blame anything on anyone.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
and you dont think that egyptians or jordanians are foreign to the arabs who reside in the west bank and gaza
neither do i
which is why those on the west bank can all move to what was originally considered palestine under the first mandate (jordan)
and all those in gaza can move to egypt
and there...we have settled the entire problem
peace be upon you
The Brits, the Ottomans, the Mamaluks (Egypt), the Seljuks, the Crusaders, the Arabs, the Byzantine Romans, and the earlier Romans, or the Hellenistic dynasties? You want to tell me when there's ever been a sovereign state in Palestine before those? Because all you'll come up with is ancient Israel and the Philistines. And the fact of the matter is that every one of them has committed acts of cultural imperialism, even the Palestinian Arabs themselves.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I'm talking about people who have lived in Palestine for many generations.
And the "fact of the matter" is, that because they are not Jewish, they don't seem to count for anything. Jews, who's ancestors may have lived in the area thousands of years ago, are all that seem to matter.
I have a problem with that.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...the Jews didn't leave there voluntarily themselves. Booted out by the Romans. Kept out by the Byzantines and every other people that then occupied the land.
Do you know the significance in Judaism of the rock at the heart of the Dome of the Rock? It was the place of the Holy of Holies, the most sacred part of the Temple of Solomon. Hundreds of years after the Romans tossed the Jews off the land and destroyed Herod's Temple(the replacement of Solomon's), Emperor Constantine's mother, Sophia, built a Christian church over the rock. The church was replaced later by a cathedral. The cathedral was replaced by the Dome of the Rock after the Arab conquest of Jerusalem- because *ahem* Muhammad rose bodily to Heaven from that rock. So here's a people wandering about the face of the Earth for 1800 years, unwelcomed or despised everywhere thy went...But all they wanted to do is go to the home THEY were forced out of...And all along, someone is trying to obliterate their most cherished place in their home, not even allowing them to be near that spot as visitors....Who doesn't count for anything?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
So that means that the the olive orchard your family has cultivated for the past hundred years should belong to some European with a Holy Book?
Hardly, but that's irrelevant now. What is relevant, especially to this thread, is settlements. If these settlements are justified by nothing but a Holy Book, does that mean that I can have them? Hey, who can't write a Holy Book?
That isn't meant to unnecessarily disparage the "God gave it to me" line of reasoning, but instead is meant to emphasize the fact that "God" gave it to everyone involved.
And if someone states the Jewish Holy Book claim and I say *ahem* does that mean the claim is effectually countered?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Jewish occupancy of the land is a matter of history. Thousands of years more history than Arab occupation of the land.
And European? Really? Don't the thousands of years of persecution, pogroms and genocide at the hands of Europeans belie that myth?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Roman Catholic school; I didn't have much of a choice.
And from what I know of the Torah, the Jews spent far more time outside the Holy Land than in it.
The universe is less than six thousand years old. For the most of the past two thousand years, the Jews have been in the diaspora from the Romans. But this isn't the first diaspora: it's kind of a central theme to the book. There was a bunch of time in Egypt when famine got too bad. There was also that nasty Babylonian diaspora the prophets had warned of.
By fairly simple math, the Jews have spent more time outside the Holy Land than in it.
Where are you getting this "thousands of years more history"?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Late 7th century AD? The Exodus from Israel was rougly 1200 BC, but Abrahan is in Canaan- same place, different name, in roughly 1800 BC. So that's 1400 years of Arab history with that land, and 3800 of Jewish history. (and yes, there have been some Jews there, secretly in most cases, ever since the Diaspora)
And, again, they didn't leave it on their own. The Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian captivities were not choices. The Diaspora was not a choice.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
But neither was the Nabka. The Irgun was as brutal as the Babylonians or the Romans.
Anyway, as always, thanks for the civility, and the history lessons. It's late and I'm gone.
P.S. I just caught your comment above (again on the thanks for the history lessons). You always play it straight, and I learn when I read what you write.
Thanks.
GN.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Yipes! It's 5:30!
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Did you actually wrote that? The Universe is less than 6000 thousand years old? You mean...no dinosarius, no cave man? brother, you have problems. Are you related to Palin?
oyyyyy.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
... that the Bible is a lousy history book or that it is a lousy science book? :)
In my own defense: it was almost 2:00 a.m. after a Saturday night.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Let everyone vote.
It's kinda tough because it means everyone. Not just Jews and a few, numerically controlled Arabs. Everyone. Whether you are in an "occupied" territory or a sanctioned settlement or otherwise.
It's called a democracy.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
non citizens dont have a right to vote anywhere
israeli arabs vote
they have representation in the knesset
they have a supreme court justice
how many jews serve the pa?
god, you are irritating
Non-Jews cannot.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Or was it just "irritating"? And correct.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
god, you are irritating
god, you are irritating
god, you are irritating
far left loon >.<
Me, Uncle Joe, God?
