Truth and No Consequences: Torture Memos Released
By Susie Madrak Thursday Apr 16, 2009 2:00pmThe Obama administration on Thursday released controversial memos outlining the legal rationale for interrogation techniques the Central Intelligence Agency used against terror suspects apprehended overseas, and vowed not to prosecute those that carried out what the administration described as "torture."
"It would be unfair to prosecute dedicated men and women working to protect America for conduct that was sanctioned in advance by the Justice Department," Attorney General Eric Holder said.
Thursday's developments underscore a quandary of sorts the administration finds itself in -- even as President Barack Obama is to be commended for his transparency in his bid to distance himself from the policies of the Bush administration.
Even as the new president has renounced those Bush administration practices, Justice Department lawyers are defending the previous administration's top officials already accused of authorizing and carrying out those policies.
Bruce Fein, former deputy attorney general under Reagan and frequent critic of Bush policies:
President Obama has embraced the national security psychology of the Bush-Cheney duumvirate not only in matters of secrecy, but the entire range of civil liberties abuses justified by a purported global and endless war against international terrorism.
Indeed, Obama has invoked state secrets in litigation to conceal torture, extraordinary rendition, illegal surveillance, or arbitrary detentions that have given rise to private damages litigation against former government officials. He has claimed that Bagram prison in Afghanistan is a sanctuary for United States lawlessness. He has asserted that the entire world is a battlefield against terrorism; thus, drones can be fired without a judicial warrant to kill persons suspected of Al Qaeda membership on the President's say-so alone.
Like President Bush, he has issued a presidential signing statement claiming plenary power over the use of the American military. He has claimed authority to detain United States citizens as "enemy combatants" indefinitely without accusation or trial.
In sum, on national security and the war on terrorism, Obama has shown that the more things change, the more they stay the same, despite his adept semantical juggleries.
Glenn Greenwald has a far more generous reading:
I'll have more details as soon as these memos are available. One can certainly criticize Obama for vowing that no CIA officials will be prosecuted if they followed DOJ memos (though that vow, notably, does not extend to Bush officials), but -- assuming the reports about redactions are correct -- there is no grounds for criticizing Obama here and substantial grounds for praising him.
dday has more at Hullabaloo.
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Just so much shit...
Figgered...
We're ALL "good Germans" now...
Mebbe i fergot, but I don't recall there being a 'good faith' exemption to war crimes statutes?
And so is the rest of the civilized world.
No war crime trials, then nothing we do matters anymore. We might as well just start murdering with impunity. Why not? The president did, & look at what a nice retirement he gets out of it.
Okay, if we're not going to prosecute the torturers, how can we conscience prosecuting the tortured? Seems to me Obama needs to free the "detainees" who were tortured if he wants to let bygones be bygones.
If the government rule of law is broken, and high treason wrongdoers are allowed to profit from their crimes, by retiring on their pensions, free from worry of accountability.
The law is supposed to be blind, no favouritism or siding with one side or another.
Why do we bother to uphold the laws ourselves !?
I would assume this is a freshman topic in law school, the why of why law is there. The why bother factor.
He sees the Great Depression II coming; the future exceeds the past in importance, so to hell with the past. Anything goes! A sure path to the hell of a future!
My German sucks. I could never be a good German. Lots of big words.
Obama says: "Our national greatness is embedded in America's ability to right its course in concert with our core values, and to move forward with confidence."
Okay, if one of our core values is no one is above the law, we cannot right our course when we decide that we like some criminals and will not prosecute them. That makes them above the law. That makes Obama derilict in his constitutional (are we still using that quaint old thing?) duty to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed". If this is Obama's course correction, he owe a big apology to all the people convicted at Nuremberg.
I don't know about you, but I cannot move forward with confidence knowing that the torture and war crimes can begin again, whenever the order goes out, because criminals will remember that they were once above the law.
The people we killed 20 million Germans for are now enslaving us
Who is it you think we killed 20 million Germans for? For that matter, who is "we"?
1. The chosen ones
2.American's
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/fre...
so the predators can still bleed the institutions dry on the backs of citizens efforts. The dollar could fail with this kind of administration.
Well it's unfair to criminalize cannabis consumers, too. Doesn't seem to stop it happening. Yeah, we'll prosecute those incredibly dangerous people.
Anyway, what's so unfair about prosecuting torturers?
I think the torturers should be executed, by their actions and unrepentant behaviour, they are not fit to left alive in civilized company.
Why dont they come forward and confess their crimes on Faux and the other cable channels as a start.
"Un-American"?????????
"It would be unfair to prosecute dedicated men and women working to protect America for conduct that was sanctioned in advance by the Justice Department," Attorney General Eric Holder said.
i would counter that torture did NOT protect america (on the contrary, it only made a bad situation worse), further these people should not have followed orders they should have known were illegal.
that said, personally i would be willing to accept this decision if the obama DoJ went after those that crafted and pushed these policies (such as the bush 6, and the entire top tier of the bush admin). i don't see that happening though, especially in light of obama's triangulated statement about this ("This is a time for reflection, not retribution.")
i am not surprised in the slightest. those that want bush crimes investigated and admin members prosecuted are going to be sorely disappointed.
that any bushevik crimes would be punished.
NEVER
Not from this President What f--king Slap in the Face of Justice.
I'm not surprised in the least, sad to say.
Some didn't, I gather there was a dissenting camp within the FBI who complained most bitterly and refused to follow orders.
if not, they're complicit, at least...
Due to some of the details that were leaked to the media, its prob safe to assume that some in the FBI did blow whistles.
Still, at least the memos are being released.
Here are the key highlights in this Ray McGovern (ex-CIA) article. Well worth reading. Kinda puts this whole discussion in its proper context:
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article2...
