On Immigration
By John Amato Saturday Jun 30, 2007 6:06pmMy grandparents refused to speak Italian to their children because of the racial pressures they faced in the early 1900's. Because of that I never learned Italian and it often upset me as I grew up and appreciated what a gift it would have been to speak a second language. It's too bad that Congress couldn't have taken their time (Tancredo is Italian and this exchange about the English language is an embarrassment...see video.) and worked out a comprehensive plan, but the Republicans blocked it. Arthur links to an article by Peter Quinn that talks about the history of this country on immigration and its sins. History is something we sorely lack...
Considering that the United States is made up of "others" and those descended from "others," it is remarkable how much we hate the "other" targeted for vilification at any particular moment in history. We don't hate only those "others" who come here: we hate the "others" who remain there, wherever "there" might be...
At the conclusion of his article, Quinn wonders "whether we will learn from the past or repeat it." On this, as on every other issue of consequence, the evidence compels but one conclusion: we resolutely refuse to learn a single damned thing from the past -- especially since we are almost entirely ignorant of our own past, as well as everyone else's -- and we will repeat it an endless number of times, with all its grisly, bloody details fully intact..read on
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:lol:
As the sage Allan Sherman pointed out in one his skits/songs, 'America is a nice Italian name'
http://www.povonline.com/sherman/Sherman03.htm
America, after all, was named after the very Italian Amerigo Vespucci.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci
Oh Well, Ciao Y'all!
Tancredo è italiano? Paisan, quello è notizie difettose. Dimenticar a questo proposito. Geez.
It's painful to watch Tancredo stammer his way through his argument. That was English, right?
BTW, my grandmother is in the second generation of her family born in the USA (all of her grandparents migrated from Quebec), and she was raised speakin' both English and French. Hell, her Nuns/teachers at St. Jean's conducted half of the instruction in French.
By John Amato who is talking about Arthur who links to an article by Peter Quinn and something about a Tancredo video. I just couldn't follow this posting at all. Who is talking?
I certainly wouldn't relocate to Mexico and expect to prosper without knowing Spanish that I can assure you.
Tancredo is a fucking imbecile who needs to be smacked about the head and neck until he pees blood. Sorry, but this is the same asshole who said we should blow up Mecca, just when our guys are desperate to win hearts and minds. I sent a very polite letter to him requesting that he refrain from using such inflammatory language when we have men and women busting their asses to build alliances with the average Iraqi, so ya know, they won't like, join the fucking insurgency. He sent me back a letter telling me that I'm wrong, my husband knew what he was getting into, and George Bush's plan would work. Sorry, Tancredo needs a painful case of scabies so his dinky little dick falls off.
Notes on Nationalism
May, 1945 - George Orwell
You must have an other, a boogie man, someone or something to be against in order rally people into Nationalism. When people do not speak another language it is easy to assume it is inferior.
http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html
As a grandson of immigrants, and proud of it, I have gotten worked up lately about all the xenophobes (descendants of immigrants themselves, of course) who are trying like hell to slam the door on new arrivals. So the immigration bill failed; I didn't like it anyway. Way too nasty and mean spirited. Let's try again in 2009 with bigger majorities and a sane president.
I am going to be a grandfather for the first time in the next week or so. My daughter-in-law is a new immigrant. My new granddaughter will be a triumph of hybrid vigor, I am confident. She will be (in descending order of ethnicity) one quarter each Chinese and Japanese, one eighth each Polish, Italian, and Lithuanian , and one sixteenth each English and French. How about that for a mongrel!
Arthur Silber, linked to in the above post, cites the Rev. Lyman Beecher as an unreconstructed foe of immigrants (Irish at the time). My wife is one of his many descendants. Oh, and my other son will be marrying an Irish-American. Don't you think hyphens are getting a little tedious.
My Grandmother was "off the boat" Italian...
Tancredo's, ethnic genetics shame me as much as Alito, Scalia, Mussolini, Roman Emperors and a number of Popes do...
I say Ba Fungul!! to those bastards (thanks Grandma! :D )
Well at least we have Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, Galileo, Dimaggeo, and Rizzuto. To balance out our shared Genetic shame...
Wait a minute. The difference between the immigrants of the past and the immigrants of today are vast. The immigrants of the past, my family included, did everything they could to fit in to America. They learned English and made that their first priority so they could communicate with the citizens and get a job. Immigrants today are unwilling to learn our language and we are encouraging this behavior by making everything available in their language. If you are raising a child and they are not learning math what are you going to do? Would you hand them the answers or make them learn? I do not care if they immigrate here, but learn the freaking language...is that so hard?
Basically it's all a plot to divide Americans into splintered fragments. The elites would be scared sh*tless if ALL Americans united and actually became a seriously powerful political force.
scott @ 12:
The cheap labor capitalists don't care what language they speak just as long as they'll follow orders, never complain, and bust ass seven days a week for low wages and no benefits and guarantees.
My grandparents refused to speak Italian to their children, also, and so my mother and my aunts and uncles didn't learn to speak it and so didn't teach it to us grandkids, which was a big handicap when we ended up in Las Vegas back in the 50's and 60's and wanted to get 'made' in the mob, and we couldn't talk 'goombah'.
Boy, how we wished that my grandparents had talked Italian to their kids. But they were so busy starting their liquor-smuggling business (they were Irish), that they didn't have time to learn a third language. (All they spoke was Irish and English).
Scott the problem is, while they are learning English, they are falling behind in Math, history, science and other subjects, so they are fast tracked by teaching them other subjects in their languages. And let's face it, watch George Bush attempt to speak, English is difficult as his first language. It's a tough launguage all around. Especially if the only way you have to learn it is from the boob tube.
My children could have spoken Spanish, but it was too much trouble to speak to them in Spanish because their father was English only speaker. Now my two grandchildren have benefited from living in France and the U.S. Both the children are fluent in English and French, but because most of their schooling has been in U.S. public schools, they have only learned to write English. In France most children learn two languages in school, and English is becoming more prevalent.
My response to To L.A. Confidential is that you don't know what you're are talking about. There are many many foreigners in this country, not just from Mexico, who do not speak English very well and are very successful. And there are many, many foreigners in Mexico who also do not speak Spanish very well and are also successful. Making money is much easier than you think. In any case, I do wish most illegals would leave this country. And I would not be upset if they were deported. It would be a good thing for everyone concerned.
And too bad Mexicans won't speak English to their kids. I think it's really whacked that I can watch travel programs and see people in really far off countries speaking English yet English isn't taught in Mexico. If Mexican immigrants spoke fluent English, I doubt there would be the same level of zenophobia as there is now.
L.A. Confidential @ 14:
And that is not right either. If they were legal immigrants though the situation would be different. they could have the right to unionize or form labor organizations. Since they are not legal it is a catch 22 for them. I am a big believer in human rights and treating people fairly, but it is stupid to believe that we should let all illegals stay here. What makes them so special that they can break the law and the ordinary American can not? If they love this country like they claim they do then enter it legally, again is that so hard to do?