All of the above? :)
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I was mimicking.
far left loon >.<
could provide us with some details of these "laws" you've heard about. You know Abbywood, you can't just make shit up and expect people not to find out.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
AIPAC own the USofBLOODYISRAEL. As far as 'chutzpah' they invented the word, gave it meaning. These low-life creatures are entitled to go and do things no human being would consider, and now can't even be criticized!!! So totally Zionist that there are no words for it.
you inserting Zionism into the mix. That and personal, denied biases are big reasons agreement is difficult.
The USA is not bound to, nor does it, honour any treaties or agreements they sign.
far left loon >.<
Agreements are honored only as is useful.
The Spanish, The Italians (Columbus under Spanish sponsorship, the English, the Germans, ...........
and keep the indigenous, aka Indians (not from India) out of sight, out of mind!
Talk about a fucked up national psyche...Amerryka!
...we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we? I mean, imagine Sarah P. under the Dick's direct tutelage.
No, the Obama administration is sounding the knell for Israeli control over US policies. Look, for example, at the Navy now coming public with the USS Liberty attack. The ship's captain has just been awarded the Silver Star, and details of that 1967 act of war are described. The information is in this week's The Slaughterhouse Informer which costs $5/month from http://tbrnews.org and worth every penny twice over. (Tell Walter that Dragon's wife sent you!) A tidbit of this article:
Getting Away With Murder
In sum, on June 8, 1967, the Israeli government learned that it could get away with murder, literally, and the crime would be covered up, so strong is the influence of the Israel Lobby in our Congress — and indeed, in the White House. And those USS Liberty veterans who survived well enough to call for an independent investigation have been hit with charges of, you guessed it, anti-Semitism.
Does all this have relevance today? Of course.
Benjamin Netanyahu, the new Israeli Prime Minister has now had an up-close-and-personal chance to take the measure of our new president and has already thumbed his nose at Barack Obama’s plea for a halt in illegal construction of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories.
The Israelis seem convinced they remain in the catbird’s seat, largely because of the Israel Lobby’s influence with U.S. lawmakers and opinion makers — not to mention the entrée the Israelis enjoy to the chief executive himself by having one of their staunchest allies, Rahm Emanuel, in position as White House chief of staff.
The recent Obama-Netanyahu encounter reminded me very much of the meeting in Vienna between another young American president and Nikita Khrushchev in early June 1961. The Soviets took the measure of President John Kennedy, and we got the Cuban missile crisis, bringing the world close to nuclear destruction.
Netanyahu is currently whipping up frenzy and fear in the face of what he calls the “existential threat” posed by Iran — frenzy about the “danger” from Iran that could lead to military action of some kind. So confident is Netanyahu of the solidity of his position with movers and shakers in the U.S. that he may be sorely tempted to mount the kind of provocation that would be aimed at confronting Obama with an unwelcome choice between joining an Israeli attack on Iran or facing dire political consequences at home.
And nothing is outlandish any more. Remember Seymour Hersh’s report about Cheney’s office conjuring up plots as to how best to trigger a war with Iran?
“The one that interested me [SH] the most was why don’t we build — we in our shipyard — build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats. Put Navy Seals on them with a lot of arms. And next time one of our boats goes to the Straits of Hormuz, start a shoot-up.”
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/calendar.php?ca...
Also, if you need more information regarding the hours long bombing of the USS Liberty by Israel (including the use of napalm and firing at lifeboats which is a war crime!), please go to YouTube and search "Dead in the Water". It's a REAL eye opener.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
why the USS Liberty incident was not just the friendly fire incident it appears to be. Exactly what would have the Israeli government's rational for attacking what was even then one of their key allies?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
You'd have to ask Israel .. and don't expect a straight answer.
The best speculation I've seen is that the Liberty witnessed the slaughter by Israelis of unarmed POW's.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
at sea? You jest.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The Liberty allegedly witnessed Israeli troops slaughtering unarmed POWs on land. The ship was at sea.
It was an intelligence gathering ship.
Surely I DONT jest.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
was the Liberty ever in Israeli waters although it was quite close. Somebody has pretty good eyes if they can see twelve miles. Funny how none of the survivors, the majority of the crew, never mentioned witnessing any such atrocities. Just another internet fable no doubt.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
and america really has never provided a good reason why they sent it into a war zone
and there were atrocities committed by both sides during the war...that is true
They seem to have failed to communicate course corrections to the crew of the Liberty, and never happened to mention to Israel that the Liberty was even in the neighborhood.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
has never confirmed that it was a spy ship although it is likely so. That being said it had every right to be in international waters even during a war. The Israeli government apologized and made restitution to both the families of the dead and wounded and the US navy. If you think it impossible that it was nothing more than an accident consider Flight 655. That particular Airbus was shot down by the US Vincennes causing the death of 290 civilians including 66 children. The US government has never officially apologized to Iran and the captain and crew received medals upon return to the States. Apparently they mistook a wide bodied heavy for an F-14. You'd think they'd have been able to distinguish the radar cross-sections but such is the fog of war.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
After that pass, after seeing the flag, after calling in and reporting the flag and still getting confirmation to continue fire, then making several more passes, "whoops" doesn't quite cut it.
