Islamists are not going to take over the world
By Steve Benen Sunday Aug 12, 2007 6:30pmAfter noting the oddities of Roger L. Simon’s latest piece on why the “War against Islamofascism” leads him to support gay marriage, Glenn Greenwald raises an important point that I think often goes overlooked.
Every now and then, it is worth noting that substantial portions of the right-wing political movement in the United States — the Pajamas Media/right-wing-blogosphere/Fox News/Michelle Malkin/Rush-Limbaugh-listener strain — actually believe that Islamists are going to take over the U.S. and impose sharia law on all of us. And then we will have to be Muslims and “our women” will be forced into burkas and there will be no more music or gay bars or churches or blogs. This is an actual fear that they have — not a theoretical fear but one that is pressing, urgent, at the forefront of their worldview.
And their key political beliefs — from Iraq to Iran to executive power and surveillance theories at home — are animated by the belief that all of this is going to happen. The Republican presidential primary is, for much of the “base,” a search for who will be the toughest and strongest in protecting us from the Islamic invasion — a term that is not figurative or symbolic, but literal: the formidable effort by Islamic radicals to invade the U.S. and take over our institutions and dismantle our government and force us to submit to Islamic rule or else be killed.
Glenn couldn’t be more correct about this. I read quite a few conservative blogs every day for one of my other gigs, and I’ve found that this belief is pervasive in shaping the far-right worldview. The fear of a global Islamic takeover buttresses their opinions about almost everything. When reading far-right sites, it’s something to keep in mind.
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"Islamists are not going to take over the world".
No shit.
...
Ever see the 1984 movie "Red Dawn"??? The movie seriously presented a land invasion of the continental united states by CUBA.
Same shite, different decade.
These wingnut suburban paranoids are constantly convinced the entire world is about to fall apart. It's some toxic combination of subconscious awareness that their family wealth came from raping Native Americans and exploiting African Americans mixed with hyper-paranoid Christian persecution complex (they came for Jesus, so they'll come for ME!).
What sad, pathetic people republicans are.
It's not just far right blogs, but far right people.
I interact daily with enough of them that I really don't have a need to read their blogs. What none of them understand is- to a degree, they are the same as the islamo-facists.
It's the same world view, even the same "God" - just a different interpretation..
If right-wingers didn't have something to crap their pants over every day, they'd start thinking. That's why they're fed so much fear by the right-wing media and the talking heads - because fear supplants reason.
The Christofascists within our own borders pose a greater threat to the republic than the Islamfascists outside our borders.
baby jesus does not want to take over the world
baby jesus already controls enough sheep to control the US
my god, they're truly nuts. How can they be so naive and stupid?
Al Qaeda is well on their way to completing their SECOND ark and you don't think they threaten our nations' territorial integrity?
Wake up, the barbarians are at the gate.
-GSD
At the risk of being called a troll, which I am not, can you please explain more specifically why you think we are not at risk from some form of Islamic revolution?
Isn't Islam the fastest growing religion? Doesn't it appeal to many of the same kinds of people that evangelical Christianity might appeal to? Aren't countries like Saudi Arabia/Pakistan/Iraq, Syria/Palestine in conjunction with our own stupidity fueling Islamic violent separatist movements?
My concern is that in our desire to support and encourage diversity that we do self-censor ourselves and others and so we do fail to rationally discuss the issues.
When I look at incidents like the Mohammed Cartoons or even the installation of foot washing devices in colleges and public schools in the United States, I am struck by how we are not even allowed to discuss these issues without being called racists.
So without disputing your thesis that we will not be overrun by Islamists, can you explain why the rightwing bloggers are completely out in uh, right field, and why progressive liberals shouldn't even discuss these things?
Or, please do present the boundaries on such discussions that make them acceptable.
I think Glenn Greenwald is a fantastic author and pundit, but I think both you and Glenn are making a false appeal to morality and using that to cast any conversation of this is disparaging terms.
What a bunch of scaredy cats! With that worldview, I assume they think that the entire Federal budget should be spent on War................. sorry, defense.
It's a wonder that Denmark and Norway are still around, given alternative budgeting.................... hippies, who needs them.
What would happen if we withdrew our troops in Iraq and let the AQ nut balls have Iraq? Would they consider it a victory as the W, Rove and Co suggest?
... Sadly, Christopher Hitchens shares the same mentality
Jim @ 2:
Don't forget that they had Soviet backing.
I think it's about time for a sequel: "Green Dawn". Let's say, uh, Syria invades West Virginia, with the backing of Iran. Yeah, that should do it.
There is by the way, a related and very interesting article about "Islamic science" at Salon today.
The religious state of Islamic science
Turkish-American physicist Taner Edis explains why science in Muslim lands remains stuck in the past -- and why the Golden Age of Mesopotamia wasn't so golden after all.
I find a lot of parallels between Islamic Science and Creationism. But also similar parallels between Islamic Science and "Feminist Science" in which our modern feminists feel free to cast entire portions of science out the window (genetics, biology, child psychology, evolutionary psychology) if those sciences present results that do not favor feminist thoughts. In return modern feminists posits an unscientific, untestable, unfalsifiable theory of societal control: the patriarchy and gives it demonic like abilities.
If feminism can successfully tell us that though young girls in high school are known to be mean to each other but that grown women are not capable of significant violence against men, and if Evangelicals can do as well as they have in fighting evolution, and if conservatives can get the doubts they have raised wrt global warming as they have, then I do think it is reasonable that various Islamic pieces of "bad science" can become entrenched and/or demand their fair hearing in the name of diversity.
I think it is reasonable to have a discussion to address issues like this.
OMG, if Islamofascists took over, they'd likely outlaw abortion, restrict access to birth control, promote abstinence, set up huge mega-mosques with TV channels, establish religious schools and universities, ensure that only the faithful could be elected to political office, institute some kind of school prayer, ban Hindus from praying in Congress, put copies of the Koran in courthouses, set up faith-based charities, demonize followers of other religions as fanatics, facilitate programs to indoctrinate the military in religious belief, set up billboards to remind the faithful of their obligations, persecute homosexuals, permit torture, and promote a theology that believed in the coming apocalypse.
And our sports teams would have to pray before games!
Wow, I really hope that doesn't happen cause it would be waaaay creepy.
In this piece you mention Malkin's name. Why do you give this piece of scum any mention at all? I know it wasn't your piece, but this little c**t doesn't deserve to even be mentioned. She's nothing more than a a hot face and body that the lonely neocons rub one out to. Quit putting Malkin name on anything. She enjoys the publicity regardless of the vileness of her writings. She lives for this shit. She wants he name posted on blogs like this.
Oh, I forgot...and they'd prolly institute the death penalty too.
How barbaric!
and let's hope the asshole "compassionate"christian reich does not either.
Fools! It's Buddhists who are planning to take over the world. Beware the March of Mellow! ;)
coincidentally just hours before...
"Minneapolis and St. Paul have been deeply affected by the large number of Somali and Hmong immigrants who have made the Twin Cities metropolitan area their home. Their occasionally disturbing cultural practices and the related social costs are rarely discussed." http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2007/08/018197.php
except on right wing blogs. ad nauseum
Well, at least we're getting to the heart of it now. It's not about freedom. It's about WHICH fascist religion will dominate global politics.
What flavor of toxic gas would you like?
When people obsess over the meaning of 9/11, they never seem to consider what an anomaly it was.
For the terrorists, it was a grand slam home run several times over. The amount destruction they caused can never be repeated again, because they had be advantages that they will never have again.