When, later in the discussion, Secretary Rumsfeld noted that international law allowed the use of force only to prevent future attacks and not for retribution, Bush nearly bit his head off.
“No,” the President yelled in the narrow conference room, “I don’t care what the international lawyers say, we are going to kick some ass.”
So GWB definitely, and Cheney by all accounts, needs some lawful TLC.
Yeah real great change we have here- lets increase spending just like Bush did, while not collecting enough tax revenue- lets detain anyone indefinitely without accusation or trial- lets continue to bomb and kill people in Afghanistan and Pakistan- and hey maybe we can have some more adventures in Somalia while we're at it?
If they're not going to prosecute anyone- that means they're ok with it and it'll continue to happen again. They'll just try to be more discreet about it this time.
Israeli use of "drones" to kill innocent Palestinian families as they dined in their court yards (little children included).
Just more use of military force we can be proud of.
After all, as long as we financially support Israel and do NOT condemn their illegal actions, we are FULLY complicit.
Justice Dept. Whistleblower Defends Decision to Leak Bush Domestic Surveillance Program & Calls for Prosecution of Gov’t Officials and Telecoms
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/16/justice...
(Things are not looking up)
n/t
They're the ones pulling the strings I heard them say.
Three persons knew the entire scope of my work.
Two colonels from the Pentagon and me.
I have no moral problems with what I did.
If a CIA officer has a problem with what he or she did, he or she did something wrong.
With which I have NO sympsthy.
after all, feeding the poor of Saigon and rebuilding the bombed out homes burned to the ground in ancient ancestral villages, tending to the children with their limbs blown off, Washing down the ruined fields to get rid of the agent orange, giving clothes to the needy - I'm sure you would have no moral problems doing that. You were taking care of people who were victims of american imperialism. you should get a medal for that.
i'm sorry you had to be involved.
makes me wonder what kind of dirt the prev. administration has on Obama
the problem is systemic. Discursive. It is the language in which the problem is framed in that conversation which condemns every subsequent official mainly to the major points of his predecessor.
Bush had/created an emergency (Klein's "Shock"), and then claimed these powers for the president for the emergency.
Obama, now occupying Bush's pile of shit, finds those powers useful to manage the consequences of the pile of shit upon which he's perilously perched.
No President except Washington ever returned to Congress/People any power they arrogated to address some exigency. That is just NOT IN the nature of power.
That's why expecting significant change--not just cosmetic adjustments--has ALWAYS been a fool's errand.
It's just not gonna happen.
If there were the slightest chance that Obama would use his power to actually effect changes, he wouldn't be where he is.
If you purged everybody who works in a gov agency from the last eight years.
Gates should go, those state federal AGs appointed by Bushco should be fired,
Just how powerful do some of you think Obama is?
Ferofluid et al. have a good point.
Obama has already reversed some of the most arbitrary powers the last administration seized for itself. He is spending tax money on things which will actually assist Americans (you know ... infrastructure, social assistance, health care etc.). He is authorizing the release of memos which begin to document the crimes of the previous administration.
Some of you will not be happy unless he tries to clean house of everyone in every agency that is somehow implicated in the last administration's misdeeds. No President can survive initiating sweeping prosecutions against his own intelligence and military communities.
Also, stop comparing this to Nuremburg. Just following orders which we thought were legal orders is a defence, unless your country has just been conquered. Doing what you can to protect your country when its highest elected representatives have authorized you and instructed you to proceed is not anywhere near as culpable as purporting to authorize illegal activities which you knew, or had good reason to know, were illegal.
Obama's comments do not guarantee that there will be no prosecutions of Bush appointees and officials.
Realpolitik trumps unrealistic expectations every time.
Laws are only for the little people.
... it's a very specific wording that suggest the focus will be on the authorization, which ultimately needs to be refuted in order for any policy against torture to be effective.
Otherwise, the "Bush Legacy" is going to be the rotting corpse in the back bedroom for a long, long time.
reading the account of the bug-in-the-box, and the reason for using that 'method', just left me speechless.
the fact that they took the time to figure out a guy's deepest phobia, and then tried to utilize it in order to collect 'information' makes me wonder what other lengths the torturers went to. we know about the use of dogs to exploit collective cultural fears (or so that is how it was presented), but individual fears... wow... that is sadistic
Winston Smith and his tube of rats.
Also I would like to know how AG Eric Holder justifies the raping of children at Abu Gharib by US gov employees / contractors. This was done in front of the kids parents to get THE PARENTS to talk. Not the children being raped.
Raping innocent children does not fall under interrogation in anybodys wildest excuse.
I think what this says is, it's up to us to decide. So sign the petition over a Firedoglake and let's get the ball rolling.
All the huffing and misdirected attacks make us seem out of sorts and childish. We have the evidence in hand. Read it, decide for yourselves and sign.
http://action.firedoglake.com/page/s/Prosecutor
I am Frank Chow and I approved this message.
what about the private, for-profit, war-profiteering contractors that tortured?
do they get the same get-out-of-jail protection as the govt torturers?
the guy you need to nail is Eric Prince, the Blackhawk CEO.
There's a legal doctrine that holds the boss responsible for the torts of hirelings.
I could make an exception to my general disapproval of the death penalty in Prince's case...
Were they ever involved in torture of prisoners, or ever accused of being involved !?
There are plenty of other less well known merc/security companies that were involved.
All the sins of Blackwater are the Sins of the gov't that hires them. Without them giving them contracts every 2 seconds- Blackwater wouldn't exist
Obama is mastering Bill Clinton's game of triangulation. He lets the pot boil long enough to get a good read of the tea leaves. Then he makes an eloquent speech that reveals enough insight to reassure a solid 60% that he's on top of the issue and his heart's in the right place. The masses go back to their toil and/or job search with a modest tax break and their faith renewed.