Smakc_dab @ 18:
.....wow.....this is so silly....i can't even think of a response.
Prabhata @ 17:
Sure it is. If you already have money.
I would have loved to speak a Scandinavian language of my parents but they didn’t even learn me to talk good English!:o)
Strawberry @ 16:
I know English is a messed up language, one of the toughest to learn, but if my ancestors could do it they can to. I was referring mostly to adult immigrants, not their kids. If the parents learned then they could teach the kids. I am sorry, but there is no excuse. If I was going to up and move to a new country I would do my best to learn the language, in this case, they do not. I see no reason why English should not be the official language of America, all our founding documents were written in it.
scott @ 19:
Well the whole NAFTA deal is a farce because Mexico was supposed to hold it's end of the bargin up and they never did. I'm not trying to be mean about it but they failed miserably in creating prosperity and growth for their own people and they have had ample opportunity to do so. There is no reason on earth Mexicans should have to abandon their own country in mass exodus other then corruption is giving them little choice.
goddamn it...i aint a xenophobe or a racist
did any of you take the time to read the bill? or do you all just like talking out of your asses and calling those who opposed it racists?
the bill was written by corporatists, who made sure to include provisions that would allow a steady stream of "guest workers" into the country...ostesibly to lessen pressure at the border...but in fact, to make sure that these united states has a permanent underclass...and to make sure that wages in certain fields never get above poverty level.
think those guest workers get any rights???
and the argument was always about illegal immigration....not immigration
why should people who break our laws get a leg up on those that have followed the rules and emmigrated here legally?
call me a racist if you want...as long as i can call you a moronic tool of the corporatists
We now have something like 10% of Mexico in the US, illegally, depending on which number you believe (12-20 million). As the son of legal immigrants, I appreciate the opportunities here, and have no problem with legal immigration, but we have tremendous problems here regarding the shrinkage of the middle class. I cannot fathom how anyone thinks MORE unskilled labor will raise salaries at any level. Supply and Demand, remember? If Bush supports this legislation, there is a major benefit for Big Business and that does not mean better wages for the masses.
Is the method of transport the criteria for allowing non-citizens to move to the US? Why aren't we asking for 10% of impoverished Africans, Indians, Chinese, Europeans, etc., to come on over? Is it because they can't walk here? And if we are not giving them the same benefits, isn't that racist?
Haven't we learned we cannot be the world's policeman? We can't be the world's social worker, either. Other countries need to step up and take care of their own citizens. Mexico is far from poor - the resources are simply not shared equitably.
The of course you have people like Exxon Mobil who deliberately are shafting Americans and bragging about it like it's their God given right.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 25:
Indeed...
I am just worried about catching Leprosy!!! ;)
Checked my birth certificate again today and it didn't read anything about me being born outside of the United States of America... i.e. I'm not an immigrant of any kind. To make the argument that the U.S. is made up of immigrants and descendants of immigrants is faulty. When does one stop being an immigrant? Two generations? Three generations? Two hundred years? Three hundred years?
What country isn't made up of people who migrated from one location to another? Every country in the western hemisphere is no different than the U.S. A population descended from immigrants and descendants of immigrants. Even the native Americans migrated here.
Tom Mullowney @ 26:
Tom in order to level the global playing field the United States middle class has to be milked dry, abandoned, and allowed to wither. The deal used to be a nice house, family, nice car, and life long employment and now it's a TV, Internet Porn, Two Legs, and 10 or more different jobs over the course of a lifetime. At least thats what it's starting to look like.
Smakc_dab @ 18:
In English it's xenophobia. ;)
scott @ 12:
There were, where I live, mass immigrations in the late 19th/early 20th centuries of, first, Poles, then Dutch. Generations later there are healthy bilingual minorities of both. The funny thing is, each camp contains elements that accuse the other camp of bein' secluded, thus un-American(but the core of the issue isn't really about language- it's the Catholic Poles vs. the Calvinist Dutch) . Ironically, both camps tend to send their kids to their own parochial schools, some of which teach the old languages.
I mean seriously. When is the last time you hear a candidate talking about the American Dream?
They can't, because they would have to say, "Everyone under my administration will be guaranteed no permanent employment, decent wages, affordable health care, a pension, or even a place to live. But if your willing to work hard and take on debt you'll have a Plasma TV, all the Internet Porn you ever wanted, a steady supply of Pizza and beer, and all the sports you can watch."
Tom Doff @ 15:
"gommbah"?
My family came from Sicily, settled in Brooklyn and then moved to Vegas where I was born.
Never heard of "goombah" or "getting made in the mob".
There is no mafia.
Geez.
Scott, as an educated (well sort of) person, I would learn the language of the country I was moving to, but if you look at the education level of many of the illegal immigrants who come here...hmmmmm, how to put this, I would bet the more educated you are, the more likely you are to assimilate. But if you're poor and hungry and you risk life and limb to get here, you may not be able to read and write your own language, let alone learn a new language, all while trying to hide from the authorities. My Oma, never learned English very well, she was 65 when she came here. She never attended school. My mom, learned English, she was younger and educated, well at least she learned to read and write Romanian, Hungarian, and German, then English when she moved here. Again, it's the poor and uneducated get fucked over.
DLC @ 29:
Well, yer immigrant ancestors are still yer immigrant ancestors.
And think about this: the European settlers to what became the USA didn't go outta their way to learn Iroquois, Shawnee or Cherokee, did they? What nerve!
#32 - The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe in it ;-)
Personally, I believe that English should be made the national language. The only reason I take that position is because of the importance of communication. When you don't have one unifying form of communication then miscommunication can occur. With miscommunication, disasters follow soon after.
How many people work in a office where managers try to communicate important information but there isn't one standard line? Sometimes it may come by phone, sometimes it may come by fax, sometimes it may come in the mail, sometimes it will be via e-mail. A lot of information is lost that way so everyone who should receive the message does not. If you know that it will come one consistent way, every single time, then it's more efficient and effective.
In terms of a unifying language, it is even more critical that we are all on the same page. I would actually encourage every U.S. citizen to learn a second language so we're not so ignorant about the rest of the world. But the primary language has to be English. Being that the hispanic population will continually grow within the United States, I believe we have to put the emphasis now on learning English or we'll be forced to adapt to two languages. I can only imagine the civil strife that will take place when this occurs. I, personally, would like to avoid it if at all possible.
Mister Anderson @ 37:
Tensions already are reaching the boiling point.
Learning a new language is hard, conservatives aren't into doing anything hard. People that they can't understand also make them paranoid.
Notes on Nationalism
May, 1945 - George Orwell
You must have an other, a boogie man, someone or something to be against in order rally people into Nationalism.