The first is the giant loophole in the way we handled airplane hijackings. Before 9/11, all hijackers wanted was to divert the plane to another destination and/or hold hostages, so the best way to save lives was to cooperate. Unfortunately, this was exactly the wrong strategy with the 9/11 hijackers. This terrorist advantage was short lived. Tellingly, by the fourth hijacked flight, the terrorists lost this advantage, because the passengers had already learned about the previous flights and they were no longer cooperating.
The second advantage was the unexpected collapse of the twin towers. The terrorists did not plan that, they just were extremely lucky. And the collapse of the towers greatly increased the symbolism of the attack, and its visceral effect on the US.
Unfortunately, instead of seeing the attacks for the anomaly that they were, and combating terrorism with a clear and calm head, our right wing comrades have worked themselves into a stumbling and dangerous panic.
Not that I want to promote this loon, but http://[Link broken-Sitemonitor] is a haven of hatred. Warning... This guy is for real and he believes he/we must kill every single last muslim to save America and the west... I kid you not. This man is off his
rockerhigh-chair...Uh, I thought it wuz commies that were gonna bury us.
War against Islamofascism, who came up with that phrase anyway ?
Oh and did anyone hear that karl (the Rat ) rove is resigning ? Might be a rumor, I'm not sure yet.
churl @ 24:
They already did. They buried you in debt.
crazy train @ 25:
Oy, crazy train, you have to get out more often.
OK.... I get it now... The right and the the evangelical community is filled with paranoid nuts.... Certifiable friggin nuts....
I see it as a warning to all the other nations of the world not to let your educational systems fall into disaray lest you find yourself with a generation of ill educated folk who falls for the latest snake oil salemen and their spin....... Jus sayin.....JD
As someone who had to duck & cover--when the Russians actually HAD nukes--GWOT = BS!
Not while Chuck Norris is still alive.
(Chuck Norris is currently suing NBC, claiming Law and Order are trademarked names for his left and right legs.)
Uh yeah! Look up the points of fascism, we are like 16 for 16! Islamofascists? Where is the nine eleven conspirator Osama? regards
It looks like "some" are still "catapulting the propaganda"...
At this point the american people are going to trust
a constitutional lawyer
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
OVER
/Fox News/Michelle Malkin/Rush-Limbaugh
Could be why their viewership and listen ratings ARE LOW.
just like over The last 7 years... we can learn a great deal
from REAL white house briefing journalist
also an expert Corporate Crime.
http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.commondreams...
Isn't this stupid? I also read a number of right wing blogs and this is a frequent topic of conversation.
I guess Islamofascists are somehow going to cross Europe and the Atlantic Ocean using their massive Navies with air support from their massive Air Forces (that we probably sold to their governments) and launch some sort of ground invasion of the US. It's outlandish and stupid and when pressed for details they can almost never give even a semi-plausible explanation for how it occur.
I like to point out that it would take them generations to subdue and convert Americans if they actually did manage to pull this off and that we're more likely to experience mass conversions of Americans to Mormonism before Americans become Muslim.
Hell, the Mormons, one of the fastest growing religions in the US, have taken more than 100 years to get to where they are now and they are still a religious minority in the US - and they look like regular old Americans!
"BOO" Ahab the Arab.
There is an enemy here, bent on world domination and untold destruction, a veritable hellspawn of unconquerable ignorance and longevity, something that I truly hope is not a part of our DNA, although its pawns and its profiteers would have one believe otherwise, and, to continue the old tired metaphor, to believe that we are cursed as a species to live a life of suffering, pain, and contrition.
The enemy is intolerance.
How do you protect against intolerance?
How do you limit, or compartmentalize, intolerance?
Is reason alone an adequate defense against intolerance?
Who will stand against intolerance? Our candidates? Our voters?
Our selves....? And if so, that what does that look like in a world where Islam and Christianity refuse to share and allow freedom to exist?
anon @ 9:
That's a far cry from taking over the United States, which is the point Greenwald is making. Seriously, you're worried that installation of foot-washing facilities is going to somehow turn the US into a Muslim nation? That does sound a little bizarre, as a matter of fact. Discuss it all you want, but it doesn't make you sound any more informed the more you discuss it. The fastest-growing ethnic group in the US is Latinos, and they tend to be Catholics, not Muslims. There are more Mormons in the US than Muslims, and I don't know if you've noticed, but the Muslim hordes the right-wingers fear have a loooong way to go to get here to take over the country.
Because that is what we're talking about. Not the threat of terrorism -- which can come from a variety of directions -- but people who say that there's going to be a Muslim flag flying over the Capitol.
The three largest military powers on the planet: the US, China, and Russia are all non-Muslim. The largest Muslim-majority nations are Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Turkey, and Iran. That's just 6 out of the top 25 countries in population. None of them even share a border. None of them are major military powers outside of their own immediate sphere of influence.
So what are you afraid of?
Freaked-Out Canadian @ 15:
oh, I know. So creepy. I mean, stuff like this could never happen here...nevahhhhh
When Muslims start taking swimming lessons, be afraid. Be very afraid.
Seriously, do these people have any idea about logistics? What it would take for a viable attempt to physically invade the United States?
We spent years during WWII building up our capability to invade Europe. We started with North Africa, then Sicily, followed by Italy.
Equipment, tactics, training, intelligence were all part of the preparation. And that was just to launch an invasion across the English Channel.
Al Qaida is not going to sneak an invading army into the US by landing them secretly in Mexico and then having them pretend to be illegal immigrants coming here to work.
Are wingnuts stupid or just fucking morons?
darrelplant @ 36:
boogeyman
The American Cocktail:
- 1 part exceptionalism
- 1 part xenophobia
- 1 part expansionism
- 1 part nationalism
- a twist of fear
Shake until toxic.
Fear the evil quiet threat. Always lingering and rarely appearing. Deep dark different devils. They are out there and they hate you. Hate your freedom. Hate your life. Hate your God. Hate your wife. Hate your children. Hate everything you stand for. Don't forget your children. Because you stand for peace, and freedom. So we have to act unilaterally and pre-emptively. Because we tell you they hate you. We tell you of the hate. We tell you of the anger. We tell you, so you should be affraid. And we will invade. We tell you. Like we have told you before. Told you many things before. They were true. They were honest, the things we told you. So be afraid and we will protect you. Pre-emptively. In Iraq. In Iran. In Syria. In Venezualla. In Korea. In Sudan. In perpetude. Forever. We will invade for you. Trust us. We have earned it. Remember terror?
anon @ 9:
You bring up footbaths and that type of thing. Why do you care? Does it interfere with your personal happiness to walk by an appliance that is geared towards another's religious practice? Those things are being installed not to cater to a religion, but for a pragmatic purpose....to keep Muslims from hurting themselves when they fall over backwards trying to practice their religion.
Had Christians a practice that subjected them to a risk of slip and fall or other injury, an accomodation would likely be made also....or likely would have been in already in effect.
I have lived with Muslims, sharing a apartment with both a fairly secular one (forgive me if I am not using correct terminology) from Turkey, and an "extremist" from Pakistan. Both were kind, generous, fiercely loyal friends, who loved their families very much. I cannot imagine any reason except racism and xenophobia to assume that the majority are more like the men who flew an airplane into the twin towers, and less like my friends....or any reason to object to them becoming neighbors or fellow countryment. For further description of what "those people" are like, or at least were like until we started invading their countries, take a quick pleasant read of "Honeymoon with my Brother" by Franz Wizner.......by the way, lest you assume bias, Wizner, is actually a Republican, former press secretary for Pete Wilson.
Regarding religion in government, if we hadn't opened the potential to that floodgate to the fucking christians, there wouldn't be too much to worry about. Their is no reason to have prejudice against their superstitious mumbo jumbo.....as if "ours" is superior.
