Petraeus Says Iraq Will Be "Decades" Long; Likens Struggle To Northern Ireland
By Nicole Belle Sunday Jul 08, 2007 6:00pmWow, the White House is really struggling to find a parallel that lowers our expectations and puts them in a good light...unfortunately, a better grasp on history and political science might be helpful.
BBC (h/t C&L Commenter):
The head of US forces in Iraq, Lt Gen David Petraeus, has told the BBC that fighting the insurgency is a "long term endeavour" which could take decades.[..]
(H)e warned that US forces were engaged in a "tough fight" which will get "harder before it gets easier".
His comments come as US calls for a rapid troop withdrawal gather strength.
Gen Petraeus was keen to emphasise that the ongoing unrest in Iraq is not something he expects to be resolved overnight.
"Northern Ireland, I think, taught you that very well. My counterparts in your [British] forces really understand this kind of operation... It took a long time, decades," he said.
Here's the problem of using the Northern Ireland analogy: For how long did a band of less than a 1000 IRA militants keep peace at bay? The Troubles were in the late '60s, and that wasn't the beginning. We're not dealing with a few hundred insurgents in Iraq. Also note in the interview (the hyperlink in the above article), Petraeus keeps conflating the issue by talking about al Qaeda, which by all non-White House accounts, is not responsible for most of the violence.
The thing that I've never got a clear understanding (and for which I blame the media for not asking the right questions) is when is it that we know we've won? By definition, since we are occupying their country, anyone who fights against us is an insurgent. Do we know it's time to quit when there are no more insurgents (and what does that mean for Iraqi population)? Is it when there is no more sectarian strife? In the 5,000 year history of the region--aside from when under the thumb of dictators--has there ever been a time with no sectarian strife?
Login or Register to post comments.
september means forever in cavemanese
As you've noted Nicole one determination for winning according to their thinking is the complete annihilation of the Iraqi citizenry. But of course their preferred 'win' is when every drop of oil has been removed and placed into Exxon and BP's hands.
iraq is like vietnam, er, no, like korea, er, no, like ireland, er, no, like crete, uh, like japan, uh, like germany, troy ?? constantinople ?? the planet the gallacticans had to leave ?? no, no, just like tribbles and the enterprise, yeah, just like that
"The Troubles" started one hell of a lot longer ago than the '60s. Try about 400 years of strife. Plus, what ended the N. Ireland strife was the point at which the British stopped letting their knee jerk with every violent act of some fringe group and began to focus on diplomacy, insisting that violence was not going to stop the peace.
It stops when the side with all the power begins to realize that reacting to every single provocation makes them (us) easily manipulatable by a very small group of angry people and that finally admitting that we can do nothing about them militarily (i.e. "growing up") is when we're going to finally acknowledge that this mess is of our making by going in there in the first place and that our leaving is the only way the endgame can finally happen (messy as that will be).
Olympia Snowe (Washington) just broke with Bush and said she wants legislation to begin the withdrawal of troops.
I also read in the Washington Post that some Republican Senators are concerned that Bush is trying to drag this thing out until April of 2008 where he will actually start blaming the military for the failures in Iraq. I would like to say that idea is insane, but I don't put anything past the Bush administration at this point.
I think it's past time we started pointing out the similarities between Hitler and his final days in the bunker and Bush in his final years in the White House. Bush is not Hitler, but both of these guys have some psychological issues when it comes to accepting the facts that are based on reality.
Your points are well taken. It will be surprising if the U.S. government will ever admit that it cannot "win" in Iraq since the Iraqis, like their Vietnamese counterparts, will fight until their dying breath until the less than benevolent presence of the United States military have finally left their soil. But as others have pointed out, it is doubtful if the U.S., with the military bases that they have in Iraq, have any intention of leaving that country.
"For how long did a band of less than a 1000 IRA militants keep peace at bay?"
Well they were just one side in a mutli sided conflict, but I think I get what your saying.
If the Northern Ireland analogy is followed the US govt will be negotiating with Al Qaeda before long, and rushing to get out of the place.
These are the signs I put up yesterday:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.com/2007/07/these-are-signs-i-put-up-toda...
12 billion a month for this fisasco. It is going to be hard to sustain that.
there was NEVER an exit strategy because they never intended to leave.
Sorry, Olympia Snowe is from Maine.
the endless war for endless peace continues. But history has shown us that you just can't bring peace to people by waging war on their cities and towns.....the resistance will continue.
