Rep. Wexler: Gen. Petraeus testimony eerily similar to Westmoreland and Vietnam
By John Amato Sunday Sep 09, 2007 10:07pm
I've been reading Barbara Tuchman’s “The March of Folly,” and her chapter "America Betrays Herself in Vietnam" should be read by all. Apparently Rep. Wexler (D-Fl.) knows his history and says:
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Wexler: I am skeptical General, more importantly the American people are skeptical because four years ago very credible people while in uniform and not in uniform came before this Congress and sold us a bill of goods that turned out to be false. And that's why we went to war based on false pretense to begin with.
This testimony today is eerily similar to the testimony the American people heard on April twenty eighth nineteen sixty seven from General William Westmoreland, when he told the American people--America was making progress in Vietnam.
Rough transcript below the fold.
Wexler: I vehemently opposed the surge when the president announced that last winter and instead I call for troops be withdrawn. In your testimony today you claim that the surge is working and you need more time. With all respect General, among unbiased nonpartisan expert consensus is far. The surge has failed based on most parameters. In truth, war related deaths have doubled in Iraq in 2007 compared to last year. Tragically, it is my understanding that seven more American troops have died while we've been talking today. Cherry picking statistics or selectively massaging information will not change the basic truth.
And please understand Gen. P., I do not question your credibility. You are a true patriot. I admire your service to our nation, but I do question your facts. And it is my patriotic duty to represent my constituents and ask you. question you about your argument that the surge in troops be expended until next summer, especially when your testimony stating that the dramatic reduction in sectarian death is opposite from the National intelligence estimate the Government accounting office and several other non-biased non- partisan reports.
I am skeptical General, more importantly the American people are skeptical because four years ago very credible people while in uniform and not in uniform came before this Congress and sold us a bill of goods that turned out to be false. And that's why we went to war based on false pretense to begin with.
This testimony today is eerily similar to the testimony the American people heard on April twenty eighth nineteen sixty seven from General William Westmoreland, when he told the American people--America was making progress in Vietnam.
General you say we're making progress in Iraq but the Iraqi parliament simply left Baghdad and shut down operations last month. You say were making progress but the nonpartisan GAO office concluded that the Iraqi government has failed to meet a fifteen of the eighteen political economic and security benchmarks that Congress mandated. You say we're making top progress? War related deaths have doubled. An ABC/BBC poll recently said that seventy percent of Iraqis say the surge has worsened their lives. Iraqis say the surge is not working.
I will conclude my comments General and give you a chance to respond but there's one more thing if I may. We've heard a lot today about America's credibility. President Bush recently stated we should not have withdrawn our troops in Vietnam because of the great damage to America's credibility. General, there are fifty eight thousand one hundred ninety five names etched into the Vietnam war Memorial. Twenty years from now when we build the Iraq war memorial on the National Mall, how many more men and women will have been sacrificed to protect our so called credibility? How many more names will be added to the wall before we admit it is time to leave?
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The big difference being LBJ himself refused Westmoreland's final request for more troops.
But... people who make Vietnam parallels statements about the GWOT are pinko America haters?
Wexler knows the shoe fits, just like the rest of us. WESTMORELAND - NEVER FORGET
Wow, i think Wexler found his spine. Now will he remember this long lost body part when it comes to vote for more funds for this mess Bush has created.
You should play the answer Petraeus gave Wexler.
From what I heard Wexler got an atomic wedgie from Petraeus.
Only fucking lies come from this administration.
they don't know what the truth is.........
BE PREPARED bush is about to nuke iran or america....he is a delusional bastard !!!!!!!!!
America betrays herself in Vietnam; and we have General Betray-us to do it for us in Iraq. This guy's a total joke.
Dear General,
Why did you not listen to the people's representativve, or act as if you were not listening to him? What was so important for you to be writing as he was speaking directly to you and your side-kick Crocker? I'll wait until you're done writing your love letter and then give you a chance to respond.
To LongTooth, it's no difference, Bush continues to say NO to his generals to send more trroops when he was asked at the start of the insurgency.
If someone with the personal and military stature of Colin Powell sold his soul to the devil to help bush pimp the american people into this war, why would anyone believe this smiling jackass who's doing the exact same thing - a slick powerpoint "sell job" - nothing more. It's all lies and phony baloney - everyone knows they've been fudging the numbers and cooking the books for weeks now.