V V
When the islamofacist hordes emerge from their matter transporters in the middle of Central Park, who'll be laughing then?
when in the hell are we going to call these idiots on there endless misrepresentation of the term Islamic fascist. they are not fascist they believe in a theocracy, you know state run by the church. when you examine the make-up of our present day white house you quickly realize that our government is the one being run by big business. we are the fascist.
Another Kiwi @ 43:
Damn it. Did Iran give them matter transporters again? I hear they have been shipping them over the border.
We really are our own worst enemy. Saddam was secular, enemies with Iran and Al Qaeda. What the hell is going on? regards
willyloman @ 45:
The Chinese gave them matter transporters but, as it turned out, when the Islamofascists materialized, using the Chinese-made transporters, their bodies were contaminated with lead.
Can these people make up their minds? Is it the Mexicans wanting to make the US into Mexico, or is it the Islamofascists (whatever the hell that means) wanting to make the US into some kind of Caliphate? Or should we be worried about the Scandinavians trying to turn Minnesota into a land where lutefisk consumption is mandatory? I know which of those three I'm most scared of.
I can't wait for them to bring back the Yellow Peril, the ravages of hip-hop, and all of that. They can pretty much constantly worry about every group or culture that isn't defined as WASP by them, but they can't seem to see that, you know, they can't all actually happen.
Oh, no. I think I hear the daily lutefisk ration coming through the mail slot...yeccch.
You guys are so stupid. They have flying carpets you know!
gospeedtrials.blogspot.com @ 12:
Well, not exactly.
Hitchens, at least, speaks out against Christian Dominionists(like Falwell) and right wing Roman Catholics(Mother Theresa) as much as he does fundamentalist Islam.
Hitchens is very wrong about the war in Iraq, but not so wrong in his own war against religious fundamentalism.
Freaked-Out Canadian @ 27:
Oy, Freaked-Out Canadian , it was a little snark, you know, snark ? :)>
Those lizards at the lgf think that.
It is fun scaring the lizards.
Next, they will fear China.
crazy train @ 51:
Alas, then, my commentary seems to have jumped the snark, c-train.
The boogyman under the bed is real. Everytime I'm in my room alone, he threatens to come out and get me. Until mom or dad opens the door - then he goes back under the bed. That MF is quick!
Necadawg @ 49:
YES, YES, I had forgotten about that ! Whew, thanks for the reminder!
Necadawg @ 49:
EEEK, I hadn't thought of that!
I'm setting up a clothesline first thing tomorrow.
Or at least some Febreeze.
getalife @ 52:
Nah. They have nukes, they produce all of Americas consumer goods, hold all of its debt, and they have a billion people. What's to worry about with China? Let's keep our focus where it matters...on men in caves.
I think the footbath issue does seem to be a reasonable question of public money going to establish a religion. As a Jew I put up with public schools that do not serve kosher food. I am not sure that public money should unquestioningly be used to install footbaths.
I think it is wrong that I or others would be called a racist or mocked for even asking to discuss the issue.
There are lots of phony cries of anti-semitism, racism, misogyny these days. Usually the only ones to benefit are a) lawyers, and b) the people hired to direct the new pro-X agency. The hits are to are free speech and to our ability to conduct our own lives.
I think it is reasonable to ask about concessions to Islam wrt footbaths, or depictions of Mohammed. Salman Rushdie used to be a hero of the left. Now folks in this thread might say he was fear mongering.
This thread is full of mocking. Sure, we won't be invaded by an Islamic Navy, but is that necessary and is that what the rightwing sites are truly claiming? Be honest now.
There may not be another 9/11, but there could easily be a dirty bomb, or even the "ebolla bomb" where a person is purposefully infected with ebolla or Marburg virus and placed on an aircraft. There could easily be suicide bombers present at airports or other public venues. And our behavior in Iraq makes that more likely.
I like to think of us on the left as reality based and looking for dialogue. But I see a lot of just pure mockery and shutting down of a discussion of the real issues.
The statement above that the enemy is intolerance is correct. It's not just our intolerance of others, but others intolerance towards us. And in fact, our intolerance towards ourselves as we enter an age where we extinguish conversations with mockery and not with argument.
Necadawg @ 49:
And magic lamps. One wish granted by a djinn and we're all goners.
And to think that I Dream of Jeannie was a comedy when it was really the invasion plan.
Andy K @ 59:
FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!
lol
At the risk of being called a troll, which I am not, can you please explain more specifically why you think we are not at risk from some form of Islamic revolution?
Because modern Islam (like medieval Christianity) thrives on illiteracy. Not necessarily the leaders, but the vast majority of the rank and file. Notice where the radical militant islamists hail from, and then check the literacy rates in those countries (also note that many Christians are certain of their belief in the Bible, but have seldom, if ever, actually read the book). This is why progressive ideals (like universal literacy) are important to defend and maintain. it's easy to tell someone what's in a book, if they can't read the book themselves.
Due to their illiterate populations, modern Islam has very little in the way of original science/art/philosophy. They don't have navies, intercontinental ballistic missles, satellites, or advanced communications systems - unless they acquired them from Western (literate) countries.
Did you ever wonder why it is that every time we face an Islamist military situation, we face the weapons and weapons systems we sold them?
Education is the antidote to the hate-filled disease of religion.
anon @ 58:
Footbaths? You gotta be joking. If you really want a discussion, here it is:
1) Footbaths are a one-time investment - cheap, easy to install, and solve a health and safety problem.
2) They are not in the same league as the provision of a Kosher menu which, like Halal and Vegan choices, are ongoing and a considerable burden to the catering company. Maybe that's also worth doing, but it is easier to bring a lunch than a footbath.
The only reason that footbaths get discussed is that they are used as an example of unfair "accomodation" on a "slippery slope" where they form "the thin edge of the wedge". All of this is sprcious nonsense. The provision of footbaths or, for that matter, a prayer room, is utterly justifiable where numbers warrant.
No one is discounting the real threat that terrorists represent. What most people on this site are able to do, however, is distinguish between real threats and foolish hysteria. Footbaths, and Muslim hordes breeding like rabbits in Michigan belong to the latter.
Jim @ 2:
LOL, Red Dawn was damned funny (to me at least), I mean, some
people thought it was a warning of things to come.
Marcus Aurelius @ 61:
So, wouldn't the solution be the following?
1) Stop invading Muslim countries and pissing them off.
2) Stop supporting brutal Muslim dictators.
3) Stop selling massive caches of arms to Muslim countries.
4) Stop blockading and imposing embargos on Muslim countries.
5) Engage with them diplomatically and provide social and educational support.
Why doesn't America put its own house in order first, and worry about the Muslim world second?
Republicans:
How can people who act so tough be so scared of everything?
Oh, they need a big daddy to protect them from the big bad Islamists.
Remember folks--19 asshole terrorists have cost us not only thousdands of lives,
but 300 billion dollars, our constitution and our international reputation.
19 people folks. Just think what would happen if say, 32 attacked us?
Jim @ 2:
Particularly noteworthy, the date: 1984. Not because of Orwell's book, but because it's a good 25 years after the Red Scare of the '50s.
They were so effective in propagandizing the Red Menace, there are still bumpkins who haven't come out of their underground bunkers.
All I'm saying is, get ready for Islamo-fascists to start being spotted at County Fairs and PTA meetings, the way UFOs were reported during the "War of the Worlds" broadcast.
Because they grow 'em big and stupid in America.
anon @58-
I think it is reasonable to ask about concessions to Islam wrt footbaths, or depictions of Mohammed. Salman Rushdie used to be a hero of the left. Now folks in this thread might say he was fear mongering.
