Countdown: Joe Wilson and Patrick Fitzgerald respond to the Scooter Libby Disgrace
By Logan Murphy Sunday Jul 01, 2007 7:59pm
On this evening's "Countdown" Keith Olbermann interviewed Ambassador Joe Wilson about the President's commutation of Scooter Libby's prison sentence. Wilson held little back, referring to President Bush as "corrupt to the core" and describes how this national disgrace affects his wife, Valerie Plame, the victim of Libby's crimes, and it's implications for current and future CIA operatives. Ambassador Wilson also calls on Patrick Fitzgerald to release all information he amassed during his investigation and for Congress to open an investigation to find out what really happened.
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The President's actions are a slap in the face to the Wilsons and the nation. If you would like to help support the Wilsons please visit their website - http://www.wilsonsupport.org/
Patrick Fitzgerald has responded, you can read it below the fold...
We fully recognize that the Constitution provides that commutation
decisions are a matter of presidential prerogative and we do not
comment on the exercise of that prerogative.
We comment only on the statement in which the President termed the
sentence imposed by the judge as "excessive." The sentence in this
case was imposed pursuant to the laws governing sentencings which
occur every day throughout this country. In this case, an experienced
federal judge considered extensive argument from the parties and then
imposed a sentence consistent with the applicable laws. It is
fundamental to the rule of law that all citizens stand before the bar
of justice as equals. That principle guided the judge during both the
trial and the sentencing.Although the President's decision eliminates Mr. Libby's sentence of
imprisonment, Mr. Libby remains convicted by a jury of serious
felonies, and we will continue to seek to preserve those convictions
through the appeals process.
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This may be the most blatent abuse of the office of President ever.
Ambassador Wilson: Dubya is "corrupt to the core."
ROTTEN. Dubya is a ROTTEN piece of garbage.
and you can still believe their will be elections next yr, good luck to yah
Ambassador Wilson is right about all the other CIA operatives...I wonder how many lost their lives because of Armitage and all this Plame Gate crap?
Logan-
The way the first paragraph of the Fitzgerald quote looks is like poetry. Doesn't quite read that way, though.
Is this not the final straw? Are the American people still not outraged at the blatant disregard of law by this administration? When will we wake up? The Bush White House makes Watergate look like a misdemeanor. C'mon, people! Call your representatives! Write your local newspapers! Start the popular movement toward impeachment -- and justice! -- now!
Tell me you have Marcy Wheeler on a video segment you will post. PLEASE
NEVER, EVER again will I listen to another Republican asswipe talk about being for "law & order." This so much more disgraceful than anything Clinton ever did in the Oral Office.
[Deleted. Moronic flame bait-Sitemonitor]
Fitz lost this round due to a technical, but he has plenty of fight in him… I hope. We sure need guys like him on our side.
tyree @ 3:
Exactly. There is no evidence supporting that the Executive intends to cede the Office of the President to whoever is elected by popular vote in 2008. They've had no problems ignoring or circumventing the rule of law for other issues, yet you expect me to believe that voraciously power-hungry men intend to adhere to the very law that will take away all their hard-earned power when it comes time?
This is why NOT having impeachment on the table is as silly as it is damning and will result in the final act that will make slaves of us all: Martial Law to be imposed by suddenly withdrawn troops, to maintain order and assist in the shift from President to Dictator Bush.
WAKE UP
Has precedent been set? Does every convicted criminal serving time that was suggested in sentencing guidelines now have an avenue for appeal no the grounds of an excessive sentence? Seems they should. The Honorable George W. Bush stated himself that a 30 month sentence, appropriate as it was, was excessive.
Gee, I wonder if the President considered commuting the fine and the probation, but keeping the jail time?
[Deleted. Moronic flame bait-Sitemonitor]
Bush Broke 2000 Promise to Fitz - and Us:
"So when I put my hand on the Bible, I will swear to not only uphold the laws of our land, I will swear to uphold the honor and dignity of the office to which I have been elected, so help me God."
"In my administration, we will ask not only what is legal but what is right. Not just what the lawyers allow, but what the public deserves."
For the history, see:
"Neither Right Nor Legal: Libby and the Bush 2000 Standard."
Anger doesn't begin to explain how I feel about these criminals. Mrs Wilson you were robbed of justice on this day and our president proved once again he has no respect for America.
IMPEACH.
PROTEST.
REVOLT.
THIS COUNTRY HAS A MORALLY BANKRUPT LEADER.
OUR SYSTEM OF JUSTICE IS IN RUINS.
WHERE WAS BUSH'S COMPASSION FOR THE PEOPLE HE SENTENCED TO DIE IN TEXAS???? TOO HARSH A PUNISMENT? I GUESS WHEN YOU'VE GOT AN ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO ENDORSES ANYTHING SHORT OF ORGAN FAILURE AND DEATH AS FAIR GAME FOR PRISONER TREATMENT, . . . . .
[deleted]
Off topic and delusional.
Yet still almost 30% of Americans approve of the Oligarchs being above the law.
--WKW
Outraged, huh?
Here are some opinions from the LA Times comments area:
Bush did what others befoe have done. Why all the misery? Did your cell phone shut off, computer crash, ipod die, car stop, a/c go out? Why do so many people want to come here if it's so awful? Maybe you would rather have Chavez as President! VICTIMS!!
Frankly, he should have pardoned Libby altogether. The fact that he was convicted of something that someone else admitted to doing....and was note even a crime was insane in the first place!! This whole thing was pure politics plane and simple.
Bush didn't go far enough here. Libby should get a full pardon. No one should have to do time for lying about a crime that was never commited. If you think he should do time then you should.
Did anyone count in the last moments of Clinton who was pardoning REAL criminals. I am thankful the President had the courage to do what any of those critics would have done were they President,. He used his power to right a wrong that had little or nothing to do with the law...just politics.
Bout time the President did this. it was long overdue. Good for him for not allowing himself to be bullied by the extreme right.
The guy was a scapegoat. He didn 't deserve the time.