--------------
Which is exactly what extremist politics do, be them left wing or right wing. And, exactly what many of you do, with that whole everyone besides us is a bigot attitude.
Anyway, English IS the official language of the United States. We don't need a law to specify that. It always has been.
If an immigrant can't show any effort to learn how to converse with us, they should turn around and go back to wherever they came from.
It's not our responsibility to adapt to immigrants, they adapt to us. That's the deal and it's not negotiable.
Mister Anderson @37
(with a nod to uncle joe @25)
I used to have dealins at a met packin' plant. The management and foremen didn't seem to be fluent in Spanish, but they knew enough words to direct the Spanish speakers (who worked for peanuts).
And if the Hispanic population will continue to grow why don't we, rather than save the English languge(and ain't we doin' an awesome job with that, bee-yotches), all learn Spanish? I mean, it's inevitable, right?
uncle joe is right. Corporatists don't speak English or Spanish. They speak the language of Capital. Ther are no tenses, only + and -.
Reality @ 40:
Holy shit! You are fluent in NewSpeak. Way to twist the words of a socialist, an anti-nationalist.
What a concept. Obviouisly a nation with more than one recognized official language would remain primitive and backward. It would disintegrate under the internal pressures, and never rise to acceptance as a major global influence...
http://tinyurl.com/p9sep
In world history America is analogous to a rather petulant, irrational, and sometimes violent teenager. We have a choice to make, accept our proper role in the global community... or be spanked. The Age of Empire has been outgrown by most of the free world, yet America clings to this antiquated, destructive notion to our detriment and sorrow. To clarify my position, I am totally against a free market (as defined by corporate America and the scavengers that enable them), but heartily endorse and back a fair market. Laissez faire capitalism is ONLY beneficial to the top of the food chain, who will generate profits in any way they can including human lives.
As for the immigration issues concerning our neighbors to the south. We are reaping what we have sown since the Spanish-American war. If the United States had engaged in helping our neighbors as equals in the Western Hemisphere, instead of letting corporate interest determine our Latin American foreign policy, things would be much different. The sins of the past always return to haunt us.
Wraith D'Ethereal @ 43:
Switzerland is very STRICT in their rules of admittance to citizenship, the amount of people they allow to become residents-citizens, and the rules of civil behavior. A big difference from a no rules open the floodgates policy. You really have to earn your right to become a Swiss Citizen. I know, because my close friend moved to Switzerland through a marriage but he still had a hard grind to go through to become a full fledged Swiss.
rduke @ 11:
Don't forget the best food ever, and all that style!!
This is my whole point (I keep making) about America being an island unto itself. Even when you show the weather on TV, it never escapes this viewer that Canada and Mexico don't exist. Like outside the US border is a void no one wants to know about, maybe we don't even get weather.
And everything is up-to-the-second. History is completely forgotten. I live in Korea (now) and they have ledgers of their family history going back a thousand years. In other places of the world, people never forget. (I suspect the Middle East is one of those.)
And yes, people assume non-English speakers are somehow stupid, but why??? I'm sure many Koreans think I'm stupid because I don't speak their language. How's that for a reverse situation. It's an easy trap to fall into, so don't. People the world over have brains just as good as yours.
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
So? What's that have to do with forcing people to learn English. If you're in Mexico they don't care if you don't learn Spanish. Its your decision and you personally will live with the economic consequences.
We should do the same. Why should we care if some don't want to learn English?
#41 - Andy K
There's more to society than meat packing. To require government officials, law enforcement, medical workers, teachers, so on and so forth to learn a second language (even a few words) isn't feasible. I actually don't believe it will happen naturally and I don't believe this issue has reached a boiling point. The average American has not been forced to compromise on this issue yet in any way, shape or form. The minute the average American goes into their work place and are told they HAVE to learn "a few words" of Spanish to compromise with non-English speaking co-workers, then you will see the issue reach a boiling point. The minute the average American face a lack of professional opportunities because they are not billingual, then this issue will reach a boiling point. And quite frankly, this is not a immigrant versus American issue. Most American-born hispanics are for English being the primary language. And that coincides with most minority groups.
I'm saying this as a person who believes it's the right thing to do to give amnesty to the 12 million illegal immigrants who are here because we knowingly led them here in the first place because of the economic benefits. But if I'm pushed, like most Americans, to compromise on this language issue, then we all know there will be a strong push back. Regardless of where you stand on the illegal immigration issue, we all know that the issue of English being the primary language is not a issue that the vast majority of Americans will not compromise. This nation still hasn't successfully assimilated Blacks into the system, so how will it work to assimilate a lower class who does not speak the common language? When you think long-term about the collective good, stability and security of this nation, trying to integrate a two-language system is one step beyond "unity" in my opinion.
The early history of what is now the United States was Spanish, not English.
L.A. Confidential @ 44:
Switzerland is barely the size of Vermont and New Hampshire combined. No comparison.
I'm an immigrant and I can tell youall how difficult it is to come to a foreign land without knowing the language and learn it and in the meantime make a living. I'm still learning of course, I will the rest of my life, the difference between me and other immigrants, possibly most of them is that i have an education under my belt. You americans expect that people who have minimal education or no education at all should be obligated to learn english while working their asses off picking up strawberries or tomatoes or taking care of your children or cleaning your houses for almost nothing and always thretened with deportation.
This is not about immigration, this is about plain and simple racism, and fear that this country will become a second Mexico, but do you know what? if this country goes to hell it will not be because of the immigrants as certain politicians such as the ineffable clown Tancredo want to make you all believe, it will be because of the greed of the elite, the corporations, those same politicians, the military-war machine, etc, etc...and because of the american people that were not capable to see the real enemy and to dowhat they should have which is toturn the TV off, don't care about Paris Hilton and american idol at least for one day and go VOTEwith consciousness, that's why i became an american citizen, so i can vote for all those who cannot and are anyway affected by the desicions made in DC.
Because of racism you NEVER learned Italian? Never, ever? Every time you try to sign up for an Italian class now racist people stop you? And you cannot learn any other language? Come on, John.
...And while I agree the Republicans are responsible for the immigration bill not passing, lets not forget even our newest Dems like Virginia's Jim Webb (D) and Missouri's Claire McCaskill (D) also voted no on the bill.
Don Quijote @ 51:
Could not agree more. This is racism. And it's an insidious racism propelled by John Tanton, who founded the major anti-immigration groups both overtly and covertly, and he's been at it for 25 years. He wants the population of the US to go from 300 million to 150 million, he wants only white people here, no Catholics (despises them for some reason), zero population and zero immigration. And he funds these groups. THIS IS THE GO-TO GUY for Lou Dobbs and his band of jejeune producers who can't research accurately to save their lives. This is how Tanton thinks: note the 1986 date.