What Obama knows is that the healthy majority he relies on are too busy and distracted to pay much attention to the details. They're satisfied to hear that he's ending the Iraq war, banning torture at Guantanamo, and going to do something about Afghanistan. They're ready to move on and don't really want to put much thought into how and when he's going to accomplish what he promises.
The 40% that Obama has written off are comprised of two main groups. 25% are teabaggers who will go down with the Republican Party no matter what. The 15% that's left, those like us who pay close attention to the troubling discrepancies between Candidate Obama and President Obama, are slowly being hung out to dry. He knows it was only a matter of time before we'd see through his rhetoric and become disillusioned with his opportunistic invocations of the rule of law.
For Obama's purposes, we are inconvenient as allies, and more useful as a marginalized left-wing minority dismissed as impractical idealists. We can be superficially portrayed as an elitist counterbalance to the ignorant right-wing peasants. If Obama can band-aid the economy and keep his own nose clean, he may well succeed in becoming Clinton II.
It lets me sleep at night.
I think you've nailed it, Lish.
Lish. That was poifect. I'm going to copy it and mail it to myself. That is exactly what I have been thinking, but you laid it out so well.
That is America, ladies and gentlemen. Bush didn't get that either. ("You're not elite, you're my base," "I am The Deciderer," etc. Big dumbass.)
The defense being advanced here is essentially "they were only following orders" - the US and its allies rejected that line of argument at the Nuremburg Trials. Shame on us.
Democratic Party trolls, and give the entire world excuse #15,786 as to why, everybody is wrong, and Obama has a secret plan, or he needs more time to study before he makes his next statement, or he has no control over the DOJ, even though the press all says he does, or......but, but, but, but.........
Don't think you'll get that from many on this particular issue. If anyone tortured in the name of the U.S., they should be brought up on charges. Period.
He won't prosecute the foot soldier and he won't prosecute the ones that gave the order. Why not just withdraw from the Geneva conventions and drop the pretext that we are a nation of laws and that everyone is accountable for their actions. At least we won't look like hypocrites any longer.
I hope the public keeps this in mind the next time someone bangs the war drums accusing some foreign leader of human rights abuses.
Obama is proving more of a disappointment with each of these decisions.
of Geneva Accords...
Why not just withdraw from the Geneva conventions and drop the pretext that we are a nation of laws and that everyone is accountable for their actions. At least we won't look like hypocrites any longer.
Gotta tell ya, the whole idea of a 'nation of laws, not men' was pretty much wiped out by the SCROTUS in Dec, 2000. I didn't have much hope remaining by then. I was already half-century old, and was shed of most illusions. But that'n surprised me. Then O'Connor admitted she voted aas she did because she knew she was retiring and didn't want her seat filled by a Dim president.
That was it for me and the 'rule of law.' I held out a relatively long time, i think,.
That just about did it for me, too. Then, when the Supremes ruled that private homes and land could be taken over in order to build businesses on them, that really did it; I lost all respect for them.
I'm seriously disappointed in Obama's status quo, empire defending, faux left wing stance on torture, war, and foreign policy in general. The misguided "right" will still call him a radical leftist even though the truth is far different.
Just to clarify- what is the definition of a radical leftist? Some people you would consider to be radical left?
The wingnuts who call him a socialist, communist, even fascist. They just want to demonize they guy instead of trying to get a grasp of who he really is.
Would you disagree that government getting directly involved with business is economic fascism?(distinct from military fascism) Or that policies intended to redistribute wealth is socialist leaning? I know its a red-flag to call Obama a new Hitler or something like that- but like George Bush, just because his body count isn't as high as Hitler doesn't mean that he's above condemnation for being involved in the deaths of many poor innocents in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq.
I don't think you need to demonize anyone that actively engages in and approves the deaths of people overseas who have done nothing- they demonize themselves.
I have no problem with progressive tax and I'm against corporate fascism if that answers your questions.
"Would you disagree that government getting directly involved with business is economic fascism?"
It would depend on the reason the gov't is getting involved. If it's because these businesses are gambling away other people's money, because they have enough power to have the laws altered, then I don't see that as fascism, I see it as taking correctional measures to protect those who may not be able to protect themselves, against those I would call criminals.
From personal observation of their common characteristics, a radical leftist is a person who treats others the way she or he wants to be treated, treats the environment with care because we all have to live in it, thinks it is the duty of government to look after the needs of its people, and wants fairness and justice to pervade social and international relations. A good synonym would be sensible human being.
So if someone agrees with all of those points with the exception of believing that the government, due to its nature of acting only through force, is even capable of looking after the needs of its people(and rather that it hurts more than it helps)- what label would you give them?
a voluntaryist or an anarchist
Here's a little taste. You might like it. Hang in there for at least the first 7 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpukyeF0IGQ&fe...
I would call them misguided, but that's just me. First off, governments do not act only through force, they build roads that enable us to travel, send nice people over to put out fires, regulate workplaces to keep employees from being sold as sausages, and ideally give us a forum to settle our disputes so we don't have to resort to violence. It would be an interesting exercise to put together a Federal budget from the point of view of what people actually need and use. Somehow I think that resources for use of force would rank rather lower than they currently do.
More importantly, if government does not provide for people's needs, needs which no individual can provide, there is no logical reason to give it any support or loyalty.
I suppose I should thank them insofar as they have not allowed me to be sold as a sausage... but beyond that, I'm stretching. :-)
n/t
Indict every goddamned one of them!
What the fuck is Obama doing? He must be protecting someone besides chimpy mcstagger and the shooter. He is in great danger of becoming an accomplice after the fact.
This is bull-shit!
WE NEEDED A PATRIOT AND WE GOT JUST ANOTHER POLITICIAN.
is protecting himself.
He is part of the elite.
He wants to do whatever he wants to do without being held to account.