Bush did the right thing. Libby was following orders. Why should Libby take the fall. Besides a commutation is NOT A PARDON.
Clinton did it for real criminals!
It's amazing how people are pouncing on Bush for a commuted sentence yet these same people were no where to be found during Clinton's "Pardongate" when 140 pardons were issued for political favors for the Democrats. Libby was NOT pardoned, but Clinton's cronies were.
Yes, they are minority opinions. But Bush is favored by a minority of Americans. This won't change anything. Americans will not march, they will not protest, they will probably not even vote come '09 (they never do). Sorry, that's simply the way things are in Bush's fiefdom.
Oops, I meant '08, of course.
By the way, this site no longer available to Safari users -- what's up with that?
William K. Wolfrum @ 19:
What is your cited, statistically sound source?
gary, I'm trying to be a good girl and not respond to trolls (lost it over at No Quarter and took a bite. A troll at an ex CIA agent's website, too stupid to breath or suicidal, you decide) but people here are in a foul mood and considering over 70 percent of the country felt Libby shouldn't be let off the hook, I' d be careful where you spout that shit. This country is a tinder box and one wrong comment from twits like you could cause a whole lot of trouble. Quit while you're ahead.
I have been dreading to hear this since three o'clock... guess I better face up to it now. :-(
Yay! Another opportunity for the Democrats to run from the chance to take a stand!
I emailed Nancy Pelosi, not that it will have any effect, and told her it is time to put impeachment back on the table. Bush is continuing Libby's obstruction of justice. Fitzgerald is just one of the Bushie USA's. He got his name taken off of the list to be fired, didn't he. That's probably after he decided not to call Cheney to the stand. He's a good Bushie.
gary, honey, read Anatomy of Deceit by Marcy Wheeler if you really want to know the facts of the case. I'll even help you with the big words.
However, I'm sure you don't really want to know; you would just rather put your dumbass hick act on. I've got news for you: when your dumbass hick act is that good, it's probably not an act.
gary @ 13:
If I remember correctly, the magazine cover was more than a few months after she'd been 'outed'. And she wasn't seen without sunglasses or some other was to conceal all the particulars of her identity. It was mostly done as a lark for the Wilsons, a way to express their side of the story, which up until then, had gone unheard by the mainstream public.
Yes, she was really under cover. No, the magazine cover didn't happen before her cover was blown, but in fact happened as a direct result of.
gary @ 9:
Heh, troll alert!
foolme1ns, wrote my reps as well, I'm beyond fucking livid. That little vein in my temple has been going "wonga, wonga, wonga" all day. I just want to hit somebody....hmmmmm.
[deleted]
You're done.
Gary, your meds are calling.
I agree with Gary. Fuck the rule of law I'm going to start stealing and any god damn thing else I want to do that is illegal.
Un -fking believable
How about ALL the CIA undercover agents outing themselves...as it doesn't seem that important to the bush mafia.
It's an official dictatorship by an unelected president and self appointed VP.
Had Enough Yet?
gary, grow some balls. Come here and spew and not expect a little spittle back at ya, geez.
Gary, are these honest observations, or are you trying to play 'Bait-A-Pinko' with already angry people?
gary @ 31:
Now that's a good question although you aren't asking it in good faith. Another good question is why he didn't indict Cheney as a co-conspirator. I think we put too much faith in Fitzgerald. He is a Republican after all. Scooter was the designated fall guy for Cheney. Fitsgerald could have taken this investigation to the hilt and declined to do so. Note what Jonathan Turly has to say about this down a thread.
Can the revolution just begin today already?
How do I get ahold of Nancy Pelosi? (not that I think it will do any good)
baby jesus is really pissed off
baby jesus is going to whip up a disaster
gary @ 38:
I suppose you had no problem with Clinton lying about a BJ too. After all, it was consensual sex, not rape.
gary @ 31:
Now that's a good question although you aren't asking it in good faith. Another good question is why he didn't indict Cheney as a co-conspirator. I think we put too much faith in Fitzgerald. He is a Republican after all. Scooter was the designated fall guy for Cheney. Fitsgerald could have taken this investigation to the hilt and declined to do so. Note what Jonathan Turly has to say about this down a thread.
No gary, by all means, keep asking dumbass questions to which you really have no interest in getting any answers too. Keep in mind, all those laws Bush broke, twisted, or other wise shat on will still be fresh in Hillary's mind and ours when she takes office in 2009. Hmmmmm, maybe Mitt Rim-Me's idea of doubling gitmo IS a good idea.
oh come on. libby only lied and obstructed a federal investigation regarding a cia agent involved w/weapons of mass destruction. how important can this be to national security??
Libby was not a rapist or murderer, or something like that.
Yeah your right he and his cohorts just committed treason and lied under oath to cover that up.
No biggie, move along.
Gary=Douche
gary @ 41:
I would just let the facts speak for themselves. Again, refer to the Turley/Tyrell debate.
Here, I'll post it for you seeing as you're too lazy to check it out yourself.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/02/jonathan-turley-cheney-should-h...
gary @ 38:
I suppose you had no problem with Clinton lying about a BJ too. After all, it was consensual sex, not rape.
gary @ 31:
Now that's a good question although you aren't asking it in good faith. Another good question is why he didn't indict Cheney as a co-conspirator. I think we put too much faith in Fitzgerald. He is a Republican after all. Scooter was the designated fall guy for Cheney. Fitsgerald could have taken this investigation to the hilt and declined to do so. Note what Jonathan Turly has to say about this down a thread.
If Mr Wilson wants congress to do something, he's gonna have to wait until we get a congress who will do something....ANYTHING...that doesn't include voting themselves a raise.
Forcible rape? What are you insinuating? More of the predictable but but Clinton routine? Give it up, you aren't any good at it.
Nice try Gary to minimalize what Libby did--so what is aiding and abetting in treason to you, a misdemeanor? Wake the hell up.
Libby was not a rapist or murderer, or something like that
Well since it was mostly the CIA's own plants at the paper like Judith Miller then I would assume that the operators of those secret operations wanted them known.