YeahRight @ 52:
It's not the same as learning it before you're five years old. I shouldn't have to point that out to you. If Norwegian high school students (who are the brightest in the world as a group according to the organization that tests and tracks these things) have to learn five languages to graduate from school, what's wrong with this big braggart country of ours? We're number 15 on the bright-kids list, BTW. American students are routinely laughed at for being stupid by the callous competitors in Belgium when they hold these annual tests. Canadians are #6 or 8. Danes, Swedes, Slovenians, and Germans hold the other top spots.
What's wrong learning Mandarin Chinese, French, Spanish, and Farsi when you're six years old?
I'm so sorry to see the left using talking points and propaganda, not to mention labeling all opposition to their viewpoint as racism, in the same way Rove has used these tactics. This issue is quite complex and people have different valid views. One thing that is not debatable about it is the fact that we are not talking the legal immigration our forebears followed, but ILLEGAL entry.
It's just a stupid policy to allow foreign people to break our laws and condone it. You can't bash Bush and Cheney for ignoring the law when it's inconvenient for them and then reward milliions of hispanics for doing the same.
It isn't racism to desire a rational legal and governmental system for your country and society.
hareli,
I agree that it is not the same thing, and learning at a younger age it much easier and better (I regret that my bilingual parents never taught me Spanish). However, I am only pointing out that John's claim that he never learned to speak Italian cannot be solely attributed to the racism his grandparents experienced.
My parents could not afford tennis lessons for me as a child, and that is certainly one reason I can not play today, but the real reason is that I have never made the effort to go out and learn. Oh, and I made sure I learned Spanish in college.
#55 kaT
I couldn't agree more. It's racist to say that Americans don't have a right to their culture. This country has allowed (and even imported) different races and cultures across the globe since 1492. That means over 500 years worth of settlers and immigrants have come together to speak one common language. To change that now for one particular group is irresponsible to me. In France you speak Fench. In Germany you speak German. In Italy you speak Italian. I'm not saying that other languages should be outlawed, I'm saying that there should only be one common language that is officially recognized by the State. Meaning, those who do not speak that language have to compromise when they enter this country and not vice-versa.
I don't care if you're White, Black, Latin, Asian, Middle Eastern, Martian or a talking dinosaur. I don't believe not wanting to compromise the language of my nation is racist. I believe that it is fair.
# 49 - Before the language here was Spanish, there were many native American languages. But the Spanish wiped them out.
#51 - it's racist to favor one group of poor people over every other group of poor people? Should we open our doors to everyone on earth who wants to live here?
kaT @ 55:
OK. The who's fault is it? Those not enforcing the laws, which have been in place for decades if not a century. But the recent froth has been directed at those trying to get in. And it's not everyone who's trying to get in. Only the Mexicans. Because Lou Dobbs has been banging the Tanton bell about it for four years, and inaccurately, I might add. First, it's 3 million Mexicans. (2003) Now the screech is up to 30 million. (2007) Figures manufactured straight out of Mother Goose for effect. THEY'RE AN ARMY! THEY'RE INVADING US! THEY WANT TO STEAL CALIFORNIA! THEY'RE STEALING OUR COUNTRY! THEY'RE BRINGING LEPROSY! THEY'RE BRINGING 100 MILLION TONS OF DRUGS!
If the issue is the illegality, the umm-yer-bad argument du jour, then it's the law enforcement officers who should be raked over the coals. Ever been to an ICE office? They swat flies with immigration files.
You'll notice the 5.25 million of the 12 million illegals are not identified by nationality. No Swedes, French, Russians. Only the 6.75 Mexicans. Yes, it's racism. Because Tanton, if you'll scroll up to my previous posts and read about him, dont like de darkies. That includes Mexicans, Sephardim, anything with a brown skin. That's why he is such a hit with the KKK and the likes of Frosty Wooldridge. Dobbs gets indignant that he's accused of racism. But he regularly uses the Center for Immigration Studies people on his show and that's a 100% Tanton organization: founded and funded.
Years ago, I read a study done by an animal behaviorist/scientist, Dr. Whatshisface. (Sorry,can't remember his name.) He did a study with rats in cages. He put 2 rats in together, they did fine, but they had a little less to eat. He put 3 rats in together. They did not quite attack each other, but they weren't too damned friendly, either. He put 4 rats in together and one was killed by the other three.
In many parts of this country, people are living way too close to so many others. Crowded conditions do not make good neighbors no matter where you are from.
Even in Maine, we are seeing fields and forests destroyed for more and more condos, apartments, private homes, big box stores. And everything is being tarred over like a big effing parking lot.
There are too damned many people. I don't care where anyone is from, if there isn't enough space to live and wilderness left to get away from it all, sure people are going to attack each other. Not enough room to breath free, not enough clean water to drink, not enough healthy food, not enough jobs that pay a living wage, no vacation time, constant worry about health care costs, loss of transportation -- and the damned dumps are closing because there is not enough space to put all the garbage we produce.
Does it make some people feel more powerful by attacking the weaker among us? Sure it does. Those people hate themselves inside and they act like schoolyard bullies.But the vast majority of people see more and more people clogging up the cities and highways, overcrowding the schools, and they react with anger. I can't blame them. There is a limit to what we humans can tolerate.
I'm glad I won't live to see what this once beautiful country will look like in 100 years, or even 50, or 20. I feel sorry for the children. Where once the world was our oyster and we could roam the fields and woods, children will become afraid of outdoors and afraid of Nature. They will never know the freedom of childhood, whatever race they might be.
YeahRight @ 56:
YeahRight, the racism the Italians faced was fierce. Reading NYT accounts from that time period will tell you about it. It was REALLY ugly, and they didn't want their kids suffering from what they did. The Italians took the heat off the Irish, who had the same thing for about 50 years. The NYT classifieds show it: "Irish need not apply."
It's the ole pecking order thing. Human beings always seem to need one group to cast aspersions on. Wops were it at the beginning of the 20th C. They couldn't even get police protection, which is why the Don-a-Block got created. Here's what they thought at the time.[graphic]
Mister Anderson @ 57:
The first language spoken here in the United States was Spanish, not English. The USA was discovered by the Spaniards. (1513: Florida) And Spanish was the national language for over 100 years. A shipload of people showing up from England in 1620 and landing and building a life in a tiny portion of the US did not make this country an English country until the Scots and Irish showed up in the 18th C.
When only one party speaks another language make it difficult to teach the child that language. It happened to me as well of a girl friend that had the same trouble. We tried and were frustrated because our kids were speaking gibberish. Ours was French from Belgium and France.
English has become the languages the most spoken in the world. All Europe in is an example as most young adults does speak it.
Why do we spend money for people who do not want to learn? Every time I call and utility, I have to push one for English speaking? Does that mean that on my bill I am paying for another language personal?
