'At least until November'
By Steve Benen Thursday Jul 19, 2007 7:11amIn Wednesday’s press briefing, Tony Snow emphasized the same point he and his colleagues have been pressing for weeks: when it comes to the future of Iraq policy, everyone should just shut up until September.
Just 24 hours after Snow once again asked for patience, the administration changed its tune — September isn’t good enough anymore.
The top commanders in Iraq and the American ambassador to Baghdad appealed for more time beyond their mid-September assessment to more fully judge if the new strategy was making gains.
Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, the No. 2 commander in Iraq, told Pentagon reporters that while he would provide the mid-September assessment of the new military strategy that Congress has required, it would take “at least until November” to judge with confidence whether the strategy was working.
All the talk about September was just to buy a little time. The White House couldn’t give Republican suckers lawmakers any additional reasons to vote their consciences, so they implored them to keep filibustering until Petraeus could report back. But it was just the latest in a tragically long line of shams.
And keep in mind, while administration officials are talking about putting off progress “at least until November,” the Wall Street Journal reports that they’re actually eyeing January.
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Now you know it is bad when they are already extending their deadline before it arrives. No one requests an extension over a month in advance.
And the it will be march, then maj and then oops dont change course until election.
We need a new name for these 2 month units. Sub-friedmans?
wake me up when September ends
Things in war are not always predictable. Perhaps the Dems should be a little more supportive of the War effort OR just go ahead and defund the WAR -- but they shouldn't have it both ways.
Sadly, this is no suprise. The Bush administration promoted the misguided and destructive war in Iraq by targeting five core concerns that often govern our lives--concerns about vulnerability, injustice, distrust, superiority, and helplessness. Looking ahead, the continuing occupation of Iraq--or an attack on Iran--will likely be sold to us in much the same way. I examine these warmongering appeals--and how to counter them--in an online video entitled “Resisting the Drums of War” available for viewing at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81UKnb5zJbM.
quit giving the adminstration a hard time, moving goal posts is hard work
(ya gotta move the bleachers, push back the end zone, repaint the stripes, dig a new hole....)
The whole Republic party is one big sham...so it should be no surprise that these assholes would pull this on their own people just as easy as they pull it on the Dems.
When are they going to die?
Moving the goal posts yet again. Now you know what they mean when they talk about "the soft bigotry of low expectations." The incompetence of this administration and their sycophants on full display.
and you didnt expect that did you now
Oh great Lord Cheney, Omnipotent puppeteer of Bush and all the judges in the land, please do not smite the little gnome Harry and his ineffective war stopping band of gutless shadow dems with your laser eyes or supersonic breath of hellfire, for they know not what they do.
Boy, do they know not what they do.
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Obviously what we need to do is put off any progress reports until the war is over... at some point..... maybe.....
The majority of the American public is not following events such as this. Call me optimisitc, but I say we are doomed.
sh@dow, wouldn't the best way be to demand the Congressional Democrats flat out NOT fund the war -- by phoning, fax and emails -- in abundance. The Dems in Congress have the power to do that right now, nothing to be vetoed by the Pres.
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 7:
Psst- The Dems are a willing PART of the sham, which is why they are so breathtakingly impotent, inept, and ineffective against the Repubs. They don't mind Bush after all.
September was never a deadline. Tony Snow just recently made the point that it is merely a time for an updated report.
Reid? Milquetoast. Bush and Cheney enjoy laughing at him.
Boxer? She loves Lieberman.
Feinstein? Her husband has profited greatly from the war merchants: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20070701-9999-1n1difi.html
Levin? Clinton? Obama? ALL support attack on Iran.
Even the last stalwart Democratic senator in my view, Feingold, has caved. From a few days ago:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/17/2582/
Former Senator Mike Gravel has repeatedly described the parliamentary procedure the Dems could follow to reign in Bush.
His has been conspicuously ignored.
Ron Paul '08. I don't care if he's a libertarian. The Dems plain suck, because they are hypocritical in their support for the will of the citizenry. That's even worse than the Repukes. Since the Dems got both houses of Congress back, what has changed? SQUAT.