He is Bush.
We are nothing but marks.
to that statement by TeaEyels @ 16:57.
Nancy and the other Bushco enablers.
So now that these awful memos have been released and we know that the Bush administration willfully committed torture, what do we do now?
Has anyone started a campaign to get Obama's attention and FORCE him and government to investigate?
I want them to be held accountable.
thing we could do is to hold Bush accountable for one lie:
There are plenty of films of Bush saying that "we don't torture".
He said it on camera with that horrible smirk of his.
Well - at least we can ask our disgusting media to reveal that he was out and out lying to us.
They played Clinton's Lewinsky disclaimer over and over and over. Let them do the same with that freak, Bush.
And shame on the Obama administration and the people who supported this guy.
A million or more of us demanding justice !
Thats the only thing that seems to get results from modern gov these days, they care not for other methods.
time to move forward. Empty the prisons.
list in detail, with photoraphs or diagrams, what they did or ordered done. this might be the best we can do. it's all well and good to talk about retribution and vengance from behind a keyboard but how many of us will even defy a mall cop, much less a commanding officer who could jail you without a civil trial. i have no family anymore, so i had the nerve to face down a guy with a gun pointed at another guy a couple of months ago here in new orleans. people who have something to lose can be manipulated. expose the perpetrators, those responsible, and hang that albatross plainly.
that being said, i'd relish the opportunity to waterboard eric prince. i think stripping him naked in a room with a 2x12, a tub of water and a length of rope in it would be a good start. just leave him there in the dark and wait til he falls asleep. then flip on a bunch of lights while banging on the door. film him soiling himself and post it on youtube. oh, and have a t.v. in there with fox news on it way too loud.
If what they did was legal and lawful, then they wont mind it being publicized with their names and details of their deeds.
better yet, we should play their sick little fascist game. From Adolph to Georgie they sure like to pass out there pretty medals in pointless ceremonies... So, we just gotta all start crowing about what GREAT JOB these interrogators did, demand that they receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and make sure the cameras are ready when Barry shakes each and every hand....
Heckuva job... SLAM DUNK..... ENOUGH...... YES WE CAN....... CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN...... MUSHROOM CLOUD....... WMD..... with us, against us...... move forward, forget the past!
The empire crumbles.
Repeat the Past....
After all, the people who banged prisoner's heads against a wall, suffocated prisoners who had not been charged with a crime - fellows and girls who kept prisoners not charged with a crime awake for days in freezing cold --- heck. They were just protecting us.
How noble.
I'm so proud.
I always thought that Nazi interrogators and torturers were getting a bum rap. After all, they were just doing their best for the Fatherland.
Wunderbar.
Gott bless Amerika.
who raped prisoner's children for the glory of Bushco, and the good of the fatherland.
Eric Holder has declared their actions legal, so lets know their names and see their faces.
They still will be facing civil actions by surviving victims, or the families of deceased victims. Theres no getting away from this aspect of US law.
I voted for him because of the alternative.
I'm back to voting Socialist/Green/Communist Workers Party
When they manage to even get on the ballot.
If I had known about this, I could have spent the money that I donated to Obama's campaign
for some good scotch.
Change You Can Pretend In.
It would upset the ickle minds of the Rethug 20% if the top Bushco tier were arrested and charged, but tough titties, they broke the law, they need to pay the price.
This would be change we the people, and they the rest of the world could appreciate.
President Barack H. Obama demonstrates in an arrogant fashion that he approves of the past Bush administration torture policies by not going after their "following orders" charade. There are after all, GI's who have taken the fall for the Bush administration's torture polciies. Is President Obama going to pardon those GI's who just followed orders before being convicted of their crimes at Abu Ghraib? Obama does not get my praise by not going after those previous administration players for its torture policies. Blame and prosecution has already been done to various soldiers from Abu Ghraib. Are we to think those orders did not come from the top? Geoffrey Miller got orders from Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney to bring those Guantonomo Bay policies to Iraq, yet we are to believe nobody in the Bush administration knew of this? There are GI's again right now sitting in military prisons for following the orders of the Bush administration. "Change" my ass!
Obama is wrong that "democracy" has been brought to Iraq because of the invasion when those leaders are in power thanks to the presence of the U.S. military.
Obama continues to appease the law-breaking of the foreign policies of the Bush administration. Obama has betrayed the antiwar liberal base of the party by upholding Bush administration foreign policies as well. Obama has totally caved in by deciding not to prosecute former Bush administration officials.
Obama says that we cannot prosecute those who are so transparent on these torture memos. It is bad law and poor moral judgment, but, his decision not to go after the Bush administration perpetrators, shows the cowardice of the Democratic Party once again. Obama's refusal to go after the Bushies is tantamount to saying it's okay for the past administration to do so as well as the current (presidential administration) one. Obama is supporting the laws of men/king theory rather than the law is law theory. Obama is quite fuzzy here too. Obama shows that he lacks a firm spine folks on this one.
Despite the fact that Obama released these memos, he is also wrong for not taking legal action against the Bush administration war criminals. Torture is a crime against humanity. The USA with Obama's failure to go after the war crimes in the Bush administration does damage to the reputation of America around the world. Obama said he was "change," but, on this one is the same. Are we safe in our persons and privacy with the Obama presidency? He supports FISA spying on Americans after all, including telecom immunity. Obama is now a law breaker himself, by supporting such illegal activities.
This is but another reason--the spineless Democrats---refusing to go after law-breaking Republicans---of why I joined the Green Party.
"This is but another reason--the spineless Democrats---refusing to go after law-breaking Republicans---of why I joined the Green Party."
... and thus became politically irrelevant.