Let's see, how about gary and K.O. Sucks sharing a room at the new and improved Bill and Hillary Clinton Memorial Gitmo. God, she will have her revenge on the likes of Newt, Cheney, Bush, Rummy....oh man, hell hath no fury and all that...oh jeez, gary and KOsucks, you'd better hope she's not menopausal.
Bush 41: “I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors.”
gary @ 31:
Looks like you'll have to get your probing questions answered at Faux News and not C&L.
damnit, copy/paste is f'n
Wow Gary. Your quick!
gary @ 38:
Gary, I assume you were angry on 9/11 when the 'terrorists' destroyed the Twin Towers and attacked the Pentagon, yes?
Yet you aren't angry when our own people attempt to undermine and destroy the very rules and laws that hold our society together? What happened to 'One Nation, Under God, Indivisible'? No? How about 'defending ourselves from all enemies, both foreign and domestic'?
Why AREN'T you angry? These kinds of actions DO personally affect me. But again, I have the strange ability to see the 'larger picture', an ability I gather not all my fellow countrymen are blessed with.
Snowball at 38, I cannot be sure why Fitzgerald backed down, especially when he seemed so close to indicting Rove at one time, but back down he did. Maybe it was because he couldn't get at the evidence, maybe he was facing a ruined career if he went too far, or maybe he was part of a plan of containment from the beginning. After his opening statement at the trial and after the trial was over, he certainly put a lot of innuendo out there that Cheney was involved, but there was nothing in between to substantiate it. I know Libby did not testify, but there were other witnesses Fitzgerald could have drawn out about Cheney. So, Turley's statement that he had expected Cheney to be named an unindicted co-conspirator surprised me, but I am glad to know that such a legal mind has the same questions and doubts that we lay people do.
KO,
Care to name names? Don't have any? Why how shocking. Feel free to take your backassward but but but Clinton bullshit elsewhere and spare us the history lesson.
I just emailed Jim Webb and asked to him to do something about these crooks. We'll see, I suppose.
gary @ 59:
Please show us your proof to the contrary. No? Okay, then.
WILD WEASEL @ 17:
This country not standing against this baffoon makes us morally bankrupt, the justice system is in ruins becuase we as the American people did nothing to stop it's distruction, yet you ask us to revolt...I'm sorry but I don't believe America has any revolt left in her. to be real you have to admit most people don't even care about what is going on and only know very few if any of the facts. Mostly they are easily tricked by the rightwing talking points and just go about their pathetic little lives as if their lives were somehow the only thing in the world that matters and when it does come down around all of us they will be surprised and probably want to blame those of us who have been screaming and protesting and trying to wake everyone we know up to what is going on in our country. but in the end, it just won't matter, becuase the people trying to bring us down don't really have any opponents...none of any real consequences anyway.
Snowball # 37
Let's kill this rumor right now. Fitzgerald is NOT a republican!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55560-2005Feb1?language=printer
{snip}
Fitzgerald is careful to be apolitical in his targets and his public life alike. He registered to vote as an Independent in New York, only to discover, when he began receiving fundraising calls, that Independent was a political party. He re-registered with no affiliation, as he did later in Chicago.
gary @ 68:
The fact that you insinuate genuine patriotism is a negative in your view says everything we need to know about you and your opinions.
Well, strap me to the roof and hose me down!
DAMN!
If the character Fred Thompson played on Law and Order had to deal with this commutation bullshit he would roll his eyes and issue a one-liner making plain his disagreement with political meddling. The real Fred Thompson praises it. Americans should really try to wrap their itty-bitty pea brains around the idea that actors on tv and in movies arent really the characters they play.
Jackarse @ 50:
The NY Times gets it's information from sources, and if it's info on the what the current administration is up to, it's likely from sources inside said administration. So yes, it is treason. Care to investigate the leaks coming from within the current administration? Oh wait, we've seen what becomes of such investigations.
Hey KO Sucks -
I knew that Libby wasn't going to see the inside of a jail cell, either. And I also know that he will likely be pardoned by Bush before his term runs out.
But mark my words - you're in dreamland if you think that this won't be an issue in 08. And it's a rich one - puts the lie quite neatly to the Law'n'Order Republicans. And attempting to use Slick Willie (I don't like him, either) as a red herring in your argument isn't going to do any good. Quite frankly, Clinton's entire crew were monks compared to this Administration.
Bush may be back in your good graces now, but remember this come November 08 - this commutation of Libby's sentence will play a major role in the Dem takeover of the White House, as well as further solidifying their majorities in the House and Senate. How will you feel then?
The GWB isn't even trying to pretend he cares a bit about the law. What happened to "Anyone involved in the leak will get fired." Then that turned into "I mean, anyone convicted of a crime will be fired." And now that has turned into, "Anyone convicted of a crime will simply go through the motions knowing that I will make sure he gets off easy." Nice.
I expected no less. Perjury and obstruction aren't crimes when committed by Republicans!
Still, Dick Cheney is the one who should be going to jail!
Fred Thompson is a lobbyist plain and simple. Repugs are kidding themselves, as usual.
gary @ 72:
I can't speak directly to that, but based on what we can know and investigate, an objective person would find many of the connections that persons who were involved with the paper in question give them increased possibility of foreknowledge. There is also the increased probability, given her history of articles, that she was given the go ahead by someone higher than her to write and publish the story.
So if someone were genuinely interested in an answer, instead of flip flopping about in a very trollish way, he or she would follow the chain of command and ask themselves how connected an editor and or news outlet owner would have to be to get a story as such released. Especially under an administration that is known for cherry picking stories across the media.
I'm not saying I have proof, I AM saying that this administration has made the concept of coincidence a fictional character in the same caliber of Santa Clause and Osama bin Laden.
Some quick answers to questions raised, based on broad reading on the issue . . .
Ambassador Wilson is right about all the other CIA operatives…I wonder how many lost their lives because of Armitage and all this Plame Gate crap?
