Memo to Senate Dems: Make The Republicans Filibuster
By Nicole Belle Sunday Jul 15, 2007 11:02amIn an interview with the Young Turks on Friday, Senator Kent Conrad indicated that there was "growing consensus" in the Democratic Senate caucus to actually make Republicans stand in the well of the Senate and filibuster popular Democratic legislation.
Good. This is would be a welcome step and tactical change. No more simply allowing Republicans to defeat Democratic legislation just by holding a cloture vote. It is time to actually make Republicans carry out the filibusters they threaten when they vote "no" on cloture. If they want to use the threat of unlimited debate on issues like raising the minimum wage and providing mandatory time at home between deployments to Iraq for American troops, let's actually make them engage in unlimited, or at least nearly unlimited, debate on those subjects and see what the American people think.Politically, there is no way we can lose by employing this tactic.
UPDATE: Even more bloggers are weighing in...let's get a tidal surge going...
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:)
Frist?
Good. They should force them to be on the record.
No shit, Sherlock!
Sorry..
Hear Hear!
Maybe the issue here is that few of them still understand that power's actually shifted. Republicans were in charge for so long, the whole city, the whole structure of the place was geared for them, and they got settled in and comfy. These suddenly something happened in the World Outside and they don't see as many friendly faces as they used to, but it's business as usual, right?
Yeah, it's an assertiveness problem on the part of the Democrats, I think. How's Reid's position work? How's he get replaced with someone with more backbone?
repub=demo
same paychecks, same paymaster, same ooutcome.
the so called "conflict" between the dems and repubs is a carefully staged passion play, a "cage match" in WWF parlance.
"one day a man will come who will wash and the trash and scum from the streets"
The more the Republicans have to say the word 'Iraq' the worse they do in elections.
Nah... that tactic is just too easy and makes too much sense for the Democrats to follow. Plus, this would require some backbone! I mean how will they be able to say they support the troops if they allow Republicans to filibuster on a measure that supports the troops?
Just as they fear defunding the Iraq War so redeployment of troops would be inevitable and a life & limb saving gesture for the troops, they should also fear a stern stance on keeping them fit, both mentally and physically. They know that the Republican spin will make more sense to the American people. It's all about political expediency, not righteousness for Pete's sake!
Just out of curiosity though everyone says thats a good idea but how many of you actually call the senate and tell them thats what you want to do :) Personally I just got off the phone with Senator Reid's office and told them that I would like him to make the republicans fillibuster and not just move on after a cloture vote fails.
Make them stand up there and talk for hours and hours and hours. I love how when the Dems spoke of a filibuster they were bad mouthed by the republicans. Funny how a filibuster is ok for them to use but no one else. At one point the Republicans wanted to get rid of the filibuster but then realized they wouldnt be in power for all time they decided to rethink that.. They should have gotten rid of it. Where would they be now?
Make repubs stand at the docket and filibuster; invoke "inherent contempt" for
Harriet Miers; start impeachment hearings; cut off funding for the Iraq occupation;
there is a lot the dems in power can do, if only they would.
Too much speculation on the matter, the only thing that needs to be said is: "The more the Republicans have to say the word ‘Iraq’ the worse they do in elections." Just look at Fred Thompson's strategy - Less is more with these republicans. Expect the biggest landslide win in democratic history in 2008.
H...y...p...o...c...r...i...t...e...s
Duh! What took them so long?
Los Populistos:
I'd personally love to see a Steel Cage Anything Goes match between Jon Kyl and Jim Webb.
I'm not a military fan, but I'd be rooting for Webb all the way. Kyl is a sick, sick person.
I'd love to see it work
Brilliant Idea. Especially in the you-tube world. Make these jerks defend there untenable positions. Then throw their hypocrisy up on the Internet for all to see. It is time for the Democrats to stop running the congress like they are just a place holder for the Republicans and start running it like they own it. Get some BALLS
Even Christy Harden Smith has given up on Harry Reid a.k.a. Caspar Milquetoast. She has a good post on FDL on the same topic.
Follow-up
We need to see some follow-through. talking about this or sending a memo is a nice start, but we need to see:
1. Real DNC support/votes to compel vote to force a GOP filibuster to be real, not an illusory one;
2. Discussion of what the GOP is saying during the filibuster;
3. Questions of whether this GOP filibuster is more about distracting attention/time from impeachment;
4. Enforcement of rules which would impose consequences on the GOP if they fail to sustain their filibuster with real discussion, or a departure from the floor.
Reexamining DNC Filibusters/Non-Filibusters of MCA, Patriot Act
Going forward, we can put pressure on the GOP to filibuster. Fine. But, we need to examine what really got in the way of the DNC filibustering the illegal GOP bills 2001-2006. The same problems which got in the way then are going to continue unless they are [a] understood; [b] discussed; [c] solved; and [d] have the lessons learned applied to ensure the DNC fully supports what needs to be done: Full assertion of power to defend the Constitution against the GOP. Indeed, despite the DNC controlling the Senate, need to get a clean story: Where are there not enough votes to end the GOP filibuster? If there are not enough DNC votes, then the DNC needs to explain: Why were there no DNC Filibusters
Recall, if the argument is true -- "that we can't impeach because we have more important things to do" -- ten the DNC needs to challenge the GOP: Why is it filibustering the very things that it says, "We cannot impeach, because we need to focus on legislation."
Key Point: GOP Filibusters need to be linked with: "We're not impeaching, we're not legislating. We're obstructing." If the Congress will not impeach because "there are more important things to do," then the GOP by filibustering is a problem the DNC need to point out: We're not able to do the "other things" either. Time to end the GOP filibusters with a House impeachment: That will give the House managers total control, and force the GOP Senators to focus on what they hope to avoid with filibusters: Impeachment proceedings that will forever deny any possibility that President could be pardoned. Recall, even without a trial, Ford Pardoned Nixon. The best reason to start the Bush-Cheney impeachment proceedings is to deny all future Presidents the power to pardon Bush or Cheney.