Of course, the real target is November '08. If Bush can string us along until then, he's home free -- and he can accuse his successor of "cutting and running."
what? they are lying to us??
Someone que the Twilight Zone music.
November? What year?
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Hey crooksandliars.com you really should stop using 'strikethrough' in your articles. It's hardly clever and isn't funny. Regarding the article I agree that whole "Wait until September" line was bullshit and these assholes will keep pushing the clock back until Bush's time in office is over.
My friends who are independents and non-neanderthal Republicans want to know what the Democrats' plan is for the catastrophe of Iraq. The only good answer I can give them is that we have a bus driver who has driven the bus off the road and killed many people in the process. We can't bring the dead back to life, and we may not be able to fix the bus. But the first thing we REALLY need to do is fire the driver.
The damage is done. Don't expect us to make a success of the shambles of a failed Republican foreign policy. It may take a few generations to get us out of this ugly mess that Bush is leaving us. But we have to get rid of the driver now!
Bush is against US.
The generals should, at this point, refuse to serve. I don't mean rebel. I mean retire, en masse. The war was won militarily long ago. The political mess left over -- the mess Cheney and Chimp were warned about before they drew us into it -- cannot be solved militarily. Repeat: the military cannot solve the political mess that Cheney and Chimp created. All that the military can do is sacrifice lives and limbs for nothing. Repeat: for nothing. The Commander in Chief (Cheney) refuses to admit that the Iraqi situation is unsolvable and that he was absolutely and totally wrong to invade. Cheney is accountable. Cheney is killing Americans. Cheney is maiming Americans. Cheney is destroying the lives of millions of Iraqis. It is time for the generals to stand up and tell this vicious pisant that they will not be a party to the mindless slaughter anymore.
(I'm not holding my breath. No general wants to be known as the guy who backed out of a war -- even a hopeless war that puts his troops in the middle of a 3-way civil war as the only common target of all factions. But any general officer who doesn't protest the bloody mess created by Cheney and his lunatic neoconservative brothers is complicit in the killing and bloodshed. Honor demands more.)
And then when January comes it will be April or May and then it will be......
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I don't think generals can just retire. They have to request it. The only other choice they have is to resign their commissions which means giving up their pay and benefits. I think that would be a very difficult thing for even a person of the highest integrity. We're talking about a person having 25+ years of service and in many cases over 30. They would lose their pension, medical benefits, etc. I could be wrong but I think that's what happens.
The US will leave iraq right around the time the oil/money dries up.
There's your ACTUAL withdrawal date.
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I guess plan B is to continue the failures of plan A.
AMERICAN ENERGY INDEPENDENCE
The only way...Oil & Gas wars...will become extinct is if we lead the world in renewable & sustainable resources....
The military industrial complex will find other 'reasons' to fight wars...but lets take away their biggest one...the geopolitical energy endgame...take that away...and there's one less 'reason'...
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Sh@dow, I do like the idea of 1 hour of silence. Please tell that to my wife.
The deciderer said it was November, it always was in November. It is thoughtcrime to think otherwise.
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Victory is always just around the corner when there is no strategy or objective.
let's see, they bought sept, how about november or better yet, let's put out january. we can keep this going just as long as we want. we only have to "fool" kansas and the trailer park dwellers and they're already on our team. they'll buy anything we're selling.
Bliss@16, I give dems until the first week of september to take a stand to withhold funding. If they don't it's clear the people need to take things into their own hands and out of theirs. If they don't that signals the ball's in our court entirely.
Bush in office for another 1 1/2 years is an unbearable thought. In the last few days he's made history out of FEMA to our peril, decided our bank accounts are his own private can of peanuts, dissent of war a crime, and shutting us up.
We're witnessing the last days of Caligula,the dangerous last grabs for power that can (and will) seal the exits of the auditorium unless we see immediate response of dems to snip off his brain stem.