The actual casualties involved are uncertain. Potential casualties have to at least be in the dozens. Plame ran the north African part of the CIA's world wide operation to track possible nuclear WMDs, which is why the Niger Yellow Cake file was on her desk. That part of our national intelligence defense was compromised if not destroyed for a time.
Is this not the final straw? Are the American people still not outraged at the blatant disregard of law by this administration?
The American people are outraged. However, most don't take the idea of writing letters to congressmen and editors seriously, as they have seen plenty of evidence over the years (on television, for the most part) that those people are not enraged and don't give a damn about the anger of the common folk. The people who do understand, as did Washington, Lincoln, and the Roosevelts, that good political theater makes good politics, are working for the other side. The side that wants to do good has no sense of theater, so they always look weak in action. The "American People" barely know they exist.
I never really understood what Libby did to Plame. Was she really a secret spy, and did Libby expose her?
Plame was really a secret agent, per the CIA and a dozen Federal judges who have worked on this case. She was exposed and her operation and career destroyed at the orders of--most likely--Dick Cheney--to punish her husband for blowing the whistle on the lies told by President Bush and Secretary of State Powell concerning the Niger Yellow Cake story, which has since been revealed as a scam run by an Italian con man on behalf of persons or persons unknown. Scooter Libby was one of several of Cheney's henchmen tasked with slipping Plame's ID out to various reporters in hopes of one of them blowing her cover. Bob Novak finally took the bait and did the deed after others avoided doing so. Libby lied repeatedly to the FBI to cover up the ultimate source of the leaks and block Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation. He was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice.
Has precedent been set? Does every convicted criminal serving time that was suggested in sentencing guidelines now have an avenue for appeal no the grounds of an excessive sentence?
Actually, all criminals already do have a right to appeal on that grounds. Since most of them are not rich, well connected white males with friends in Washington, it is unlikely that this commutation will do them any good.
The reason I ask is because I thought Richard Armitage was the first to reveal Plame, and Plame was already on some magazine cover with her husband before Libby entered the scene? I’m confused.
Armitage may or may not have given Plame's name to someone who should not have had it, but that person did not blow Plame's cover. Robert Novak did break Plame's cover, but that was not a crime. A government official deliberately trying to persuade or trick a reporter into blowing Plame's cover is a crime, and Fitzgerald was trying to find out who in the government was the ultimate source of the leak. Libby's lying blocked his investigation.
IIRC correctly, the magazine cover in question did not appear until months after Novak broke Plame's cover. In any event, Plame appearing on a magazine cover as Mrs. Valerie Wilson does not break her cover. Novak revealing that she ran a CIA front under the name Valerie Plame did break her cover.
What about Sandy Berger? What’s the big deal about Libby? Wasn’t what Sandy Berger did more serious — yet he never went to jail. What gives?
Sandy Berger made a photocopy of some minor office documents he was not supposed to copy and left a building with them. The security breach was trivial and I believe he paid a fine and lost some security privileges. Blowing Plame's cover wrecked a CIA operation designed to track loose nuclear material in Africa to prevent terrorists from nuking American cities. That is a much more serious matter.
"Yet still almost 30% of Americans approve of the Oligarchs being above the law." . . . What is your cited, statistically sound source?
More to the point, does your source indicate that those people really understand what has happened here? Remember, most of them get their news from Right Wing propaganda outlets.
Have you had enough fun poking gary with a stick yet? His ik is all over liberal/progressive websites right now. They're just here to enjoy our outrage. Pay it no mind, he's really not that good anyhow, remember the good old days when trolls actually pissed you off rather than annoyed you.
don't feed the trolls.......buh buh buh......It's all Clintons fault.........the trolls just can't get over how much BETTER Clinton was at being Prez than this asswipe.
And when you throw in all his co-horts in his admin..........losers.But for good measure this VP decided to out Covert CIA agents ......If Bill Clinton did this...can you imagine the fall out.
gary @ 85:
Gary, I know you don't get told this, but here in reality, it IS our way. I'd tell you to visit, but it's kind of a scary place for persons of your mindset to wander around in. But thanks for playing.
gary @ 85:
Your logic is false. Straw man. So transparent.
Strawberry @ 84:
He's niether annoying me or pissing me off. This is the first, and probably the last, "good news" that the wingnuts have had, or will have, for a very long time. Let them get their little rocks off, it won't last long.
GonzoD - agreed.
Libby's role in this affair was smaller than that of Chimp'n'Cheney'n'Rove (as many of the jurors in his trial had stated), but he still played a role sufficient to warrant jail time. Cheney should be doing decades at a nearby friendly neighborhood supermax.
And as for Gary - oh yee of little faith in the increasingly aware state of the American electorate. Just look at the polls, pick any of them in any combination. We're waking up.
I'm bored of Gary and K.O. Sucks.
Just bored I tell you.
Midland, that was great, now to figure out how to get that to print up...you don't mind if I use that do you, I mean i'll credit you of course, I'm not Ann Coulter for Pete's sake.
What's so great is that Gary couldn't sustain his pretense of just asking innocent questions for very long before the true wingnut popped out.
gary @ 85:
This has to be the most ridiculous comment I've ever read..the trolls are getting less and less intelligent.
Gary Anne Coulter called and needs a BJ. Can you help it out?
I think Bush says "anyone convicted of a crime would be dealt with", his verbage is kind of a subliminal misdirection. He never told you how he deals with criminals in his own corner. Praising him for the work he has done is a slap to the face of justice.
So let me get this straight...violate probation => 45 days in jail...publicly release the name of a CIA agent => 0 days in jail?!?...I'm guessing the Republicans are furious, just as they were with Clinton's 2000 pardons.
why are there people out there defending this? How can these same people talk about Clinton's tryst in the Oval Office as it being somehow worse? And how can these people continue to deny that Plame was covert and she was obviously outed? why do they twist facts to suit themselves? why is it that their party is more important than the country or the simple facts of this case?