Do not believe a word of this garbage he's spewing. It's another slick Bush pimpjob.
THe only problem is that we all know the GOP and their mouth pieces who are in the media will just paint Wexler as a party line Democrat, therefore should be ignored.
More deaths, more roadside bombs, more suicide bombs, and this is called "the surge is working"?
I would hate to see what Iraq would look like if it were failing.
Would not suprise me if this report is actully plagiarized from Westmoreland, just update it to 2007 standards. Sad there are people who has forgotten Vietnam and Watergate and allow history to be rewritten and not be sharp enough to see the parallels.
Coincidentally, I read Tuchman's "Guns of August" while on vacation last month. The arrogance of generals hasn't changed much since WWI.
sunset @ 9:
The GAO submitted their report of "gloom and doom" right on the heels of this bad propaganda job and Bush's photo op where he didn't walk off the military base. Charlatans and criminals they are - lying to the american people once again.
It's over as far as the american people are concerned and if Congress doesn't grow some spine soon, maybe the people will decide it's "tea time" again?
sunset @ 6:
Petraeus was given a big steaming pile of crap and was told to make ice cream out of it.
Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. He is payed to make ice cream!
There is one writer who puts the situation in unmistakable sharp relief, Barbara Tuchman,
“In the illusion of omnipotence, American policy-makers took it for granted that the given aim in Asia, American will could be made to prevail. This assumption came from the can-do character of a self-created nation and from the sense of competence and superpower derived from World War II. If this was “arrogance of power,” in Senator Fulbright’s phrase, it was not so much the fatal hubris and overextension that defeated Athens and Napoleon, and in the 20th century Germany and Japan as it was failure to understand that problems and conflicts exist among other peoples that are not soluble by the application of American force or American techniques or even American goodwill. “Nation-building” was the most presumptuous of the illusions. Settlers of the North American continent had built a nation from Plymouth Rock to Valley Forge to the fulfilled frontier, yet failed to learn from their success that elsewhere, too, only the inhabitants can make the process work.”
“Wooden-headedness, the ‘Don’t-confuse-me-with-the-facts’ habit is a universal folly never more conspicuous than at upper levels of Washington with respect to Vietnam. (And now we might say the same of Iraq.) Its grossest fault was underestimation of North Vietnam’s commitment to its goal. Enemy motivation was a missing element in American calculations, and Washington could therefore ignore all the evidence of nationalist fervor and of the passion for independence which as early as 1945 Hanoi had declared ‘no human force can any longer restrain.” Washington could ignore General Leclerc’s (and Shinseki’s) predictions that conquest would take half a million men and ‘Even then it could not be done.’ It could ignore the demonstration of e’lan and capacity that won victory over a French army with modern weapons at Dien Bien Phu, and all the continuing evidence thereafter.”
General Westraeus is Bush's boy with a track record of crossing the political line dating back three years at least. Regardless of prior service which has served America and the man himself very well, he compromised all of his achievements the second he became a WH sockpuppet.
America's military leaders are unworthy of our trust. Not to be confused with the backbone of our fine fighting force, the troops on the ground, who deserve much more than the military or administration seem to pony up for them.
The generals don't fight for you the way non-coms do. They fight for Wall Street, ambition, their pension, and mistake it for patriotism. 'Twas always so.
I spent 33 years in the Marines. Most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the rape of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street...
SMEDLEY D. BUTLER, (1881-1940) MAJOR GEN U.S. MARINES
Are Pertraeus and Westmoreland birds of a feather?
Answer?.....well, duh.
The CiC wants GOOD NEWS ONLY!
Yeah that was one of the highlights of the hearing
we are dealing with people who have absolutely ZERO conscience. They are all ego. . .
Dear Ronin Tetsuro Ah yes. We could have won. Really? After having expended more muntions in bombing a small, primitive country for more than 7 years we still did not win. We lost close to 58,000 men and the Vietnamese had more than 19 million more people to expend. They had no place to go if they lost. We could just leave and you think we could have won. Well yeah we could have. But at what cost? Oh and I found this priceless!
Why let facts get in the way of a false bill of goods?
Ray McGovern has a great article on the Westmorland comparison.
http://counterpunch.org/mcgovern09082007.html
So how come so many democrats, and supposedly enlightened people FELL for Bush's lies, 4 years ago?