The Rushdie case isn't one of Islam invadin' anywhere. It's a case of fundamentalist Islam issuin' an open contract fer a "hit" on a man they consider a heretic(or a blasphemer- can't keep those sins straight). And folks around here or anywhere might say anything, but I don't recall that anyone here has made any such claims about Rushdie.
...or even the “ebolla bomb” where a person is purposefully infected with ebolla or Marburg virus and placed on an aircraft.
Which might be effective if filo-viruses(Marburg and Ebola bein' related under that designation) could be transmitted through the air. As of now, these viruses can only be spread through direct exchange of bodily fluids. I've gotta think that anyone who has direct bodily contact with a person who's profusely sweatin' blood might notify the plane's pilot, leadin' to quarantine as soon as the aircraft lands. Yeah, it'd suck to be on that plane, but the outbreak could be easily contained.
The statement above that the enemy is intolerance is correct. It’s not just our intolerance of others, but others intolerance towards us. And in fact, our intolerance towards ourselves as we enter an age where we extinguish conversations with mockery and not with argument.
And ironically it's the fundamentalist Christian right- the new base of the GOP- that mirrors fundamentalist Islam action fer action.
Most of you folks are old enough to remember the craziness of the 1950s. There were folks on the right back then who believed that thousands of Red Chinese Troops were gathering in Mexico or on the Yucatan Peninsula, poised to invade the United States. The Dan Smoot Report was a weekly TV program that highlighted evidence of Communist infiltration of the U.S. Government. Paranoia has always been part of the playbook of the right. They have always been fear mongers. The boogieman is always waiting out there to get us. The name of the boogieman changes from time to time, but he's always out there.
What the right wing knows that the left doesnt, is that the modern muslim jihadist movement is derived from a philosophy that is an offshoot of Hegel and Marx. What Osama really wants is the global dictatorship of the proletarislamofasciate. The philosophy behind this is called diabolical dialectical islamofascist jihadist totalitarianism. Its main tenet is that capitalism will inevitably collapse before the power of the great jihadist movement of proletarislamofascism.
Beware the insidious threat of diabolical dialectical islamofascist jihadist totalitarianism! Quick, hide the first, fourth, fifth and sixth amendments, habeas corpus, Geneva Conventions, the "faithfully execute" clause, and all of Article III. We cant allow ourselves to look weak!
Correction to my post at #69. I meant to say, "Most of you folks are NOT old enough to remember the craziness of the 1950s." Sorry about that.
a prayer room
The provision of a prayer room in a public school is justifiable? On what grounds?
You think this is okay and reasonable? I am very glad the Christian Fellowship Club was not given school grounds for a prayer room when I was in high school.
Creating a kosher kitchen is essentially a one time cost. After that as all public schools created kosher/vegan/halal menus the demand on kosher/vegan/halal foods would serve to drive prices down. And why should money be an issue when it comes to providing kosher meals to Jewish kids?
I don't understand why this is not establishment of religion.
Splash @ 70:
I'm just curious. How do you sell Karl Marx to a follower of Islam?
Yeah, well, I never thought we'd have so thoroughgoing an oligarchy, either.
Marcus Aurelius @ 61:
Hallelujah.
As you can see from our own brush with insecurity on 9/11, people whose sense of peace and security is upended immediately turn to religion, and it becomes radicalized.
Is it any wonder, in the places that have been perpetually (and some would say intentionally) unsettled, religion would become radicalized en masse?
This isn't brain surgery, folks. It's simple psychology.
anon @ 72:
On what grounds? Hmmm...let me see.
Well, Muslims are asked to pray several times a day. They ask for a room to be set aside so they can do so. If there's a bunch of them, why not?
Up here, in public schools, prayer rooms are set aside for any religion to use, Christian Fellowship too if they please. Footbaths have been installed. No big deal.
How is this "establishment of religion". They aren't "establishing" anything. They are providing facilities that are accessible for students of any faith to use.
You make it seem like such a big deal. It's not. It's simple decency.
And I'm not sure when you last visited a public school, but most of them don't have their own kitchens any more. They hire catering companies.
You have a big axe to grind, sounds like.
Carmikl @ 73:
The Ummah, or community, created by Muhammad was revolutionary in egalitarianism and took "taxes" from all Muslims to give to the poor. And there have been socialist-leaning factions in Islam.
anon @ 72:
IIRC, the SCOTUS ruled a few years back that prayer groups can use school rooms to meet, at least as long as the school doesn't issue the call to prayer- for any religion.
And the footbath would be as much a one-time-cost as a kosher-ized kitchen, no?
Agai, ironically, yer aware that there are Islamic dietary laws that are nearly- if not completely- identical to the Kosher laws, right?
Carmikl @ 71:
I knew exactly whatchya meant.
Ain't it just like you folks- you who can recall the fifties- to botch it up on the e-mail contraptions?
;)
Andy K @ 78:
Honestly, Andy. I'm not sure anon knows the law, has spent much time in a multi-faith school, or has ever seen a footbath.
It would be instructive of him to imagine being a Muslim kid in a crowded high school and trying to honour the dictates of his or her faith. Personally, I think all faith is a load of malarkey, but when you are a Principal, and a group of your students come with a reasonable request for accomodation, especially if it doesn't cost much, or put anybody out, wouldn't it be churlish to refuse?
And the footbath would be as much a one-time-cost as a kosher-ized kitchen, no?
It would, I agree. But upthread someone was rationalizing why a footbath would be okay, but a kosher kitchen not.
yer aware that there are Islamic dietary laws that are nearly- if not completely- identical to the Kosher laws, right?
More than just aware, I have been downright pissed off with both Judaism and Islam in communities I used to live for not getting together and figuring out how to create a kosher/halal butcher shop. Members of both communities complain about the high costs due to extra labor and low demand. I would love to see cooperation between the two communities. I know that other folks like to eat kosher food too as the meat is usually a higher quality and the animals better cared for.
Other notes: my kids' public elementary school has a kitchen.
You have a big axe to grind, sounds like.
Of course, when someone disagrees with you, regardless of how polite they are, you need to make personal attacks on them. Which is what I was saying upthread about intolerance and mandated political correctness.
anon @ 72:
While I am by no means an expert in kosher food preparation, I have seen a program devoted to the catering of a kosher wedding.....I wouldn't characterize obeying Jewish food law as a "one time" expense. It takes time and energy in operations (this costs money on an ongoing basis) to follow rules that aren't otherwise in the interest of minimum cost and maximum efficiency. I do know quite a bit about how an industrial kitchen operates, having paid for a couple of degrees in the restaurant industry.
Regarding making a room available for prayer...I personally don't have a problem with this, so long as one is also made available to any other groups who happen to want one for whatever reason, including any and all other irrational superstition such as a Tarot Card Club, "Faries are real" club...whatever.
V V
Freaked-Out Canadian @ 80:
Where's the uprorar about the footbaths comin' from, anyway? Is this somethin' that's happenin' in Dearborn, MI, where the majority of the populace is Muslim?
Here, on the other side of the state, the Grand Rapids Public Schools simply can't afford the luxury, and there's no way in hell that a millage would be passed to pay fer 'em!
anaon @81-
I know that other folks like to eat kosher food too as the meat is usually a higher quality and the animals better cared for.
Count me in as one of those people! Outside of the ponies, my favorite thing 'bout a trip to the track is the Hebrew National hot dogs!
When I was in high school, one of my teachers was the faculty sponsor of the Christian Fellowship club and she very inappropriately pressured students of all faiths to attend it, and mentioned its activities in class.
I am very against state sponsorship of any faith in school -- that used to be the proud liberal position.
I went to large public schools that had people of all faiths in it. I went to a college that had people of all faiths in it. I work at a large company that has people of all faiths in it, including burka wearing women.