As a legal independent immigrant and very happy the amnesty bill died accept that people who breaks the law get legitimacy as abiding citizen! No way, let the law put 20 years ago enforced. I also think that we have to change the born in USA makes you an American by birth to only Americans parents.
The reality is that as we do not teach to limits births we are a planets in deep problem. The poor reproduce at a faster pace. They produce babies even when they cannot even feed the ones that are dying in their hands. This does not make any sense!
A friend of mine went to China, an architect that has been all over the world. Says it was unbelievable.
He said that in ten years they will be the number one.
Bush has no god. With the Supreme Court he has destroyed us.
Welcome to hell!
John,
your post is dead-on ... but it's not too late for you to learn Italian! i've been studying on and off since marrying my Italian wife six years ago. it's a beautiful language.
hareli @ 62:
I meant the 1800s, which was the 19C. They were imported to seed the South. Scots for bankers. Irish to be the maids.
OK - let's get to the point. The GOP wants cheap labor. The Dems want votes (they think). We can argue all day about the merits of charity and compassion vs law enforcement and cultural values, but that's the bottom line coming from our "leaders".
I'm sure everyone here is sincere in his/her beliefs and statements, but those of us trying to work and take care of our families don't need any more competition, regardless of it's source. Perhaps that sounds cold to some of you, but if you don't take care of your family, do you really think either party will?
not stupid @ 63:
Of course they will be, We went over there with our technology and know-how to get cheap product, trained them in our ways, and gave them our designs. The Chinese signed contracts for five years and after that, said screw you. Because they could make it themselves. Now we plan on outsourcing 50 million of our top white-collar jobs to India by 2013. That does not include China's figures. Our stupidity, our greed, gave this country away.
Those 50 million white-collar jobs would represent a much higher return to our tax base had those jobs stayed here. We lost the spending power of those jobs. We lost the taxes. We lost the productivity. We lost the brain power. And we left our own highly skilled workers bereft. THAT'S the real travesty. Not this phony anti-immigration shit we've witnessed recently. This phony self-destructive xenophobia drummed up by an anchorman who gets a rise in ratings and salary as a result. So who's being used here.
The US cannot be compared to France or Belgium, countries whose size fits into our back-pocket. Xenophobia serves them. Not the USA.
I'm an immigrant too. I got my citizenship in a heartbeat.
Tom Mullowney @ 66:
No. But the threat, if you're not an outdoor worker, is outsourcing. One in 4 jobs is now outsourced. That's what people should be screeching about. At last when you get your salary, you go out in your community and spend your money at home. And you pay taxes into US coffers.
We lose ALL OF THAT with outsourcing.
Tom,
Did you know that Texas would be broke if it weren't for the payroll and sales tax paid by illegal aliens? The comptroller did a study of 2005, first of its kind. $17.x billion was the figure they brought in. Without it, Texas would be broke. Ditto the Social Security Fund. Illegals place billions into it and Medicare every year that they will never see. $187 billion since 1986. Social Security figures.
I refuse to speak Arabic with my parents when we're in public just to avoid the stares and the condescending tone we sometimes get, especially after 9/11. Perhaps one day I'll grow a spine and have some pride.
Either way it beats living in Israel as a second class citizen and being treated like a black man in 1960s Mississippi (minus the lynching).
Come on, John.
Don´t fool yourself. I´d say you never really wanted to speak Italian. I´m German, brought up in Germany by German speaking parents and I´m living in Germany. My English sounds a bit clumsy, I know that, but I´m capable of reading and understanding even Arthur Silber´s sometimes quite complex essays or, for example, the Congressional Oversight Manual because I want it. So get off your lazy ass and stop whining. Otherwise I´m considering to call you a liar.
"Because of that I never learned Italian and it often upset me as I grew up and appreciated what a gift it would have been to speak a second language."
It´s no gift to speak a foreign language, it´s work.
Progressives used to be against illegal immigration, and immigration in general. Pure and simply, it hurts the working class. It wasn't until someone came up with the idea that protecting the working class against the flood of cheap labor was racist that the progressives turned to the side of the conservatives. It is amazing that Tancredo protects the working class for racist reasons, while the Ted Kennedy's protect corporate interests for "civil rights" reasons.
I wish the progressives would go back to protecting the working man.
L.A. Confidential @ 32:
Like it or not, as sad as it is, this is VERY TRUE !! This IS the American Dream of now for the masses ! Immigrant, or indigenous.
"" What country isn’t made up of people who migrated from one location to another? Every country in the western hemisphere is no different than the U.S. A population descended from immigrants and descendants of immigrants.""
Absolutely NOT TRUE, at all - there is NO OTHER melting pot of peoples w/out strong generational roots as we have in the US/ Canada. Until the latest legal massive cross-border movement within the emerging European Union (still far from anything resembling the US), people there (and most other places outside of the US) lived in the same place, or very close by, for CENTURIES ! They could become a part of another country b/c of the moved borders, but that was it. Traditionally, Europeans spoke multiple languages, even the socially lower groups: economy, often survival, required it. Upper classes studied abroad, spoke often several langauges fluently, French ruled after Latin was chased away. With exception of very few, once Latin was eliminated in the Middle Ages, since about Renaissance (14-17th cent), each nation had ONE official language ! The language could be changing over centuries (French vs. German in border regions; Lithuanian vs. Polish once the Commonwealth was established in 1569, till 1795, the 3rd partition of Poland, gone till 1918, w/Wilson's "points" in Treaty of Versailles). In Lithuania: Russian official language of Soviet occupiers, till ~1990. But, generally population living in the same places - except of small numbers that emigrated mostly to the US/Canada.
Historically, only the aristocracy/nobility were free in all nations to move freely (even just travel!), and to own property. Without property, and being a peasant/serf/slave, the person could NOT / did NOT have ANY choice !! Was 'signed to the land' of the landowner ! Industrial revolution of the 19th C. produced the professionals, and, poor proletariat in the cities.
W/out going back to the Roman times, in the modern history, Napoleon was the first to understand ~ 1800's the power of immigration (economic and political/for personal freedoms), and 'democracy': pressed to recruit many soldiers/officers to his Legions to go on with wars, he officially declared: "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" (liberty/freedom, equality, brotherhood) - including the serfs from the already conquered nations. It did work, French formidable bureaucracy awarded them the new status, making them equal w/French FREE (still often poor/illiterate!) citizens. The Napoleonic Code, or Code Napoléon of 1804, solidified these edicts, and established the organized rule of law in most of continental Europe ==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code
(we inherited the messy Brit system, allowing for many shenanigans we suffer from .. luckily we have the written Constitution, absent in the UK, although ours is non-existent w/current mob in the WH and around Co-prez Cheney)
As of today, in the hills of Hispaniola (Dominican Republic/Haiti) there are blonde/blue eyed families living, not aware of much history, but, w/'Frenched' Polish last names: the descendants of Napoleon's Polish Legion who in tens of thousands joined French, to fight occupiers for "Your Freedom, and, ours". Poland was off the map, partitioned among Russia, Prussia, Austria, they had nowhere to go home to, there was no home. Some stayed in Hispaniola, abandoned by non-existing any more Napoleon's France. With for "Your Freedom, and, ours" Polish generals Pulaski and Kosciuszko came from France to fight and die for the emerging US of A: both (as French Lafayette) were aristocrats/nobles, fluent in French, w/some Russian and German knowledge, in addition to Polish.