4 years ago, I had no more info than anyone else here, and I could tell it was all a bunch of lies, and many of you knew the same thing... 4 years ago.... So NOW, we're supposed to listen to these same asshole DEMOCRATS, who VOTED FOR THE WAR, who FELL for Bush's lies?
How about we don't trust any of them.
Nothin' eerie about it: the Bush Team is playing the same cards used in Viet Nam. I will not be surprised if there is a coup against al-Maliki similar to the one against Diem (it sure sounded like "the news" was building to it earlier in "the surge").
...this is our next pointless 10,000-day war.
King of Mean @ 23:
We sat here shocked with the response and how Bush was getting away with it. It was so clear. Shock and Awe!?? What about the enemy, Been Forgotten?
Mr. Wexler's most notable words were 'I have a duty to my constituents' and 'how many more names will be etched on the wall'.
I hope the likes of Duncan and that bitch Ros-Lehtinen were listening carefully. These morons could take a few lessons from Wexler today. Someone needs remind them that they work for their constituents and NOT for the WarPigs or a political agenda. How do these people sleep at night knowing our kids are dying for just that.
Absolutely beautiful speech. Let's hope it's not just a smokescreen.
King of Mean @ 23:
Congress was fooled in 1964 with the Tonkin Gulf fable as well.
Otay @ 27:
Did you hear Petraus' response?
He handled it pretty well.
Well, I would say that speech is one for the history books....
A credible, articulate, and passionate statement that clarifies this failed Iraq debacle for what it is....
Very, very good....
Radically Moderate @ 29:
What was his response?
Wexler was great. I'd like to hear more of this kind of truth-telling. How many repeat of Vietnam can we possibly tolerate?
FYI, the quicktime video has bad audio.
Kudos to Wexler. David Betray Us' Syphilitic rants are wearing thin
Thank you, Mr. Wexler.
This War started because "W" wanted to be a big shot War President. It continues because "W" is trying to figure out how to save his legacy. Almost 4,000 dead, over 27,000 injured in our country. Nearly 3/4 of a million dead in Iraq and millions displaced, all so a spoiled twerp could swagger around and play C&C. Paul Craig Roberts had it right the other day when he said "W" will be remembered not as a War President, but as a mass murderer.
Kudos to Wexler! Insulting, wasn't it how Patraeus wrote the entire time he spoke? Have you ever been able to listen and write at the same time? Fuck no.
Patraeus didn't hear a word Wexler said, because he didn't want to. Patraeus is bought and sold...and so goes the once respected and noble batrayedus.
A Perfect Video.
Thanks to Representative Wexler, from Florida by the way, for being so articulate
and to C&L, or whoever, for saving us from Betraeus's Spin!
Radically Moderate @ 4:
I think the word 'atomic' will have some credible critics in the near future, and that whatever wedgie Betrayus gave Wexler will end up back in Begtrayus' mouth.
crazylove @ 36:
One mea culpa: unless Patraeus was writing Wexler's words as he spoke, anyone?
Tuchman notes that a prime characteristic of folly is the rejection of reason even after pursing disadvantage after disadvantage has become obvious. It's irrational behavior. Refusal to draw inference from negative signs. Orwell used the term Crimestop; protective stupidity.
Other aspects of folly:
o Lack of personal responsibility.
o Lust for power (with excess of power bing a greater inducement)
o The adherence to the ideas started with (blind conservatism)
Notice any today?
"The problem may be not so much a matter of educating officials for government as educating the electorate to recognize and reward integrity of character and to reject the ersatz."
Any way we can hear the "atomic" response? (my c-span video doesn't respond)
If that's so, it must have been one delusional whopper considering he has virtually no reality to work with after stepping into the bush Orgasmatron machine.
crazylove @ 36:
I've had managers and executives that have done the same thing when I raised concerns. They'd just be listening enough to pick out talking points to counter my concerns piecemeal.
People who do that aren't interested in discussing a problem. The focus is on "winning" the debate like a sophist would.
Wow, and Rep. Wexler is from FLORIDA!! Hard to believe that anything good can come out of the state whose governor stole the election for his greedy lying bastard of a brother who put us all in the shitcan!!!
Way to go, sir!! Would you consider running for president??