My god. I'm so outraged at Bush but we know he is corrupt to the core. But why are there Americans out there triangulating and spinning their hatred for all things non-Republican?
It sickens me. I should thank Bush and company for having me to learn to hate my fellow citizens. Because I hate them, I really do -- Bush plainly told a man in his organization to shut up because he would make sure he didn't go to jail. And that's what happened. If Libby is so innocent, tell me why he was convicted, then tell me why Bush made sure he didn't serve any jail time? It defies logic -- are the supporters that naive?
when will they wake the hell up?
[...] leaving him with just the $250,000 fine and two years probation. While most on the left are justifiably outraged, and others feel it was the correct decision, I prefer to look at it this [...]
Dunbar, go to your state reps and bitch like hell, everyone here already has. This. Must. Stop.
K.O.Sucks @ 86:
It's funny to me how many people who used to support Bush now support Hillary. She's to the right of Bush, fer crap's sake. I have yet to meet a real person who honestly want her to take a shot at president. She compared herself and her husband to a fictional crime family! Come on, these people love to put it right in your face, so they can laugh when you ignore it or pretend it's not there. Sheesh.
The people aren't happy with the Dems because they got elected in with the promise of sweeping change. But they are instead doing their typical limp wristed act and just trying to wait out the storm until 08. Remember? They did the SAME THING in 06, knowing they'd get elected as long as they shut up and let the Reps dig their own hole. It's just asm much lose/lose now as it was then.
At this point, the party affiliation means little. Both are planning to continue the regime of power until there's nothing left to take from us, and then try to save their sorry hides right before the shit hits the flag. MEANING the American PEOPLE need to stop being so damn divided by ridiculous and ineffectual classification and start working as a whole to overthrown ALL complicit criminals, regardless of party affiliation.
gary @ 85:
ah, did anyone mention jihadists here? ONE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER.
What is wrong with people like you?
And it's good that you now realize Bush and Cheney are the true enemies of America. That's what happens when you spit on the Constitution.
[Quote edited]
"Heck, even congress has an approval rating in the 20's, so it doesn't seem the american people are happy with ANYONE right now... The table does appear to be set for a Democratic win in '08, but a few more attempted or successful acts of terrorism here or abroad may change that..."
Excuse me, KO sucks: on whose watch did 9-11 take place? Who was in office for the Madrid bombings? Or the London bombings?
The Republicans do not have a monopoly on National Security, and never have.
When the WTC was first attacked in the early 90s, what happened to the attackers? Oh that's right, they're ROTTING IN PRISON.
And BTW, where is Osama? And almost SIX YEARS after 9-11?
Any guesses on when Bush will give Libby the Presidental Medal of Freedom?
Oh come on Ronin, right wingers are scared shitless of Hillary, and I'M LOVING IT. If I can't Have Clark, and we're going to get hillary, I'm going to enjoy the likes of gary and KOSucks pissing themselves the Seamus on the roof of Mitt Rim-Me's station wagon.
gary @ 85:
Yeah. 'Cause everything is either all black or all white. Excuse me while I laugh my ass off at yer myopia.
BTW, do ya remember when we were payin' the jihadists in Afghanistan to fight the communists? Do ya remember when we were payin' Saddam to fight the jihadists in Iran?
Poo, funny how one word out of place can screw up a punchline.
PurplePatriot @ 12:
Not quite precedent. But there's this:
The expediency of vesting the power of pardoning in the President has, if I mistake not, been only contested in relation to the crime of treason. This, it has been urged, ought to have depended upon the assent of one, or both, of the branches of the legislative body. Federalist No. 74.
Sitemonitor, you deleted each and every gary entry. Why?
[Check comment 31-Sitemonitor]
Midland, that was great, now to figure out how to get that to print up…you don’t mind if I use that do you, I mean i’ll credit you of course, I’m not Ann Coulter for Pete’s sake.
Thanks for reading! I usually get in at the end of these discussions. I copy quotes to Word or even to Outlook, if they put up a fight.
Strawberry, OK, you guys win, Bush and Cheney are the evil ones who are the enemies of America and the Jihadists are our friends. Have it your way.
Yes, Bush and Cheney are the evil ones who are the most dangerous enemies America has right now. The jihadists--what do they have to do with this, anyhow? are a flea on a dog's butt by comparison. Bush's body count by this point is at least an orders of magnitude higher than Osama's: Osama has killed maybe 10,000 Americans, Iraqis, Afghan's, Kenyans, etc., Bush has caused the deaths of 100,000 plus Americans, Afghans, Iraqis, and others.
Mao Tse Tung, among others, always postulated that the first goals of terror should be gaining publicity for your cause and organization and goading the government into oppressing its own people in reaction to your campaign. Bush and Cheney could not be doing Osama's job for him better if he had a control chip embedded in their brainstems.
Hey pals, if yer able to listen to Malloy I'd suggest to tune him in now. He's startin' to go off on the horribly awful precedent Stupor Mundi set today.
gary @ 97:
That's what happens when you have private ownership of the media. You should be happy.
;)
tell me if I'm wrong but I believe at least 50 to 60% of the american people have no clue of who Scooter Libby is, how, just tell me how can you change a thing in this country if nobody gives a sh... about anything other than Paris or the garbage that E! channel shows every night???
Strawberry @ 93:
Are you serious? The people on the far left are proving to be as crazy as the people on the far right...
Why the hell would the left elect a president that the right has been building an attack file on for YEARS? Do you feel like revisiting the BCCI affair? Not to mention the ENORMOUS chip on Hillary's shoulder. Let's see, most likely her advisors have put it in her head that:
-She has to prove she's better than Bill
-All old arguments gainst Bill will find their way to being on her plate by association
-She has to not support the war, but keep it going
-She has to play it level, or be accused of 'catfighting' or 'being on the rag
-She is ALL READY powerhungry and ambitious, so expect the powers of the Executive to expand even more
-Not to mention all of this, plus more, is a subset of the intense pressure of being the first Female President
Those things might not matter to you and me, hell, they might not even matter to her. But based on the circles she runs in, they WILL become issues, foisted on us by talking heads who get their marching orders from the Good Ol Boys, and echoes by the likes of Gary and KO Sucks, while we pull out hair out and the inanity and NOTHING GETS DONE IN THE MEAN TIME.
