AFL-CIO Democratic Forum: Sparks Finally Fly - Hillary Gets Booed
The most heated moments from tonight's AFL-CIO forum came when the topic turned to Senator Barack Obama and his claim for the last debate that he would invade Pakistan to fight terrorism, even without permission from President Pervez Musharraf. Senator Chris Dodd was asked about his critical response to Obama's statements and reiterates his criticism and things get going from there. Obama stands his ground and jabs Dodd and Clinton for voting for the invasion of Iraq, then turning around and attacking him "for making sure we are on the right battlefield, and not the wrong battlefield in the war against terrorism," which drew huge applause from the audience.
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Senator Clinton once again attacked Obama on this issue which didn't go over well with the crowd...
Fristed
DUDE!!
I have watched the Hillary segment on Obama and Pakistan twice. The boos were not for her. They were either for Olbermann who went to Dodd for a response for for Dodd. I think the audience wanted Obama rather than Dodd to have a chance to respond.
It would be a good clip for you to put up so everyone can judge for themselves.
I couldn't believe it. Obama misquoted himself in his own defense. I don't believe he said (in the speech in question) "..work with Musharaff..." or "...continue to give him aid..." That's disappointing to me. Stick by your guns, Senator. I think the pundits may be right. He's a not ready for prime time player.
great. so the savour of the free world is another war monger. awesome. how about solving problems rather than blowing things up. when did that EVER solve anything?
TalkLeft @ 3:
Sorry for the typo, that should read: "They were either for Olbermann who went to Dodd for a response or for Dodd."
Meh, Obama lost me about a month ago. That being said, this mis-quote is understandable, and I think he gained some points with his statement about having a more open discourse concerning foreign policy issues.
yeah, obama just lost my vote.
all three make sense..it comes down to Pakistan w/nukes.If Pakistan falls to radical islamists..I think India..will be watching very closely.That doesn't mean that the radicals won't try though...as bad as Musharrif is...we still need him.
The Long Emergency
I think Obama is saying this to show he is not wishy washy on terrrorism....the down side is he is starting to look like a war monger.He should of thought this threw better before he opened his mouth.....not enough experience...maybe in 4 more..but it will be hard to get past this even in 4 years
Obama is saying all the right things, and I think the people will eventually catch up to him and vote him into the White House.
All the liberals who have resorted to "Where's Osama" to corner Bush and his supporters should be lining up behind Sen. Obama's quite reasonable stance that we shouldn't allow our nominal allies to provide safe haven to the very group that attacked us on 9/11. He isn't threatening Pakistan, he's telling them to live up to their commitment to fight terrorism.
Please Al!!! Please!!!
The producers of "American Idol" should sue. This is not "debate" but rather bad theater. Unfortunately, it's the only show in town at the moment. The only consolation is that the Republican version of the show is worse than this one. Why am I so suddenly depressed?
The Countries falling apart and Congress is in "Recess".
No doubt living it up at the vacation home.
Cut Throat Capitalism-To Each His Own
1 hour, 41 minutes ago
At least 1 million pounds of suspect Chinese seafood landed on American store shelves and dinner plates despite a Food and Drug Administration order that the shipments first be screened for banned drugs or chemicals, an Associated Press investigation found.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_he_me/seafood_safety_failures;...
Anyone see Hillary wink at Dodd after he finished his response? Those who vote for the war together stay together.
“... making sure we are on the right battlefield, and not the wrong battlefield in the war against terrorism,” which drew huge applause from the audience.
More fluff from Obama.
What is the right battlefield? Should this be a movable scene - going from country to country and invading now
and then?
What about confronting what it is that causes people to resort to this sort of violence?
What about confronting our own history? What about talking to people?
Fer all of the polish, that was one very stupid comment by Clinton.
Hillary- We want the truth, the whole truth and nothin' but the truth!
Our chances of dying or getting severely ill from toxic food are probably greater then getting killed by a terrorist.
My problem with Obama is that his record on the war and war funding is very much obvious. When the time came to defund the war or cut the defense bill he famously said "no one wants to play chicken with our troops". It is very easy for him to criticize the votes of Hillary and Chris Dodd when he was a state senator. I would have loved to see if he did the same as a member of the US senate. Only a few senators voted against the war authorization and none of them are running for president.
Poor Olby.... He was doing the equivalent of refereeing a fist fight... :( He did well though... :)
Brendan @ 12:
I don't think so.
Pakistan was the country that allowed us to do what we did in Afganistan - for better or worse.
Everybody knew about Musharraf but he was OK because he was on our side.