Like John Amato, I also am reading a book about Vietnam. This book is one of the definitive works on the subject, Stanley Karnow's "Vietnam- a History" which reveals, among other things, how the U.S. at that time [the 1960s] would say and do anything in order to justify why the U.S. should remain in Vietnam. The reasons that were given back then ring just as hollow as the reasons given today by the Bush administration as to why American lives should be sacrificed for absolutely no justifiable reason whatsoever.
The talking heads are saying that Bush has won another round in this battle. I pray that congress calls B.S. and says no.
There are bad performances and then there are absolute trainwrecks. BetrayUs and CROCKer's little display made Britney look like Luciano Pavarotti.
Yes...and then again, no (Westrmoreland = Petraeus comparisons). Actually, the very opposite military-industrial approach was taken. The crime of Wastemoreland (we activists at UCLA in '66 called him that, perhaps on cue from the "underground" papers, e.g. the L. A. Free Press and the one I later wrote for, Open City) was his exaggeration of the numbers, while Betrayus plays them down. That is, as Wastemoreland ordered his junior officers to count Viet Cong bodies twice and include collaterally damaged innocent Vietnamese, Betrayus has his troops leave off untold hundreds of ethnically cleansed sectarianist victims, e.g. "Count 'em if they were shot in the back, but not if they got it in the face." Wastemoreland added; Betrayus subtracted.
Either way you go, these are half truths, and as they say in the legal profession, sometimes a half truth is the worst sort of lie. Our own crazylove's contention that Betrayus didn't listen to Wexler because the general was "bought and sold" contains a kernel of truth. Ironically, it was a GOP who warned us of the rise of the military-industrial complex, and for that alone I like Ike. At the start of the first Desert War, we supplied Patriot missiles to the Israelis knowing that the Iraqis might follow through with their threat to send Scuds into Tel Aviv. Saddam's artillery squads did just that, and, luckily, the Scuds were so inaccurate that the only-slightly-more accurate Patriots knocked enough of them out to minimalize the damage to the Israelis. But the point was made that the available armaments were inadequate to do the job. Some insiders frankly admitted that the U.S. has periodically to "get rid" of its stockpiles in order to justify new defense spending. And you know how that gravy train works: Once Washington starts bombarding you with taxpayer money, you have to spend it to exhaustion, thereby justifying ever larger demands the next time around.
Everyone involved in perpetuating this mess in Iraq has something to gain by doing so. When Deep Throat told the Post reporters to "follow the money," he wasn't limiting this method of sussing out the wrongdoers to Watergate alone. I hate to keep carping on this, but the most important clue to what's "really going on" is the old tape of Prick Cheney's interview on a pundit program where he said that the reason Bush I did not go into Baghdad was the potential for ending up in a "quagmire." How marvelously ironic, in that this is a word nay-sayers to Iraq have used all along, without any memory (at least in my own case) of hearing Cheney say it. The question no one seems to be able to answer (though many pundits have brought it up) is why Cheney changed his mind.
Duh! The man worked for Halliburton, and Halliburton and its subsidiary KBR have raked in billions of tax dollars for privitization of services that used to be performed by the troops or civilians on the ground in invaded foreign lands. I urge all of you to rent the DVD of Robert Greenwald's Iraq for Sale, which tells the story of how these thieves looted the U.S. Treasury of gazillions of bucks without even having to go through the competitive bidding process. (The same information, and then some, is also contained in Matt Taibi's as-usually brilliant Rolling Stone coverage in "The Great Iraq Swindle," subtitled "From phony bids to invoicing orgies, how Bush allowed an army of for-profit contractors to invade the U.S. treasury.") We're talking about thousand-dollar toilet seats, $100-a-load washaterias, and empty truck runs across southern Iraq, the deadheaded drivers dodging I.E.D.'s. These runs were made because the profiteers charge by the trip, not by the load.
No, no. Vietnam can't hold a candle to this tragedy. At least with Vietnam we could share the blame with the French, who were there before us. In Iraq, we've gone it alone -- on orders from a lunatic who doesn't even know the difference between Opec and Apec, Austria and Australia. The shame of the nation! This dangerous madman who regularly tells us God has blessed his every step shouldn't be impeached; he should be locked up in an institution for the criminally insane.
Go, Wexler! He's one of my favorite Congressmen. That was a terrific take down of Patraeus.
[...] before, and we’re being had here, so is that’s what’s happening?” See the video and transcript, or the video of Ackerman on when things will get better [...]