IT'S ABOUT TIME DEMS
I'm all for making the repugs stand in the docket. Especially if we get to throw rocks at them.
Growing CONSENSUS?
What the hell? It should be STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES for the Democrats. Screw Lieberman, because I know it's Democrats like him, Ben Nelson, Blanche Lincoln, Mary Landrieu and Ken Salazar that prevents consensus, and stymies forcing filibusters by the ReThugs.
Reid either fishes or cuts bait here with those in the Senate who can't be counted on for Consensus on legislation that matters.
I say,"Go for it. You can't do any worse than what they are doing now."
Are you guys high? They've been filibustering. Nothing BUT filibustering.
If it's on CSPAN, sure.
I would love to see these guys looking like scoundrels defending their obvious bias toward the corporate elite while essentially enslaving the middle and lower classes. Of course, hardly anyone cares about politics anymore, and certainly not CSPAN, so perhaps it'd just go unnoticed, just like the obvious cover ups surrounding 9/11 and the Iraq war which are always dismissed as psychotic liberal conspiracy theories.
Thank God for the free media that still exists online. Of course they are already attacking that, and you know why.
Huh? All this time the Republicans simply demanded a change in the Constitution to require a 60% vote and didn't really filibuster? It would be nice if the Democrats actually started to pretend that they were in Congress. This kind of laziness from the Democrats piss me off. The Republicans who whined about having to work more than 3 days a week can't possibly stand on the dias for 20 hours straight to block legislation.
Nice attempt to "spread the word" as to requiring/making the Repig's stand on their
feet in the Senate Chamber and filibuster, HOWEVER, as good an idea as it is, we ALL
know that IF it were to occur, the proceedings would be covered ONLY by CSPAN
channel, and just how many people(other than perhaps those of us at C&L) would
actually take the time to tune-in and see the spectacal??? NOT many !!! And we
also know that the MSM as usual would give very, very little coverage to any filibuster
and in fact would most likely be highly critical of the Dems for taking time away from
other more important(BS) issues...
Do not underestimate the power of the filibuster. The republicans make good on their claim (not likely) and actually filibuster, it will seriously hurt their political party. This war is not endorsed anymore by the American People.
The greatest thing Clinton ever did was to force the shutdown of the government over the budget. It forced the media to cover the issue and made it clear who and what the problem was. Forcing the repugnacans to filibuster would serve the same purpose, it would focus media coverage on the repugs refusing to do something that the majority of Americans want, ending the war.
I think Dems should use the Republican playbook against them. Remember the old Republican line of "an up or down vote?" Dems should start complaining that Repubs won't allow up or down votes. I think it'll play very well with most Americans...
This should have been the plan from Day One. What took so long? Put the GOP on record regarding Iraq, abortion, stem cell research, etc.
Let's see how fast those cockroaches scurry away from the light.
I've been waiting for this. It's about time!
Nice post, 19. It looks like you've worked in beltway politics? Either that, or you've been thinking about this for a looooong time.
The GOP pimple is coming to a head. Time for the democrats to pop it, and let the puss fly in the media's face.
Yeah, we'll see. The Dems might try it, but god knows when push comes to shove, they'll all run back to their offices with their tails tucked neatly between their legs.
Doggiebobo @ 27:
Doggieboo, this is about making the Republicans filibuster. Your point about media coverage remains the same, however...it seems quite likely that a Repub filibuster will be highlighted on the MSM, and a Democratic one will be ignored or, worse, featured only if the Dem in question makes a boo-boo. Despite the slant of the press, however, making the Repubs filibuster in this political climate is a great idea and long overdue.
This kinda diverges from the whole CSPAN thing, sorry - regardless of who carries it (and the NY Times will at least note it), it's the right thing to do.
Honestly, something like this isn't a coup of strategic genius (Republicans are threatening to block needed laws + everyone hates partisan gridlock = call their bluff and force the issue). This is the kind of stuff that any competent politician should be able to figure out on their own, let alone the majority of both houses of Congress together. So why is it that the "leadership" of the Democratic party needs to wait for the grassroots or bloggers or some interest group to yell at them to do something before they do it? Is the trouble that the leadership is a bunch of cowards? Or is it that they can't make basic tactical judgments without consulting someone else or hearing it from the net first?
Don't get me wrong, I honestly believe that the vast majority of their hearts are in the right place (heck, I even believe that of many of the misguided people on the other side of the aisle), but it seems the Democratic leadership is either weak-kneed or incompetent. What am I missing?
First post, so go easy :) Thanks!
Seele^ @ 12:
I agree. They've had the albatross of the Bush administration around their necks, but they've ben trying to hide it from public view. Get them on on the other end of that steamroller!
Now? They're just realizing this now?
Jesus, they shold have been doing this on day #2 upon taking control of the house & senate.
charliemeatball @ 37:
You're doing better than I did. Heck, better than I do! Keep at it.
[Bob, We're touched by your 'concern'-Sitemonitor]
charliemeatball @ 37:
\
Welcome aborad C&L's "comment" section. Your post is well stated and clear...and your
your last question as to "What am I missing?"...is answered in your own post..that being
that the "Democratic leadership IS weak-kneed and incompetent..UNFORTUNATELY.
Bob Roberts @ 41:
I can't stand "they are all the same" BS. They are similar in that both parties are like politicans, but there are fundamental differences, mostly in regards to all the New Deal social programs republicans have tried to dismantle since the 1970s.