Nor does Jonathon Pollard, Aviem Sella, Eli Cohen, Ben-ami Kadish, Wolfgang Lotz, Moshe Marzouk, or the recent AIPAC spies whose charges were dropped with the help of some Neocon clout.
Israel is not always our friend.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Are you kidding me? Middle of a war with three neighboring states, not aware that a US ship is even supposed to be close, and you think they're going to stop the attack for some pieces of cloth that can be bought or manufactured cheaply?
Until they got confirmation from the US government, they were right to be suspicious of that ship, wrong for firing on it only because it wasn't in their national waters.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Why the cover up? And why should we believe this nation is our friend?
I'm aware of plenty of things, billions and billions of things, we do for Israel. Yet every time even the mildest of criticism is made of Israel, American critics are attacked as if they were the Liberty legally cruising in international waters.
They are attacked violently and ruthlessly. Gratitude means nothing. Seriously, after even a small sample of the Max Blumenthal video I linked to earlier, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Israelis who could give two $%&*s about my country except as far as it benefits them.
We kicked out as many Neocons as possible in the last two elections. Why should we kiss the backsides of their over-seas version?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Cover Your Ass, the 'your' in this case being the idiots in the Navy who fucked up by allowing the communications to the Liberty tied up in a bureaucratic mess.
Many, many heads would have rolled if the case had been investigated by an entity other than the US Navy, which pointed fingers at the IDF. Every subsequent US investigation independent of the Navy used only the evidence shown in the Naval Court of Inquiry's investigation. And THAT investigation was limited by the Navy to 10 days, when the Rear Admiral in charge of the investigation said he required 6 months to investigate properly. THAT seems to me like the Navy was trying to cover their own asses.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
That original investigation was limited to the actions of the Liberty's crew. Why the fuck might that be?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
It is a shame the US government had not informed Israel (although specifically asked) that it had no ships in the area. A flag is poor protection against idiocy in time of war. It did not help our troops in Afghanistan when they were bombed and strafed by US pilots whose controller had instructed them not to fire on the friendlies. Shit sometimes happens.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
... maybe they can complain about our spies.
For my part, I'm kinda ticked we even need to hire the spies. For billions and billions a year, I think we should be able to chose who Benjamin has over for dinner.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
you should never again complain about bush or cheney
we send money...so we have a right to do what we want
very nice
good to see that libs can be ugly americans just like the wingnuts
Israel apologist.
Feign ignorance will ya!
For crying out loud .. the US Liberty wasn't depending on the naked eye to see what was happening on land.
And if you don't like the explanation I've offered (the best I've heard yet) then .. YOU have a computer and YOU have an internet connection and YOU can use Google just as well as the rest of us!!
You're obviously feigning ignorance just to pick a fight & I'm not going to bite!
Do your own research !!
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
was an electronic spy ship. The evidence is still pretty murky. The official story is that the Israeli military misidentified the Liberty as an Egyptian freighter due to the fog of war, and there's good reason to believe that's the case.
There's also solid evidence that the Israelis knew it was an American ship and attacked it for reasons unknown, although there's plenty of speculation. There's also evidence that President Johnson and Secretary of Defense McNamara knew of the attack and were willing to sacrifice the Liberty and its men, again for reasons unknown. The NSA still hasn't declassified all its evidence on the case.
destroyed a whole bunch of evidence, according to the Ray McGovern story I quoted above. "Whole platoons of people saw those intercepts," he wrote, about how the Israeli pilots saw the American flag and asked, "Are you sure you want us to do this?" and were ordered in. The radio intercepts told the whole story... except for the part on the US side, where the aircraft from the American carrier were told to turn back, and do not interfere. Of course, those radio reports were destroyed as well.
The fact that this is coming out now is a way of telling Israel that we are not going to f*ck around with them any more.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
such as yourself, who's seen all these secret destroyed intercepts. Otherwise it would be too fantastic to believe.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
What is it? This is becoming the weirdest discussion I have been in lately. Interesting, but weird.
acknowledged. Friends don't let friends massacre their sailors. Israel would probably be a far healthier country if the U.S. had dealt honestly with it from the beginning. Of course, the US government has had its own reasons for being dishonest too, and they don't all relate to the Israel Lobby.
Was that what I was supposed to get? I am serious.
Did you go to http://tbrnews.org?
Then click on "The Voice of the White House".