47 James M. Martin
"...Scuds were so inaccurate that the only-slightly-more accurate Patriots knocked enough of them out to minimalize the damage to the Israelis."
I beg to differ on this point. Not one Patriot Missle knocked down a SCUD. Not one.
I also suggest you look at the Carlyle Group:
George H. W. Bus
Former
US President and
Vice President
Former Director
of the CIA
Carlyle
Senior Advisor
Frank Carlucci
Former Secretary of Defense and
Deputy Director
of the CIA
Carlyle
Chairman Emeritus
James T. Baker
Former
Secretary of State
and Sec. of Treasury
Carlyle
Senior Counselor
And here is a video.
In a nutshell The Carlye Group is a private company made up of former Presidents, Defense Department Officials and Policy Makers that buys up Defense Contractors. When we go to war, they make billions.
Rosanne @ 43:
Well, don't forget this is the same guy who nobody had heard of before he said "I like to do cocaine because it's a fun thing to do" on the Colbert Report, and how it's even more fun if you do it with prostitutes. :-)
Unforunately many current Bush talking heads don't know much about history. The reference is likely lost in the fog of Iraq support.
This "surge" strategy is a Bush/Cheney shell game. Moving the goalposts to meet their agenda.
George W Bush leaves this mess-o-potamia to us and the next president.
db @ 52:
Bill O'Reilly has a BA in history. Problem is he has the same concept of history as Hegel. Something to justify his own ends.
Don't get mad; earn from it. Buy gold and short the US dollar into the dust bin of history.
James Martin:
We are long past the point of debating bush's intelligence, or lack thereof. I am in agreement with you, James, the man is mentally unhinged, to say the least. History will condemn us all for our association with him by virtue of simply being Americans, just as the legacy of Germany will forever be stained by their former leader Hitler.
The troops should begin deserting in droves.
crazylove @ 57:
"Um...Let me see...should i go north? No, they want to kill me that way. South? No, they want to kill me that way. East? No, they want to kill me that way. West? No, they want to kill me that way."
midnight rambler @ 51:
Hahaha, yes! That's what I was going to say!
I listened to qui9tye a bit of it on the UW NPR affiliate today.
Patraeus is a creamed vegetable, another Bush douche-bag.
period.
He seemed like a nice guy, and was probably a good soldier until a few years ago.
But he made the bargain with Bush, and like Colin Powell, that bargain is come to come back to destroy any cred he has left.
You don't deal with the Devil and come out on top.
He should know that. But apparently, he doesn't. What the heck does he think Bush is going to do for him besides replace him with another butt-kisser when the time comes?
[...] just before giving perhaps the most anticipated war progress report in almost thirty years? Was the ghost of generals past in [...]
xoites defends Constitution @ 58:
But wouldn't that leave bush without an army to achieve his ends?
Anyone have what he said in response? I would like to hear exactly what he had to say against that strong, if not long winded, speech.
Radically Moderate @ 4:
Watched the whooole thing. Nothing but Petraeus Whitehouse Spin (registered trademark)
The Democrats have the same stock portfolios as the Repugs. Heavy in Halliburton and energy stocks.
They have nothing to gain by ending the war.
They do not want the war ended because it makes the Repugs look like crap hounds. They want George Bush's War going until November 2008 so that they'll win big.
They are betting that our disgust at the Republican-created war will be marginally greater than our disgust at the lack of Dem backbone.
What will the next president do? Who knows. Depends on if the American people are still too stupid to realize that we're being robbed blind by the "war" (read: largest looting of a national government's treasury in history.)
Wexler is my congressman and I'm damn proud of him. Always have been.
It's *all* a dog-and-pony show, folks. Unless Congress wants to get off their collective arses, cut off funding, and rescind the AUMF - Bush will keep doing what he wants to do.
It's nice to see someone actually say "They were lying then it is assumed you are lying now."
Of course it won't actually CHANGE anything but it's nice to see them pretend they aren't going to roll over like a needy puppy looking to have it's belly rubbed.
Thing Fish @ 54:
Bush has a college degree, too. Degrees don't make you intelligent, they make you educated, only in Bush's case, considering his lack of intellectual curiosity and aversion to reading materials of any kind, this, too, is doubtful.
xoites defends Constitution @ 50:
Well, there's only one real conclusion I drew from this speech---- Iran strike coming soon....real soon! Anyone with doubts I'm taking bets. I'll give odds. That's how sure I am..... Takers?