But as for revolution goes, even the constitution says we can revolt if we are not happy with the way the nation is being governed. But as of right now, people are not motivated enough to do that at this point in history charliemeatball @ 37.
Think Progress does a good job at highlighting the GOP goal: To block DNC progress.
SO much for the President's "call" on Congress to "focus on important things."
See how that is:
1. President engages in impeachable offences;
2. President says Congress should "focus on important legislation, not impeachment"
3. GOP plans to block that legislation
4. Net result: DNC doesn't impeach; and gets blamed for not doing anything.
Summary: The President isn't serious when he's asking for "more important" things; the GOP isn't going to cooperate. Time for the DNC leadership to acct:
The GOP-Presidential obstruction for what it is: They aren't serious about "focusing on other things" nor is the argument "we have more important things to do than impeachment" a credible argument.
DNC was baited to "focus" on things the DNC has no plans to cooperate.
DNC was induced not to use filibuster for the "big scary" reason that it might "lose support."
Big clue for the DNC: You have the majority behind you. The 2006 election mandate gave you the support. The more you put pressure on this President, the more the GOP disaffected are going to join your side.
Quit wasting time trying to "make" the GOP filibuster. Put your energy into impeachment. All the DNC is doing is planning into the GOP-President's agenda: Thwarting a House impeachment to ensure the President can be pardoned, like Nixon was, without a trial.
How is the DNC leadership able to get induced into not asserting its power? Wake up! The GOP has well communicated it is not serious about focus on the "important agenda." Time for the DNC to respond: Impeach!
All the Energy the DNC leadership is using to "make" the GOP filibuster, could be better spent on impeaching.
Tell the President and GOP: If you obstruct the legislation, then Americans will realize: You are not serious out "focusing on more important issues other than impeachment" and that you "do have time to block legislation, despite false claims that there is 'no time' for impeachment."
if the legislation is blocked, then the money attached to that legislation needs to be blocked. The Congress needs to zero-out funds; and make the GOP attempt to pass Amendments to add money. Even if the President vetoes a bill that "has no money," the President still gets no money.
DNC needs to link "thwarting legislation with impeachment and no funding".
If the DNC refuses to do this, the DNC leadership needs to explain:
1. Why did they not filibuster 2001-2006 to block illegal bills;
2. How does the President -- in his weakened position -- explain how he is able to get money, despite the DNC having the power to zero-out bills in committee; and compel the GOP to pass Amendments to add money
3. Why is the DNC using the "threat of a veto of a bill with no money" as any leverage: The President, even if he vetoes a bill with no money, still gets nothing
4. Why is the DNC worried about a "backlash" -- this claim of a "backlash" is from the GOP: Since when is the GOP going to provide valuable advise to their political opponents in the DNC?
Wake up
A. Once the President is impeached, regardless the outcome in the Senate, he is forever denied the possibility of a pardon. Ford's pardon of Nixon was done without Nixon being the subject of any criminal trial.
B. Quit wasting time "making" the GOP filibuster; use that time making the GOP Senators respond to the House impeachment.
C. Make it clear to the public: The GOP and President are not serious when they say there is "more important things than impeachment" as evidenced by the GOP blocking of that very legislation. Use the blocked legislation as proof the President and GOP are not serious in moving to "other things" but to use smokescreens to avoid impeachment.
D. Ignore what the Senate GOP may or may not do during the trial phase. Once the impeachment int he House starts, the President and VP cannot be pardoned ever. Doesn't matter what the Senators do.
E. Remind the public: The President is not serious about legislation: He refuses to Honor the existing bills. There is no sense in Congress passing new bills. The bills, even if passed, are getting ignored or vetoed. It does not make sense for Congress to attempt to "try to pass a bill" which the GO has pre-decided will be filibustered.
G. The 110th Congress does not need to solve all the problems. The President's "direction" to the Congress to "focus on legislation" is a smokescreen. The President cannot require the Congress to "legislate" until Congress gathers facts related to the impeachable offences. Until Congress faces the issues of signing statements -- and other things this President is doing to refuse to enforce the law -- it makes no sense to attempt to pass new legislation that will likely be similarly vetoed, ignored, modified, or not put into effect despite the Constitutional requirement on the President to do so.
H. The GOP's filibustering is a symptom of the problem: The President's obstruction of Congress. Stop responding, DNC. Put impeachment on the table, start it, and then compel the GOP Senators to accept: This President cannot be pardoned. Ever.
I. For now, proceed with the plan to make the GOP filibuster. But also prepare to impeach. The same energy the DNC is using to "respond" to the GOP -- and used to "make" the GOP filibuster in the Senate -- could be used to organize the DNC leadership to support impeachment in the House. Do both: Make the GOP filibuster; and prepare to impeach when it is shown that the GOP is not serious about doing "other things other than impeachment."
Okay people I 've just made my call I hope everyone here has. the lines were all busy ( very short wait ) but someone did take my message. Reid has to listen to us if he wants to be there next year
With all due respect to my liberal and leftwing colleagues. This is just another example how Democrats attempt to shift attention away from the real issue, and put undue burden on our govt in more procedures and bureaucracy. Democrats have already proven themselves that they cannot govern, and now they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes again.
I don't get this "The democrats leadership is weak" Remember: the American People rewarded bush for his invasion with a second term. The people who are weak IMHO is the public who allowed the republicans to have such total control of washington for so long. Remember there are 49 democrats in the Senate, and suprise suprise 49 republicans in the senate too. And one of the Independents is a guy named Joe Lieberman.
Straight up or down vote. Straight up or down vote. Rs shoved this phrase up the D's tushes for 5 years, now use it on them. Cheeze, do we have to think of everything for the D leadership here?
