Spain To Consider Torture-Related Charges Against Bush Administration Officials
By Susie Madrak Sunday Mar 29, 2009 11:00amIronic, that Spain of all countries will be investigating us for torture! The Bush administration is experiencing some instant karma, methinks:
LONDON — A Spanish court has taken the first steps toward opening a criminal investigation into allegations that six former high-level Bush administration officials violated international law by providing the legal framework to justify the torture of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, an official close to the case said.
The case, against former Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and others, was sent to the prosecutor’s office for review by Baltasar Garzón, the crusading investigative judge who ordered the arrest of the former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet. The official said that it was “highly probable” that the case would go forward and that it could lead to arrest warrants.
The move represents a step toward ascertaining the legal accountability of top Bush administration officials for allegations of torture and mistreatment of prisoners in the campaign against terrorism. But some American experts said that even if warrants were issued their significance could be more symbolic than practical, and that it was a near certainty that the warrants would not lead to arrests if the officials did not leave the United States.
The complaint under review also names John C. Yoo, the former Justice Department lawyer who wrote secret legal opinions saying the president had the authority to circumvent the Geneva Conventions, and Douglas J. Feith, the former under secretary of defense for policy.
[...] The court case was not entirely unexpected, as several human rights groups have been asking judges in different countries to indict Bush administration officials. One group, the Center for Constitutional Rights, had asked a German prosecutor for such an indictment, but the prosecutor declined.
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I knew that sooner or later, in some country where civilization flourishes, that there would be those who would take up the consideration of such flagrant crimes against humanity.
Except for their blood sports, it is not otherwise ironic to me that it is Spain to do so.
Whatever crimes done in the Inquisition, they were done five hundred and more years ago.
It is to our eternal shame that people in our name used techniques known to be torture since the Inquisition.
The crimes of the Americans may still be going on, for all we know.
It was the court of Baltasar Garzon in 1999 which ruled that Pinochet did not have immunity from charges pertaining to human rights abuses because he was a head of state. They indicted him.
The use of the Monty Python clip is hardly apropos for such a grave matter.
"Whatever crimes done in the Inquisition, they were done five hundred and more years ago."
So, when do we stop? We're 500 years behind Spain? Fantastic.
It's a crime to me that WE didn't do this first. Five years ago.
Well too be technical not only did the Spaniards waterboard, they also used the rack, the Iron Maiden, the boot (which could be used to crush legs or cook them in oil), thumbscews, the strappado and the clyster.
Then they had the secular court carry out the death sentence or face interdiction, so they could create the impression the Church never spilt blood.
And while being trundled out slowly to the jeers and missles of the mob, the prisoner's tongue was either clamped with wooden clamps or cut out entirely, so they couldn't recant before they were burned alive.
These executions were called auto de fe's, and refusing to go watch and participate in these festivities could bring your own righteousness into suspicion.
Do you want me to describe the torture done to children, adults, women and the terror invoked onto the populace of Iraq/Afghanistan/Somalia?
I don't think any of us would ever be able to look ourselves in the eye if Seymour Hersh actually got to tell you what was on those tapes.
I know the cutting, stabbing, punching, skinning and sodomy of children were involved. That alone was never shown on "TV".
We should recognize what evil we have sunk and that the Inquisition did it for the EXACT SAME REASONS. Power and Fear Domination.
that a foreign government would enforce international laws against US regarding torture. No Justice, No Peace.
All we are saying, is give me a piece...
And no pie either
Give me a Danish.
In Denmark, a "Danish" is called a "Vienna". Or rather, Vienna bread.
Another funny thing is according to some German writers when JFK said, "Ich ben eine Berliner..." he said it correctly identifying himself with the people of Berlin.
It may be just another repug talking point to inisist that JFK misspoke and said, "I am a jelly donut."
Keep that in mind when you are drowning, or being forced to stay in a stressed position for hours, or denied sleep, or denied red cross monitoring. Cake or Death? Trivializing an atrocity reflects your sociopathic values.
Who would win in a fight, Wundermaus or Mighty Mouse?
Actually that sounds like some of my dates.
It also sounds like a typical weekend at the lovely Cheney residence.
Well one: this thread is partially based on humor using a link to a classic Monty Python bit.
And two: My doctors tells me if I don't make immediate changes in my lifestyle it could be my deathstyle in the next five years.
So to wundermaus, well excuuuussse meeeee!