I may be "politically irrelevant," but I can live with myself and not be associated with the criminals in the Democratic Party, of which many are as conservative as the right wingers in the Republican Party. I detest both criminal political parties. Any true "leftist or liberal" would not be in today's DLC-run Democratic Party. The Democratic Party is a corporatist party. I do not think you should expect universal healthcare any time soon with the likes of Evan Bayh opposing it along with other "fine" Democrats who also refuse to go along with that plan.
You can think that I am now "politically irrelevant," but what have the Democratic Party done for ya lately?
You must love that "change" and "hope" message given to you by Obama. Remember when Joe Biden made it easier for corporations to file bankruptcy and made it more difficilt for individuals to do so? How about Obama's support of telecom immunity? That Obama got most of his campaign money from the bankers? Obama sold out his preacher. Biden says racist things about people who work at 7-Eleven's.
Ingrid Betancourt from Colombia who was taken prisoner by the left-wing Farc (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) formed in 1998, the Green Oxygen Party because:
"We need to have high standards for our democracy. We
cannot just say we are a democracy and have institutions that don't work, have corruption everywhere, have human rights violations as a systematic way of dealing with our problems. This has to change...It is not possible to fight corruption as I have been fighting it if you have something to hide. It's easy to throw dirt and say she's done this, she's done that, but the truth is that I am very lonely in this. If I had done something wrong, I can assure you that I would be in prison because I have so many enemies. This is a game where you cannot play in two camps; you have to be very straight....The way of knowing who is corrupt and who is not is simple: You have to investigate. Everything that I have said in my book has appeared in the media in Colombia. The only difference is that I have put the picture together. In Colombia, the information will appear as a little line at the end of the page of the newspaper. They won't give it the importance it has."
Living with yourself and not being tied to a corrupt political party-the Democratic Party which says it offers "change" just to remain the same and afraid to take on the GOP head to head is something I will not put up with any longer.
I am very happy in the Green Party thank you very much.
Think whatever you like. And keep drinking the Obama/Democratic Party Kool-Aid!
Please refute anything I said prior to the line where you have the greatest attention, as your schizophrenia, seemingly, kicked in.
I will wait till hell freezes over before Obama and the Democrats ever, ever go after the law breakers in the CIA and the Bush administration. Keep dreaming. I am sure fantasy-land thinking is something you enjoy, immensely.
Remain gullible and happy trails with your schizophrenic mind.
has now been replaced by "I was only following advice of counsel."
continue on our fascist way.
We're sooo-o-o fucked.
I am so ashamed.
The Republikkkan Lite Party strikes again!
What the heck is your beef Susie, even Glenn Greenwald and the ACLU (the silly group that actually sued to have this stuff released) said this was HUGE (in a good way)! We now have in the public domain material to begin the prosecution of war crimes, and already we are hearing cries for a special prosecutor.
Is there anything, I mean anything that the current administration can do that would ever make you happy (besides die and make Hillary President (somehow))?
Please...you're not that gullibe now, or, are you? I hope you get into some reality soon, and, realize that Obama is not going to do anything to these Bush administration law breakers.
many times, the Bush crooks for all of our bashing were fucking clever as hell at covering up their involvement. There is no way in hell that we will be able to get at Bush or Cheney unless someone really high up cracks.
The judicial system is starting to work again, and the process of law is being followed. It is slow, and it is cumbersome, but we have to give it some time to get going. Hell after Bush, the fact that it isnt completely dead is a damn miracle. BTW did you see who signed off on some of those memos? One of them is a fucking federal judge!
Anyone, how in the hell does he get booted from the bench?
The only way to get rid of a Federal judge is impeachment by the House and trial by the Senate, same as a president. I'm not holding my breath.
it has been a long time since my last civics lesson and wow, that is depressing. If there was ever a person who needed to be removed from the bench, here he is....
>>>Is there anything, I mean anything that the current administration can do that would ever make you happy (besides die and make Hillary President (somehow))?
Um, yeah. A real simple request is that they stop outsourcing the prosecution of these reprehensible crimes to other countries (e.g., Spain). That's pretty damn important, despite how great you might think he's doing.
His indifference toward civil liberties pretty alarming. It seems this whole thing is not leadership, but leaving things open for others to pursue. He must make it a point of his presidency to hold criminals accountable for WAR CRIMES... by his authority, under his direction (or delegation to DoJ)... not proxy prosecution....
So he is working on that, and about a trillion other things with the entire right, the complicit, and the truly scary working against him. WTF do you expect?! Poof, war crime trials? The country would erupt into partisan civil war.... Get a fucking grip and keep your eyes on the ball. We will get there, just take it slowly.
is the one thing Obama should NOT do. We expect Obama to delegate every one of these problems to a group of qualified MORAL individuals and never deviate from the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. If there are CIA individuals that tortured, fire them. There are plenty of MORAL individuals that will take those jobs. If there are congresspersons that are complicit, publish their names and we'll vote them out. Concealing the identity of torturers and their supervisors, on up to the top IS IMMORAL.
If I am reading your post correctly, morality in no small part is measured by its speed (according to you)? Meaning the faster that Obama puts these people up for trial the more moral he will be?
Alternately, I believe that he needs to be slow and stead with this to insure that as many of the guilty parties are gathered and prosecuted. In addition, by going slow and steady he assures that we, as a people will start foaming at the mouth, allowing populism to help put in place legislation to insure this does not happen again, and to insure that even the highest level criminals are punished.
We both want the same thing, but I am not ready to declare Obama immoral or complicit because he didn't unwind this problem (eight years in the making) in just over 100 days in office (especially given how many other things are on his plate).
One thing I will say, there appears to be a shortage of qualified and moral individuals in this country. Thus far the bench has seemed a little weak imho.
Nor is having too many things on his plate. My problem is his running interference that benefits these criminals.
Let an investigation take its course. Often, a method which might be used is offering immunity to lower level criminals in exchange for their testimony against higher-ups.