Now he has fallen out of favor with the Bushies, and Obama is piling on to show he's tough.
Obama lost me a long time ago - he reminds me of lieberman with his equivocating and wanting to play both sides of the issue.... kind of like hillary
Obama and Hillary just dont seem to move me. I dont believe Obama meant just to attack pakistan i think he meant if he knew for sure Osama was there he would get him.
L.A. Confidential @ 20:
Regardless, both are extremely low because we are vigilant against the potential threats.
Obama did NOT say he was going to invade Pakistan! he said he'd hit al-qaeda targets in Pakistan if Musharraf doesn't give permission (which he can't politically, and never will). please do not join the right wingers in spreading this falsehood!
Plastic poser Obama vs. dead Osama.
The fact that the audience cheered on more war worries me deeply for the collective Karma of America.
Why can't I see my comments?
[Because you were banned awhile back-Sitemonitor]
Railden @ 23:
Pakistan would not allow us to fly through their airspace.And told the US not to cross their borders.SO...in a very weird kind of way Obama's right
Pakistan did not allow anything to happen in Afgahnistan.Pakistan can't,international laws and al that
3-1 pitch, Dodd peers into Clinton for the signal, goes into the wind-up, Obama swings . . .GONE!
This is just pointless and pissy.
Did these tough guys protect the constitution last friday - say it louder - No. So you take anything remotely to do with the use of power that they say to actually mean something?
People, these are pretenders. I will say that Kucinich has taken steps (cheney impeachment) even if the democratic party treats him as if he had a stewie hygiene moment.
The rest are ...
Pretenders
Chip @ 26:
I wanna get killed by a jealous husband. When I'm about 85.
L.A. Confidential @ 20:
Yep.....that's more scary than anything else right now.
Obama was somewhat slippery when restating what he said. His original statement was clearly aimed at Musharraf.
Cowboy Obama is goin' in if Musharraf doesn't act the way we want him to. This is pure Bush.
Obama also offered that "the biggest threats to American security right now are in the North-West provinces of Pakistan.".
I think that statement should be subject to some debate.
Railden @ 36:
Yeah! What about Gay Marriage?
Wow. How sad. It seems the audience, the voters, still want to warmonger. Obama appealed to that & was applauded. Clinton suggested restraint & was booed. Ruthug voter? Democrat voter? there is no difference.
*shrug* it doesn't seem to matter who occupies the Whitehouse, the American people want blood.
=my depressed 2c
TalkLeft @ 6:
But you didn't change the headline....
Railden @ 39:
Sorry - I meant C&L didn't change the headline.
pathetic, simply pathetic (Dem aflcio debate). I happened to catch the Republican debate sunday morning and while I'm no Republican, I'd have to confess they looked considerably better.
BC @ 38:
A third of this country are fascists, although they would get mad if you called them that - they are also ignorant.
Remember the story of Julius Caesars slave who rode behind him whispering in his ear ... memento mori ... well, Americans dont. Americans just love to be lied to. You are the best. You are number one. You could kick anyones butt. Everyone else is just jealous. And they love hearing that while they work at walmart because the plant was closed and the jobs sent to China and their kid has no healthcare.
Bush is whispering in their ear - 'remember, you are rapture ready'. That, they remember.
It'll be interesting to see if the headline does change, because Hillary wasn't being booed. Railden is correct, they were booing Olberman for going to Dodd instead of Obama after Clinton.
ginger @ 41:
you must have a taste for shit!
Im not sure they were booing Hillary. Context anyone?
I think the audience was the real star here.Listen to the passion of these Americans who have had it up to their eyebrows with this rat fuck of a war.
Beautiful.
It is unfortunate that this media is so misleading about any and everything the people they dislike and refuse to take the corporate money have to say.
I salute all of them that are giving the finger to corporate America, because that is the very problem we now have with these greedy bastards controlling our country today.
We cannot afford to make the same mistakes like that again and shame on us if we do not demand accountability in our election process, as well as the polling data this same media that has lied about any and everything we are now suffering about.
Thank God we have an intelligent individual like Senator Obama, who is clearly able to articulate his point of view in spite of these greedy money grabbing thugs and I hope that American people know they are lying about the polls and demand free and fair polling data so that we are not mislead into yet another election with the wrong person in the job.
It is clear there are people who cannot stand the though of this very intelligent young vibrant black man, that they cannot find the kind of garbage they have looked for sense he announced he was running for the office of President of the United States, so now we are down to misleading and playing with his words, never mind the hundreds and thousands of American people who love support and respect this man, including a very huge group of white Americans all over this country, who simply disagree with their sick counterparts and are hungry for the change in this country that Senator Obama represents and unlike many running for office, it is clear to see the support of this man by the huge numbers of supporters that come to all of his events.