It lightens the mood. We all know that torture is nothing to joke about.
wundermaus, ysb is our resident comedian and most of us appreciate his humour very much :)
I read up-thread some, and the first comment used the Monty Python clip as a springboard for a this is not funny theme, so wundermaus could've been referring to her.
However, I think a lot of us are inclined to laugh that it's the Spaniards and the Germans attempting to preserve human rights and not Americans; we're being vilified.
It's also relief that the perps aren't getting away with it entirely.
For one thing, how many cushy jobs could they get if they're not allowed to travel internationally?
Why not charge george boosh himself?
He'd look right cute with a hood over his head and electrodes on his fingers, lit up like a Christmas tree.
No one ever expects the SPANISH INQUISITION!!!
Let's hope this isn't what Spain has in mind . . . .
*
Come to think of it wasn't Franco himself something of an autocrat?
Franco was a Fascist installed by the military intervention of Hitler and Mussolini.
I thought they were all linked, but you hear more about Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito than Franco.
that it is not that Hitler and Mussolini were responsible for Franco's victory due to their intervention. As much as it was the complete lack of support of the democracies of the day for the republican cause fighting the fascist uprising. Spain had been a democratic republic for a few years after they had overthrown their monarchy.
To this day, Spain has a demand with Russia regarding hundreds of billions (adjusted to inflation)of dollars in gold that were shipped by the Spanish republican army in exchange for Russian military equipment, which was never delivered.
George Orwell actually volunteered to fight for the Spanish democratic faction in their civil war. Omage to Catalonia is a chilling recap of his experiences fighting the Spanish Civil war. He has been a hero of mine, not only was he able to master the written word, but he was able to back his words with action.
to a crowd to be honest.
their basic human decency, over an American's embittered cynicism to justify their lack of action and complicity... any day.
is going to smite the Bush guys.
Waiting
MountainMan23 for posting this on open thred last night. The best news we've had all year.
but why just the low-level guys? They were just the peons who were used by their criminal bosses to set up the system for torture.
It's time to round them ALL up, especially the real architects of this evil, to ensure that every one of them is punished. That would be the only true justice.
Still, this gives me hope. Way to go, Spain! Well done.
It is best to go after the low level people first. They might talk.
After they talk come the big wigs.
I'm just very impatient.
That's the usual steps leading up to Leadership Summits. The terms and particulars are all ready taken care of before the big boys start.
I think ronnie raygunn may've skipped that a bit with his discussion with Mikhael Gorbachev at Reykjavik. The latter came prepared to talk about SALT not START.
"But some American experts said that even if warrants were issued their significance could be more symbolic than practical, and that it was a near certainty that the warrants would not lead to arrests if the officials did not leave the United States."
We need a Batman to swoop in and kidnap the criminal thugs and take them to Spain to face their crimes like Batman did in the last movie with that criminal boss in Hong Kong.
Why not contract that American bounty hunter (Is Dawg his name) who kidnapped a Mexican citizen in Mexico for his TV show to do this! Should be right up his street!!
Somebody throwing a potato sack over Karl Rove and yanking his ass of the set of Fox News, throwing him in the trunk of a car for a trip across the border for his flight to Spain would be an instant classic on youtube. I know I would stay up watching it night and day.
send Rove et al directly to the streets of Fallujah.
It would be a hoot to see the pastry white piggy... being thrown into the middle of a street fight over there. In his tidy whites.... and watch him run and criy as his white underwear becomes progressively soiled.
If there was an actual god, he or she would make sure war criminals get to experience the fruits of their own wars of choice first hand. Alas....
although I like the idea of dressing rove up like a matador, dropping him into a bullring and letting the meanest bulls have some fun for a change.
Funny thing is the original bull fighters, Cretans, possibly Etruscans, were largely acrobats, leaping on, off and over charging bulls to prove their skill and bravery.
The bull was unharmed.
Although I wouldn't be surprised if he was sacrificed later. But that was one of the rare opportunities the poorer folk could have a beef dinner, because what was offered up to the Gods was simply the offal. Prometheus tricked the Gods into thinking that was the best portion, by dressing it up, and making it look like the larger amount.
acrobatics was to make the bull tired or weak enough to be "handled"... and by that I mean killed.
Trying to tackle a bull on its prime is not a smart idea.
The actual bullfighting is a somewhat descendent of that idea: the matador does its thing, the main point being to tire and weaken the bull in order to be able to ultimately kill it.