Again, I do not understand why it is necessary for you, upon finding that someone disagrees with you, to marginalize that person and rationalize why that person must be wrong.
I go to Costco for the kosher hotdogs, but I bet the track is more fun.
anon @ 81:
Okay, let me be a bit clearer, anon:
1) You compared footbaths to the provision of a Kosher menu. I tried to point out that the comparisonn is unfair. In schools where there is no Kosher food, there isn't Halal either. So, no special accomodation to Muslims there.
2) Footbaths are a minor issue, and a cheap and easy instalation. In many cases, the Muslim community contributes the funds so there is no financial burden to the school.
3) Prayer rooms are widely available in schools. They were, in many cases, established for Muslim kids, but are available to students of any faith, and non-deist meditators.
My real point is that you claim there can be no discussion of these issues. Sure there can be, but not in an unfair fashion. And in the discussion, it helps to actually take into account the people - in this case - young students whose these policies affect. These issues have been discussed. And, in most cases, perfectly sensible accomodations have been made.
I mean, in the end, what's your point?
That Muslim kids shouldn't have footbaths? That there shouldn't be set-aside prayer rooms?
Vitam Vas @ 82:
It's a onetime cost for additional space, equipment, and training. After that the additional costs are for food and maintenance of more equipment. It doesn't take anymore time to create a kosher meal than a nonkosher meal. It takes only the training to create kosher menus and keep the kitchen kosher. There is probably additional labor to at the least, pay for an inspection and a supervisor.
On the other hand, though the taste of the food may dictate differently, I suspect that kitchen costs today are not driven by lowest price.
Again, this came up because upthread someone rationalized footbaths as a onetime cost, and kosher kitchens are largely a onetime cost too, especially in the long run after all public schools start serving kosher meals and the industry makes for cheaper kosher foods.
My point was that establishment of religion should not be rationalized on a cost basis.
I am against state sponsorship because I want to make sure that all kids have the choice to practice their own religion, or practice no religion, and not be pressured by teachers or kids.
There are lots of religious practices that are inappropriate in a public school and are not allowed.
anon @84-
My school had the same type of thing. It was called Young Life. The meetins were led by a guidance counselor, off campus, but announcements about meetin times and cancelations were made on the school p.a..
The "cool" clique attende these things. I asked my mom about attendin' once, and she laughed it off because the group was Protestant and we were not-very-serious-Catholics on our way to droppin' organized religion altogether.
I don't think the rank and file loonies see it this way. When asked to state their case most of the ones I know are quite transparent: Their fear is that the "Islamofacists" will just make it hard for us to pillage their resources (especially oil.) If they really do "hate our freedoms," then why haven't they blown up Holland, the most liberal society imagined?
The "you hate America" crowd is mostly unclear on history as well as cause and effect.
Peace, Steve
We live in a propaganda age and significant portion of U.S.public is very gullible. This message does appeal to christian right and Israeli supporters. Makes me sad to see so many Jews falling for this type of message. Right wing in this country can easily turn against Jews instead of Muslims and no doubt foxnews type outlets will be leading the charge.
When I was in high school, one of my teachers was the faculty sponsor of the Christian Fellowship club and she very inappropriately pressured students of all faiths to attend it, and mentioned its activities in class.
This is wrong. She should have been fired. Next question.
I am very against state sponsorship of any faith in school -- that used to be the proud liberal position.
Equal accommodation, within reason is not sponsorship.
I went to large public schools that had people of all faiths in it. I went to a college that had people of all faiths in it. I work at a large company that has people of all faiths in it, including burka wearing women.
Well....OK. I wasn't one that thought so. Jews don't typically live in places where they don't have exposure to people who aren't like them.....it is interesting though that you are to some degree siding with the position of uneducated backwater rednecks who think that they are going to die if they have to endure some cultural diversity.
Again, I do not understand why it is necessary for you, upon finding that someone disagrees with you, to marginalize that person and rationalize why that person must be wrong.
See above
anon @ 86:
Much more fun...and at least I can find'em at the track without havin' to walk three miles!
To anon:
It's reasonable to mock ridiculous hysteria.
Forget about stupid footbaths. I could really give a shit, to be honest. I'm more concerned about Blockbuster censorship.
Red Dawn was funny because there was zero chance, ever, that the Ruskis would parachute into Colorado or S. Dak. or Kansas or wherever the fuck that was set. Just, totally, loony, not going to happen, never made any sense at all except to those who simply insist on masturbating to ideas of tribal warfare.
And they Ruskis had 10,000 times better a chance of taking over the US than radical Islamists.
So... we are entitled to mock. We are not obliged to entertain seriously the ideas of paranoid nutjobs. I'll give the same lecture next time the 911 truthers come around too - and I'm not by any stretch of the imagination anti-conspiracy-theorist. I just like paranoid theories to, you know, make sense.
I know it might come as a surprise to your puppet masters on LGF but the racist fear angle isn't going to get you any traction with the left, except as a troll. But not as a concern troll.
anon @ 85:
Okay, so she was a bad teacher. What does her proseletyzing have to do with providing a prayer room?
It still is. Providing a room for prayer, or footbaths is not "state sponsorship" of faith.
I'm not marginalizing you. You asked for discussion:
so we do fail to rationally discuss the issues.
I appreciate your trying to clarify, but honestly, I don't understand what you are saying here: 1) You compared footbaths to the provision of a Kosher menu. I tried to point out that the comparisonn is unfair. In schools where there is no Kosher food, there isn’t Halal either. So, no special accomodation to Muslims there.
My point was that there are many religious practices that are not accommodated in public spaces and with taxpayer money. That's what the first amendment is all about. That's what freedom of religion, and freedom from religion is all about
Footbaths are a minor issue, and a cheap and easy instalation. In many cases, the Muslim community contributes the funds so there is no financial burden to the school.
I don't think accommodation to religion should be made on the basis of this accommodation costing less than that accommodation or that accommodation over there even being free. That said, I have less of a problem with it if there is no financial burden on the school.
My real point is that you claim there can be no discussion of these issues. Sure there can be, but not in an unfair fashion. And in the discussion, it helps to actually take into account the people - in this case - young students whose these policies affect. These issues have been discussed. And, in most cases, perfectly sensible accomodations have been made.
As I said, even in here, I have been mocked and disparaged and dismissed for bringing the topic up. An alternative would be to discuss the legitimate issues, the taxpayer funds, the first amendment conflicts, the impact on students, the reasonable fear of schools pressuring students one way or the other.
What seems intolerant and counter-productive is to disparage any citizen that wishes to be informed and wishes to express an opinion on this.
That Muslim kids shouldn’t have footbaths? That there shouldn’t be set-aside prayer rooms?
That there should be no state establishment of religion.
anon @ 88:
Anon, you keep talking about "establishment of religion" and "state sponsorship of religion" in schools.
Neither footbaths nor prayer rooms are either of these. The schools are not "establishing" a religion, nor are they "sponsoring" it.
They are meeting the basic needs of their clientele, and making it possible for their students to reside within the school property throughout the day. It is an issue of safety, health, decency, and fairness. Nothing more. Surely you can see this.
You'll have to carry on without me, as I have some work to finish, but I thank you all for the conversation.
anon @85-
On the other hand, though the taste of the food may dictate differently, I suspect that kitchen costs today are not driven by lowest price.
You'd be kiddin' yerself to think that.
My kid is a senior in a school district that will pass any- ANY!- millage proposal put on the ballot.
However, they shopped out their food services a few years back, in an effort to trim the payroll(and benefits) of the kitchen staffs. But the caterin' service that took over didn't only trim back the staff, they trimmed back on the food itself- and it shows in the taste!
Is this foot bath stink about U of M by any chance?