Maybe that's just what they want?
The time to end this madness is now. Not in 10 years or next year. Today....not tomorrow. now.
Some follow up reading:
"Top-Ten Reasons to Get out of Iraq Now"
http://www.populistamerica.com/top_ten_reasons_to_get_out_of_iraq_now
Northern Ireland?!!!
So he sees a group loyal to the US Govt fighting off a group (and vice versa) wishing to secede and join with a neighbor state with similar religious conviction and antithetical views to US occupational rule? That neighbor state being Iran?
Now think about it, General...Yeah. Let's get out now. No reason to stay. 'Cept for the oil, right John Howard?
Silly Nicole! We've won when democracy is flourishing!!
Mister Anderson @ 5:
I'll believe Snowe when she actually votes for withdrawal. I watched Charlie Gibson tonight. HoJo's best friend was on(soon to be ex-Senator Susan Collins). She was kinda saying the same thing as Snowe. Actions speak louder than words, Susan.
If Iraq is N. Ireland, which side are we supposed to be?
General Betrayus is just one more traitor to the uniform, the flag and the Constitution who should be at the end of a rope.
Like Northern Ireland? How about more like hell and we created it.
now now,, everyone knows that the insurgency is in its last throes!
also i was reading that iraq/ afganastian wars are costing 12 billion a month.
If the white house were smart, and smart being the operative word here, that 12 billion could be used for alternate forms of energy right?
But then the big oil folks and thier lap dog lobbiyst would be out of a job.
And these are the signs I've put up since noon.
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.com/2007/07/these-are-signs-i-put-up-sinc...
Question from bush:
Pandora, how do we close your box now that we have opened it? We don't like what we have released.
What if the President asked everyone to enlist? What if he went on the air and said:
"I don't want to have a draft, but we don't have enough troops. We need 500,000 more troops NOW to win this thing. I won't let my successor take on this burden and they way they are talking, they will leave. In my mind leaving is losing. So I'm asking every able bodied man and woman to enlist in the armed forces. If you are between 17 and 42 you can enlist in the army. And I'm going to ask the military contractors to leave Blackwater and related firms and re-enlist in the armed forces."
See last thread.
So.. bring back the troops and suit up Bush, Dick and Tony Snow. Scooter can drive the humvie and Fred Fielding can file briefs with the "Iraqi President". It would be like a updated version of "F-Troop".
Film it.. America needs a good TV comedy these days.
It's a win-win!!
Bushes Empire Burlesque of Terror
Call it EFF'd TROOP!
Quite interesting after reading some history on the 3rd Reich how many of the top generals in Germany went along with the Fuhrer, not because they were ideologues, but because they thought it would be good for their careers. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Chimpy gets us in this $12 BILLION a month clusterfuck...and come January, 2009 gets to jet back to Crawford....with not a care in the world.
I pray there actually is karma...because Chimpy is about to get his in spades!
enaud @ 9:
No problem, this only has to go on long enough for Dick Cheney to become a billionaire?
The run up in Halliburton stock, and his Oil futures, based on 100 bucks a barrel by early spring of 2008 should accomplish that around Dec of that year.
L.A. Confidential @ 22:
Not a fucking chance in hell.
"which could take decades.[..]" is your assertion, not his
Blue, sorry to sink your boat. Patreaus took this gig knowing it would end his career. He was one of the more respected generals and was blown off in the early stages of the war. He knew this was a hail mary pass that stood no chance of 'winning', waaaaaay too late. Please read wikipedia's bio on him. He was our last, great hope. AND having him out there being truthful about the true costs of the war and it's length probably pisses Bush off.
I wonder what Iraq Veterans have to say...
http://www.ivaw.org/faq
http://www.ivaw.org/bustourblog
http://www.ivaw.org/bustourphotos
and... Where did Cheney visit recently..
..with another Desperate one to defend this illegal occupation... Kagan
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/09/kagan-escalation-success/
This war is just a bust all the way around. We have to get out of there. The neoCons need a ground war to claim the war powers and they are determined to get control of Iraq so they can take the oil.
The Truth Hurts @ 30:
I'll tell you what my neoCon brother said, "They'll take MY daughters over my dead body." See, these people think it's okay for other people to make sacrifices for the war they support, but they aren't going to sacrifice anything.
al-Blarney!
That analogy is WAY too big of a stretch for the unwashed masses in Wingnut Limbaugh/O'Reilly-ville...