They will never turn the cameras on for all to see all why he has collected more money from $5. denotations then the entire team of candidates, except Senator Clinton who is 2nd to him and these are the ass holes that claim money trumps all.
I guess except when it is a black person that is leading.
I would simply be amidst if I did not mention the lousy treatment Senator Edwards is also getting from this team of right wing media thugs. He is also a very smart savey young man with a wonderful family, especially his wife Elizabeth. I just know they would represent this country well as Senator Dodd, Gov Richardson Congressman Dennis Kuccinich and pretty much all of them would be great in that office.
We need to support all of our candidates against the attacks of this vile media
tyree, are you saying or implying that the Dem afl-cio debate did not look pathetic? Now I'm no Republican, although I'll probably be accused of being one, by being honest, but did any of you see the GOP debate sunday, and can make a comparison?
[Wow ginger only two posts on C&L and in both of them you feel compelled to mention you are 'no Republican.' In my world, it's called protesting too much-Sitemonitor]
omglawl @ 45:
She's supported by Murdoch, voted for the war and will continue to take campaign money from large corporations?
Do you need more, because that's all I can come up with on short notice.
I'm really unimpressed by Obama's insistence on broadcasting a very unpleasant signal about America's future foreign in order to score a non-point about how we want to get bin Laden. Of course we want bin Laden. But what seems to be ignored in all of this is that American special forces have already been attacking the Pashtuns in the eastern region of Pakistan, often on spurious intelligence and causing huge civilian casualties. Pakistan's government needs to appear to the people of Pakistanis as having its own legitimacy and security agenda. By announcing to the world that we will forgo Pakistan's own sovereignty in order to make a frontal assault on the eastern region, Obama has cast the Pakistani government in an even less legitimate light as some kind of marionette above which America can just yank the strings whenever it wants. For God's sake that country has nuclear weapons. Why on earth would you destabilize it even more by saying that?
Clinton made a goof in front of the audience by saying that the President should not always say what he or she thinks although it's pretty clear to me she meant regarding what tactics America was going to pursue in the future.
To Editor... I don't know why I was banned but I can assure you it was a mistake. I contributed here on this forum for more than a year now. Could you please unban me?
[Yeah. You're unbanned-Sitemonitor]
They were booing Hillary. Quite clearly too.
ginger @ 48:
yeah i saw that sham , they all looked like a bunch of fuckheads !
On the Clock @ 17:
I sure did, Look at Dodd, Biden and Billary looking at Barack when he says that the american people deserve to know and about washington insiders. They are joined at the hip in there REAL dislike for Obama. That wink...Did it for me, NEVER will I vote for HER. She is getting a free pass now, but the times are a changing. Obama was clearly angry .
And YES they are clearly booing Hillary, it starts small (remember it's a stadium !)
I hope everyone here realizes that it doesn't matter who gets elected. The whole political system needs to be brought down.
I seem to be on the unintelligent blog tonight. I am no fan of war, don't get me wrong, but I liked the part about not keeping the discussion for Washington insiders. Both Dodd and Hillary are willing to invade wherever they like (if making deals with dictators is ineffective), but they aren't willing to say it out loud. This makes them better than 'bama? There must be something in the water you guys are drink'n.
Obama is correct that if we know that terrorists are in Pakistan and Musharraf wont do anything about it then we should go in there and kill all of them. Its just that you shoudlnt mention that openly in a Pres debate, thats what Hillary and the others are saying.
Big mistake of the night: Hillary referring to herself as a "girl". People are going to have enough trouble voting for a woman as Commander in Chief let alone a girl. She should have said "gal" instead, then the line would have worked. I just saw that line played on the local news too, thats going to turn off alot of people. Then to make matters worse she talked about using a broom and vacuum cleaner on Washington. *sigh* She's not going to win with that kind of girly talk.
kucinich has my vote and ill even give him money to run, untill i hear hes in some bodys pocket or kissing israels ass ill back him!
I didn't think the audience was booing Hillary either.
As for our choices for the next president and the big fucking mess we are in...what a depressing state.
Brendan @ 12:
Bingo.
tyree, well, at least you must agree that these Democratic presidential candidates are not helping their cause by appearing "debating" on TV. Perhaps they should lay low for a while -- for the good of the party.