No, I'd rather the GOP have to expend energy dreaming up new attacks while we get someone in there that isn't going to push the envelope on 'Who Wants To Be An American Dictator?' even more.
gary @ 100:
You said:
Deleted post by banned poster-Sitemonitor
You make the assumption that we have a limited choice of friends- Bushco or jihadists- and that I must choose one or the other. I reject that. I choose neither, because both are evil.
Take a fuckin' logic class at ITT Tech...Once ya get yer GED, that is.
[Quotes edited]
Gary:
Provide me with some examples of right wing talk shows that allow lefties to debate. And what does that have to do with the Libby issue, anyway?
Don Quijote:
1. Where do you get your figures?
2. Those who know about this issue, I would submit, are more likely to walk into a voting booth and vote.
[gary is on time out. If he DOES respond, he'll be sent back to the corner like the naughty thread-jacking flame-baiting little troll he is.-Sitemonitor]
That KO troll is out of his mind........ofcourse we knew libby was going to get off light....with a crooked admin like this one ...it was to be expected.
That doesn't make it it right though..he was tried and convicted...what is it with repugs and the law.They seem to think that it doesn't apply to them.Nixon and watergate,Reagun and Iran Contra,Now this yahoo and ALL of HIS Criminal Activites....
The trolls can say what they want,But history shows us that the repugs are in fact not worthy of sitting at the helm of this country...
Don Quijote @ 101:
It's cyclical. People might care if news channels reported on real news.
Hell, I'd love to see a MSM non-partisan political channel in the same format as Entertainment Tonight. Or, better idea... The Daily Show.
Bush is rich white trash who thinks he and his friends are above the law. They disgust me. Libby belongs behind bars, as do they all, including the Big Boss, Dirty Dick Cheney
say is ko sucks and gary the residue that bush had in his colon when the shoved that probe up his ass at walter reed?
Ronin, I agree with some of your assessments, but as I was just trying to play with you and you called me nuts...nice. You know a lack of a sense of humour is a right wing trait. How'd that feel?
good. republicans continue to shoot themselves in the foot. this will help us ensure democratic victory in 08. no respect for law, hypocrits to the core, immoral, greedy, crony, corrupt... bush/cheney and their lemmings will always be the basis for comparison about what this country does NOT stand for.
“We need a revolution every generation or so.” -Thomas Jefferson
"A little revolution, now and then, is a healthy thing. It is as natural as lightning."-Thomas Jefferson
oh yea, and...
Demme Fatale @ 64:
friggin hilarious!
People I want to hear the Left use the following words.... Self-serving act!!! That is what makes it insidious.
Come on. I am constantly disappointed by the Democrats they constantly make me feel that there is only one party the ruling party, by not hitting the obvious. They need to start hammering that statement and repeating it over and over again. Just like the Republicans do only that in this case it is true. Scooter Libby's commuted sentence was a self-serving act. It was totally in his power, but what makes it wrong is that it was self-serving. The commuted sentence served himself. It is like if he would be able to pardon himself.
Don Quijote @ 101:
I talked, about an hour ago, to a friend of mine who is decidedly out of the loop when it comes to politics.
Not only did she know who Libby is, she knew what a shitty thing this commutation is.
Strawberry @ 109:
LOL
First of all, I wasn't calling you crazy. Go back and read it. People on both sides are crazy. That's because at the end of the day, we're all just people. Sorry if you took it as a personal insult.
Also, I just read a right-winger telling everyone that left-wingers have no sense of humor, and that's why Bush gets railed on for attempting humor at press conferences. See what I mean? You can't make stereotypes about this stuff.
There Should Be An Ongoing Cover Up Case
Lend me this hypothetical: When the prosecutor started to get close to charging Scooter Libby, Bush and Chaney assured Libby, as long as he would not implicate any higher officials, he would not go to jail. End hypothetical. Is that possibility beyond those that would out a CIA agent for revenge?
At this point, the investigation should resume; there must be a rule-out a conspiracy is not in progress. Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald’s job is not over, and he needs to now assure the American people he will continue to investigate any and all possible criminal agreements related to Scooter Libby’s case. Yes, we are in the conspiracy phase of Libby’s crime, and it is unfolding right before our eyes. It does not get any clearer then this.
Commuting Libby will not be in the American media very long, for the media is too conservative. In fact, most right-wing media organizations will relegate this story to “the back of the bus” so it will be overlooked. This leaves the job of exposure up to the Blogger-sphere. It has to come from the internet, so oil your fingers because we have a job to do. First, we must air our outrage and insist Fitzgerald, in a “matter of fact” way, continue his investigation.
This administration is corrupt, as Joseph Wilson put it, from the ground up. The Republican congress is complicit in this administration’s corruption when they take an automatic supportive stance. All these factors will pay nice Democratic dividends in the next election. Our task is to keep these crimes before the American people, in spite attempts by Republicans to bury it. In short, keep the shit fresh.
Joseph
Extemely amused GOP @ 112:
Of course you fully realize that you live in the same DEMOCRATIC country the rest of us do, meaning you are not exempt from the repercussions of his actions.
But, you know, if laughing at your own destruction is what makes you happy...
[Quote edited]
Extremely Amused GOP:
Laugh all you want. I'm laughing at you laughing.
Because your boy Bush just handed 08 to the Dems on a silver platter.
Joke's on you.
Andy K @ 113:
AndyK, thank you, you just, you just saved my day. Thank you so much...
Uh Ronin, right wingers really don't have a sense of humour...Dennis Miller, case closed. But let's not fight in front of the children. Ha, ha. (I'd use one of those smily thingys but for some reason they give my laptop indigestion)
hey extremely amissed Repug.....don't forget your helmet when the short bus comes to take you in the mornin...........goofy repug
#113
I fully agree that, if the rule of law was still a respected practice in this country, this is what should and most likely would happen.