However, with his assurance that the Nuremburg Defense would be available to any lower level thug who wishes to invoke it, Obama has hamstrung investigators - at least on this level.
IMHO the problem is not Obama moving too slowly; it's Obama moving in the wrong direction.
but again, I am not willing to throw in the towel yet. We just got more information about the activities of Bush and company than ever before. I think the waters are being tested and if things continue smoothly - we will see more and more information released. It is my hope that we will begin to see the wheels of justice spin.
BTW, didn't Cheney append a immunity clause onto some bill to prevent people participating in torture from being prosecuted? I could have sworn I read that somewhere, but bleh, its getting late.
Peace.
No. I don't want to throw in the towel either.
But I do think we need to roll it up and snap it a few times to make sure they know we're watching.
Good night. Peace.
Before you jump to criticize Susie, look at today's news.
From CNN:
Rights groups criticize CIA immunity on interrogations
Attorney general says it's unfair to prosecute those who were following policy
Amnesty International: "Justice appears to be offering a get-out-of-jail-free card"
Another group seeks prosecutions of high-level Bush administration officials
Obama says intelligence community needs to know it can do its job
First off, Susie is on a one woman quest to sully the POTUS. While I do not begrudge her opinion the slant gets a little old day in and day out. Not to mention she has to be the laziest poster here offering nothing other than a menagerie of quotes to support her position - which, in case you missed it - Obama sucks.
Now onto this matter, I dunno when dealing with people who have no morals, think themselves above the law, and fully capable of assassinating you seems like a "do it with kids gloves" kind of matter. Homeland security and the CIA in particular is now one hell of a scary and powerful place. Oh for sure it was before, but geez, it is a juggernaught of neocon fascists now. This "bomb" needs to be diffused slowly and carefully.
As for people being prosecuted, who gives a damn what the DOJ thinks. They might think it is up to them, but ha, it is not.
The Bush Administration will be charged with crimes against humanity. We may not be able to get the big guys, but a bunch of the neocons will be falling on their swords for sure.
"Intelligence Community" A NEW JOB DESCRIPTION!!!!!!!!
and murderers.
... his opinion on Obama letting the torturers off has er, modified, the more he's read of the memos. From Update II:
Heck yeah, Susie! Thanks for doing your part.
As for the ACLU being happy with this, I'd like a link for that source.
here is the quote:
Obama isn't taking anything off the table, because he can't, and he won't. I know in my gut that he wants the scumbags sent to jail, but we are supposed to be a country of laws, and those laws take time (and undue effort I might add).
Unfortunately, I still believe their are a number of hurdles still to be overcome, of which neocon cronies being the biggest. As a politician, Obama needs to play this slow and easy. Allow for public disgust and calls for justice to ferment. Once he has the people firmly behind him, hang the bastards.
Please do not take my distaste for Susie's body of work, or my belief that Obama is being very clever as some sort of support for these heinous acts. I feel my view is just far more pragmatic than most here.
Because that reads like a pretty explicit endorsement of The Nuremburg Defense.
I dunno, but do you think we should tell people that we are going to prosecute them while we are investigating them is a good idea? Consider this the "sirens are off" and we are approaching the house....
between concern for the president's life/success and concern for immorality festering in the DOJ & CIA? What kind of an extortion plot is this? What facts are we missing?
i'm saying be patient. not everything can be done all at once....
here is a better analogy, what happens to a case when the prosecution is forced to cut corners and sped along?
the guilty go free (think Alaskan senator)
No worries, we can retry them... uh wait, we can't.
Have you ever been Fly Fishing? If so, slow and steady gets you the biggest fish.
The money that flows from the oil in that pipeline has a tendency to leak into various pockets, including every Alaskan in the state. But as all Alaskans know this is not measured in hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions, but billions so the reason the senator was 'set free' was that his transgressions were more political than monetary.
By not squeezing the lower downs you don't get to the higher ups!
but with fanatics there is always the chance that one will fall on his sword and stop the whole thing in its tracks - cough, Scooterboy.
The well of darkness (lovely metaphor) is deep, and we need to be very careful that it doesn't get covered up by the neocon minions still loyal to Cheney.
The US has been committing violations of the Geneva Accords since Korea. Why should Obama be any different? Yet I still stand by my vote against McCain and the Wasilla hillbilly.
No president is above the law. So maybe, just maybe, some in the legal profession will not let this go. They pardoned the torturers. They still left the order givers open.
I'm not disappointed. I knew he's of the same ilk as the rest of 'em and all of that cynical/jaded jazz. Still, pretty damned amazing. How fucking obvious does it have to be for people that water boarding/etc. a person is TORTURE! The justice department was a goddamned rubber stamp under flubya for the CIA goons, and now to accept that "following orders" absolves one from ANY sense of humanity/decency/morality/etc. .... well, fuck you, Barry.
The only person worse than a war criminal like Georgie is a willing accomplice to the crime who has the authority AND THE GODDAMNED DUTY to set an example, but decides instead to merely "move beyond the past". How courageous of you to look beyond the past, Barry.
The freaks must realize that torture must NEVER be permissible, even if Christ descended from above and told you that you HAVE TO DO IT NOW!!!! and it's all going to be okay I PROMISE.... (as troubling as that would be on a variety of levels).... "I was just following orders" ABSOLVES NO PERSON, EVER..... EVER EVER EVER!!!
What shit. People might call me a troll... I know I don't post here often at all. But, if any of you carry water for this heinous bastard, you're no better the Faux news and those loony reich-wing wingnuts....
KO's special comment is excellent. What shit. What shit. I say hang the lot of 'em... ugh, disgusting.
All the smiling and joviality and back slapping almost made me puke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9Vw7Mx21A0&fe...