Of course, always the benefit of the doubt. In my heart I think they are working furiously behind the scenes. In the meantime it is probably a good idea to think along the lines of self-help and doing it ourselves.
Young Republican @ 21:
yeah, no kidding.
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Bliss @ 4:
The Dems have nothing to do with this. This is the Adminstration back-peddling from its own deadline, not one stated by the Dems.
If you fail to understand that much, you really should reconsider making a fool of yourself. Perhaps I should have started my response with some similiar brilliance to your "war is unpredictable." Puppies are cute seems equally effective.
The top story in the Wash Post this morning will make you crazy. Seems the administration is now saying it is indeed above the law. How can you fight someone who feels like that? You can't.
This war and everything else they have done has been a disaster, so now rather than face the music and try to correct things, they basically say, What are you gonna do about it? No laws apply to us.
Bliss @ 4:
They should defund.
Assuming one has a functional intellect and education as well as the character to be honest with oneself, any objective analysis of this "war" leads to the inevitable conclusion that it is an unmitigated disaster on every front - political, economic, diplomatic, social, and human. (I would state the evidence from which I draw this conclusions, but you already know, and I don't have the time).
To support the continuation of this war is to support the continuation of nonsense and absurdity at the expense of the reputation, riches, and stature of our nation. It is all expense and no return.
Furthermore, the man currently holding the office of "The President of the United States" and his associates have demonstrated an astounding lack of skill, talent, intellect, or capability in his ability to execute the business of government. I believe his Resume may have been falsified and overstated.
In addition to incompetence, there is the added taint of brazen corruption and criminality throughout government, ranging from graft, fraud, and cronyism, to War Crimes,
Add to this the apparent willingness of the American people to support an unbridaled grab for money and power and equivalent loss of personal rights and economic stability.
The Dems should defund the war. Actually, they would be smart to defund any Department or Branch that didn't get into line with the will of the People. Strangle the Government? Fine. Let's see who has the power to strangle.
Congress to Executive and Judiciary: Sorry - no money!
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They be wiser to ask for at least one Friedman Unit (FU) of delay.
Dude @ 23:
I like the strikethroughs.
How about discussing this requested extension in terms of potential dead.
What are we averaging now...couple of hundred dead soldiers per month? So, August, September, October, November...gee...that's only 800 dead soldiers from now.
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Don't you get it? Leaving was NEVER part of the plan.
"The White House couldn’t give Republican suckers lawmakers any additional reasons to vote their consciences, so they implored them to keep filibustering until Petraeus could report back. But it was just the latest in a tragically long line of shams."
Maybe this would be a good time for that nuclear option the Republicans wanted back when the Democrats were the minority party fillisbustering. Or just let the Republicans fillibuster the will of the people all the way to the next election where the Democrats can pick up enough seats to obtain a fillibuster proof majority.
At this point, all Bush and the Repugnants care about is being able to blame the Democrats for losing the war. You can bet the rent money that if the war is still going on in January 2009, the Democrat who won the election will face only token oppostion in congress if he or she wants to immediately withdrawl all the troops. No stalling, no filibusters, just histrionics and theatrics.
But if the new president came up with a plan to actually win the war (I know, but just pretend for a second that it was possible) you can double down your bet that gridlock would again ensue. Suddenly Faux News and the rest of the Repugnant Noise Machine would be screaming "SUPPORT THE TROOPS. BRING THEM HOME!"
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pissedoffpatricia@45, And the exquisite pain that comes with that people will naturally duck under the radar and reflect back that no laws apply to us either.
Congress to Executive and Judiciary: Sorry - no money!
That's an excellent idea. If it doesn't happen we all have January. 1/20/09 that is.
sh@dow@47, you misunderstand entirely. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
The problem I see with the 'blame the democrats' is if the democrats succeed in bringing the troops home with as little egg on the republicans face as possible, who is to say the republicans would not win a majority and the president in 2008?
If that happens, I would expect ANOTHER unprovoked war with a peaceful nation.