Make them actually filibuster?!? FUCK YEAH!
Finally.
Seele^ @ 47:
Remember: the American People rewarded bush for his invasion with a second term.
I disagee...OHIO was, by voter irregularities, GIVEN to bush-lite....and in 2008
we must be viligant and see that this does not happen again.
Left Behind Advocate @ 46:
Laughing out Loud! Tell that to the 49 democrats in the senate! Or maybe tell that to the 49 republicans in the senate instead? Way to abandon the Democratic party just when they are on equal footing with the republicans. (Guiliani is looking forward to you staying home on election day 2004)
Left Behind Advocate @ 46:
The reason you are left behind is because you don't try to keep up.
Doggiebobo @ 50:
I disagee...OHIO was, by voter irregularities, GIVEN to bush-lite....and in 2008
we must be viligant and see that this does not happen again.
You cannot excuse the huge amount of support bush had in 2004 with one state's fraud. I disagree with people who write off republican support in this country with cop outs like "ohh, they rigged a state or two" Republicans are so terrible they should have lost all states in 2004.
GOP Shows It's Not Serious About Legislation
It's blocking leglsation to distract attention from impeachment. Recall,thea rgument "againt" impeachment was that there were "more important" things to do: Pass legislation. Now, the GOP shows it is blocking the very thign that was upposed to be the "reason not to have impeachment."
The reasonable conclusion: Impeach! do the very thing the GOP, as evidenced by their obstruction, does not want.
Seele^ @ 28:
I'm not convinced that "filibuster is bad for the GOP" when the benefit it: It distracts attention from the impeachment. Recall: the "big concern" was "we need to focus on legislation, so we can't impeach." Now, the GOP is showing its true colors: Not serious about "other legislation that we need to address, so we can't impeach" but something else" Blocking the very thing that they say is "more important than impeachment."
Wake up world:
1. The President is issuing signing statements to adjust the Congressional Acts;
2. Even if the President does sign a bill, he doesn't enforce it, unless he wants to -- that is illegal
3. Even if the Congress does "spending time on more important things than impeachment" and passes a bill, the President vetoes it.
4. Even if the Senate does agree to something, the GOP Senators are refusing to agree with a Conference committee.
Wow. Look at this grid-lock. This isn't a DNC problem: But the GOP. To avoid impeachment, this GOP has to shut down the US government. Time for the DNC to call this GOP what it is: Obstructionist. And this GOP Congress can be thwarted by doing one thing: Impeaching. It will give the House control of the Senate; the House will be able to block GOP filibusters; and it will forever deny the President of getting a pardon.
Let me say that again: It doesn't matter if the GOP Senators vote to convict: Once this President and VP are impeached by the House, they can never be pardoned. Ever.
There is no benefit to spending this much time on "forcing the GOP to filibuster"; there is benefit to framing this GOP action as this: "Evidence that the President, in calling for 'more important legislation that cannot be addressed if there is an impeachment' as disingenuous."
Bluntly:
A. The President is calling on the Congress to "work on" legislation he has no intention of approving; cooperating with; passing; or enforcing;
B. The GOP Members of Congress are not going to "do the more important things than impeachment" -- passing bills -- because they've shown their true colors: Blocking bills is a means to divert attention of the DNC leadership from impeachment to the "DNC response to the GOP action of blocking bills."
C. Big clue: Time for the DNC leadership to call this mess what it is: The President isn't serious about passing bills, supporting the law, or enforcing new Acts of Congress. No reason to spend time of Congress working on bills which this President shows he will not cooperate with. It is more effective use of Congress' time to spend time doing what will make a difference: Ensuring this President is forever denied the possibility that he can be ever pardoned.
Time for the DNC to stop reacting to the President's obstruction; and force the President and GOP to respond to the impeachment. Impeachment means:
A. The House will block the GOP filibusters;
B. There sill be no time spent on bills which the President plans to veto or not enforce
C. The House will take control of the agenda;
D. There will be a public examination of the President's illegal conduct: Signing statements, refusals to enforce the law, and illegal efforts to not implement acts as require by Congress
Again, it's a waste of time for the DNC to 'respond" to the GOP "filibuster" by "making the GOP filibuster." That's a waste: that means the DNC is playing into the GOP: Giving the President ammunition to say, "Look the DNC is wasting time, making the GOP waste time. Let's move on to move important things.''
The Important Thing: Impeachment, denial of this president a pardon, and the repudiation of the GOP Party.
Anon @ 54:
Again, it's a waste of time for the DNC to 'respond" to the GOP "filibuster" by "making the GOP filibuster." That's a waste: that means the DNC is playing into the GOP: Giving the President ammunition to say, "Look the DNC is wasting time, making the GOP waste time. Let's move on to move important things.''
The Important Thing: Impeachment, denial of this president a pardon, and the repudiation of the GOP Party.
Dude, democrats don't have enough votes to impeach Bush. Remember - they need the same amount to overcome one of these filibusters you claim are unimportant.
The problem with allowing the GOP to filibuster is that the Democrats would then have to sit in the Senate along with them. This would get in the way of their dinners with lobbyists, power brokers, and partying staffers. The majority of them are too busy with their careers to bother with doing their jobs.
Yeah cause that will.... slow things down a lot more. We wouldn't want anyone actually DOING anything.
Democrats have to take the ball back and put it in their court. Approval of congress is low because of the republicans blocking everything the democrats try to pass. If allowing them to carry out a filibuster to bring the attention to the EXTREME RIGHT WING MAIN STREAM MEDIA (ERWMSM) so be it.
http://myfightfordemocracy.blogspot.com/2007/07/new-declaration-of-indep...
obeythefist @ 56:
I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time they snuck booze into the senate.