Better compare it to "Dukes of Hazzard" where the bad Sherrif (like Sadaam) kept getting tricked by the clever boys in the Muscle Car...Bush is like the Mechanic that keep that car running...
Something like that, it's not important that it's a bad analogy, the idea is to change the subject to something else?
Keep it real simple and real stupid for the 28%'ers....
Just the same as EXCEPT that Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain in the first place... Ruled under British law. Whereas Iraq was on the opposite side of the planet and the United States had no business interfering with their sovereignty.
But, other than that, they are just the same...
EXCEPT...
Ad nauseam...
The Truth Hurts @ 30:
I was joking. Which doesn't help either.
I wonder what a Reservist Fighting His Fifth War Call-Up has to say...
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/24485
How much are you and I and our families giving to all of the neocons corporations that Bush and Cheney put in place, while they ruin our country, drain our treasury and our children's future..
1-2 billion a month... No - $12 Billion a Month.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/24484
Michael Moore is currently tearing Wolfe Blitzer a new one over the war and CNN's general misinformation...I hope that clip gets posted.
The IRA received millions in donations from US citizens under the guise of Noraid, which of course was a front for the Provisional Irish Republican Army (a terrorist organization).
Time to start locking up these Dead-enders, these betrayers of everything a human being aspires to be.
Smiths Go to Washington, I agree with everything you posted, Trust me...but it's the American people that voted Bush into power and then allowed themselves to be bamboozled into the Iraq War. Hell, I KNEW THERE WERE NO WMD's and I'm a friggin' housewife. WE SENT THOSE kids to Iraq because we were too concerned with Paris Hilton and girls gone wild. But people have died, a lot of people, and our guys are still there. But don't blame them, blame the American people.
michael @ 10:
I could not have said it better my self.
I still don't understand why Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, and Rove are not charged with war crimes. It's the very same thing as if someone screamed "fire!" in a movie theathre and people died trying to get out of the theathre.
Betray-US is just a mouthpiece for this criminal occupation. Fuck him and the camel he rode in on.
These are amateurs, Donnie.
For these impotent, money hungry, power drunk bastards, an endless war is better than an endless orgasm.
He looks real manly in that helmet.
That's what counts.
Right?
It's a little late in the game to be giving realistic assessments about the duration. It would be like waiting an hour to tell your overweight gym buddy that the fun run you made him enter is actually a marathon.
Jo, seriously, chill, dude. You're offending a lot of liberal democrats in uniform. I'm trying like hell to get them to read C&L and when you say stuff like that it just sends them back the other way. Christ, I'm working here...do some research on Patreaus before you talk smack about him. He would have never gone into Iraq. He was in Vietnam and saw what a mess that was.
We're talking about unchecked aggression here.
For all of the Troubles, I don't believe that there was ever a point in the past fifty years of Northern Ireland's history where an equivalent number of people was being killed every day for months on end.
Something over three thousand people have died as a result of the Northern Ireland conflict since the late 1960s out of a population that is now about 1.7 million. Extrapolated to Iraq's population of 25 million, that's about 50,000 deaths. Except in Iraq it didn't take 40 years to get to something far beyond 50,000.
Strawberry, Petraus did go into Iraq.
So far as I can tell, he didn't serve in Vietnam, either. He graduated from high school in 1970 and the US Military Academy in 1974. The last combat troops left Vietnam in March of 1973. So how could he have served in Vietnam?
[...] House Link to Article iraq Petraeus Says Iraq Will Be “Decades” Long; Likens Struggle To Northern [...]
PoopY, taking kids to TaeKwonDo, darrelplant, he was in charge of Mosol when my husband was there. It used to be incredible safe, til he rotated out. Check wikipedia again, read his bio. sorry gotta bail for now, I'd love to debate ya' .
Well, let's see. The helpful British policing of Northern Ireland has led to the IRA following them home with numerous bombings of London. So is Petraeus saying that _because_ we are in Iraq that will lead to them following us home and bombing our cities? That would be part of a full analogy.
I don't see any connection to Vietnam,
Walter.
Here's the problem with the Northern Ireland analogy:
This country won't put up with it. I won't put up with it, you won't, and dare I say, the Dems won't.
Happy to be proved right, but I think we will tell this President to go &$#@ himself before '08
Yeah well, that's just, ya know,
like, your opinion, man.