Faulty Format
In this setting, you cannot simulate the correct atmosphere for which this kind of decision would be made. On a stage, in which your primary objective is to produce a "right" sounding answer, you cannot inject the considerations for making this kind of decision should it actually occur. The best thing you could do is confuse a applause for the right decision making process.
Hillary Clinton seems to be gathering allies. With the recent polls showing a widening lead over Barack Obama, you can bet some of the Democratic candidates will be running for vice president. Expect a lot of agreeing with Clinton in the upcoming debates.
Be very cautious about the host. MSNBC has a conservative agenda, and this leaked out after the debate. In a "who was telling the truth" post debate segment, MSNBC's David Shuster gave his opinion has fact the Democrats were wrong on their claim Bush does not care about New Orleans, and he has really screwed this country up. Shuster gave no references for his disclaimer so what he said falls in the category of just another opinion.
Joseph
i cant believe their are still folks who believe all that bullshit in the 911 commishon report !
Ali @ 60:
She got booed but good. And she had it coming as she talked negative and talked down to the crowd. She got booed.
guys, I have to say I'm fairly disappointed with all of you. Obama isn't talkinga bout invading a whole country. He is talking about military strikes against a person that killed 3,000 New Yorkers. Hillary lost my vote for authorizing the war with Iraq. Obama just gained my vote.
ginger @ 62:
you want to see whats in the pot? you got to open the lid and look in!
Obama is the only intelligence I see in the room.
I find this very intresting, but it's going to happen more and more, with hillary / obama duking it out. Edwards is pretty smart on this sitting back and letting them have at it, and his poll numbers are still very strong, I think there wont be a clear cut canidate untill march next year, at this rate.
Obama said originally and tonight that he expects Musharraf to deal with terrorists in Waziristan (sp?), BUT if Pervez cannot or will not do so, then the U.S. reserves the right to strike in its own interest. This would not be another scenario of Iraq as there are people in that region that actually attacked us and who plan to do it again.
Listen again...
Clinton ends with "..we don't need that right now" before she finishes saying that Olberman goes "Senator Dodd, I, I owe Senator Dodd.." the rumble begins while Olberman said Senator Dodd and then the loud booing comes when he went to Dodd instead of Obama.
Also - "Clinton made a goof in front of the audience by saying that the President should not always say what he or she thinks.." No, she said "when you're running for President," not when you're the President.
sithson, Edwards' numbers strong? are you kidding. He was once way ahead in Iowa, where he's been spending all his time and money, and now he's back to being in about a tie with Hillary and Obama. Edwars is going down down down.
ginger @ 72:
Clearly he's still a contender. He is having difficulty running a national campaign at this point, but his targeted approach to Iowa just may pay off . . . the way it did for Kerry in '04.
wtf Hillary? someone who is running for prez shouldn't say "blah blah blah"? is this your only realy agenda? getting into office? boo!
Musharaff is a terrorist. He hides KHAN, their nuclear scientist, who gave IRAN nuclear secrets and know how. The PAKS have been protecting Bin Laden for years. DODD is a career Democrat-politico like robot Hilary. Obama has real balls to tellit like it is. The PAKS havebeen the most worthless bunch of pricks in the so called war on terror.
It is this disgusting, lying ass media that is misleading American people as to what this man really said to create this kind of mess.
They are angry that most Americans will be watching the cartoons, rather then the republicans who will be next to so call debate.
They will not except the fact that NO REPUBLICAN IS GOING TO, NOT ONLY WIN THE JOB OF PRESIDENT, BUT NONE WILL WIN SENATE OR CONGRESS.
That is how very sick and tired of these bastards, we are.
Pakistan has to win this fight. It's their country. If we weaken their government by invading and it falls, who's going to secure the nukes? Anyone know? You think occupying Iraq is bad, wait till will have to occupy Pakistan as well....
ginger @ 72:
Hey ginger..have you caught anythin yet?Cause you've been trolling for awhile now.
SOMERSET @ 75:
Pakistan is a very tough situation. Musharraf is stuck between the rock and a hard place of maintaining his power to remain the U.S.'s ally in that country and the HUGE radical population there.
I find it interesting that you say Obama lacks courage when he is currently being attacked by his peers for being willing to answer hypotheticals. I think he has been very forthright.
Where all these people are joined at the hip with the wanker in the white house relates to the wanker's infamous remark, "The American Way of Life is non-negotiable." If your way of life is non-negotiable, you are simply a living fossil. Rather than foster a community of human beings that are willing to adapt to the changing needs of the planet and its inhabitants, of all kinds, Americans wage resource war.