GOP Will Have To Defend the President Which Gutted GOP
Impeachment means the President is not pardoned; Department of Justice Will have to Defend the very reckless president that has undermined confidence in the Department of Justice
Remind us again who is in the White House? The GOP.
Who is in obstructing the very legislation this President "wants"? The GOP, because the President doesn't want legislation, he wants a smokescreen; and to get Congress to spend time on anything other than impeachment.
The GOP has induced the DNC not to filibuster; the GOP has shifted attention from impeachment to "Whether or not the DNC does or doe not block filibuster."
Left Behind Advocate @ 46:
The real issue: This lying President's illegal activity; and his failing efforts to block impeachment.
Even if the GOP Senate refuses to convict, what do the lazy, reckless WH Counsel plan to do when the President cannot be pardoned? Without a pardon, the DOJ OLC will have to defend this President.
Make the DOJ OLC Defend This War Criminal
Impeachment means that there can be no pardon. The DOJ OLC will have to organize its evidence against the very man that has brought discredit upon the DOJ. How is the DOJ OLC going to enjoy doing that: Defending the very man who has undermined public confidence in the DOJ OLC. Make the DOJ OLC do the very thing it does not want to do: Defend the person who has gutted the DOJ.
obeythefist @ 56:
Would the DNC like to listen to the GOP filibuster, or to the House managers present an impeachment?
Eitehr way, the Senate is goign to get shut down. Either by the GOP or the DNC.
wow, nice new tactic.
Left Behind Advocate @ 46 : Hahaha . right. Yeah, 2001-present has been a real success! The "real issues" have been left behinds since the beginning of this admin. We're distracted by a failed war which will be dropped on the next administrations lap (and possibly another war with Iran). Now if that's not a grand FUBAR, then I don't know what is. Oh...let me guess...CLINTON!
Seele^ @ 55:
Dude, democrats don't have enough votes to impeach Bush. Remember - they need the same amount to overcome one of these filibusters you claim are unimportant.
Doesn't amtter: Once the President is impeached -- regardless the Senate vote -- he is denied a pardon.
Let me say that again: DNC does have enough votes to impeach in the House. You're confusing the House power to impeach, which denies the President a pardon, with the Senate power to convict.
You're confusing yourself.
Once the House impeaches, that is, in effect, a House method to trump the GOP Filibusters: The House will take control of the Senate, and conduct the trial.
As said before, the GOP and the DNC are going to end up shutting down teh Senate. Either the GOP is going to filibuster; or the DNC is going to conduct a trial.
Choose.
I thought the republicans were for the nuclear option when it came to filibustering. What happened?
Additionally, when Clinton was impeached (and acquitted), it didn't stop the Arkansas Bar from yanking his law license for ethics and misconduct.
So when you say Bush would be denied a pardon under articles of impeachment, would it also open the door for him to face a global tribunal for war crimes when his term is up?
We also need to think about preventing martial law from these numbnuts. Cheney might not want to leave on January 20, 2009 - so we need to make damned sure they all get the hell out of Government on that day or else...WELCOME TO "It Can't Happen Here..."
Once the House impeaches, that is, in effect, a House method to trump the GOP Filibusters: The House will take control of the Senate, and conduct the trial.(WHAT A JOKE. AND
DO BELIEVE YOU ARE SERIOUS)
As said before, the GOP and the DNC are going to end up shutting down teh Senate. Either the GOP is going to filibuster; or the DNC is going to conduct a trial.
Choose.
Your analogy does not hold water or piss....GET REAL !!!
Democrats are idiots, complicit enablers and liars. They knew all this minutes after the start of this congress. If they were honest and had any integrity they would have brought this to a head and attempted to resolve it then - they didnt - instead they postured and lied. Why? Because that is what they do.
The republicans on the other hand continued as good Zero Sum Social Darwinists (ZSSDs) to lay waste to the country, destroying everything in their path on their inexorible march to 'victory'.
This country is a smoking cinder - I have decided - I'm not fixing this bitch. If its fixed, the republicans will just destroy it again.
These republicans (not the republicans or Teddy Rooseveldt (sp) or Eisenhower) need to be outlawed. They wont be. They will remain and in control. They are relentless, uncompromising, unprincipled, thieving, murderous, liars ... undemocratic and unamerican. As long as they are allowed to operate as if they were none of the above, there will be no 'america'.
It should be required that in order to participate in civil society and government, you must 1) believe IN civil society and government and 2) accept that it is criminal NOT TO believe in civil society and government within the context of civil society and government.
That is the requirement and test ... the republicans fail it completely. They are enemies of the people, civil society and government - which should be the servant of the people.
The democrats - like that moron Franken - believe that while you may not agree with something a person says, they have the right to say it. That of course is the belief of morons and enablers. You can have a difference of opinion over cupcakes but not the existence of civil society and government. That is bedrock. That should be given and if it isnt ...
You cannot abide enemies of democracy and civil society if you intend to have democracy and civil society.
Franken is an idiot. Franken is typical of most democrats. They will and have abide the very people who have and are telling them they will destroy them. And wait for it ... they will be destroyed.
Hitler made it clear what he was about. People didnt agree. Hitler did what he said he would do - as will the republicans as will Grover Norquist. Disagreeing with them wont prevent them from doing precisely what they say they are going to do.
The democrats dont agree with any of the above, will not outlaw undemocratic ideologies and will be complicit in the further destruction of the nation.
(unedited)
Bob Roberts @ 41:
Why, thank you. But why put 'concern' in quotes?
Both parties have, in effect, agreed the Senate is useless. Time for the DNC to decide: Would you like to let the House run the Senate -- through the impeachment/trial phase; or would you like the Senate to remain irrelevant; or would you like the GOP to shut down the Senate with Filibusters and block legslation?