They keep telling us Petraeus is a brilliant strategist. He may be. But that doesn't necessarily imply intelligence (Alexander the Macedonian was known to be a brute). Every time I read what he has said about the war I wonder how the hell he got three stars. I guess intelligence is not a prerequisite. Decades? Does he realize that he is talking about war of attrition, in which there are no winners. At what cost to human lives and tax payer money? Tens of thousands of dead soldiers? Millions of civilian deaths? Trillions of dollars? By then the US will be broke, and there will be few left in Iraq. China will not, and cannot, finance that high a cost, no one can. Americans will not support a war of attrition. He is nuts.
Well, there isn't a literal connection, Dude.
Have it your way. The point is--
Another problem with the N. Ireland analogy is that much of the violence blamed on the IRA was actually being carried out by British agents and blamed on the IRA. On the other hand, that is a good analogy with Iraq after all.
I read his official Army bio.
"General Petraeus was commissioned in the Infantry upon graduation from the United States Military Academy in 1974."
Too late for Vietnam. Apparently you were mistaken when you said "He was in Vietnam and saw what a mess that was."
I wonder what else you were wrong about.
Benchmarks the Iraqi Government Have Met to Date = 0
Strawberry, Isnt it sad.
I blame these liars:
http://www.whitehouse.gov
and the neocon Think Tanks:
and the necon media:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newswar/
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html
http://www.progressiveliving.org/mass_media_and_politics.htm
and from the Karl Rove 2002 plan that gave us...
53 U.S. Republican Senators voted to Coverup War Contractor Fraud and War Profiteering
212 Republican House Representatives voted to Coverup War Contractor Fraud and War Profiteering
I give a donation every week to a marines fund for a local county marine group. And my wife and I have supported Iraq Veterans http://www.ivaw.org/faq
I never said I blame the troops.
You know the old joke: Why did the Arabs get the oil and the Irish get the potatoes? Because the Irish had first pick.
Well, look where having oil has gotten the Middle East.
And you know what?...................
The very men, the criminal slime balls who started it all, will be able to just walk away from it come January 2009. They will walk away with a nice tidy little yearly pension that would take an average Joe three years or more to match.
Interesting. Why did the prick right an editorial a couple of days before the 2004 election saying in effect that things were turning around in Iraq thereby attempting to ensure Bush's re-election. He's a spinning liar who SUCKS.
I won't bore you with a history lesson, but Northern Ireland is the culmination of centuries of strife. So if he wants that parallel he can have it, but it means you'll still be in Iraq by 2307.
Nothern Ireland My rear! The Irish have been trying to gain independance from Great Briton for more than 100 years. So far they only gained Half their Island Country.
Betray-us said decades long, nothing new there, I think Cheney said 50 years. Plus Bush wants to send our border patrol agents to Iraq to police their borders. Might as well,,, we aren't using them here to patrol our borders.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0519borderpatrol...
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/25/border-patriol-to-iraq/
http://www.democrats.org/a/2007/05/border_patrol_a.php
The Chinaman is not the issue!
I got news for Patreaus. The Brits NEVER defeated the IRA. Only when all sides concerned (England, The Irish Republic, The Catholics of the North of Ireland and the Protestants of the North of Ireland) finally came to the realization that NEGOTIATION was the only TRUE way to peace, did the violence in the North of Ireland subside.
That will be the same in Iraq. There is NOTHING we can do to make the Shia and Sunni (and the Kurds, for that matter) get along until they WANT to get along. Until THEY decide they want to live in peace, until THEY decide they want a democracy, no matter how many troops we send to Iraq we will NOT stop the violence (just like in the North of Ireland, the Brits tried to eliminate the IRA and all they achieved was to have the IRA bring the "fight" to London). So we can send another 100,000 troops and we can't bring peace and order to Iraq until the Iraqis themselves want it. Maybe if we start bringing our troops home and the Iraqis are TRULY FACED the possibility of total civil war and chaos, then maybe they will get to the solution themselves. But even if they don't, we will NEVER be able to impose it on them. No matter what Bush, Cheney or Patreaus say.
The Northern Ireland analogy is just silly. If you accept it, you accept the Bush propaganda on both Ireland and Iraq. The Bush people want us to see both conflicts as sectarian. Neither one is. Most Iraqi guerrillas are fighting the US because they are nationalists, no matter what their religious viewpoint.
If you see the war in Northern Ireland as sectarian, you have swallowed the British lie. One of the big reasons the British decided to negotiate was that the IRA set off a huge fertilizer bomb in the middle of London's financial district. That should be a clear message to all of us about what may come from the Iraq war.