I see Obama doesn't have clue one that it is this "feature" of the "American Way of Life" that is the number one problem faced by countless numbers of our planetary brethren.
Bran @ 77:
That is a very important point as well.
Olddude @ 80:
I honestly believe that he does understand that, and yet, to be perceived as being experienced and presidential, he has to talk tough . . . rather hawkish. I think it's a political necessity, and I don't think he's been particularly disingenuous in citing particularly hawk-worthy scenarios. Obviously I am a supporter though.
BlueKnuckle @ 70:
and your proof of that is what ? the bush government who told you it was al;kida
you dont think all thoes union members setting in that aduience were all democrats do you? most probably half of them vote republican every time!
I don't know what they booed. Clinton is right. I'm sick and tired of people playing the sheriff and saying we should bomb this, we should bomb that.
Now wait just a goddamned minute... , all this bla bla bla ... "most important time in our country in regards of foreign policy..." (Obama) -- bla bla bla .... and no F*cking mention of AIPAC - ADL or israel period.
Just who the fuck is calling the shots in foreign policy? -- Do I have to shove your fucking noses in the shit AIPAC has smeared across our fucking congress?
Im leaving this fucking god-damned idiotic country
[Deleted. More postings of this type might see you leaving this site as well, but not voluntarily-Sitemonitor]
I still support Obama but I'm scratching my head about his Pakistan comments. Pakistan is such a fragile state at this point, and if the masses had their way, it would turn into fundalmentalist-type state. I was left with the impression that Obama didn;t apreciate the complexity of the situation in Pakistan. Though I hate to admit it, Hillary's comments on Pakistan were right on the mark. The country has the bomb. We freak out about Iran getting the bomb in 10 years. Pakistan is one heartbeat away from the bomb falling into the wrong hands.
americahatesearth @ 86:
We'll all be the poorer for your departure, I'm sure.
Hillary Clinton was pitch-perfect and did an outstanding job.
unfrozencaveman @ 87:
Stop scratching your dead and think. Barack said to take out Bin Laden. You know the man who orchestrated 9/11. Barack didn't say we are starting a war !! Pakistan is looking for him too.. Don't drink the kool aid. Watch the speech on C span
Why is it that Obama CAN'T speak freely about Pakistan without causing "instability" to it, but Hillary CAN speak freely about Iraq without causing instability to it? (ie. her entire party are talking about withdrawal every chance they can get, and when the Bush admin warns they may aggravate the situation there, her entire party hotly responds that political debate should not be suppressed due to Whitehouse "scare tactics")
So are we saying that only Pakistanis watch TV and Iraqis don't? How does this selective hearing work? It's hypocrisy.
Ginger are you blind?
pathetic, simply pathetic (Dem aflcio debate). I happened to catch the Republican debate sunday morning and while I’m no Republican, I’d have to confess they looked considerably better.
And dumb
tyree, well, at least you must agree that these Democratic presidential candidates are not helping their cause by appearing “debating” on TV. Perhaps they should lay low for a while — for the good of the party.
Two strikes. Going for a third?
Ciara, Paris France @ 90:
lol -- why hasnt the FBI filed any charges against OBL? - Do you know he has openly said that he had nothing to do with that?
what proof do you or the FBI have that HE is responsible for 911??? Show me the money baby! -- Show me the proof and I'll STFU. -- [Deleted. We don't go there here-Sitemonitor]
I swear if you show solid proof I will never post here EVER again. Until then --- deal with me and the truth.
America attacked itself to let things take the "SHEEPLE" course.
I bet you got NOTHING to show me.
unfrozencaveman @ 87:
Musharraf's not going to be there forever (unless he appoints himself dictator-for-life again) and frankly he hasn't been much of an ally. He's playing both sides and winking at fundamentalist groups. He's only concerned about not being assassinated himself and will do whatever he needs to do to prevent that from happening, e.g. granting autonomy to al-Qaeda in the hinterlands.
Frankly I'd prefer a policy of isolation toward all the undemocratic and hostile Islamic countries above all else, but if Musharraf persists to bullshit us we should take it on ourselves to root out al-Qaeda in northern Pakistan, an area which doesn't recognize the national government's authority anyway, and put the heat on the people who really attacked us on 9/11. No invasion, no occupation.
And you supporters of Hillary applauding her "restraint," keep in mind this is the same candidate who pledged "swift retaliation" as her first move in the event of a future terror attack, and who said nothing as her husband bombed the shit out of Iraq for eight years.