As said before: The Senate has to decide if it is going to be relevant: Either agreeing it has no power to stop the DNC from impeaching; or in admitting it has no power to block the GOP filibusters. It doesn't matter if there are or are not enough votes to "convict": Once the President and Vice President are impeached in the House, that impeachment means that they can never be pardoned. Ever.
Time for the House leadership to accept: The GOP plans to block bills in the Senate. Time for the DNC leadership to accept: The calls by the President and GOP to "focus on more important things" is a ruse. The GOP has no plans to cooperate. Regardless what the Senate does -- either convict or not convict the President -- the House impeachment means that the President and VP are not eligible for any pardon. Ever. That lone is a reason to impeach. Where's Clinton's pardon? He has no pardon. It will never happen: He was impeached. Time to give the same to the President and VP.
Look broadly: The Senate GOP has said it will filibuster things. Fine, then accept that the President and GOP are reckless in saying, "We have no time to impeach, we have other more important things to do." No they don't: They have more important smokescreens to create.
Take the GOP Filibuster for what it is: An admission by the GOP and President that nobody in the Republican party is serious bout focusing on "more important things other than impeachment," but the opposite:
They're using the "prospect of legislation tomorrow to avoid impeachment today..." Tomorrow... Tomorrow.
Remember what we know: Certain impeachment is certain; speculative calls for "new legislation" may or may not be enforced; may or may not be vetoed; and may or may not be filibustered.
This DNC leadership has an oath. Time for the legal community to confront the DNC leadership: Either you wake up and realize you are being manipulated to accept non-sense; or we are going to prosecute you for reckless defiance of your oath.
ON the table:
- Prosecution of Members of Congress for reckless assent to this non-sense;
- Prosecution of Members of Congress for refusing to use all lawful options to impeach;
- Prosecution of Members of Congress for refusing to use all lawful options to enforce the law;
- Pro suction of Members of Congress for Believing this GOP nonsense about "possible future legislation" while they ignore the certain inaction on impeachment.
- Prosecution of Members of Congress for refusing to keep all options on the table to deny the President a pardon, and ensure he is not insulated from all future criminal litigation
Illegal Dictatorships May Not Be Lawfully Supported
If the DNC refuses to impeach, and rejects the GOP ruse of "we have more important things to do than impeach", then the DNC will, by its inaction on impeachment, have communicated that is it complicit with this dictatorship.
We the People have the power to declare this government a dictatorship; and We the People may lawfully refuse to preform on all contractors putting this illegal doctorship into effect.
Summary
On the table is the imminent shut down of the Senate. Either the GOP is going
to block bills; or the DNC is going to impeach, and take over the Senate with a trial. Once the President is impeached -- in the House -- a Senate vote to acquit is meaningless: The President is still denied the option to have any pardon. The only way this President can avoid impeachment is if he induces the DNC to not assert their 5 USC 3331 oath of office (more evidence of illegal activity); or if he can induce the GOP Senators to block all actions, to distract attention from impeachment.
This President has said "We need to work on legislation" knowing full well [a] the GOP is going to block that legislating; and [b] the President will veto, not support, or enforce anything that he does not agree. There is no sense in spending time on "new" legislation,when the existing legislation is not getting enforced.
What You Need To Do
Support the DNC efforts to make the GOP filibuster; remind the DNC leaderhspi that the effort to orgnize these "forcing filibusters" could be avoided if the House leadership impeached, and the GOP filibusters were shut down completely.
Outline the above in terms of what will clearly communicate: We the people support impeachment to deny the President and Vice President any chance of a pardon.
The President, in calling for Congress to "work on more important legislation" is being disingenuous. He is doing this for one reason: To keep the DNC focus on the legislation and GOP filibusters, not on the real problem: This President has not been impeached.
Remind your Member of Congress you support GOP Filibusters because: It will show the GOP is not serious about "doing other things" and that the 'reasons for not having an impeachment" are based on frivolous excuses.
Call the GOP Senators and thank them for continuing to do stupid things and ask them to look at their campaign contributions.
Reach out to your friends and encourage them to see the smokescreen that the President is using to distract attention from the need for impeachment: It will deny this President any chance of a pardon by any DNC or GOP President. Ford pardoned Nixon despite there being no trial for Nixon.
Remind your Friends there are other options to deal with this: State Attorney generals may prosecute a sitting President; the DNC leadership can zero-out funds in the bills before they leaves committees, requiring the GOP to add an amendment to get any funds. How is the President going to be happy if he has no money? He won't be happy.
Time to make it clear to the DNC: There is something valuable with impeachment: IT gives the DNC control of the Senate; and the GOP Senators have no power to filibuster an impeachment. The GOP is silenced, and has no power to block the trial phase/proceedings on the Senate floor.
Review
Do you see what is happening: The President is in a corner. He's attempting to make it look like it's the DNC's "problem" that nothing is getting done. No, this is merely evidence that the president's "call to work on important other than impeachment" was not serous about working on those "other things," but the opposite: To distract attention needed on impeachment.
All time spent on filibuster and blocking filibuster is time not spent on impeachment and reminding the public of one thing: Impeachment denies the President and Vice President of any prospect that they will ever get a pardon. Ever. It doesn't matter whether the Senate votes to convict or not: There are enough votes to support impeachment if the DNC leadership sees the wisdom in impeaching.
No, oh no, not a growing consensus. The republicans must be shaking upon hearing such a thing. WOW! a growing consensus. Of course were the filibusters played out, the democrats would probably hold the republicans coats and fetch them water and such.