" Torture is a violation of law " Prof. Turley
" You have an obligation to prosecute " Hear that Obama , the Globalists new lapdog , you're protecting criminals !
And steal a loaf of bread , you go to jail , beat up , torture , kidnap people ...........you get to retire , get book deals , go ON speaking tours AND GET RICH . You MAKE ME SICK , OBAMA !
So "following orders" is a sufficient defense to avoid prosecution for torturing others, huh?
Does this also work for other crimes? Because I think there are thousands of criminals in prison who'd like to appeal their convictions if that's true.
No president can pardon war crimes. War crimes are a violation of the Geneva Convention and as such shall be tried in international courts. The docrinte of Manifest Illegality is at hold here, refuting any legal opinions as justification for such crimes. The individuals are to be held accountable for their acts, as they were responsible to disobey such illegal orders.
In addition, no person, military or intelligence, can be excused for war crimes, simply because a senior officer or civilian of superior rank authorizes it, whether verbal or in writing. There cannot be a lawful order to authorize such acts, and it is incumbent upon all persons, whether in the military or not, to refuse such acts.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva from 21 April to 12 August, 1949
Article 3, section A:
Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
Part III, Section I, Article 17:
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.
Article 7. The official position of defendants, whether as Heads of State or responsible officials in Government Departments, shall not be considered as freeing them from responsibility or mitigating punishment.
Article 8. The fact that the Defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determines that justice so requires.
Obama is very close to becoming an accomplice to torture.
All treaties signed by the United States (Geneva Conventions) become THE HIGHEST LAW OF THE LAND.
This will go down as the Obama torture cover up. He has no intention of dragging the country through torture hearings, so in effect he also condones torture. I voted for Obama but no longer support him because he is bought and paid for.
So, Jon, when did all these fake posters start showing up, I've noticed this for quite a while now. Here's another one. Psst, hey ranchy, protip, ALL POLITICIANS ARE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR. You're a fricken moron if you ever thought different and we don't need morons posting here. Obama has almost 4 years to fix this mess, take your faux support and, well you know what to do with it. 3 months in and your bitching that he's a politician, were you home schooled? The American government is a massive monster and will not be turned over with just one big push, its going to take years to get to the bottom of all this. And it's not Obamas job to prosecute, he should leave that to someone else or he will get ostracized for starting it and the Reps will NEVER forget it.
CNN, through Anderson Cooper and some talking heads, seem eager to give this whole affair a PASS. It wasn't really that illegal, (blah blah blah), not for Americans anyway... (to sum up)
I can't be spilling up all the vomit they're spewing out there, here, cuz it's making me sick.
Most of these comments are completely ridiculous and come from idealists who truly know nothing about the subject. For starters, the people interrogated are TERRORISTS whose sole purpose in life is to kill every one of us, many of whom have already killed Americans. Additionally, how do you expect to gain information from a determined enemy. "Hey Mr terrorist, can you please tell us where Osama is?" The techniques described in the memos are hardly torture. In fact, thousands of our troops have been trained by experiencing such techniques. As for prosecuting CIA agents for the techniques used... get real! They do their job in service of you and this country. How about we prosecute the self righteous persons who in an attempt to make them selves feel good are actually damaging this country and those who truly serve it.
.
Dear jack,
Can you definatively prove that the people TORTURED were/are terrorists? Every one of them?
Please do parse for us...
... The redeeming quality to TORTURE?
... The definition of exceptionalism?
... How the Army Field Manual is wrong.
... How the Senate ratification of Geneva Conventions does not apply to the standard treatment of all persons captured in war?
Remember, you're excusing TORTURE.
Remember, you're excusing these same methods to be used...
... Even upon you and your family.
If America is to be the Leader of the Free world, by definition, such a leader should live up to established standards of conduct, NO? Then what excuse are you providing for our Leadership who've failed to abide by said well established standards?
Oh, I get it, damned be to Principles, standards, and Treaties and Conventions...
... It's not illegal when America does it?
I can see your standards are as low as those of the terrorists. Otherwise, you would walk the high road of morals and principles.
... NO?
.
I'm not excusing torture. That's absurd. And yes sir, I have experienced the exact same techniques described in the memos and have no problem with them. We are not cutting off limbs, we're not electrocuting people, or cutting off their heads, or raping them or pulling out finger nails or sticking hot pokers in peoples eyes. How would you treat someone who raped and killed your mother? Are the persons questioned so far off? If my wife or my children or any other person in my family were thought to be a terrorist. I would have no problem with them being put through the same things as the "supposed victims". Remember those same "victims" want you dead.
... slamming people's heads into walls, confinement boxes (with or without the addition of stinging insects), sleep deprivation, stress positions, and waterboarding up to twice a day.
Torture is excellent for producing false confessions as the developers of the SERE program knew quite well. We took the torture techniques used by the Chinese to extract false confessions from our pilots in the Korean War and used them ourselves.
Indict them. Convict them. Hang them.
Hang them? You wish to hang persons to have sacrificed more than you can imagine in service of you and this country, who do what they do because they do have a morals and have the greatest good at heart. How then do you wish to deal with terrorists who are more evil than you can imagine, who do and wish to do far worse. You want to hang a patriot who may have banged someones head against a wall, yet banging the head of someone who may have been involved in any number o terrorist activities is worse? Hmmm sleep deprivation, or hanging, lets think about those human rights again. I most of these posts have good intentions in their hearts, but they just don't have a true sense of reality. They here something on the news, take it as gospel and apply it to their ideals without knowing the true reality of things.
What "sacrifice" are you talking about? Talk to the infantry; they'll tell you about sacrifice. Talk to the slime that torture helpless people then go out for cocktails; they'll tell you about a bully's wet dream.
Have a nice night, tough guy.