Listen: the way i see it, there are other issues besides bringing the troops home, and the only way I see those issues reaching a conclusion I agree with is for the republicans to be totally destroyed as a political party. Like FDR's defeat of Hoover.
Republicans want to prolong the war? The american people voted them into office, and in a democracy we get what we voted for. I agree with the current democratic strategy.
How can we "turn the corner" when the corner is nowhere in sight?
Seele^ @ 58:
Uh, stop drinking the Kool-aid and join us here in the reality based community.
myiq2xu @ 60:
Instead of comparing me to Jim Jones's suicide cult, why not tell me where am I wrong in saying the republicans will just get us into another war if their party is not made to suffer?
Yeah but he doesn't mean this November... He means November 2008.
Needs more
cowbellFriedman Units!!!Dr. Acula @ 59:
But the corner is in sight. In fact, there are many corners to be turned.
We can turn into Pakistan, into Syria, into Iran. So many corners, so little time.
Cheney will take over the gov't and eliminate the '08 selection.
Bliss @ 4:
The Republicans have had it both ways for over a decade now. Claiming to be the party of 'morals' and 'rule of law' and then giving in to corruption, lies, sex and pork at epic levels. Perhaps the Republicans should support the troops by not fucking using them as pawns to advance their damned agenda. Or by making sure they have proper body armor. Or by making sure they have armored vehicles. Or by making sure they have the proper training. Or by making sure they get a break from the front every once in a while. Or by giving them decent medical care when they come back mangled from Bush's war.
We can afford to fucking build $200 million dollar bridges to Gravina island in Alaska, and $500 billion blowing up brown people, but we can't afford to keep our troops out of roach, mold and rat infested hospitals?
If the Republicans gave a shit about anything other than their cushy seats in the House and Senate and their VASTLY inflated salaries they would have voted with the Democrats to end the war. But they haven't. They' rather continue to demand that our sons and daughters DIE so that the they, and the President they gave a blank check to for this war can save face. So how about you kiss my Democrat ass with your bullshit condescension.
Seele@58,
"the only way I see those issues reaching a conclusion I agree with is for the republicans to be totally destroyed as a political party. Like FDR’s defeat of Hoover."
We had our bouts with rot in our country before with the paranoids. This time is a lot more worrisome, in that the republican party needs to be utterly destroyed and we're mindful of the fact that as long as they wait in the wings, their next inevitable onslaught will wipe our faces clean of Free anything for decades. Our citizen-based economy being wiped out is a setup for an easy attack by the gov't against us. Our house is a house of cards right about now.
Dr. Acula.
Close, but no cigar. (And, no, that is NOT a Monica Lewinsky reference.)
The MILITARY will take over the gov't and eliminate the '08 selection.
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I see alot of talk saying the 49 democrats in the senate should somehow get this veto proof majority, but no one is putting forward an idea on how to get those extra republicans to join the bring the troops home side!
Here is an idea: How about tell the republicans we will privatize social security, support a constitutional amendment to ban abortion, close public schools, and end Medicare and Medicaid, and remove the federal minimum wage standards?
That will get a dozen or so republicans to cross the line and support bringing the troops home! How many posters would support that plan? Ok, it's a trick question - no democrat would do it, but that what I am saying, ending the war is important but it isn't the only issue, and we cannot sacrifice everything just for one policy that is on track to end once the democrats win in a landslide in 2008.
"Like FDR's defeat of Hoover"?
FDR didn't beat Hoover, not alone. He had his cronies on Wall Street help him immensely.
Also, FDR wasn't a saint. Do a search on "Smedley Butler" and see what you find. I'm sure you won't be pleased. And, FDR would have gone along with the plan.
Anonymal @ 17:
The word "escalation" appears nowhere in this thread. It never appears in discussion of the constant on-going troop increases in Iraq that began immediately after the elections.
The comment I frequently make on sites is this: STOP USING THEIR FRAME! It's not a war, not a fucking football game, it is an escalation of the occupation. And it's been constantly increasing at a steady rate.