So when the school recently approved installing two footbaths in a pair of new unisex bathrooms, to accommodate the needs of both male and female Muslim students, the local Islamic community started planning ways to raise the estimated $25,000 cost. -- http://www.nysun.com/article/59485
University declined the offer and took the funds from student infrastructure fees.
anon @ 96:
Oh, for heaven's sake, anon.
"Okay, kids...everybody go use the footbaths or else!"
Footbaths and multi-faith prayer rooms cost nothing, don't conflict with the First Amendment, have a positive impact on the students who need them and none on those who don't, and if anyone is pressuring a kid, it has nothing to do with the availability of footbaths, or of an empty room.
I think your ideas have been fairly entertained, engaged, discussed, and answered...but you keep coming back to the same catchprase - "establishment of religion" - without providing any sense of what you actually mean by those words.
That, to my mind, is the essence of trolldom.
anon-
I don't think yer bein' mocked. I think yer bein' over-sensitive.
And I agree with JT- the hysteria is ridiculous. As my friend, long time C&L commenter Stanley Rosenthal might say, the whole argument is nothin' but a straw man. It's a false rallyin' point to mislead the 28%.
In reality, religious fundamentalists are attemptin' to take over the world. But they're not Muslims, my friend, who are waitin' offshore. They call themselves Christians. And they've called themselves Americans fer over two centuries now.
an easily-marketable enemy is what any fascism needs. It used to be the jews (in relation to Germany in the 40's) then Communists (in relation to the U.S. in the 50's and 60's) and now it's Islamofascisterrorism. Same shit, different century.
Andy K @ 79:
I wonder if I should calling myself Geezer? Hey, I was just a kid in the 50s.
anon @ 88:
You obviously have no experience with a the reality of an industrial kitchen operations to try and make these points. Liberals like reality. Kitchens tend to be low wage, poor working condition, high turnover operations. The training would be continuous and ongoing...a continuing and ongoing expense. Additionally, quite frankly it's hard at times to get low wage workers to follow basic sanitation and safety regulations, let alone concession to an "alien" religion's dietary restrictions.
Supervision-you kind of brush over it. Isn't it necessary for a Rabbi to be present for all aspects of food preparation? Serving lunch requires about six hours a day, from around eight to four give or take a bit. What is the time of a Rabbi worth? $20 an hour? That's $600 a week....Thirty Thousand some a year.
Isn't it also necessary to, if an error is made, throw out the food...that's a little pricey too, wouldn't you say....although I guess you could just feed it to the gentile kids.
I'm sorry, but you are trying to irrationally compare an apple to an orange......acting much more like our breathern on the right, which is why some are being a touch snarky with you.
V V
I seriously doubt the right wing is scared of losing gay bars. =)
myiq2xu @ 38:
YES!
When someone says "I'm not a troll" ummm, I think you can say bullshit right away. This guy wants to build another kitchen on every school because somewhere a school has foot baths. Grow up and stop letting hate and FEAR run your pathetic life.
Carmikl @ 104:
Really? So was my mom!
;) ;)
How can these people claim to beleive in an omnipotent god, if they don't beleive their god is powerful enough to prevent "pagans" and "infidels" from taking over his people?
Stonicus @ 106:
American conservatives and Islamic terrorists have more in common than they realize.
praise the lord!!! let's keep the usa for god-fearing american christians!!!
john bourne harbour @ 112:
and republican pukes of all religions praise de lard!
Stonicus @ 106:
Crap! I was just gonna go to bed when I saw somethin' that was too appropriate not to share:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/military_ban_on_gays_for_their?utm...
If you ever want to have fun at the expense of a winger that you don't like, mention that you heard there was an increase in Muslim conversion county or city. But do it with a straight face. You will see some amazing responses.
the righties fear monger to get trailerians to donate to them while they get top 1 percent tax cuts
Otay @ 115:
Edit: "an increase in Muslim conversion in your county or city."
Vitam Vas @ 105:
Verdict: Anon wins in spite of snark and early departure. His point was the duplicity of the secularists in the whole "church vs. state" polemic. The "Can my son use the footbaths if he steps in dew on the lawn? and the My religion says I must wear a cross to adhere to my faith. Can I do this?" questions are noteworthy, but the larger point of the "camel's nose under the tent" must be discussed.
38 myiq2xu,
"Are wingnuts stupid or just fucking morons?"
Rhetorical...
right?- I mean correct?Fear, by its definition is not rational, it's fear -- an emotion. True or not, the fear is driving Congress to pass the FISA Act, not challenge the President, and still funding illegal war. The American voter's problem is its governance is not guided by reason, but irrational assent to illegal abuse of power.
Erin, move in closer, closer.
Is that a bugger hanging out of your nose ?
Stonicus:
You have a good point. They know better than anyone their secret lusts will find an outlet even under the watchful eye of theocrats.
scruzman is incoherent, and probably a sockpuppet for anon. For one thing, accomodation of religious requirements *should* be rationalized on a cost basis. I can't see why Bumfuck, N. Dak. should be spending $30K a year to have a rabbi declare the food kosher for a single student. That's patently insane. And yet the same people objecting to - what was it again? foot baths? - tend to be the very same ones defending the "culture" when schools have Christmas pagaents or whatever.
I know it's hard for stupid people to understand, but my position is quite consistent. 1) Official advocacy of religion in any form should be strictly verboten, and that includes providing any imprimatur of official status or sanction - and where there are grey areas, be reasonably inclusive. 2) Since every community contains religious beliefs, some reasonable, proportionate accomodation should be made. If my religion includes having metric assloads of marijuana available - that's not reasonable. If my religion requires everyone else to put pants on dogs and cats, I should expect to be told to STFU.
You see, I believe paying taxes DOES entitle you to some say in how your community is run. It just doesn't extend into how other people lead their own lives. And it doesn't extend into the state enforcing religious principles.
For instance, a Jewish female judge in NYC struck down the state kosher laws, i.e. which rabbinical groups can declare food "kosher", etc. And it was an excellent decision. She decided it's essentially a trademark issue - the state has no authority otherwise. The marketplace is entitled to decide *which* version of "kosher" is sufficient. The state is not an appropriate place to battle questions of religious authority. But, in a community containing many Jews, do I have a problem with citizens lobbying for kosher options in the school cafeteria? Of course not.
That is the essence and genius of democracy. It's messy in practice, and can leave a lot of hard feelings. But, to paraphrase Churchill, it's the worst possible solution, excepting the alternatives.
And that is why some idiotic story about footbaths for people who are willing to foot (har har) the cost is not going to raise my temperature one millikelvin.
Mainstreaming is mainstreaming. It's justs that the repugs have created such an extreme climate everything gets fucked up when religion raises it's ugly spector.
Everybody starts "special ordering" and whiney and hung up in this country. Traditionally if you're a catholic kid go to parochial school and pray like it's going out of style, it's enforced.
If you're jewish go to schul.
If you need special food your mom will pack it for you in a grease-stained brown bag.
I like the idea of universal meditation room to collect yourself before an exam or if you had a fight with your best friend. I'd call it a meditation room because anyone can relate to that. My back goes up and I hiss when somebody says "prayer room".
If a kid has a million specialized needs associated with religion then go to a religious SCHOOL.
If you have a fussy little diet then BRING YOUR GODDAM FOOD with you.
In my son's high school the mexican kids painted a FLOOR TO CEILING Jesus and it really pissed off everyone else who had the good manners to keep their fucking religion to themselves. Bad stuff comes when you open the door to idiocy and this most definitely
IS IDIOCY.
I was talking to a Shia muslim the other day. She didn't even know what Wahabism was. Are those the muslims that the fearmongers are referring to?