TalkLeft @ 3:
I was at the event, and I can assure you I was booing her. People are sick of the government deciding what is best behind closed doors. Transparency is in for '08.
tyree @ 83:
I'll take Osama's word for it, along with the rest of his organization. If the Bush administration were that conspiratorial and capable, they'd have made Hussein responsible.
where the #%&* is gore...he is starting to get on my nerves...... freaking brainiac....
Feed back from the audience about the boo was their protest against the idea of not being up front and straight with the public.
They said that we have had 6 plus years of secrets and they are sick of it.
americahatesearth @ 86:
.Have a nice Day
All I know is that the "media" owes it to us all to play and re-play that clip with the booing so the American people can decide. Hell, they put Dean's scream on repeat. Put it on loop CNN.
L.A. Confidential @ 20:
From bridge collasping, steam pipe explosion, levee breaking, and no insurance for emergency surgery.
We may end up doing more to ourselves from paranoia of this terrorist threat, than the terrorist can do to us.
mudshark @ 100:
stroke Sharon's belly for me in the vegetable ward, would ya?
paranoia @ 102:
It's a difficult point of view to sell, but you're right: our fear of a terrorist attack is highly disproportional. I've heard it said that you're more likely to be struck by lightning.
BlueKnuckle @ 97:
you werent listening osama said he didnt do it , seems to me you only listen to bush!
I always thought that was the idea behind it ...
I don't think Hillary has a chance because she won get the female vote (most women don't vote anyway) and dare I say it; men are intimidated by a female boss. Barack is is a black man and racism is alive and well. Just my opinion but a white Christian male will take the oath of office. It would surprise me if I'm wrong and I hope I am, but the odds are in my favor.
at least we had some actual debate here, that didn't seem like scripted loops that the repugs usually put on.
we're going *poof* as a superpower very quickly. brace yourselves. the end of this nation is upon us.
[Buh Bye-Sitemonitor]
This is my first C&L comment, because I was so moved by what a tool Hillary Clinton is. God help you all if that corporate shill gets the nomination. Mark my words, she'll represent women about as well as Clarence Thomas represents blacks. Please vote third party, ALL these candidates are corporate shills. Obama just hasn't been as corrupted. Yet.
tyree @ 105:
you werent listening osama said he didnt do it , seems to me you only listen to bush!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11%2C_2001...
He's actually made several conflicting statements about his responsibility. If he and his organization claim credit for it, that's good enough for me.
correct me if im wrong blueknuckle but didnt bush and chenny both blame sadam hussain for participateing in 911?
tyree @ 105:
I am aware of this argument. I can't speak or understand arabic languages. I have to take someone else's word. It may true either way.
My question stands, though. If that theory is correct, why not make Hussein guilty. It would make everything make a LOT more sense.
[Deleted. Conspiracy theory]
Brendan @ 112:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11%2C_2001...
He's actually made several conflicting statements about his responsibility. If he and his organization claim credit for it, that's good enough for me.
so then you think its worth fighting in afganistan then ?
Geez, if only Hillary and Obama spent half as much time being congressional leaders by publicly lambasting and trying to prevent the laws this admin tries to pass (like the FISA fiasco) as they do trying to court the wingnuts. But no, they are strangely silent on those matters, and only seem to open up when talking about how willing they are to adopt the Repub talking points.
Piss on the base and try to grab those 25%ers
tyree @ 113:
Actually no. Cheney came the closest in assuring us of a close operational relationship between Saddam and al Qaeda. That whole Prague scenario. Bush has made a consistent habit of juxtaposing the two, but he's never actually said Saddam directed the attacks. Per "Why We Fight" et al, many people have been justifiably misled. Their combination of the two was certainly intentional and deceptive.
If I had to guess, and that' what I'm doing, about why the FBI has never indicted bin Laden for 9/11, it would be because of the Bush administration strict adherence to a policy (as opposed to Clinton) that the attack was an act of war and NOT a criminal act. It's a major legal distinction. Bush and friends used that line on Clinton quite a bit (as did Fox News in the now famous interview bw Clinton and Wallace), that he improperly and incompetently treated terrorism like a law enforcement issue.
I cannot confirm the truth of that, but based on all they've said and done, it makes sense.
BlueKnuckle @ 118:
seems to me like i saw bush saying sadam was in it up to his neck and financed alkida to do the job, and cheny defanatly said sadam was in on the attack, why do you think half of americans believed sadam was in on it if it wasnt for bush cheny?
Watching the rebroadcast. Hillary was clearly booed.