BTW, can we start having Jim Webb speak for the democrats instead of Harry Ried? Harry's a smart guy and good political strategist but man oh man his time at the mic is weak.
Screw the filibuster - let's resurrect the Nuclear Option! This time, it can benefit the Dems. I'd love to hear the Repig hypocrites howl - what happened to "an up or down vote" that was nearly sacred to them when they were in power?
Fuckwads.
The Political Junkie @ 65:
There is a larger question ... should the world consider the US an enemy of civility and democracy and deal with it? I suspect that the world ... at this point in history ... considers US citizens to be complicit in US crimes in the world.
Remember Nazi Germany. The world dealt with it even though there were surely individuals that were not complicit.
At this point - while I would agree with it - turing Bush over to stand a fair trail in an international forum ------------- at the end or AFTER his term ------ would be seen as a false display. I dont think the world would buy it. The stink Bush and the republicans have put on the US will be there for the balance of the century.
You are now an ugly american - get used to it.
Sitemonitor: Tho "Anon Say" may have something to say on this topic, his extremely
l o n g rantings and ravings are better placed in his OWN website...Personally,
most of the other C&L postings are much more distinct and on point, whereas his
ramblings are beginning to get on my nerves...I know, I don't have to read...and I
understand and appreciate that fact.
This is a different anon.
anon @ 67:
Notice the distraction from impeachment, and denial of Pardon to the President and VP with impeachment in the House. Irrelevant what the Senate decides. Once the President is impeached he may never be pardoned:
Recall the President is not reliable. Time for the GOP to accept they are not leading.
......
Impeachment Means President Denied Pardon
Notice the zero-sum argument: "They're all bad, so do nothing."
. . ..
There Are Solutions
Notice this defeatist attitude:
Why post if you think there is no hope? No credible explanation other than to induce others to give up.
. . . .
Lawfully Punishing the GOP
What will be done to ensure the GOP does not use their "outlawing" as a basis to come back, as did the Nazis?
We still have a Constitution. All violations of that is evidence of illegal activity. States AG may prosecute for violations, regardless US Atty inaction.
. ...
New Rules To Ignore Lack of Enforcement of Existing
Here's a smokescreen: Ignore the President's illegal activity and not use impeachment; but let's talk about "new rules" that the President and others can block, not enforce. We don't need new rules; we need to enforce the existing ones:
Beliefs cannot be prosecuted; only actions. Impossible to enforce "incorrect beliefs." Further, look at the oath: Explicit action required, but not enforced as it should be.
. . .
GOP Unreliable: Campaign Funds To Prove It
Agree: tests are needed to screen leadership. Only test that "cannot" be used is religious. Good idea on tests.
This is not helpful:
OK:
What is your point.....:
Hitler made it clear what he was about. People didnt agree. Hitler did what he said he would do - as will the republicans as will Grover Norquist. Disagreeing with them wont prevent them from doing precisely what they say they are going to do."
We the People Are Sovereign
We the people can discuss a solution and alternatives.
(unedited)
OK. you've discussed what you do not like. What would you like to see as a solution?
Anon - 69, I agree with you, but there is a problem. The republicans are still running the government. True they are running it differently and they cant stop the hearings, but they are still running it.
The hearings ... to this point ... are meaningless. Nothing has been done. Bush commuted Libby's sentence and the hearings drone on to no end.
I'm not sure there will be an end. Democrats dont have the votes to override vetoes. I suspect that if the democrats force the republicans to fillibuster they will get blamed for it in a republican press conference. Conyers cant get HR 676 passed, I have my doubts about anything coming out of his committee. (And the same for the other committees - in particular in the senate).
The democrats are 'dealing' with a wild tiger by discussing its behavior with it ... they will end up on the ground with their guts laying beside them. These democrats just arent up to it. Its the junior varsity football team against the crips ... crips win.
Harry Reid is doing an outstanding job. He will go down as one of the most effective majority leaders the history of the senate. He has my full support.
Doggiebobo @ 73:
Perhaps if you commented on the material and subject presented, not style with a coherent, short comment, you might get a short response.
OK: If they GOP is "running" the Government, what will be done to remind them that they are not in charge? Impeachment.
anon @ 75:
OK, we have to work with what we have: State AGs can act outside Congress; and they can prosecute Members of Congress.
Doesn't matter if DNC does or does not have votes to override vetoes: If the DNC put "zeros" in the budget, a Presidential veto of zero is still zero.
DNC needs to stop reacting, and set the agenda: Impeachment would deny Bush a Pardon.
If this guy is not decent and honest (maybe to square) mankind has lost the ability to make them.
Anon 74, the fundamental problem is this cant be 'discussed'.
Let me elaborate. A Zero Sum Social Darwinist (ZSSD) will do anything to achieve their goal - 'victory'. Anything. Lie, cheat, steal, kill ... fill in the blank. You must understand that you are not having a difference of opinion. They are attempting to destroy you. They know what they want. They arent willing to discuss that. If a discussion occurs, it will be tactical.
You mention the constitution. How about this. The president is acting upon monarchical political theories that are nowhere to be found in the constitution. They have the courts and will be replacing ginzberg (sp) shortly. Do you remember his quote - the constitution is just a piece of paper? I ask, what constitution.
You are playing by rules against people with none. Your rules wont stop them. If you think they can, be specific. Prosecution? Gonzales. Constitutional challenge? Alito and Roberts. Congress? Veto and fillibuster. Legislation? Signing statements. More justice? Millitary tribunals.
.... non-constitutional monarchical political theories define this administration.
You act as if you still actually had a game to play. You really dont. That is the point I am trying to make. The acts available in the constitution that are meant to be used as a last resort are needed, although it may be too late even for them, or have you forgotten the presidential order 51?