Radically Moderate @ 4:
In no way did Patraeus give Wexler an atomic wedgie so to speak (unless there was a part afterwards where he physically did such a maneuver). He basically said that he wanted to end the surge anyway and was sending brigades home even though they could keep the surge going until April. Patraeus then said his reports are reliable because their data set extends another 5 weeks further then the GAO report.
Of course while it was legitimate to point out that the surge was ending anyway, he did nothing to address the issue of most of the troops would be in Iraq for many years to come under current plans. Also, his defense of the report was weak considering that there were multiple reports of increased violence, not just the GAO, or the fact that he didn't deal with the underlying problem of taking flawed statistics in the first place.
So sure, if you want to look at things from a very superficial view point I suppose he answered the question, probably enough to convince the brain-washed freepers that he gave Wexler an 'atomic wedgie'. However, in view of the larger issues at stake that were mentioned by Wexler, his answer was pretty lame.
SpankyTheMonkey @ 71:
I few months ago I might have taken that bet, but unfortunately too much evidence is piling up that yes, indeed the administration is stupid enough to attack or at least bomb Iran and that what is going on maybe more then sable rattling.
I should point out that the ultimate sign that an attack is about to happen isn't sable rattling, but a complete cut of information and communication concerning Iran. If all of a sudden nobody talks about or to Iran, that's when they are going to strike.
General. Look people in the eye when they are talking to you. These are your bosses. Imagine if a private wrote while you were talking to them.
Like many learned Americans, my emotions have run the gamut from outrage to depression to impotence. Right now, even though glimmers of fleeting moments of possible opposition (perhaps even call this one "finding backbone"), pop onto the void that passes for reality, they fizzle fast.
Not in my lifetime will we be "out" of Iraq. The problems we have created loom so large as to block out the sun. An entire generation of children living in every country of the Middle East will hate us and vow to destroy us. We will pump money into Iraq forever. Foreign aid at the least; our sons and daughters mostly -- dead, maimed, ruined. Visions of trash heeps and circling black birds and starving children haunt this nation.
Is it any wonder I have stopped thinking or caring that any leader will emerge in this abyss?
And we speak of those 59,000 names (or thereabouts) carved on the stygian darkness of that wall in our capital. Tell me. For what did they give their last full measure? I want to know. Because, if we say this war repeats our mistakes, our hubris, our folly. Then surely the next momument must answer? And for me, the answer will be the same: they died for NOTHING.
Radically Moderate @ 14:
Right, because only an America hater would have the audacity to point out that you can't make ice cream from crap. Only a commie liberal would suggest that kind of "reality-based" response. That would be treasonous...to point out the truth to the grand delusional leader and stand for the constitution you swore to uphold. Good point! Killing young men and women to make crap look like ice cream is just the patriotic American way, right?! I think W would like the logic though. If you get paid to betray the constitution and the people who serve under you it's OK because you're getting paid to do it!
I do love the way everyone has been hanging on every word Petraeus has to say about
HOW SUCCESSFUL HE'S BEEN AT DOING HIS JOB. What would you expect from a careerist military man who never met a war he didn't like? An honest evaluation?
Oh, course things are getting better...Of course we should hang in there.....of course, of course, of course.
James M. Martin @ 69:
James M. Martin @ 69:
Down here in Missouri we had a scandal a few years back involving how one of the Wal-Mart heirs, Paige Laurie, got through college by having a really smart student as USC do all her work for her.
It explained volumes to me about how our fearless leader got through Yale.
But, like his service records, we'll never find the proof of anything.
As far as the Carlyle Group goes, that is all this war is about. Max profits for daddies holdings. Higher stock price. Why do you think Bush is trying to eliminate estate taxes, dividend taxes, et al? Daddy ain't gonna live forever you know....
Does anyone have the transcript or video of the one Representative who cited the oil company from Texas was getting a stronghold in Iraq and much more???? It was supposedly written up in a newspaper that he quoted.
I caught part of it but it certainly would answer why Bush/Cheney (2 oil men) want to stick it out there till the dirty deals are done till they leave office
Seems from that statement the Rep. stated was this Administration is using our Military for their profiteering and in my eyes would constitute being criminal.