By the way, terror is a tactic not an enemy. A terrorist is just a person with a bomb who doesn't have an airplane.
Great posts by Irish Kevin and bh.
Couldnt agree with you both more!!
Friar Tuck @ 19:
We could burn 100$ bills instead of oil for that price.
It's been more than four years and Iraq keeps getting worse. First, make sure Moqtada al Sadr has a fatal accident, then withdraw to the Iranian and Syrian borders and let the Iraqis sort it out themselves. The government we've been propping up has been a joke.
I'm sick of generals. I don't vote for "generals". I want to hear specifics from President Bush. No more junior lackys covering Bush's political rearend.
I have a question: if a country (England) invades another country (Ireland), why are the people of the invaded country, who are defending their country from the invaders, called terrorists?
The Irish were not allowed to speak their language, practice their religion, their lands were taken away (the Ulster Plantation) etc., but when they rose up, they were called terrorists.
Why?
Response to # 11. Yeah but SHOULDN'T Olympia Snowe be from Washington?
The last phase of the "troubles" in Northern Ireland lasted 30 years and ended with Sinn Fein - the political wing of the IRA- in power as part of the government of NI. So by that standard we can expect the conflict in Iraq to last until 2033 and end with the Insurgents in government in Iraq. Well that sounds worthwhile!
Just a clarification to this post and a couple comments. The Troubles began in the late 60's (the Troubles being a distinct phase in the Irish struggle for independence - the term doesn't include the conflict that had raged for almost 700 years prior) - I want to say 1968 is the most generally agreed upon year but I'm not sure - and is considered by most to have ended with the Good Friday Agreements in 1998. Just the background there.
It's an interesting comparison, mostly because it ultimately damns our role in Iraq (as the "imperialist power") to failure. The British policy of internment (imprisonment of suspected IRA members without trial or proof, resulting in an environment in which almost all Catholic males of a certain age could expect to be jailed for a few days) is now seen, in hindsight, as a disatrous policy that radicalized the Catholics, ultimately creating more violence. We can probably expect this sort of thing from prisoners in Guantanamo. And we can be sure that they, like the IRA, will not give up until they succeed.
General BetrayUs: "It's like Northern Ireland!....except we invaded a sovereign country based on lies, and they didn't....and it's about oil and Northern Ireland isn't...except ....oh, wtf...I'M LYING TO YOU AGAIN, AND I THINK YOU'RE STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Northern Ireland??? What the hell are these idiots thinking now. No comparision. Guess they just looked for a war that took decades and just said,,,,"Oh, yea,,,like that one,,right sir??" "Yes Sir. General" Like that one,,,,what was that war called again general???", OHH,,,these Brits and Irish guys,,,,yea thats what we'll compare Iraq to now." "Print it!!"
Well, if he means it, he means that everything the Brits did was wrong, that all the intelligence failed, that not even 1,000 armed men could bring the war to Washington with ease, that it will last at least 30 years ("modern Troubles" 1968-1998) and that only Bill Clinton can solve the problem.
Good to see these morons have realised exactly where they are.
Stuff it Petreaus.
*
scarlet p. @ 8:
OMG - are you really the freewayblogger? I've been following you for years. I've told everyone I know about your site - numerous times.
WWII - South Korea - now Ireland. They just can't find one that fits can they?
*
You know we are in trouble when the top General makes parallels to a conflict he knows nothing about.
If he wants a parallel go with the Soviet-Afhan war. And what was the eventual outcome of that struggle? Actually, we had a little role in that particular event as I recall.
Such nonsense. I lived in N. Ireland in the late '80s and early '90s-not that makes me an expert. But one thing civil authorities did not do quite as much as the US does is keep throwing gasoline on a fire. British forces in republican parts of Belfast certainly did that some, and I was a kid and didn't fully understand it...but I do a lot more now. And even the most extremist Loyalists did not, when they had gained some tactical advantage, go and stomp on graves, near as much as our policies continue to do in Iraq. Yeah, sometimes, that happened in Belfast, but even Loyalists knew blowback would be a bitch.....and even there, in just over 30 years, approximately 3500 died as a result of "The Troubles". That happened for the Iraqis within the first couple months. Geez, such B.S.
could he be sending a signal, perhaps deliberately trying to discredit the war by continually using these unappetizing analogies?
Wow. The British have been try to kick Ireland's arse for CENTURIES.