Immediately after the elections, they led everybody by initially stating they were going on the offensive against Shiites and "terrorists" by increasing the military presence in Baghdad proper an extra 12,000 soldiers. By January, they arrived at 22,000 additional troops
Wall Street Journal wrote:
… at which time added forces will probably be in the neighborhood of 40,000! As loyal Buushists use it, the definition of "surge" is "to increase suddenly". What's the definition of "escalation" again? Which one's closer to the reality of this situation? Just one more example of the public biting the hook Buushists set with deceptive semantics and framing, playing politics while avoiding discussion that they have no known actual policy of which to speak.
It is an ESCALATION. Everyone who opposes the war should refer to it as that and nothing else. Yes, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, I'm talking to you!
crazylove @ 67:
I agree, the people voted this guy in (despite a few hundred thousand fraudulent votes, remember 100 million voted in those elections) since that is what they wanted, this is the lesson the American people deserve to be taught (democrats included) with what happens when a republican controls a branch of government.
My apologies Seele, I was not comparing you to members of the People's Temple, I was referring to an expression that originated in the Bush White House (but based on the Guyana tragedy) where his followers who proved their loyalty were said to "drink the kool-aid." When I re-read your post, I see you are not one of the pod-people.
You are correct, a Republican president in 2009 would invade another country if not stopped by congress. But I can't imagine how the Republic Party could win unless the Democrats find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Of course, that's not impossible, they've done it before. Many, many times.
sh@dow @ 22:
Our rights are given to us by the Constitution and the blood of the people who have died defending it over the last two hundred and thirty years. God had nothing to do with it and that should be obvious by the way Bush has wiped his ass with the Constitution and ignored our Constitutionally Mandated rights. If some deity had anything to do with our rights, Bush wouldn't be able to just toss them out then, would he.
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when november comes the "serious" people will tell us to wait until 2984
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sh@dow @ 80:
All but the "under God" part was penned by a Christian Socialist.
Look it up. I ain't no teacher.
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sh@dow, one day is a good start.
Any real movement begins with development and organization and gains strength and momentum with time and effort. We can all agree civil disobedience en masse is an important tool to use, especially when this gets toe-to-toe. But...
getting power back to the states and the people in those states is like becoming carpenters or craftsmen starting from a whole shift of view and perspective.
We can't be hysterical if we truly wish to make lasting change.
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Sh@dow, now you're truly hysterical. Take a pill.
sh@dow,
Please keep GOD in the church. He/she/it has no place in politics, unless you want to live in a theocracy.
Bush claims god told him to invade Iraq. Yeah right.
That's what invoking god will get you.
God is speaking to me this morning, telling me that there is no such thing as God.
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sh@dow @ 84:
Keep religion where it belongs. Under a rock.
What you're not getting is that we feel the same. We hear you and all this extra is not new territory or necessary of all this vitriolic thrashing about.
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pretty much. Go back to church sh@dow, maybe they will remind you not to care about Earth because your reward is in heaven.
sh@dow @ 91:
What about men and women? Remember your second holy scripture allows us to make changes when necessary.
Go away, Sh@dow
Back on-topic, Bush might as well postpone the report to December 2008. That's what he wants.
The only way we can leave Iraq now is to impeach and remove Bush from office. That;s our only option now.
Right, sh@dow. All men are created equal.
I suppose our "Founding Fathers" decided that all black slaves in the fledgling USofA would be worth 3/5 of a white man and women had no standing as citizens because God told them to do so.
sh@dow, gee. Why has this thread taken such a turn into the fields and rocks. Not one person here is ignorant or not passionate about the constitution and the bill of rights. What the hell are you doing?
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Morality is not confusing issues. Spiraling off the face of the earth is causing yourself harm.
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We're already spent with elaborating.
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I think this stall tactic by the Republofascists will backfire on them. Hey, let them stall while their support crumbles into dust and their droid faithful desert them one by one. And then we' vote out every one of these evil people in November 2008 and give them the ass kicking of their lives.