Tyree, I have to go to bed. It's late on the East Coast. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to say that while I disagree with you, I'm not lax about the sacrifice and nobility of military service, including yours. We do need a military and I think we agree that it should be used predominantly for defense, as opposed to nation-building, police actions, preemption etc. Iraq was wrong. I remain confident that our intervention in Afghanistan was justified, and that it would have been much more successful by now had Bush not stolen troops, funds, and dedication from it to send it to Iraq. Look at what we've accomplished with 11,000 troops. Just imagine if we'd done it right.
djr @ 74:
With all due respect to my friends from Illinois (I just wanted to say that...) the rumble in the audience begins when Clinton says someone running for president shouldn't always say what they think. The audience members didn't seem to take to her "sense of expediency."
Though Obama held his own (including by misquoting himself--which he may later have to come back and correct, but at least in the middle of the argument he had a comeback...a trick Repugs have been employing forever), I wasn't impressed with any of these war-mongering, corporate shills.
I'm with Tyree. Kucinich has my vote. For now.
tyree @ 120:
One poll in 2003 had the number at seventy percent that believed it. I totally think the connection is criminal, but I've never heard them say emphatically that Iraq did it. they just worked very hard at making it SOUND like they had said it. I read. I was never duped.
[...] AFL-CIO Democratic Forum: Sparks Finally Fly - Hillary Gets Booed Though I don’t think Obama entirely understands Musharraf (or maybe he is choosing his words a little too carefully), Dodd and Clinton’s ideas about Musharraf and his regime are hilariously off base. Don’t they know Musharraf’s government backed Al-Qaeda and the Taliban until about Septmeber 12, 2001? Or that the Taliban was created in Pakistan and comprised largely by either Pakistanis themselves or Afghans trained in Pakistan? No, Pakistan should not be unilaterally attacked but it should not be seen as some sort of saving grace who is watchful of American, Afghan, Iraqi or any other interests aside from Pakistani. [...]
BlueKnuckle @ 123:
okay im tired myself , but did you ever wonder how bush had troops into afganistan in only a matter of a few weeks and it took his old man seven months to get to kuwait? he had them allready on station ready to go!
The reason the media sells Hillary Clinton and Obama so hard is because they are the only people that could energize the *right-wing* base to get out and vote at this point. They're the only ones that could lose.
The fact that they're both the most DLC, corporate, Republican lite candidates in the race makes them a win/win proposition for Corporate America. Even if they weren't to stir up enough of the racists or Clinton-hating psychos on the right-- even if they won-- we'd essentially have what we have now.
Yeah, Biden got booed later on as well.
Kucinich was the winner, but no doubt the MSM will ignore the fact. He got the biggest applause and laughs of the night. Is so fucking depressing to know that, despite the fact that I think most Americans would actually find his views very moderate, but dozens of factors, from the Democrats' shift to the right, to the corporate-owned medias attempts to marginalize him, have led the uninformed masses to view him as some sort of far-left, unelectable kook.
(Oh, I'm watching the rerun right now, and I just love how Obama is pandering to the Lou Dobbs' and Glenn Becks' of the world when it comes to immigration: "Get to the back of the line!! Learn English!! Fuckin' Mexicans!!" [Okay, I'm paraphrasing ;)])
122 RobertD Says:
Amen bro. Dennis is the only forthright candidate out there. I've only ever contributed to him.
paranoia @ 101:
"May?"
I would add civil liberties, open governance and the reverence for our Constitution as casualties of our paranoia. Whatever happened on Sept. 11, those in our own country who wanted to control us by preying upon our fears have achieved nothing but success. We'll now give up everything we have in the name of "safety." And yet I don't even feel safe writing this.
What was that Benjamin Franklin quote (that I will certainly mangle)?--Those who give up their freedoms in the name of security achieve neither?
(I haven't read the comments to know if someone brought this up previously, if so, sorry) What is Senator Dodd doing quoting the "White Limbaugh" (tm) ???? At least he quoted Rush when it was one of the rare times that the "White Limbaugh" (tm) actually said something true!!!! (StanNote (tm) : all lying-type propaganda artists have to occasionally say something that's true, so they can pass off their massive amounts of fiction off to their brainwashed)
(it was the like "words mean things" that Dodd plagairized)
Dennis Kucinich is the obvious leader here, and, YOU know it.
Its pretty clean Hillary is going to blow it. She will not get the nomination.
Obama, so far he sounds like a broken record. He just gets a little louder with the same one liners. I've seen no indication of original thought.
Edwards....maybe. He needs to "come alive", but every time he tries he says something goofy.
Dodd.....blaaaah. Just another "politician". An "also ran".
Gravel...?