Wow, most of the posters here exemplify a neoliberal version of the commenters at LGF but you've outdone them in your capacity for shallow, sarcastic and mean-spirited words. And you wonder why issues get polarized.
Apparently it never occurred to anyone here that the Islamic threat is a longer term issue. To learn the reason some folks are concerned at this particular time take a look at what is happening in Europe: "off limits" zones (over 100 of them) in France, where Muslim thugs hold sway and French police dare not enter. In fact the police have been protesting this situation. The strongly disproportionate incidence of rape of white "native" women in Sweden by young Muslim men. The murder of Theo VanGough. Large numbers of people protesting the building of new mosques in Germany and UK. Now the UK is believed to harbor more of a terrorist threat (for the US) than any other country because of their burgeoning and belligerent Muslim community.
But the concern remains Islam itself, and that was not covered by the initial entry. Terrorists are only a specialized arm of Islam, its most violent and extreme proponents. It is laughable how ignorant people frequently display the knee-jerk response to say "Christians (or Christianity) are just as bad as Muslims (Islam)". Not true. Islam is a "program for life" and includes all secular, religious and political aspects of life. These aspects are not separable from each other, thus religion and politics are as one, a radical contrast with Christianity and other religions. The Koran allows and encourages violence in the name of advacing the religion, and the end goal is the conversion, subjugation or extermination of all non-Muslim peoples. In contrast the Bible and other scriptures do not incite violence and intolerance though obviously there are intolerant and sometimes violent Christians who have their own personal problems. There are finally a few Muslims publicly ackowledging the Koranic origins of Islamic violence.
Do some homework and ask the people who are not "paranoid" like the Americans: ask the Hindus, Zoroastrians, the animists and Chritians of Sudan, Buddhists in Thailand, and so many others. Members of their groups-- old men, women and children-- are senselessly killed in the name of Islam every day. Their political advances in Europe are more obvious each day as well. With the documented Saudi funding of extreme doctrine (Wahhabism) in American mosques, among other troubling signs, it is a relief only to you that you are not worried.
The enemy you need to be worried about is one with the means, motive and ability to do serious damage to you. Sounds like most of you believe with all your might that the greatest threat to our safety is from Republicans. Well, maybe Bush but thankfully not all Republicans are neocons. Many threats take years to materialize (if they ever do) and some threats are more real than others-- do you have the smarts to know which are real and which you can just blow off?
A final word: Muslims are not the threat per se but rather Islam is the threat because it is a dogmatic, violent and supremacist ideology. There is always hope for people.
Small point correction last paragraph. That was middle school that occurred, t'was to accommodate mexican student body with special programs, but with scores 30% and below with the 3R's they shut that program down along with the school.
paurhu88@125,
You make me want to invite every Muslim I know for a week-long block party, and ask them to bring their friends too.
That was one delusional weighty tome there, friend.
crazylove @ 127:
I'm not going to take up all that bandwidth repro-ing that pile of fear mongering trash you just dumped here.
You, those who believe as you do, the bush WH, all contribute to pushing a people to their limits and wonder why they hate us. YOU'RE REASON WE ARE HATED your deranged eye-rolling madness has made this world a miserable place to live in.
You've lost your mind you fear-mongering freak. Peddle your stench somewhere else with your friends in the mental ward.
paurhu88 Says:
What horseshit. A liberal, tolerant Christian is the equivalent of an LGF poster? Yeah, good luck peddling that line. I'll believe that the second I believe a hard-core Maoist is the equivalent of a European Christian socialist. (hint: NEVER).
Yeah, it's occurred to me that Islamic fundamentalism is a long-term issue. However, in the USA, it's no more threatening a long-term issue than Christian dominionists. Actually, far, far less, since they have zero chance of succeeding in taking control of the levers of power in this country. So I'm about as scared of radical Islam as I am of the Symbionese Liberation Army. They simply can't do it. And the second it becomes the slightest bit apparent they can do us real, permanent harm, we will squash them like bugs. That is, if we don't squander our power on foreign adventurism and neo-con wet dreams first.
I'm not scared. If you want to piss your pants and hand victory to the terrorists through plain old fear, that's your choice. This liberal, Christian, Constitution-loving patriotic American will never do so. My family has served in every American war from the French-Indian war through Vietnam. I'm not impressed with the current right-wing alarmism masquerading as bravery.
actually, I'd love to see Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin forced to wear burkas for the rest of their lives.
If they hate liberalism that much, let them see what's its like to live in a real conservative region.
JT Thank you for your calmer approach and patient explanation. I feel exactly the same as you on every point but too angry to slow down and do it.
I think anon had a good point that he let get derailed into a somewhat frivolous discussion about footbaths' relation to the separation of church and state. The more weighty issue in his original post was the outrageously aggressive and often violent reaction of substantial numbers of Muslims, including media and religious leaders--people and organizations with influence--to the Mohammad cartoons. That put the publishers immediately on the defensive, when it should have been the other way around; no degree of religious belief amounts to a license to use violence in response to mere speech, however offensive. No Christian, however fervent in their belief, is permitted to set fire to stores selling copies of The God Delusion, for example. One can be offended without resorting to appeals to mob justice.
Incidents like this are also significant because the true Islamist threat that many right-wing blogs and pundits see is not a massed conventional attack by private armies of Islamic fundamentalists sweeping up onto the beaches of Miami or San Diego, nor jihadi paratroopers somehow penetrating American airspace all the way to Wyoming and taking out Cheyenne (why the heck would that be first on anyone's target list, anyway?). What they fear is a gradual cultural takeover spread by a combination of propaganda, intimidation, unchecked immigration, and the use of America's own constitutional freedoms as a defense to effective prevention of these activities. The conservative fear is the Death of a Thousand Cuts, and what they see in Europe, both with respect to hair-trigger aggression by unassimilated Muslim populations and limp responses to that aggression by "progressive" Continental societies, confirms that worldview in their minds. As such, the various posts here countering the "Red Dawn" scenario would be wide of the mark to any conservative audience; that's not what they're afraid of, so saying it won't happen won't elicit anything more than a shrug from them. They're not afraid of a shooting war. (Obviously.) What they fear is that cultural Balkanization of America will lead to entire locales essentially becoming disaffiliated with mainstream U.S. society, and that in that vacuum, the movement to bring Shari'a to our shores will find its first beachhead.
Therefore, you don't need to convince people that the Red Dawn scenario is unrealistic. They already believe that. You need to convince them that either (a) this Balkanization is not in fact happening, or (b) that the kind of cultural-protectionist measures that appeal to conservatives are not likely to have the effects that conservatives hope, i.e., their means won't work for their ends. This, in turn, means showing that Islamic communities in the U.S. can be reached by constructive outreach, and that such outreach has more upside and less downside than confrontation. Conservative pundits would say that such outreach initiatives simply allow Islamic hardliners to buy time at the expense of useful dupes (think Neville Chamberlain), who give the hardliners political cover and ultimately extract absolutely nothing in return. This belief is the last link in the chain of thought that lead to the more confrontational conservative approach.
Gramarye @ 132:
No. He didn't. He focused entirely on superficial issues with accommodation for Muslims without any consideration of far more substantial preference given to Christian and even Jewish traditions in the US. Anon's arguments were flabby attempts at justifying the point of the post, which is that a significant number of racist wackos on the right think that the "Muslims" are about to invade.
As for paurhu88's attempt to push the argument out by several decades, France is still less than 10% Muslim. Less than 3% of the UK's population is Muslim. Germany's about 4%. You might as well propose that the African-Americans or the Asian-Americans are about to take over the US. It's simple lunacy.
Are there slums the French police stay out of? Dude, have you been to any large city in the US? LA? New Orleans? Chicago? There are places all across this country the police don't patrol unless they go in in force.