What they should be comparing it to is the "opening" of the American west. The Boss wants the land or what's under it, so drive off or killl the natives. Even lovable old Bill was part of that action. That's why Rummy shrugged off the disorder-- it was just what he wanted. 200 years ago, he'd have been shipping out blankets infested with small pox.
It's sad when people with no sense of history keep trying to deal out daily historical analogies to justify their arrogance, ignorance and imperialism.
Hey, we get it. YOU dont!
Petraeus' estimations about Iraq were printed up for him one day after he was ok'd to be the HMFIC in Iraq. He's just a bush megaphone, like all the other right-wingers.
anationonceagain @ 80:
I guess it depends on your point of view.... We Irish of course called them partriots and freedom fighters, while as you said, the Brits called them rebels and terrorists..... Just like the U.S. calls it an insurgency, while a lots of Iraqis view it as trying to "kick out" foreign invaders.....
Thanks for your hard work Nicolle. I can sum it up much more quickly: It's a load os B.S.
Decades long? That's about the time it wiill take to suck every last drop of oil out of the ground in these peak oil times. Once it's gone, they'll be only too happy to declare mission accomplished and leave.
These fuckers are trying to turn Iraq into a colony of Imperial Amerika. The people of the Sovereign Nation of Iraq need to order these parasites out of their country. The order needs to include the expulsion of the entire American Embassy.
People on the main land in the u.k has never wanted to hold onto N.I. It's the method used to achieve this.
If americans believe blowing up a church during a service on remembrance sunday for something that happened 400 yrs ago is acceptable ,then that's worrying.
This has been voted on,until a majority wants to join ireland it will remain british,we have to live with that it was part of the good friday agreement which the irish and terrorists agreed on.
The republic don't want to know either .Northern ireland is a finiancial drain.
There are parallells with iraq. As with the civil rights movements in the u.s ,the catholic's were protesting for more social rights and they had every right to do
that.
Like blacks in the u.s they were second class citizens.Many protested and they came under attack. First huge mistake ,the army was sent in to protect them with no real exit strategy.(sounds familiar}
Quickly it became an occupation. It is at this stage that most lesson's should be learnt .
Internment without trial caused huge problem's . Trying to be vague in the definition of torture. Assuming everyone is a terrorist. Shooting civilians and just saying whoops doesn't help,putting too many conditions on dialogue wasted years.
Irish american funding of the i.r.a has been a big deal in the u.k.'shoulder to shoulder '
thing.However you reap what you sow. Guess who invented the road side bomb? You all must know terrorists share idea's.Sinn fein were helping farc in columbia.
The 'troubles' was a dirty dark war with atriocities on all sides.
What changed? Well the people,from the ground up had had enough. Funding decreased from america after 9/11,and peter king stopped being friends with the i.r.a,but did throw a 50th birthday party for gerry adams.
Politic's have to be seen to be working-not the bullet and ballot.Achieve an united Ireland through peaceful means .
You have to deal with the hardliners they bring peace,moderates bring war.
That is why tony blair is going to the middle east,although tarnished with iraq,he does deserve credit for northern ireland. Pain-staking diplomacy.
Finally,as the u.s has now seen what blast injuries look like,there are plenty of these injuries on show in n.i. Post traumatic stress from images no-one should see, never mind a 19 year old, are haunting american troops. Northern ireland has one of the highest suicide rate and mental illness.
They did terrible things to each other and some are being tormented by this for rest of their lives. Families unable to bury their love ones due to the fact that there is nothing left of them .'The disappeared' google jean mcgonville to see the ripple effect .Nobody won it required a political solution, not a military.
It was never worth one life,never mind blowing childrens heads off and somebody else picking it up.
Loyalists/republicans/british have all addressed this and there was some remorse.Not enough, There is a case for trying what south africa did with the peace and reconcilliation council,including the state owning up.It won't happen.
These freedom fighters are now grandads in their 50's urging others to learn from their mistakes.I am irish and had family members hurt in the dublin/monaghan bombings in the 70's.
Ian pailsley and martin mcguiness having a cup of tea was something i thought i would never see,i thought i was watching the stepford wives.
Don't just dismiss it in relation to iraq,maybe start with ,how to win hearts and minds that would be the beginning of getting your troops out.
"Nothern Ireland My rear! The Irish have been trying to gain independance from Great Briton for more than 100 years. "
Well, hey. Give it time. Aren't there apologists who say Iraq will take decades and we should just be patient?