Jesse @ 127:
And yet isn't it telling that 3 of those miners trapped in Utah right now are--Mexican nationals??? Off-topic, perhaps, but it goes to what you're saying.
Wouldn't it be great if Iowans saw through the BS and secrecy of the last 6 1/2 years (plus) and said, "Enough," and handed it to Kucinich?
That Kucinich joke/truth about going to China will be remembered as a classic. :-)
RobertD @ 133:
[And yet isn't it telling that 3 of those miners trapped in Utah right now are--Mexican nationals???]
Bet they were the Lowest paid.
I knew it wouldn't take Obama long to let slip his arrogance and inexperience. But all in the same week? Sweet. Go Hilary!
[And yet isn't it telling that 3 of those miners trapped in Utah right now are--Mexican nationals???]
Bet they were the Lowest paid.
Isn't it racist to suggest that they were the lowest paid because they're mexican? What do you want? That they should become citizens? Then their employers would be legally obligated to pay them a fair wage equal to their white skinned counterparts and then their low-wage-worker appeal would vanish and then you wouldn't be talking about them at all.
Dodd - "We should be very carefull about the language we use, ... "
And respectfully Senator Dodd, we should be very careful about who we're gonna plagaurize.
SpendThrift @ 137:
Isn't it racist to suggest that they were the lowest paid because they're mexican? What do you want? That they should become citizens? Then their employers would be legally obligated to pay them a fair wage equal to their white skinned counterparts and then their low-wage-worker appeal would vanish and then you wouldn't be talking about them at all.
What do I want? I want to see a green card or a deportation order. Has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with National citizenship.
SpendThrift @ 137:
No. Who do you suggest is being slammed with an assumption of that kind? The Mexicans?
SpendThrift @ 136:
Sorry, but Hillary standing up for lobbyists at YearlyKos and getting humiliated at an AFL-CIO debate will be much more damning in the long run than suggesting we should go after al-Qaeda, wherever they are.
She's counting on support from talking-point belchers so she can scare the country into voting Republican next November.
O-Bomb-A just keeps digging his hole deeper.
Brendan @ 141:
Yeah she's not for worker people. She's not against the war enough. Her healthcare "plan" is simply not enough and more and more she looks like just another silly old bat you run into at the super market.
Brendan @ 141:
If PETA and Greenpeace had lobbyists would you feel the same?
LMAO
The future is not looking very bright. It seems like anything we do now will create more terrorists. And I don't buy the argument that taking out Osama will somehow end or even really damage Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is an ideology and we keep helping it spread by putting more fuel on the fire. I am reminded of the guy who pushes the red button with a "Don't push" sign above it... You just have to wonder how many of the Iraqi kids, teenagers and young adults who have lost their loved ones will grow up and embrace this way of thinking. What we gain from taking out Osama in some rural part of Pakistan is negligible compared to the number of young men who are willing to step up and take his place afterwards. Sure we'll please the constituents for a little bit, but the real problems will still be there.
This so called president has gotten us stuck in one heck of a Chinese finger puzzle. I believe energy independence is the only real solution to this mess. We should be focusing towards weaning off oil almost completely within 10 years; not a pathetic 35mpg average by 2020.
Oh, and Chris Matthews, in his post-debate diatribe, called Hillary "majestic." Hahahahaha. This is guy needs to go back on his medication. He's either bi-polar or schizophrenic.
I wonder if Hillary realizes she's a bottle of Aqua Velva and a whole lot of brow-furrowing away from making Little Chris Matthews stand at attention?
Salmineo @ 143:
It sounds like you want her to be god. Is this a result of having an actual hell-spawn in the office for the last 6 years? Extremists always paint themselves in a corner. It's almost like you actually offer the enemy the brush and can of paint.
Salmineo @ 139:
What do I want? I want to see a green card or a deportation order. Has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with National citizenship.
I'm not sure where everyone is going with this, but my comment was meant as a statement of support--for the Mexicans, not Lou Dobbs. Just for the record.
SpendThrift @ 144:
There should be no Corporate or "for profit" organizations allowed to lobby. Only non-profit or individual citizens seeking redress of government and certainly NO foriegn nations of nationals ever.
As well, all elections should be 100% funded by tax money and never private money. After leaving office, no former politician should ever have any income, of any kind, beyond 15% of total government pention.
Violations should be mandetory 15 years and one day in solitary confinment without the possiblility of parol.
RobertD @ 148:
I'm not sure where everyone is going with this, but my comment was meant as a statement of support--for the Mexicans, not Lou Dobbs. Just for the record.
I understand. I am against illegal imigration....from any country....ever.
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