If you would be so kind as to lend me a hypothetical, an admittedly large one, so bear with me:
Perhaps the domestic wiretapping program has things on Fitzgerald that could subvert his ability to do his job to the best of his ability. That would allow those with information to nicely and quietly shape any and all investigations he is in charge of, correct?
Don Quijote @ 117:
De nada, pal! That's what we're here for, isn't it? Sharin' info as well as opinion?
:)
Strawberry @ 118:
The third truth is that both have a sense of humor vastly different from the other, allowing all three truths to be correct to varying degrees.
Again, I cannot support divisions between party lines. Classification is a tool used to subvert. I'm here to enlighten.
Ronin Tetsuro @ 115:
Can you believe how stupid that clown is............goofy repug...
Joseph @ 114:
Hypothetically, Joseph, Stupor Mundi can still pardon Scooter. This ain't over yet.
Fitzgerald's statement has no basis in law: Commutation isn ot a delegated power; the President only has the power to issue pardons and grant reprieves. These are three different things.
Arguably, Fitzgerald is confused:
Fitzgerald points to nothing in the Constitution about "commutation" -- it doesn't exist an any delegated authority to the President.
Here is a breakdown of the three definitions showing Fitzgerald cannot legally "recognize" authority which has no basis in law. Fitzgerald cannot legally "recognize" authority which was never delegated to the President. He was only delegated the authority to grant pardons and issue reprieves; "commutations" is a third creature, outside the delegation through the Constitution.
Fitzgerald needs to review the Constitution and provide an update in writing to Congress: Why is Fitzgerald confused on the law in re pardons and reprieves; and is this official DOJ policy to assent to non-delegated powers? This is likely how the FISA violations were justified: Some "big wig DoJ"-type said "we recognize the power of the President to. . ." and everyone went along with it.
I need your help: We need to send a strong message to Congress: They need to oppose this illegal assertion of power; or Members of Congress are complicit. A sitting President can be prosecuted outside impeachment, just as Members of Congress can.
I called the WH switchboard (202-456-1111) and got through to a polite but flustered sounding women who said try during regular business hours.
I just wrote the WH (comments@whitehouse.gov) with this:
Dear Whitehouse,
I hope every single person who reads this resigns in protest and out of shame for the actions George W. Bush. The commutation of I. "Scooter" Libby's prison sentence amounts to an obstruction of justice in an ongoing criminal investigation. The very people who might possibly be implicated in the crime of outing covert CIA agent Valerie Plame are also most certainly the ones breathing a sigh of relief over Bush's mockery of justice. The Whitehouse's premiere resident has cast a pall over the nation just before it is scheduled to celebrate the principals that motivated the founders to declare their independence from tyrants in the first place.
Clearly criminals reside in the executive branch and both the legislative branch and judiciary choose to do nothing. Please advise post haste as to what American citizens are to do under such blatant abuses of power.
To quote a document from July of '76 (1776) I hope Mr. Bush is familiar with,
"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good."
It actually goes on for a bit but I think the parts quoted pretty much cover it though for "the present King of Great Britain" I would substitute "the present resident of the Whitehouse."
I hope the document quoted is not considered to be too subversive as it has inspired our nation for well for over two centuries.
With deep respect for the Constitution of the United States of America (or at least what's left of it) and the Declaration of Independence that brought it about,
LanceThruster (actually, I used my real name)
~
mudshark @ 123:
Have ya ever seen a troll that isn't stupid? ;)
And this latest one isn't even as stupid as the last one. At least "Extremely" had the wisdom not to make a flawed argument.
Ronin....I was refering to that easily amused Repug not you.......I can see him already with a ball of string dangling in front of his face with that 1000 yard stare
I've read what Pelosi says about this and think "So what? You're not going to do anything about it"
nor is anyone in Washington
not are the Republicans who aren't hypocritical (and there aren't many left)
So what? So what?
We have another 1 1/2 years of this guy and I don't think we will survive
Our government has been taken over by a crime syndicate
and it's really mirroring how the Nazis took power in Germany
I think as a nation are pretty close to our knees being destroyed from within
What is all the fuss - politics as usual
"We have another 1 1/2 years of this guy and I don't think we will survive
Our government has been taken over by a crime syndicate
and it's really mirroring how the Nazis took power in Germany
I think as a nation are pretty close to our knees being destroyed from within"
Clytemnestra -
I understand your sentiment. I say that if our nation has to go down, then it should go down SWINGING.
Give the repubs in charge now ABSOLUTE HELL for what they've done.
And who knows? Maybe there's hope yet...
Jea Kmc @ 130:
"Politics as usual" brought us to this point now - that's why the fuss.
A sitting president should not be able to commute the sentence of an individual that might be able to implicate him or his administration in wrong doing. If congress does not do something about this, I swear I will have to march on Washington even if it is just me.
Anon @ 125:
Fitzgerald points to nothing in the Constitution about "commutation" -- it doesn't exist an any delegated authority to the President.
Here is a breakdown of the three definitions showing Fitzgerald cannot legally "recognize" authority which has no basis in law. Fitzgerald cannot legally "recognize" authority which was never delegated to the President. He was only delegated the authority to grant pardons and issue reprieves; "commutations" is a third creature, outside the delegation through the Constitution.
Fitzgerald needs to review the Constitution and provide an update in writing to Congress: Why is Fitzgerald confused on the law in re pardons and reprieves; and is this official DOJ policy to assent to non-delegated powers? This is likely how the FISA violations were justified: Some "big wig DoJ"-type said "we recognize the power of the President to. . ." and everyone went along with it.
I need your help: We need to send a strong message to Congress: They need to oppose this illegal assertion of power; or Members of Congress are complicit. A sitting President can be prosecuted outside impeachment, just as Members of Congress can.