With Napoleon's downfall, the great ideas also died, aristocracy, nobility, serfdom ruled again, until the Spring of Nations (1848) followed by 1861 edicts freeing serfs in backwards Russian empire, and all over Europe. Italy was unified also in 1861, but ALL within spoke Italian, didn't move anywhere. XIX century was very explosive in all areas of human existence, brought tremendous technological, social changes, also on the maps since borders could have moved by whatever treaty - but, NOT that many people ended up living smwhre else as before physically !
RayC @ 9:
It seems very few people here know, and fluently, any other language but English. "Knowing" the foreign languages, fooling around w/multiple 'official' languages, immigration in general, and, the immigration bill of late are VERY different issues.
US is in a unique position that due to the economic hegemony of England in the previous century, then of US latest 50-60 or so years, no wars within US territory, English language became the main language of any business conducted world-wide. English is NOT difficult as such - French or German are more so, non-western Russian, with cyrillic alphabet is a nightmare. Am not mentioning Asian group, w/Chinese, etc.
I am fluent in several languages, grew up in Europe, the family used 4 languages in everyday life. I can communicate in about 10 languages. I've lived in 5 countries, for a year or more in each, traveled to many more (work, and leisure). English is perfect, very precise, cool, as a language of legal, contractual documents, media, business, political, in general. It is not very poetic langauge of love, emotions, etc- French, Italian, Spanish, Slavic languages are much more expressive and sounding often nicer.
However, as mentioned above by other posters, due to multiple factors, the 'immigrants' seen/heard of/in the US are the poorest, who were outcasts in their own countries. Marginalising the issue to Mexico is misleading , despite the overwhelming numbers. Any EU subject fluent in English, educated, even experienced in desired line of work, ready to contribute to the US economy right away, is treated as badly as the illiterate (also in Spanish) Mexican. The US immigration system SUCKS to heavens, and this last bill did little else but deliver massive fodder for corporate, and small owner exploitation enterprises, lowering the wages for all within the US borders as a result. See " take on debt you'll have a Plasma TV" above.
The human factor, legalising the already present within our borders, cannot be dealt with w/out understanding WHO is LEGAL and ILLEGAL within our borders, and why/how !
From a poster above: ""why should people who break our laws get a leg up on those that have followed the rules and emmigrated here legally?"
Why a hard working (illegal) Mexican, not receving/not entitled to any US govt services, working like animal for peanuts in the agriculture, paying our taxes (scalped..) is 'illegal", while millions of Russian hordes came "legally', receving FULL American welfare from the moment they step off the plane (air tickets paid also by the US taxpayers through the non-profits, set-up solely for the purpose of transferring the US taxpayers money into the Soviet citizen hands ??!!! Soviet mob coming "legally', financed by all of us !! Hundreds of thousands processed straight into SSI, at the crazy conversion factor: paying them U$ 10 for every idiot ruble of the bankrupt Soviet system ! Bringing in their elderly parents, and assigning the parents US Medicaid paid 24-hr assistants, etc, etc - NO American-born/ naturalized non-Russian ever gets anything similar ! That's why the Medicare and Medicaid are broken: millions from Soviet nowhere, given what no American citizens ever get !! WHY ???! And, if you knew their language as I do, and traveled/ worked there, before the Soviet crash, and after, you would see clearly 99% of these people were not the persecuted ones, but they were the ones persecuting others, who still struggle in Russia under KGB's Putin of the soulful eyes. I've never met/ heard of a single Russian"refugee" who wouldn't be a Soviet Communist party member - the party of terror, killing, against the ones that were not with it. The perfect "jewish pedigree' papers could be obtained in Russia for U$ 1,000-1,500, proposed to you on the street, by hookers, or their pimps (some were 'pimping' only the fake papers, acceptable to the US authorities .. Brooklyn certified 'translation-mills' translate Soviet documents from cyrillic- who is EVER checking the originals, and understanding what they spell out ??!!).. I've met Russian 'doctors', with U$ 500,- Russian 'med-school' diplomas, who were anything but MD's in their Soviet lives, etc, etc.. The engineeering Russian degree, w/ our govt 'certified translation' is ~ U$300, -
These are the VOTES for specific group of politicians, who made sure of the special treatment, including Holy Joe Lie-berman, who now wants to bomb Iran badly. BTW: 99% of Soviets within our borders prescribe/ vote for/ the 'strong fist' treatment to anything/ anybody: Soviet system trained them so.
If one understands this, any issue of 'legal" vs. "illegal' becomes moot .. About 10 million Soviets were admitted to the US, statistics is camouflaged, broken into the fmr 'republics' - by observing/hearing Russian language/ their lack of basic civilized behaviour in NYC, one knows there are more than a million in NYC only. In Seattle Section 8 new housing was built for ~ 40, 000 of them within last decade or so, assigned to mostly/ exclusively Russians for many years now, nice apts that non-Russians never see. And, they DO take even OUR professional jobs, and screw up whatever still works. They say it's hard to un-learn what Soviet system embedded in them. Reminding that Soviet system went to hell has no reaction. Most never even think about learning English, and proper English - they are served around US by special non-profits, taxpayers funded all services that US born Hispanics or Afro-Americans never see - all in Russian.. In many govt offices in NYC one doesn't hear English: Russian rules everywhere, they come, drink tea all day, make private phone calls on the taxpayer paid phone lines, scold anybody that has any intention to work - thus interrupting their Russian daily palaver, etc - just like it was in the Soviet Union. Non-Russian speakers cannot work there, no English is spoken. And, they are paid 100% salaries. And, they complain they should get more. And, they hate anybody not Russian, as inferior.
The bilingual services/ educational is nonsense: kids kept in non-English classes are kept in a GHETTO, deprived of the chance of an equal start, for a better life !
Children of ANY age catch up very fast, need maybe few months, up to a year help in a native language. Any longer is just a support for this ridiculous industry, preying on the least qualified to say what works for them. Providing individual extra instruction in ENGLISH, after hours, could benefit some kids. They don't get it, are kept in lower-level 'special-ed' = non-English classes, creating taxpayers funded second-grade citizens ! for life ..