Rep. Wexler may not have been questioning Petraeous' credibility and honesty, but I am. I'm not questioning his patriotism, which is a psuedo-religion with him, a cult. But because it is a psuedo-religion to him, I am also questioning his judgment. After viewing his performance, I would lay upon him the worst evalutation that any military officer could ever receive: His judgment and he, as a man, cannot be trusted.
At very best, Petraeus is a fool. A complete fool. More likely, he is a fool and a liar. Same goes for Crocker.
I want to refine a question that was asked: Being that this war has not been initiated or waged for the good of either America or the Iraqi people, but only for the profit of a few corporations, when the names go up on the eventual momument, how many will be on it?
To my eyes, it appears that our armed forces aren't being used for defense, they're being prostituted out to aristocratic corporate houses of neo-fuedalism for purposes of empire and profit. If that is so, then every American life lost or ruined was a waste, and every Iraqi life lost or ruined was a murder and a crime.
There are going to be books written about this moment in American history. The legitimate scholarly works are not going to be kind to Crocker, Petraeus or the members of Congress who have abetted this fraud.
All you Liberal assholes wouldn't know patriotism if it jumped up and bit you in the ass. The General knows exactly what he is doing and these numb-nut politicians should leave war to warriors. GET A LIFE
Two disagreements with Wexler:
He SHOULD doubt Petraeus's credibility, based on a clear track record of NOT being credible.
And he should retract his claim that Petraeus is a "true patriot". He is anything but.
Getting the report from Petraeus is like getting the report from the fox who's guarding the henhouse. Come on, he can, with a straight face, say we're making progress. What else can he say? No, let's throw in the towel and go home? That wasn't his mission; they didn't give him a command to fail; how idiotic can you get, if you expect an objective report from this man? He probably even believes he's objective and telling the truth. So the beat goes on ... so the war and the killing and the stupid spending of money continues.
Look, Bush has a history - a history, a long line of past events that always ended the same way - of taking someone who is good and perverting them. Powell is one example. Rice is another. These good people go to work for Bush's administration and get sucked in. Then they either toe the line and lie, lie, lie; or they deceive themselves about the fact that they're lying and think it's the truth; or they get so disgusted they resign; or they try to tell the truth and get fired by Bush. Nothing complicated about that. It's Bush's history.
Vietnamvet @ 82:
Patriotism is NOT blind faith in one's "leaders". To me patriotism IS questioning, IS putting our leaders feet to the fire, IS holding them accountable for their GROSS misdeeds.
I think what you speak of sir, may well be jingoism, NOT patriotism.
And just because Petraeus may well know what he's doing...if what he's doing is wrong, then these "numbnut" politicians are absolutely 100% justified by grilling him.
Wexler for president. Nuff said.
Vietnamvet @ 82:
Bush is the biggest numb-nut politician in the world. Don't you think HE, to use your words, should leave war to the warriors?
Vietnamvet @ 82:
So, fill me in: What is so patriotic about continuing to keep ourselves in the middle of Iraq's Civil War?
Dr. Acula @ 87:
OH SNAP!!!!
Vietnamvet @ 82:
Apparently you wouldn't know incompetence if it crawled up your ass and brought you to orgasm. As long as the General continues to lie to Congress and the American people about the situation on the ground he will always remain part of the problem and not the solution. If you actually are a Vietnam Vet, then you would know how serious a problem it is when a subordinate lies to their chain of command, which is exactly what Patraeus appears to be doing here.
Also, you seem to be posting here as well as us, what does that say about your life? Or are we suppose to get a life because we are critical of a corrupt administration, when the only way to counter unchecked corruption is through public awareness and action stemming from the ground up?
Vietnamvet @ 82:
Being a patriot is questioning authority. You dittoheads, hannity freaks, coulter ss troops and O'really talking point repeaters are the ones that are not being patriotic. When we as a nation don't question the "deciders" we open the door for tyrants. True patriots are the ones that pay attention to all news sources and are willing to question leadership. Vietnam Vet, if you are a truly a vet, I honor your service, but if you are a patriot, take your blinders off and look at the real world. In other words, you GET A LIFE.
Vietnamvet @ 82:
Yeah you're right. Petraeus knows he's lying.
I find it pretty much the height of irony that war pimps claiming to be vets get all up in everyone's grills over exercising what is is these 'vets' claim to have fought for-our freedoms.