You arent going to pass consequential legislation.
You arent going to impeach anyone.
You arent going to get prosecutions with punishments.
... at least you wont with an unaware and laconic public.
I believe that people need to understand just how late it is. Whatever is attempted by congress would have a better chance of success IF the true nature of the situation and the true natures of the republicans were known.
With a packed court, signing statements, thug brownshirts in congress, christian fundamentalists, presidential order 51, millitary commissions and more ... there is either no game left or not much of one. Boxer was right and brave.
At this late date, most things just wont work.
The public needs to know.
Anon 78 - State AG's, great point.
I thought the republican's were against filibustering. Isn't that why they wanted the nuclear option?
First thing they should make them filibuster is Jim Webbs amendment that gives soldiers equal time off for the time they serve in Iraq. The media could have a field day with that one.
Farmer @ 82:
I have an honest question - did you decide the republicans were honest, honorable and had integrity? Or did they just tell you that was true? Believe your eyes, they lied. They lied because they feared the fillibuster, which is why they are using it now.
Do you think americans decided republicans had honor and integrity or were they told? History says, they were told. (Limbaugh, Fox, Reagan, Falwell on and on and not a citation for decent behavior among any of them).
republicans need to be reexamined publicly.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/16/reid-filibuster/#comments
I just sent Reid a lovely boquet of flowers politely asking him to make the republicans filibuster the hard way....
Hurrah!!!!!! Finally seeing the light. Make them taske responsibility for halting the progress of government. The dimwitted Americans who think that just because one party has a majority that it can accomplish anything need to be taught a civics lesson.
I also think they should stand and speak about impeachment on these grounds: "Do you want President Hillary to have the same amount of power as Bush has amassed? If not we must impeach him while we can and set the precedent!" That would scare enough neo-cons to act on impeachment among other issues.
If the Dems don't do this, they will lose Congress next time around, period.
The people who don't really pay attention know nothing of Republican obstructionism-- they only the Democrats aren't fixing anything.
The people who *are* paying attention (the base) will notice if the Dems fail to remove this rule and just continue allowing such easy obstructionism.
Look the country is all but lost already. We have an administration that can and is keeping legislation he doesn't like at bay by using signing statements. This renders any legislation totally useless as it is rewritten to suit the whim of the administration.
We have the Patriot Act and the MCA which can be used against American citizens at the whim of the president ... so we are no longer a true country of laws and all of us are in danger from our own government.
I could go on and on, but what is the use. All I have to say is "what part of dictatorship do you not understand?"
This being the case, filibuster, up or down vote ... who cares .... it will solve nothing, and it appears to me that America is lost big time!
If they did this their popularity would go up 10 points overnight.
Excellent post!
It's far past time to stand up to these bloviators and watch them hang themselves from their own petards.
http://monsteroflove.blog-city.com/memo_to_dems__make_the_republicans_fi...
anon @ 84:
The question I asked was TIC.
[...] a whole lot of pressure from bloggers didn’t hurt. But this needs to become SOP. Democrats cannot allow the GOP to threaten [...]
monsteroflove @ 93:
Why are you running Ann Coulter ads?
Farmer 94, I dont know what TlC means?
How dare anyone suggest that the loyal opposition cause discomfiture to the ruling party?
anon Says:Farmer 94, I dont know what TlC means?
Tongue in cheek.
Farmer @ 98:
Oh ... never mind. :)
S.D. Says: Frist WHAT do you mean?????
hmmm i am having one of those wiggly, fuzzy fade to flashback moments here. you know like wayne always had on wayne's world....i am remembering a time when filibusters were threatened to be met with some pretty radical actions by the good doctor (joke) senator frist when he was occupying the head repube senate seat. didn't they call it something like the nuclear option? weren't filibusters evil and unpatriotic. wouldn't it be grand to see MSM and others show video of the past repube statements telling us uninformed americans how bad for the country a filibuster would be..... i for one say rub their bush brown noses in it, make them speak for hours on end, close the restrooms nearest the chambers so in the middle of the night when the coffee works through their systems they will have to run, not walk for relief. and the entire time they filibuster, get on live broadcast and tell the american people what's going on, and show the clips over and over again of their threats. make the words "paybacks are a bitch" really mean something here. oh no flashback wiggle clearing, back in reality..MSM will barely, if at all, mention their past opinion of filibusters. there will no doubt be little comparison to their recent past statements and what they say now that they are out of power. but damn wouldnt it be grand indeed.
"Politically, there is no way we can lose by employing this tactic."
There's the problem with this Congress. Dem's are so worried about NOT DOING something that might go wrong, that they can't focus on DOING THE RIGHT THING.
Come on, guys, listen to the voice of We, the People.
Exercise the "nuclear option" and force the sniveling right-wing ideologues to accept they have become marginalized. If it's legislation bush wants passed, ignore it; don't submit it for any committee hearings. Just boycott the traitor until he begins to accept oversight by the legislative branch of government.
It's great that Reid is finally forcing filibuster now, but why the hell did he allow 40 clotures before coming to this decision?!?
I don't think the Dems want to take this God-given chance to smite the Repubs into political oblivion because if they destroy the GOP they're afraid of one thing above all else:
A Multi-party system popping up!
Both Dims and Repunks know the two-party system, it's always been there, it's familiar... If a multi-party system DOES pop up, they'll run the risk of losing control of all that power!
Think about it.
Multi-Party System = True Democracy
Two-Party System = Sham Government
I agree with Erik28. Bring back the Web amendment again and force Mitchy and his crones to filibuster it again, revealing just how much the Republicans do not support the troops.
anon @ 99:
It's also a nervous twitch.
Watch boosh press conference nowdays for the best example thereof.
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