His military analysis and historical analogies are both correct AND THAT IS WHY WE MUST EXIT IRAQ. This is not what the nation has ever bought into and will never buy into. Let them go after each other. Just bring our troops home. The WH, NSA and DoD have failed them by putting them into an impossible situation.
Petraeus has his historical analogies out of whack. Ireland is a short distance from England. Many of the attacks were right on England's shore. Iraq is thousands of miles from the US.
Ireland has a history of having their religion taken away from them. There was at one time a Celtic church that became overshadowed by the Roman Catholics. Their patron St Columba of Iona was replaced with St Patrick. I'm not sure where St Aidan of Lindisfarne fits into all this, but methinks as Columba's Plato.
The Scots got it worse after the Jacobite revolt. They weren't just beaten when heard speaking their own language, they were killed. They were also killed for playing bagpipes.
Maybe the limeys were music lovers.
smchris @ 100:
Actually there was an attempt in the 19th century. This Irish group called themselves the Finnians, after Finn McCoul and his roving band the Finnians.
No they weren't like Paul Revere and the Raiders.
His name always makes me think of Cool McCool.
ysbadden. They were called the "fenians" not the finnians. It should be noted that a recent inquiry carried out by a British police officer- the "Stevens Inquiry" found that British Intelligence largely ran the Loyalist terror gangs. Inciting sectarian civil war is an old imperialist tactic - "divide and conquer". Iraq never in its history had a civil war between Shia and Sunni. Then Negroponte pops over and all hell breaks loose. Does anybody remember those two British SAS driving around in Arab garb with rockets and bombs. They were caught by the police in Basra. Many Iraqis believe the the US is behind the sectarian attacks - including the shrine bombings. I believe this is plausible.
I'm not at home to consult my books for the spellings, and perhaps some books spell them differently.
I ran into that the other day with the Sumerian Flood hero Atarkhasis v Atrahasis. There's also the Egyptian Imhotep v Amtep.
How could I forget Lady Charlotte Guest's Yspaddaden v Jeffrey Gant's Ysbaddaden?
Gantz's
Ysbadden, I don't mean to quibble but it was "the Fenians" and they were named after "Na Fianna" not Fion McCool - altough Fion Mc Cool was a member of Na Fianna. The proper name for the Fenians was the Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB). They were founded in 1858. The IRB played a role in the uprising of 1916 and the led by Michael Collins in the War of Independence 1918-1922. To this day "Fenian" is used as a derogatory term for Irish Catholics in many parts of the world.
Funny thing is I also seen it spelled Fionn mac Cumhail and the Feana.
However, ny source for the connection was a documentary who's title I can no longer remember, so I can't check the sourcing.
However, I understand the Irish are fond of double meanings. When Irish emigrated to America during the Potato Famine some would they would say they were "going into the west," which was America's direction and where traditional islands of death were supposedly located, such as Tir Inna m Beo, Tir Inna m Ban, and Tir na nog.
Irish would crown around the harbors of departing ships dressed in mourning.
Sorry, I meant to type Fianna.
GHOST OF ARAFAT
.
(Note: this post was written in January 05. Events, opinions and policies have now caught up with this year old post.)
Iraq is now a civil war. We have simply chosen a side. References to Vietnam are tactically correct, but passe politically. The analogies are Israel/Palestine, American Revolution and Northern Ireland.
The ghost of Arafat will appear from the Sunni side and George B. to his enormous bile-choking displeasure will have to deal. Were that it were otherwise but this is written.
Fielding one per cent of the Sunni fighting-age men as active insurgents/freedom fighters with three percent as cadre (40,000) creates a stalemate. They can not dislodge us and our Shia forces nor can we pacify them.
Personally I would find this leader (or group) now and begin the next phase. Offer them administrative control of electric and water reconstruction projects. They create no-kill, no-maim zones, implement the projects, Halliburton yes, Halliburton no, who cares, and we release the money on a quasi 'completion' basis.
This gambit lacks all pride and ego but we do get to stay a while.
Sarge might say "Light em if you got em," for a change.
(created by cognitorex / CAJ 1.11.05)
Hooray for General David Betrayus!
Hooray for General David Betrayus!
Decades???
Let's see; the Protestants in NI celebrate the Battle of the Boyne from 1689, if I remember correctly. That would be fairly close to 300 years ago.
Decades?? Try centuries, General.