Of course the right-wingers like Gramarye fear a creeping menace, too. It's been the hallmark of their mindset for more than a century, with the Yellow Peril, the Eastern European Jews, the Italians, the Mexicans, the Commies, and anybody else who doesn't agree with them or looks different.
I'm not sure why people are so upset about footbaths. I have never heard a case where we Muslims didn't fund the contruction of these baths or prayer rooms in public spaces. When I attended UMCP the school had several churches and Jewish temple but the Muslims didn't have anything at this very public state run school. The Muslims where and remian a very large number at UMCP and have had to have prayer services out on the yard, in basements of school buildings and other random places around campus until the population became so big that the school provided a proper room for prayer times or face prayer crowds flooding out side of the yard. We also had halal food served on campus but this is something we paid for with our own funds. I don't know how many of you have literally seen a Muslims wash for prayer but I tell you this act can be embrassing for the Muslim and the non Muslim who 1st walk up on someone doing this partice. It is very hard to try and stick your foot into a washbowl in a public restroom and not spill water on to the floor. Plus, you look like a jerk when non Muslims walk in and wonder WTH is your entire foot doing in the sink? lol Not to mention the danger with the pratice and the over hassle. It would seem logical to me that non Muslims would much rather see the Muslims stick their feet in proper wash basin than to see their feet in the 1st place and walk on super wet floors in the bathroom. Imagine, you're touching up your makeup and someones foot is in the sink right beside you? lol We are still trying to get our holidays on must school calendars so our children's attendence records won't be shot to hell.
Finally, if there is serious fear of Muslim some how "taking over" America it is only a sign of guilt, of the chickens coming home to roast, as cause and effect always have a way of coming back to hunt people. American foreign policy has invaded and occupied most Muslim countries before many of them were even considered countries. We (Americans) do to people what we would never tolerate for ourselves. However, at the end of the day this guilt is just guilt and the Muslims will not take over America. America to immigrants is like a vacation, theses Muslims say all the time that they didn't even practice Islam until they came to America. They didn't know the difference between figh, tawreeh, dikh, tajweed, etc.. They didn't even know why they prayed the way they prayed. There was little to no spritual element to thier belief. They simple were Muslims because their parents were Muslim. I have met countless immigrant and 1st and 2nd generation Muslims who are more inline with the tenants of faith now than when they were at home. At home you prayed at the masjid to be seen, and women didn't much pray at all. At home the outward is all important and must be preserved no matter what to cost because any tiny image can cost you your job or honor and that means no favors for your children. At home nothing gets done without connections and class rank means everything. Here all that is out the window and they have no desire to let America turn into back "home". They left home for a reason buddy and it wasn't to destroy America. So this entire facist so called link with Islam we laugh at it because we truly don't know what the heck some of your are talking about. We are so vast in Islamic thinking, race, and class; we just imagine a time when facist thinking would EVER be popular with the masses of Muslims. Heck we can only agree that we Believe in 1 God and that Muhammed was one of the prophets of God and then literally after that we as a collective ummah don't much agree on anything else. That alone will have us dealing with our own internal problems for centuries to come. The only thing in theory that MIGHT unit the Muslim is an attack on Mecca, Medina, or Al Aqsa. This idea will be very stupid because it will isolate all the Imams who have been telling the masses at Juma that America isn't against Muslims or Islam its just agaisnt terrorist. However, if people want to keep entertaining such silly ideas then they should remember cause and effect. 911 didn't stop us from continued occupation of Muslim lands and resources, in fact it made it worst.
Brownshirts versus the Communist Party circa 1931. This is exactly what you do. Fear up alot of people and let their will/fear push martial law on all of us.
How do you make the "defining struggle of the century" out of perhaps 1000-3000 jihadi idiots?
"The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself." - FDR
Right-wingers, on the other hand, believe we should be afraid of everything!
I am not a coward, I refuse to to let fear rule my life and affect my children's future. Therefore, I am not a Conservative.
crazy train @ 55:
Wait! Do their flying carpets have matter transporters?
It wasn't that long ago when that WAS the fear-of-the-day.
Toshman @ 138:
I thought they were going to drive here using the secret tunnel they are building.
Osama bin Hinding is an engineer whose specialty is tunnel construction.
That's why we kkep having mine collapses - the terrorists don't want us to accidentally find their tunnel so they sabotaged the mines, using al Qaida agents disguised to look like Mexicans.
Just to fuck with their heads all the rest of us should start talking up Islam when we are around these far right types.
Me: "Hey, Pastor Fahrite.. I've been reading the Holy Q'auran. It rings true to me, and I'm thinking of converting to Islam. What do you think?"
Pastor Fahrite: "Uh, uh, uhhhh...", (head explodes).
Could be fun.
If the reichwingers are so "tough", why are they such chickenshits?
paurhu88 @ 125:
So your solution for Islam would be a "final" one, eh? In the words of that great philosopher Rocket J. Squirrrel, "But that trick never works!"
Don't you have your own shadow to be afraid of?
scruzman @ 118:
"This ongoing expense is built in to the food cost in large industrial kitchen operations, i.e, the Army. "
This is SO a conservative. "Just SAY SOMETHING, whether or not it makes any rational sense, and then claim victory". Yea, the "expense is built into the ongoing operation". Are you implying that somehow, somewhere the school system doesn't have to pay for the expense because it is magically "built into the operation".
You know, their logic must be good because it's what they agree with and it must therefore be right and therefore logical.
V V
V V
Islamists are going to take over the world via footbath installation?
Sherri' @ 136,
Thank you for your comments. I live in the UK and am very friendly with a lot of Pakistani people. In fact, just about all of my friends are Pakistani or Indian.
One thing I can say is that American Muslims do not have the same issues as UK Muslims because American Muslims until recently were not defined by their religious beliefs. They were considered Americans, just as Catholics, Prostestants, Pagans whatever. In the UK, I have noticed it is very much different. We don't need the problems of France, the UK and other Europeans in the USA. You want riots and shit like the Parisian suburbs? Start marginalising Muslim people and treating them as second class citizens.
Conservatives have been floundering since the end of the Cold War/Red Scare days, and this is their solution.
And while they're scaring everybody to death about the Islamists, they're turning the country over to the American Taliban. So which would be worse? There's no difference: instead of burka, women would have to wear floor length calico muu-muus and bonnets
Cow lovers.
Fascinating though sad how so many here are obsessed with the purported deficiencies and "fears" of those with an opposing viewpoint rather than staying on topic and actually discussing it. Such vague dismissal accomplishes nothing constructive, while the vitriol says more about the writer than the intended adversary. Several have said they read "right wing" blogs as well and I wonder if they have noticed that conservatives tend to use their ammunition on bad ideas and ideologies (yes, Marxism, Communism, all that) whereas liberals tend to launch personal attacks on those who represent what they cannot tolerate. That is my impression but it depends on the blog I suppose.
JT- Thanks for your response. In fact I do wonder sometimes if all this "islamophobia" is just alarmist propaganda. I think some of it is, but this does not negate the general trend of Islamic hostility and it does not account for the near absence of self-criticism from Muslims themselves. And if Republicans are the fear mongerers, how do you account for Bush's consistent apologizing for Islam? Just posturing for the sake of oil and saving face in Iraq?
It is actually a fascinating subject no matter your outlook but one has to move beyond Bush/Iraq or the terrorists who make headlines, and find out more about how Islam has interacted with her neighbors for almost 1400 years. The headlines tell us nothing.
You mean like Feminazis, Chelsea's the Clinton Dog, everyone who disagrees with bush is a traitor and needs to be shot, let's blow up some mosques, the left is godless ad nauseum.
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