Buried deep in the first Libby thread of the evenin' is a link that spells out how the Presidential power to commute a sentence is accepted law. Presidents have been commutin' Federal death sentences goin' back at least as far as the late 19th century. This ain't the first time a President has done this(I'm pretty sure that Judge Roy Bean had his sentences commuted a few times). Hell, it probably came too late to be the 100th time it's been done.
Perhaps the domestic wiretapping program has things on Fitzgerald that could subvert his ability to do his job to the best of his ability. That would allow those with information to nicely and quietly shape any and all investigations he is in charge of, correct?
Ronin Tetsuro Says:
Your scenario has merit and is, in theory, very possible. As I contemplated your hypothetical, I thought of the German war tactic of blitzkrieg -- A swift, sudden military offensive, usually by combined air and mobile land forces. The shear amount of rapid infractions committed by this administration has overwhelmed us all, and from day to day continues to defocus our attempts to real in this administration's actions. Scooter Libby's pre pardon act is no exception to this dynamic.
Joseph
I'm foaming at the mouth. Who voted for this administration? Every person that did should be brought up on charges for treason. This administration is so vile I can't stand to even think of the next few years.
Inspired by LanceThruster, a note to comments@whitehouse.
after a while because it is politics as usual, fussing about it solves nothing
[...] C&L Story & Video THE GOP ARE FINISHED AS A PARTY AND WE WILL PROVE IT! [...]
Andy K @ 134:
Buried deep in the first Libby thread of the evenin' is a link that spells out how the Presidential power to commute a sentence is accepted law. done.
Nope, not buying the POTUS assertion of non-delegated power: Presidents either Pardon or they Grand reprieves. They cannot do anything else.
"Commutation" is not an option. The caselaw is inapposite. Here's the difference between pardons [OK]; reprieves [OK]; and commutations [Not OK],
Let's not dissemble.
It's fascism time again.
My fingers hurt from typing.
Jea Kmc @ 138:
Fussing doesn't solve anything if fussing is all we do.
But action usually begins taking root in the form of fuss sessions such as this. Discuss, then ACT.
Are we up for it?
Andy K @ 134:
Bush isn't a governor anymore. He's a President. He was not delegated "commutation" power. Pardons, reprieves, and commutation are not the same.
Bush today asserted non delegated judicial power. Governors, not Presidents, can exercise commutation.
There is no caselaw with any "commutation"; onyl pardons and reprieves. Go find the caselaw: IT doesn't exist. This is unprecedented, and illegal.
Snowball @ 37:
yeah, you nailed it!
Lance Thruster @125-
I have posted that document at C&L at least 10 times ovwer the last coupla years...Here's my favorite part:
" But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Our duty. Damn straight!
Patrick Fitzgerald is just another GOP asshole. He could have indicted Cheney and Rove. But noooo.. he goes through this kabuki of throwing or threatening to throw reporters in prison because they won't reveal their sources. Once their sources are revealed... he comes up with only one person to indict, and not for violating the secrecy act. He knows damn well that it will be easily forgotten if Bush gives a free pass to one person. If Fitzgerald had indicted Cheney and Rove and if Bush pardoned Cheney, Rove and Libby (and Richard Armitage and Ari Fleischer and Colin Powell).. that would have been explosive.
Pussy
The time is right for Impeachment. Let the proceedings begin. Cheney, Bush and Gonzalas, all three simutaneously. Don’t forget, Libby can be subpeonaed to testify before Congress. If he lies before Congress he can still be charged again. It won’t be a get out of jail free if Bush and Cheney are under impeachment.
I have rewritten an updated version of our Declaration of Independence for 2007. Ihope you all will take a few minutes to read it and pass it on to friends and relatives.
http://myfightfordemocracy.blo…..-2007.html
zenguy @ 142:
A lot of people are ready to act, but because we are so brainwashed, each of us sits and waits for a leader to get behind.
Precisely why Pelosi got elected, and exactly why Congress's approval rate rests in the 20 percent range.
Short of organizing all the militias (yeah, right) into a cohesive fighting force than can withstand the Police Departments, who have become the American Internal Affairs Army, small protests and rabblerousers will find themselves barely alive on the floor of a holding pen in an 'abandoned' military base.
CD @ 1:
So lets look at this without the lens of politics. If during the course of a criminal investigation involving high level "important" people charges never get filed but I decide to lie to the grand jury in the course of that investigation nothing should happen to me and I don't have to worry. So now I should feel free to lie to grand juries and feds if I find myself in a similar situation. Why shouldn't I? O wait, I have nobody who will let me get out of jail free.
Andy K @ 145:
Exactly. Americans laying down on the job for so long is what got us in this mess in the first place.
Yes, your rights and freedoms are natural-born. But they aren't given. YOU have a job as part of the political apparatus, too. That is DISSENT and REVOLT, if deemed necessary. But you've been lied to for so long that you don't believe it. That's why they think it's coll to take your rights from you, to misrepresent you, get you in trouble, not protect you, enslave you.
The powers that be honestly think you don't mind if they do.
So. Are you gonna get mad, or are you gonna stay comfortable? That's the real decision we're looking at here. Someone else said it earlier. Apologists are right, we're going down either way. But goddammit, I'm gonna go down SWINGING.
Anon @ 140:
Nope, not buying the POTUS assertion of non-delegated power: Presidents either Pardon or they Grand reprieves. They cannot do anything else.
"Commutation" is not an option. The caselaw is inapposite. Here's the difference between pardons [OK]; reprieves [OK]; and commutations [Not OK],
That is the exact post, but appearin' earlier here at C&L, that I was respondin' to when I made the afforementioned link.
Somethin' to remember, Anon, is that not all of our law is strictly codified. There are concepts that derive from the common law, pre-datin' the existence of not only the Constitution but also the first English settlements in America. I suspect that the inclusion of "commutation" under the blanket of "pardon" dates to those earlier times.
Ronin Tetsuro @ 150:
My point, EXACTLY!
I certainly don't intend to lose what my parents/grandparents/greatgrandparents/etc. fought to preserve, in the military or otherwise.
Not without a fight.
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