Liquidating the bilingual education wouldn't hurt children, if providing personalized additional English instruction for the same/less money !). To the contrary, it would provide for faster assymilation of kids into mainstream America, giving them more needed confidence. Confident students are higher achievers. The native language spoken at home would not have it disapear. The only schools affected would be yeshivas, which are not really bilingual, do not teach in English anyway, are devoted to Torah/ Talmud study, should never be (as strictly religious), but are funded under builingual education in the North-East. Your taxes at work.
Last and not least, it's pitiful so few people in the US have knowledge (and, REAL knowledge )of foreign languages. US propaganda would not be served so boldly had there been more foreign language speakers - parochial attitude rules w/out active opening to the world. Our schools don't do even the minimum. Any continental Euro country requires students to go through 2-3 foreign languages in addition to the native language, to receive the secondary education diploma. One cannot graduate any university w/out additional foreign language instruction, every semester. There are NO dinosaur studies though, as the current US fashion is.
With the fantastic internets, audio capabilities, how many of you tried to learn (at least to read ..) any other language from the tubes ? Check out French/ Italian youtube versions ? Music ??? Daily news in any other but English media ?? that's a start !!
Regardless of all else, I am for ONE official language that we already have in the US: ENGLISH. We have enough of Spanglish and any other mongrelized versions. Like it or not, people cannot be second-grade citizens in their new country. Always being 'interpreted' to.. If their kids have to learn in English, the parents will catch up from kids. Everyday a little more. Provide classes for them where they work, mandated by law. America needs to get stronger, more confident, otherwise we'll become the totally parochial bully of the broken-English speaking world. Electing another Bush disaster.
Woody Says:
Progressives used to be against illegal immigration, and immigration in general. Pure and simply, it hurts the working class. It wasn’t until someone came up with the idea that protecting the working class against the flood of cheap labor was racist that the progressives turned to the side of the conservatives. It is amazing that Tancredo protects the working class for racist reasons, while the Ted Kennedy’s protect corporate interests for “civil rights” reasons.
I wish the progressives would go back to protecting the working man
i agree with you woody, i am glad that the immigration bill went down like the titanic, all the big corporatist was for it, and i didn't buy ted kennedy lies of civil rights, even my senior senator dianne feinstien co sponser it, but thank goodness junior senator barbara boxer was vocally against it because she states that it will create a permnament lower class that would destroy the working man.
touchy subject for me! Louisiana Cajuns (derived from 'Cadiennes, or Acadiennes) had their language virtually wiped out under Theodore Roosevelt, who said there is only room for one language. My husband's grandparents and great- aunts and uncles often tell tales of how they were slapped for speaking french in school- they barely remember it now, unless of course they run into someone is remains fluent. my great-grandmother was made to be so afraid that no one even spoke of her french background until her passing. and my cousin's father's mother barely spoke at all for fear that anyone might hear her accent.
many say they were here before the pilgrims, having escaped genocide in nova scotia. they were treated very poorly, as many immigrants to the US were and have long been. it has made me resentful for not having learned the language, and my husband always wished he'd learned it as well. i wanted my children to learn their heritage and family's language, and a couple years back, i considered moving to Lafayette, where there is a french immersion program for my children, in which i also hoped to someday teach after getting my degree. cajun french is slightly different than standard french in dialect, and then you have newer cajun names for wildlife and technology, etc, and many compare it to "olde french."
But you would not BELIEVE the opposition i met- and a lot of it was from cajuns i spoke to. many of them consider the language "dirty," and do not want their children having anything to do with the [very small and optional] program. A lot of others still curse the idea of bilingualism, citing pat buchanan or some other asshole's brain fart that biligualism is the start of the end of every good society...even though most other "industrialized" countries around the world speak at least two different languages.
it enriches our education and our culture, but lord knows there are a lot of people who foolishly do not want it, and not only do they not want it for themselves, but they don't want anyone else to have it either. i often rudely compare those types to "aryans." :roll:
pinhead @ 75:
OneTrickPony @ 76:
Were it not for the hollowing out of our working classes, NAFTA a one-way ticket to nothingness, for corporate america on-the-cheap, for economic desperation and bleeding-out of what we once produced (which is now next to nothing), for a government with an attitude of 'let 'em die', I'd say sure.
Immigration is a sweet refuge. Or was.
3 years ago 2 grackles showed up in our backyard habitat, now there are 75 at least and the more peaceful birds are gone because the grackles kill them and destroyed their nestlings. How can we ignore cause and effect???
Tancredo is insane. Kennedy I now doubt. Bush uses, kills, divides and conquers.
Boxer is the only voice that is clear about social consequences of 12-20 millions on our deflating souffle of national resources.
As a lst generation american with 400 years of history in Quebec, I cannot live there without 7 years of criteria to meet. I'd love to bring my family back to Canada but haven't the resources, barely keeping body and soul together. If we took up residence there we'd be thrown out on the next flight back to the u.s..
OneTrickPony, you are maddeningly correct.
You can't reason with doublethink. The suffering of those americans whose work went overseas, without healthcare, whose homes are lost, well, the Override button has been hit.
Never ever discuss the heart of the matter.
pinhead @ 75:
Of course other languages/ cultures are enriching.
But America never was a country/ nation of intellect/culture/education, which were never in such respect as sack of dollars. The muscle and primitive perseverance got us to California. even now intellect is more of baggage in most of the US. Do you see any in Bush, Rove, Cheney, Delay, Frist, etc, etc. Obama is preaching as a Southern pastor, not an erudite speaker. The same w/ Hillary, empty talk w/slogans peppered in. And all the repugs (remember Mitt and his dog ?). These people of means never tried anything beyond folksy - even w/ fancy degrees. This is VERY AMERICAN !!
Here's the major confusion again: to 'speak' the foreign language does not impose much: just DO IT ! NOBODY can ban it !! The earlier in life, the easier it is. And, with any other language after the first one. Supposedly the brain gets wired differently. You do NOT depend on anybody for it ! Just DO IT !!
Fixating on some political issues without learning any language is a typical American whine nowadays, regardless blue or red. So, we stay parochial, and whining. And, impose upon the world how to live, although we know naught except of the narrow backyard.
Worldwide, especially in Europe, within each official language there are 'dialects" spoken, but only separatists of weird colors propose using them as "official" language. In Northen Italy's Alto Adige mountains Italian spoken is very different from the correct Italian in not far away Milan. My multilingual non-Italian niece speaks it bc of mountain climbing/ hiking there (and being fluent in 'educated' Italian first) - most of Italians know it exists, have NO further idea about Alto Adige dialect, and don't care. Why should they ? The same happens in almost any EU country, with ANY language and its dialects, some very old. Did you try to understand an English Yorkshire dialect spoken by a true one from Yorkshire ?? Good luck !!!
If there are no others using it, that dialect outlived its time, no matter what's the sentimental value. Teach your kids regular French, a beautiful language - if they will insist upon smthg more exotic, it will be much easier than starting from ZERO level, ie. English only. Proposing that an archaic langauge would be "official' would be quite a ridiculous folly - it's NOT about lording over others, but better communicating with the rest of the world ! Mandating other peoples to learn some archaic dialect (and, who will pay for it ??) would be quite ridiculous, and prejudiced as well, just the other way.