That being said, there are some variants of bullfighting in Portugal, Spain and France, which deal mostly with the acrobatic aspects of what you described.
It is a display of both, the bravery and skill superiority of the human over the beast... in this case a bull.
That doesn't make it any less barbaric, but there are all these fascinating undercurrents behind bullfighting.
Considering the bull is symbolic of a God and the jumping over of it is a ritual preformed like religious service I would sa...
Wait... Bush and Cheney tortured people Why do I care about Bulls?!
Somebody throwing a potato sack over Karl Rove...
Wouldn't he be hard to mash?
Fuck that--call Boba Fett!
The same ones that cheerleaded the Bush administration into the wars?
Sure wouldn't want the most perfect country in the world looking through it's own dirty laundry.
Ever notice that it is almost impossible, for a conservative to admit to making a mistake?
And conversly, for anyone to suggest that America has ever come close to making a mistake, is committing treason.
What's up with that?
When one can not even look at their own navel because they are afraid they may find some lint in it...
Which also explains the penchant of most right wingers for making their own reality in order to avoid self examination of where they stand in reality.
I thought naval folk were more concerned with getting barnacles on their dingy.
I am pretty sure we blew this 1 off out if Germany a few years back. Doesn't anybody remember?
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,859...
and I also remember Rummy having to flee France in a hurry.
It was a good day when I read that story.
I guess Donny 'I stand for hours at a time every day' Rumsfeld ain't such a tough guy after all.
After he and others in the US ridiculed France for not participating in Iraq, the thought of him running away like a little girl still makes me laugh.
It bugs me I consistently miss one letter, really starting to bug me. I may need a bios update, I swear I proof read and miss 1 every time.
Don't let it get to you. I understood what you were saying.
:)
Ain't that grand?
The US of A, the bestest country in the world and beacon of decency and democracy... has an ex-secretary of defense who is a wanted criminal overseas. I am also certain that Kissinger hasn't been able to set foot in the "old Europe" in a while too. Isn't he still wanted in a few EU countries for crimes against humanity he fomented?
Not that any of those buffoons would have any willingness to go to Europe for anything, you know all that refinement and culture. It would be like expecting a pig to go visit the sixtine chapel out of its own accord.
That is why I get a hoot when I read about people who think the USA just recently lost their "high moral ground" regarding human rights and democratic processes.
.
I think you're getting the Sistine Chapel mixed up with Kiss's Christine Sixteen.
You see, Spanish courts can prosecute other country's civilians because those courts recognize that they have universal jurisdiction for such abuses of human rights. That's the same reason it was spain that tried Augosto Pinochet.
Augusto Pinochet was wanted by Spanish Authorities because some of the victims of his regime were Spanish citzens. Families of the citizens persented a demand for that asshole when he was being treated in the UK (I think it was cancer).
I think there may be a similar situation going on here, I think the charges were that the US of A conducted some interrogations in Spain, or used Airforce Installations to transport prisoners. Under Spanish law, those prisoners were being "mistreated" and thus they are demanding the US government for breaking the accords they signed in order to use their bases in Spanish soil.
There is a similar demand regarding the US storing nuclear warheads in Spanish soil for a few decades. It turns out that Spain had specifically prohibited the US from using their bases in Spain to store, distribute, or service nuclear warheads (Spain is a non-nuclear proliferation country).
Well, Spanish courts do recognized Universal Jurisdiction for such crimes as genocide or human rights violations. The parties to the law suit do not need to be Spaniards in order to file the suit in a spanish court.
I was just pointing out that the previous cases did not come out of a whim. There were actual Spanish victims or violation of Spanish law involved. Ergo the action by their courts.
"The illegal we can do right now; the unconstitutional will take a little longer."
Henry Kissinger, War Criminal
Anther konservative kriminal free to walk the streets of librul New York.
Didn't the Germans put out an arrest warrent for dick chainey for human rights abuses?
Ve haff vays of making you confess...
...then work your way up the chain. That's what prosecutors usually do. It'll take some time, but I hope Dubya's docket date will come up eventually.
Ohhh, the irony of a bunch of Spanish inquisitors going after the America's rightwing inquisitors. Hope they use the same questions with just a slight twist such as "Why do you hate Spain?!? Why don't you support our troops?!? Why do you love Lee Greenwood, worship Reagan, and want to have Rush Limbaugh's man-babies?!?" as they oil up the torture wrack ...