The Lt Gen says what Bush tells him to say. He has a career to protect.
This general betraus thing is really annoying. The man is a fine general placed in an impossible situation. What is he supposed to do, ignore his boss and surrender?
if you want to blame someone for this war howse about not going after the guy candid enough to tell you how things really stand, and instead blaming the men who told you this thing would be a cake walk?
Not everything has to be exact to get a feeling and problems of a certain situation.There doesn't have to be lepraucauns in iraq.
Michael Collins signed away the north to the british with the formation of the free state(Did leave a claim to it}.
The six counties in the north were protestant and british for 400yrs(longer then the u.s has existed).
The minority of catholic's were treated as second classed citizens with few rights and terrible social conditions.
The catholic's like the blacks in the u.s south started to protest,as with your blacks the catholic's were attacked and burned out of houses by the protestant community,who were just less scarey then your klu klux khlan.
This bit is importatant.P.M James Callaghan sent british troops in to protect the catholic community from the protestants including law inforcements.
Up until then there was no armed british army patrolling the province.Funnily enough they were treated like liberators,women were making them cup's of tea,stealing kisses.
An army is not trained to be peacekeeping force,and then the problems started.
That is why we in the u.k could predict events in iraq-from when armed troops are maintaining law and order.
We were waiting for Haditha,abu-graib,hunger strikes,how far people will go for their identity,shoot to kill,informers,collusions,undercover,cover-ups,always negoiating with terrorists,huge weapons don't always win.
The U.K army was trying to help the u.s with guerilla warfare in iraq,but the u.s felt their military might would be enough,when you are up against an enemy that knows ever grain of sand?
Your troops will be in iraq for at least 30 years because you have not learned a thing if you don't believe there are parallells in these two situations.
It does amuse us in the u.k when american's are annoyed at Iran for helping their kin with money and weapons. What hippocrites,americans were able to get surface to air missiles to the i.r.a,you know the ones bringing u.s helicopters down.
Remote control bombing via mobile phones was practiced against u.k troops before iraq .
The U.K didn't want to be shoulder to shoulder with the U.S when they ignored the plea's to stop fund raising for 'the cause'.What did you think of 'the cause' on 9/11. An american life more precious then a british. It was only then the i.r.a went on the terrorist list.
Look at what brought two communities who have been killing eachother for years together in area's,schools even government.Self rule by the people of northern Ireland,a united ireland is possible by peaceful methods-through democracy when that happens the u.k will not stand in the way,actually they would be delighted.And getting armed troops off the streets.
I am frustrated with americans for there lack of insight of world events,and maybe just maybe they could learn from somebody elses failures instead of assuming you know it all because you are number 1,aren't you?
Yes, yes. They're all good men with greast careers to protect. Is it any wonder human consciousness has failed? Freakin' automatons.
There's no exact parallel to Iraq, unsurprisingly. But a much closer one than Northern Ireland is Yugoslavia. After 16 years Bosnia, part of the former Yugoslavia, is relatively stable. But has Yugoslavia been restored? That's the model for what we can look forward to--regardless of what we do in Iraq. But Bush promises that at some point in the future, Iraq will be stable. Look at Yugoslavia.
More detail: "Kurdistan", de facto, not de jure, is already independent. They do their own oil deals--without regard to the Maliki government----and by the end of the year are likely to also control the Kirkuk region--with its oil. They are likely smart enough to not insist on official independence, lest Turkey, in particular, step in. And "Kurdistan" is the US fall-back position. It's only a question of time.
Further, the southern oil-rich Shia area of Iraq sees this and wants something similar--though not with the US.
The Sunnis in "their area"--with very little oil-- observe this. What they'll do is anybody's guess. But it probably will involve bloodshed.
And of course Baghdad itself is mixed--though "ethnic cleansing--in this case "sectarian cleansing"--is drastically changing neighborhoods.
Iraq was an artificial state from the start, put together by the British. Back in the 20's Churchill was already describing governing it as "living on top of an angry volcano".
The Bush regime's ignorance of history is staggering--and tragic. And we're all paying the price.
It's hard to believe any thinking individual ever supported Bush. I haven't met one who still does.
The only thing his regime has ever done well is propaganda--but they're masters of that. And if you have a country uneasy, afraid, and looking for scapegoats, all you have to do is tell them who to hate and fear.
That's exactly what they did--worked like a charm.
Actually I think Churchill said "ungrateful volcano".
Login or Register to post comments.