Unfortunately, the ones that really pay the price in the interim are our military personnel, whose leaders think they can turn a turd into gold. Sorry, the troops aren't magicians.
sh@dow,
I appreciate that you are trying to make a difference. I also appreciate the idea of a general strike. I think for most Americans, the situation has not deteriorated to the point that a general strike will get much practical support. Continually calling for a general strike will not work until more people (on their own) reach the same conclusions as you have.
If I am right about this, do you have an alternative plan? I do. I propose to support the Democrats. They are the only realistic opposition to the Republicans. I think it is absolutely crucial that the Democrat majorities be increased and that Bush Jr. be replaced with a Democrat President (and I'll take any of the Democrats currently running rather than any of the Republicans).
We'll definitely maybe have a positive result in November or some other time to be determined.
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The November deadline was always there.
Whats my evidence?
Army reserve units mobilized with a 30 day notice are presently at places like FT Dix and Ft Bragg, where they are going thru 6 to 8 weeks of training before arriving in Iraq by September.
which means Units that were mobilized as "Part of the Surge" in May and June have not arrived yet. They are still in the train up mode.
The media failed to differentiate the difference between reserve units that were previously scheduled for an Iraq rotation vs units that were snatched up for the surge.
Scheduled reserve and national guard units are those that had at least a 6 months notice, where as "surge" units had 30 days or less.
The media reported the Republican talking point that all the "Surge Troops have arrived and are currently on the ground in Iraq"
The facts are "All the surge troops have not arrived".
They wont arrive until September.
They won't be there till then cuz they are still in their train up sessions.
Another facet of the troop deployment issue is that there are units that will be performing Temporary duty (TDY) in Iraq.
TDY is a temporary way to increase numbers on the ground for short periods of time. Support units usually get tasked to do this, and those units will be coming from Germany.
As TDY indicates the unit is based somewhere else, it won't count against any Ceilings on troop numbers in Iraq.
The facts suggest that the media LIED, or this administration lied to the media about the progress of the Surge. I say "lie" cuz Anybody with a modicum of understanding of mobilization, troop training requirements etc, could have gleaned this information from open source DOD websites, and press briefings..
Some may construe my comments as discussing "Troop Movements" which need to be hidden from the "Enemy".
However my intent is to note and observe that what this administration is doing is mis informing congress, the media, and the people about the surge. They are hiding the true amount of resources required to do the Job. They are acting like SAIC on a government contract , for they are extending deadlines, asking for incremental budget increases, with out tangible results for a project they underbidded in the first place.
The Democrats need to eliminate this incremental approach and force an everybody in or everybody out decision.
If its to be War, then declare war. Implement price controls, gas rations, eliminate war profiteering and the like. Implement the legal oversight roles that congress has in a declaration of war.
Legally treat Iraq as an occupied nation, and get on with the rebuilding with a modern "Marshall plan" .
If the republicans do not want to support a "Declaration of War". Then they need to retire gracefully, and bring our troops home.
Its fish or cut bait,or up the ante.
This venture under the auspices of the war powers act was an egregious abuse of executive power
In cajun terms, this administration is trying to boil a frog. You put the frog in the cold water and gradually raise the heat, he won't jump out, but if you boil the water then throw the frog in, expect to get splashed and burned.
America ain't no Bayou, and we are a whole lot smarter than a frog.
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Some underfuhrer at the Pentagon is suggesting Hillary Clinton is committing treason by insisting on some kind of time estimate. Yet without some idea, they'll just come up with one deadline after another.
Repugs put the dead back into DEADline.
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I agree
The only time sociopaths are ever honest to others is when they slip up, because either fear or anger gets the best of them for long enough that they drop their pretenses at playing th well-adjusted human being. In the moments before they realize they are revealing their inner thoughts, the truth escapes. When that happened to Bush, in a clipped and angry tone he defiantly and red-facedly declared:
"We are never going to leave Iraq... not so long as I am president!"
There it is: The WH war Plans A,B & C.
Did they happen to specify which November?
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