Well sir, I used to be Infantry, and now serve my country in another capacity. I have been involved in combat on more than one occasion, and I have stood by a strong moral code, and I have sacrificed much. So yes sir I know exactly what I'm talking about.
what sort of fucked up universe do you live in that equates "strong moral code" with acted illegally and immorally? You need to come back in from the wilds, because your sense of honor has been perverted.
Point in case, do you remember in WW2 when the Japanese women and children would jump to their deaths rather than allow Americans to capture them? They were told that we torture, rape, and murder people. We assured them it wasn't true.
Gulf War 1 remember all those soldiers that gave up to us assured that they would be treated well and fairly?
What do you think happens in the next war genius? Your dishonor will cost thousands their lives.
Wow, your words truly show how you have no idea what you're talking about. I must have a good point if your response is to take my comments personal somehow and attempt to attack my honor and my service of which you know nothing about. It sounds almost as if you're just lumping all persons who have been in the military in the past couple decades as "baby killers and rapists" or some other antiquated idea.
the part where I said I was a vet.
So take your fake honor and shove it up your ass. You and your ilk dishonored those of us who served proudly and honorably. Not to mention you assured even more deaths for those that would follow in our footsteps.
Arrogant pompous jerk.
... I taught Napoleon about artillery, then, after helping Sikorsky invent the helicopter, I brainstormed the Air Cav.
Airborne commando's were my particular favorite; I taught them everything they know... and so on, blah, f'in, blah.
One thing I did learn (having only been a supply clerk and never in combat) is that those who liked to talk about combat, and especially those that would brag about it in some anonymous forum, probably hadn't done much of it -- if any. Those I knew who'd actually seen combat talked about it very seldom -- and usually only among themselves.
I'm not "bragging" about anything. I don't have anything to prove to anybody. If you read all the comments, you'll see how they're in response to previous statements and are solely stated to show the unique perspective that other readers may not have.
Furthermore, from my perspective I see a lot of parrots. I challenge people to open their eyes, stop simply repeating what you hear on the news. News flash, the news shows you what they want you to see. Don't take tid-bits of information and re-inforce what you want to hear. Look at things from all perspectives.
the realities of things. Perhaps you don't get that as an American soldier when I served my country honorable for your FREEDOM, I really meant it. I didn't mean, oh I will give my life for some jackass to proclaim himself above the law in order to imprison and torture other human beings. WE DO NOT DO THAT!
Bush and company are a stain on the honor of all that have served before and since.
Now which part of that did you not get?
... "idealists who truly know
nothing about the subjecteverything about every Charles Bronson and Chuck Norris movie ever made."There, FIFY tough guy.
this is against international and national laws don't you fucking get? Your fucked up defense for this boils down to us allowing our government to bypass our laws and the will of the people if they feel like they "need" to. Do you have any idea how fucking stupid that is and how dangerous that is to the longevity of us remaining a free nation?!
I have always wondered how it was possible for Hitler to get away with the things he did, after reading your fucking stupidity, I finally figured it out. Here's to hoping you don't breed.
.
Dear President Barack H. Obama,
What then is punishable in the eyes of America?
Most certainly NOT inhumane treatment and TORTURE.
But just what, then, if anything?
You're motto of "CHANGE" was not an honest motto. If it were, the Rule of Law requires accountability, something you're seemingly not willing to give it. Until then, damned be the Rule of Law, YES?
Your talk is sweet, your swagger is fine, but the two miss each other.
What "C-H-A-N-G-E" do you represent when what you're presenting is more of the same?
But the real question that begs to be asked is:
What do you, President Barack H. Obama, gain from protecting war crimes and the criminals that ordered/authorized these acts to be committed in the name of America?
.
Spain's AG is refusing to prosecute the Bush Six.
whats so surpriseing here? obamas been carrying water for the bush gang even before he was elivated to president, of course no ones going to be tried for torture i have said it before and ill say it again obamas repig lite just as clinton was and the republicans couldnt have got a better represenitive even if mccain had won!
Sorry to say it but no surprise , I had hoped there would be justice and that things would be set right and the criminals would be held accountable but alas those in the high places in this country are above the law aren't they ? What fucking hypocrites we are ! What really worries me and pisses me off is that this is leaving the door wide open for the next Republican wacko that will eventually become President not to mention for O-bummer himself . This sets precedence . It is absolute bull shit , it's wrong , and Obama knows better , it appears that I for one have been had , he gives a good speech and promises the world but he's full of crap . What a let down .
I was all set to vote for Kucinich until the Dems railroaded him. Obama was my fourth or fifth choice.
Anyway, there is more than precedent for the next Torturer-in-Chief to worry about. Now that the rest of the world knows we tortured but won't prosecute torturers, how many more terrorists will we create? By allowing justice to punish the Bush/Cheney crime mob, he could blunt the hatred that Bush and Cheney created against us.
Right now there are two Americans being "detained" in North Korea, but not to worry, the North Koreans say, "we're not Guantánamo." And there is an Iranian-American woman in Iran being tried behind closed doors for espionage. It's a state secrets thing, Obama would understand.
So for the wrong reasons, Dick Cheney might just be right when he said that Obama has made us less safe.
Oh, would you jackasses put a sock in it. This is another significant step in the right direction. You act like republicans clamoring for everything to be fixed overnight. Grow up.
...in the right direction? What planet are you living on? He is IGNORING the rule of law. By what standard is that possibly a step in the right direction?!
I'd say you are the one in need of growing up.
It seems you people are finally seeing obama for what he really is: just another crooked politician
...he can forget the U.S. ever having a say in human rights ever again. Anything we try to say to any other country about how they treat people will just make us hypocrites.
This is a tough call. Do we want another Abu Graib situation where only the lower ranks are punished even though they were apparently following orders of their superiors? Go after the people who gave the orders first.
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