Yes, people DO speak at least two diff languages in 'most other "industrialized" countries''' - but, these are NOT OFFICIAL languages. People all over Europe 'speak' more than two languages, but except of a few small nations, these are NOT official languages. Belgium has 2, with 10.5 mln population it's a personalized experience almost (one could say a spill from neighbouring France and Netherlands). Switzerland has several (spill also), but the whole nation is 7.5 mln people - less than NYC population.
In NYC people speak many more langauges ! (my neighbors, in just ONE building come from over 80 ! countries, French is as often spoken in the elevators - but on official issues we all communicate in ONE OFFICIAL LANGUGE: ENGLISH).
There are French and Italian language private (expensive) schools from kindergarten through secondary level in NYC, bc there is demand for them. They award the respective French/Italian diplomas, along the American ones, recognized world-wide. Public education system is a disaster in itself, but NYers don't demand strongly enough that it gets better. If the basic reading and math is always below level, how can one think about foreign langauges ? They cannot read/ write in English they need to function in the society, why spend tax money to replace it w/ Spanish ??! Which they can chose later as a foreign langauge.
We have the country we deserve - like it or not. Since for the most "take on debt you’ll have a Plasma TV” (see the post above) does rule, we all contribute to the mess we are in. Thankfully we have C&L, these isuues can be discussed, hopefully leading to some action and changes.
The key word is ILLEGAL no one disputes immigrants coming through the gates legally. We in the southern states are getting the brunt of killings, 100 on the Brownsville border in less than a year, several were sheriffs.
The illegals actually drop their childen at the border to walk over each day to attend schools on border towns. They try very hard to have babies on U.S. hospitals so the babies can now bring over families. Hospitals are closing because of no funds.
The laws for immigrants need changing, no more border babies, and strengthen the border not deplete it and jail the border agents doing their job, yes, 5 have gone to jail trying to stop illegals. Is that insane or what ?
Other countries do not allow such loose illegal immigration, why should the U.S. ?
OneTrickPony - it is outrageous what you report, but not that surprising w/ all the political corectness nonsense we have all over.
Is there not enough people to get it straight ? Through referendum, or ? The wealthy who's kids go to private schools I assume, will not be able to walk the streets in a few years, certainly not to get their SS problems fixed in Spanish.
We cannot be isolated from the world, but, there is ONE CONSTANT: English as an official and first language ! Divisions breed social unrest - no common language to start is the beginning of the civil war. Halliburton reception centers w/ watchtowers are ready !
Give me a break! We have multiple languages today because our ancient ancestors in different caves made different grunting noises when they pointed at a tree. The only reason for language is to communicate. A modern society should want to communicate more effectively. Too many people today use language as an identity indicator or to be able to say something someone else doesn't understand. Both of these are negative to a growing maturing society. Too many people today are segregationists and fight growing up. My dad is tougher then your dad should be something we want to leave behind. Your people dress funny. You have peculiar social customs. When are we going to quit all of this and be human? Will it take aliens to unite us? We seem to need a common enemy. The person from another country, from a different religion or just on the other side of the fence.
Mark, but to take up illegal residency and have the twisted balls to want to overhaul that country's reference language to their own I am speechless to describe.
A few thoughts. My father came here when he was 18 years old. He always jokingly asked, "how come I've been in this country longer than you've been alive, but you speak better than me?" Also, friends who teach ESL tell me that kids in the program teach each other - as the instructors are not necessarily bi-lingual. I've commented before about my latino neighbors who are caretakers. The adults are very shy about speaking to me in English. The children however, are very fluent and excellent students. Anyway, we all manage to make ourselves understood and it's congenial. Sometimes, as I've experienced, problems in relationships are caused by more than language differences. I've lived in a variety of social settings. You would be amazed at how check book differences impede mutual understanding. But then, maybe not. We all know that we're seldom invited to sup with the very wealthy, and conversely, we are not so keen to chat with someone who seems to have no idea about, "real life". Perhaps if there are solutions, they must come from all of us and a willingness to keep an open mind. It's always easy to expect the other guy to make accomodations to our comfort level, but I wonder if there aren't other ways of thinking about differences, and what we can do to focus on our mutual humanity. We will never be a homogenous nation, it is our blessing and curse.
How many of the people griping about illegal residents are descended from people that signed on to a ship as crew and jumped overboard and swam to shore to live here. All you had to do to live here for the first 100 years was show up. Isn't that what they are doing today?
It takes time for people to adjust to anything. Old people are still complaining about using computers and programming vcr's.
Willingness and an open mind are good things. Do not assume that I have a closed one.
Mark - Immigrants were proud to learn English. My dad at 19 came through Ellis Island from Germany, in 1922. He went to night school to learn English and became a citizen. He, also, felt his children should speak English, not German. That is called assimulating and respecting the country that provides you opportunity.
When you enter a country legally you know and want to obey that country's laws.
But if employers were shut down from employing illegal workers, the flow would stop. No money, no illegals.
texas lady @ 87:
I agree with the employer part. They do it so that they do not have to pay a legal wage.
I refuse to assume that all people coming here illegally are not good people. I live in California and I like people no matter who they are. That is why I moved here in 85. Over half of the real criminals here are citizens. When you go to a court and see that most of the people in line are minorities you change your thinking. We allow in all kinds of people but do the citizens pay attention to what our government does when they make up the eligibility list. It is a natural thing for people to want a better life for the next generation. How many ancestors from whatever ethnic background came here with the only shirt on their backs?
Mark - We agree that the system is totally broken and no one in authority wants to fix it. If we are to become a bordeless country then we need better identification, a central data bank of everyone. This you realize goes against America's free spirit. However, in Europe everyone has to have papers of some sort.
Many criminals in CA and elsewhere, are not the working poor but the super wealthy who have lawyers to avoid paying taxes. Newsweek report on Rupert Murdock.
We, the taxpayers, have to take back the government, let the people working FOR us know change is coming. No more free rides from lobbyists. But until we all speak up, the government will be for and by the rich only.
...but do you really think that this country's problems are due to the illegal immigrants???
I always found funny how the american "public opinion" is directed or redirected, shaped or reshaped in wathever way the ones in power want to. More than one here will end up having to learn spanish anyway because the SS benefits, if any, will obligate them to retire in Mexico. Hasta la vista amigos...
Don Q., the fabric of this country is disintegrating for every citizen and non-citizen except for the parasitic upper 3% sucking it dry.
If 12 million illegal immigrants is supposedly so great for the U.S. then why stop there. Let's open the borders for anyone who wants to come in. Let's eliminate all passport and visa requirements. Let's truly become an immigrant nation.
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