That the francoist castilian spanish (and that so-called "socialist" francoist Garzon is one of their most egregious representatives) pretend to prosecute the tortures and other crimes against humanity supposedly committed by other nations, is indeed a tragic joke, when the francoist castilians (be it under the veneer of the "populare" or under the veneer of the "socialita") continue to torture and kill and mistreat the Catalonian and the Basque people, and impede by all means (especially heavyhanded in the case of the army and the police) the independence of Catalonia and the Basque Country.
What a farce! Asspain continues to be purely fascist. Same flag as under franco, same laws, same prohibitions against the Catalonian and Basque languages, same punishments, same tortures, same murders.
And the world believing the fascist propaganda of "democracy". "Democracy" only for the castilians, of course. And the world even naming as "spanish" the language of the castilians, and meanwhile the Catalonian and Basque languages, what the hell would they be? Because they can't be "spanish", of course!
What a farce, what a tragic farce!
Makes one bloody puke!
are an idiot...
The Guardian UK has a much better article on this topic.
For one it answers several questions the NY Times article leaves unanswered. And for another it paints a much more optimistic picture of the outcome. There's none of the "unnamed American sources don't think this will work" BS.
Just one excellent example of why I read the Guardian online daily, and only go to the NY Times when it is quoted here or elsewhere.
Spanish judge to hear torture case against six Bush officials
Conyers will issue more subpoenas and Harry Reid more stern letters?
Please please please let this go forward. This would more than make up for that idiotic photo of Spain's Olympic basketball team.
... the only ones who thought it was "idiotic" were the Americans. Not even the Chinese gave a rat's ass about that ad.
The American reaction about that whole brouhaha told us more about the USA than Spain.
Perhaps you should research the matter: http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/basketball/story/2...
Here are some highlights:
London's Daily Telegraph said Spain's "poor reputation for insensitivity toward racial issues has been further harmed" by the photo.
"This was clearly inappropriate, but we understand the Spanish team intended no offence and has apologized," Emmanuelle Moreau, a spokeswoman for the International Olympic Committee, said in an e-mail.
Shameful that a foreign country has to seek justice on such an obvious crime. This American president does not have the fortitude or statesmanship that is required; neither do any of our elected politicians.
Americans should stand up and encourage as well as praise this; finally.
the more countries that will arrest and charge the bush administration criminals the less places for them to flee when the indictments start coming down in the united states.
it's like they're becoming prisoners within their own country without sentencing, in a fashion.
so much for a legacy.
just this ONE TIME... for THESE WAR CRIMINALS. Have somebody sneak up behind them... throw a wool sack over their heads... throw them into a "private" CIA jet... and suddenly they're in Spain, facing a war crimes prosecution. That woldn't be immoral... that would be JUSTICE.
An American investigation.
Drat, if only we had politicians with real balls! I'm talking about big, hulking, hairy balls, the kind that swing low and knock from knee to knee in a most painful display of excess manliness.
None of that around here.
Drat!
Not only Spain but any cilized country should file for war crime investigation against Bush & Chenny in the world court.
I am surprised that Iraq war vetrans are remaining silent on this serious issue. After all, Bush Chenny's lies and greed for Iraqi high-grade oil is what killed more than 5000 young American servicemen, disabled more that 40000 of them, and killed and displace more than a million inocent Iraqi women and children.
Shame on While House, US Senators and Congressmen for not taking any action. I am sure that Obama is pardoning Bush probably because he has dirty laundry himself.
Iran did... Those damn civilizers...
private bounties are legal in the USA. i am currently supporting one that will reward whomever lets us know who our local spray paint artist is.
since they are legal here, how can it be illegal to support a private bounty in another country? when will the international bounty on this bunch of crooks be issued? how do i support it? if they open a paypal account, i will happily give them $20 a week until somebody snatches them off the street and ships them to spain for the reward.
does anybody know?
"that it was a near certainty that the warrants would not lead to arrests if the officials did not leave the United States."
True only if the US decides to refuse to enforce treaties they've signed.
Which would leads to very thorny political situations in the future.
For example: requests for deportation TO the USA...Who will honor a request from us if we refuse to honor theirs?
Oh! You need international cooperation on the economic front? No shit! How do we know you will honor your commitments Mr.President? Couldn't this cooperation become "politically divisive", as you stated regarding this deportation affair of a few months back?
This could quickly turn into a political nightmare in so many ways, it's not even funny.
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