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
would be far better Middle Eastern Partners!
Not surprising that the crooked Bush regime would agree to such a farce.
Benjamin is a Zionist and has no credibility
BUSH is BUSH and is clueless.
Add both together and you end up with a toxic cocktail.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton calls bullshit.
I'm sick and tired of Israel playing the deceitful bully in the Middle East. I'm tired of us funneling money to them to build up a military arsenal second only to our own. I'm tired of supporting their crimes against humanity and all the other treacherous bull shit they are involved in.
SCREW THEM!! They either shape or, we we need to cut the line and switch bait. We have been their puppet for too long. Enough is enough. Nothing personal against Jews, but DAMN SURE personal against the Israeli state. They are as big of terrorist state as any in the Middle East!! FACT!
Keith O & Larry Wilkerson - Israel, Bush & The Roadmap - Bush Sabotaged Peace Plan - 6/4/09
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
that they either quit building settlements or our money spicket to them will dry up. I guarantee that will get their attention. they have had their way with America long enough. It's high time we spanked them and sent them to a corner for a time -out.
They'll just act all butthurt and claim anti-semitism. Then during re-election time they'll smear any politician that supported this and maybe even throw in a few ads about how if Israel is lost they won't get in to heaven.
also, cease all aide to egypt and the palestinians and every other foreign country
btw, the only thing that will happen if aide ceases to flow to israel, is that they will become a debtor nation, and all the improvements that israel has made to american tech and weapon systems will cease
Better an Israeli soldier than an American soldier die finding the bugs in our weapon systems the hard way. I've got friends in the military, I'd rather some Israeli get killed because of an undiscovered bug or flaw in a system than them.
I've no problem using them for "guinea pigs" and "crash test dummies". We should have given them the M-16 first before swapping the M-14s in Vietnam for them. They might have come up with some fixes that work in the jungle, before we had troops die over there because of a malfunctioning weapon.
And no, I am not being sarcastic.
"... if aide ceases to flow to israel, is that they will become a debtor nation, and all the improvements that israel has made to american tech and weapon systems will cease."
Cool. Where do we sign to get the aid stopped?
far left loon >.<
Hey wake up. New Admin. New rules. (Was anything in writing?)
Better tow the line instead of making threats.
Are we mood here in the US for your inability to get along with your neighbors? Time to make your own changes at home and get off the dole.
No more checks. That's all Obama has to say.
Obama, not a third term of Bush. The new administration should not be threatened into holding onto an unofficial policy Israel had with the previous administration, not to mention a decitful one that causes more hatred towards both Israel and the United States and is tantamount to shooting ourselves in the foot!
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
clause of the Constitution (between the states) and we're supposed to honor some unwritten secret and alleged agreement made with a foreign country by a known liar that is contrary to what was publicly announced? Oh, sure we will.
Are you saying that BushCo publicly said one thing, and covertly they did the complete opposite?
Come to think of it, wasn’t that their default setting on just about everything they ever did while in power?
Yes. That is the Republican setting.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Wingnut Hasselbeck's lies about Obama are showing more than her brown roots
http://jed-lewison.dailykos.com/
Awwww. So the Israeli government is pouting and getting ready to throw a tantrum because they won't be allowed to LIE anymore? The last teacher let them get away with cheating, but this new one expects them to stay after school, clean the erasers, and actually do the homework they were assigned? HOW UNFAIR!!!
Christ, what is it with right-wingers? Do none of them believe in adult values?
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
this isn't the Bush administration now is it?
Israel is all about slow gradualised conquest.
Israel does not have fixed borders.
Palestinian House Demolitions + Israeli Settler Colonies = Israeli Border Expansion.
That's why there's 'terrorists'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2...
The current republican party is built upon frank luntz word shopping.
Everything the republicans say means exactly the opposite.
For example anti abortion means more aborition.
In case you didn't notice while they were in charge they made no attempt to stop abortion.
The clear skies thing they did was to let more pollution into the atmosphere.
The healthy forest was to let more clear cut logging go on.
The patriot act was about as anti patriotic as you could get.
Family values to the republican party could only be considered family values for Vald the impailer or maybe the Nazi party.
When bush said we don't torture what was going on?
Torture.
When they were saying the economy is strong? It was on the verg of total collapse.
When they say bush kept us safe?
What was really happening.
They were wasting money getting Iraqi oil for the big oil companies.
The whole party is nothing more then a lie!
Choice words ment to deceive the feeble minded republican voter into voting against their own best interests.
Every single republican poll is a fraud a liar and a greedy bastard, doing nothing but filling their pockets on the backs of Americas working people.
No more proof is required! republicanism is a mental illness! Absolute Fact!
I'm a racist!
The entire bush presidency was "make-believe"...
Cue the Kabuki....
Now it's the Jews complaining about "lebenstraum".
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