STFU. See how it feels, Vietnamvet-if you really are one, to have someone tell you to stifle your words, thoughts, feelings? Just STFU.
If you really are a vet, then you'll recall how spot on the generals and war pimps, such as yourself and past administrations were about 'Nam. And Korea, for that matter. Not.
Dr. Acula @ 87:
Oh SNAP, Dr.
Vietnamvet @ 82:
Obviously then that means that some of the Repub. who are now questioning the rational of this war are not patriotic. The debate and the problems of this war are not a Democratic or Repulican issue. IT IS AN AMERICAN ISSUE! Most of those still gun-ho havent served a day in their life in the military. And you notice I said MOST of them....including the Prez and VP.
Generals ONLY follow the orders they are given from on high. They are the ones who make sure our troops and everyone under them follow the orders dictated. He is there like a school teacher is in a classroom. ONLY TO BE CERTAIN THAT ORDERS FROM ON HIGH ARE MET.....nothing more.
They (top Generals) get those stars by obeying the administration and not questioning anything asked of them. They, top Generals) what the Military commonly refers to as "the Powerpoint Rangers" are merely the main tool to be certain that our troops and their commanders follow orders. Many are book smart and common sense dumb. Getting those stars on their collar is their goal and many dont care how those stars get there, just so they do. Makes for a mighty great retirement dont ya know!
What a disgusting display by Rep. Wexler. He obviously wasn't there to question the report but, rather, to politically pontificate to his leftist constituents in Palm Beach. Wexler wouldn't know what Honor, Courage and Commitment or Duty, Honor, Country mean if someone wrote out the definitions of it out for him. I hope his 30 pieces of silver are a comfort to him.
Rep. Wexler is not worthy to polish the boots of a PFC.
I can't help but notice that this PIECE OF SHIT so-called-general DOES NOT LOOK at Wexler as he is addressed for the ENTIRE TIME! BetrayUS is a snake.
MCPO Airdale @ 95:
Respectfully, sir (or madam), I say that you are full of shit.
According to Rep. Wexler's background, he received his Bachelor of Arts degree in political science in 1982 and law degree from The George Washington University Law School in 1985. Which has ALOT more cred than the Chimp in Chief. And no doubt you, too.
BetrayUS is just another bush schlug who is bending numbers to please his master. BetrayUS wants (and has probably been granted) a future in politics for doing so. I understand you are loyal to the military and I suppose that is wonderful SO LONG as you do NOT blindly back the mission like some god damn robot without a seconds thought of your own. What I see here is just more of the same. I have watched this administration LIE and KILL my countrymen and send troops off into this fucking quagmire under the veil of "fighting for our nation"... and to that I say this invasion (IT IS NOT A WAR and has NEVER been declared a war) has NEVER been about fighting for our nation.
The General just sat there and scribbled on a piece of paper and didn't even have the courtesy to look Wexler in the face.
[...] Crooks and Liars [...]
The General just sat there and scribbled on a piece of paper and didn’t even have the courtesy to look Wexler in the face.
Isn't the inability or unwillingness to make eye contact one of the "tells" that reveals when one is lying?
Thing Fish @ 42:
The General knew he was on camera. Writing was one part dismissive, one part protective. No photographed flinch for the masses.
The play's the thing.
Barbara Tuchman's excellent book "The March of Folly: From Troy to Vietnam" dissects America's blunder into the Vietnam conflict as an example of why and how governments pursue policies that are contrary to their own interests. She attributes the mistakes of the Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon administrations to "follies", including over-reaction ("the invention of endangered 'national security', the invention of 'vital interest', the invention of 'commitment' which rapidly assumed a life of its own..."); the "illusion of omnipotence"; "wooden-headedness", which she also describes as the "Don't-confuse-me-with-the-facts habit"; a refusal to "take the enemy's grim will and capacity into account; and "'working the levers' as a substitute for thinking", or the "absence of reflective thought about the nature of what we're doing".
If all of the above "follies" are strongly reminiscent of the current US "surge" strategy, it is surely no coincidence. These are the only comparisons between the Vietnam war and the Iraq occupation worth making, and the only ones from which tangible lessons for the present quagmire can be drawn.
MCPO Airdale @ 95:
You must have been watching another clip then I missed then, because the question as to why the his report is telling a different story then every other source of information is pretty critical and anyone who doesn't ask it is not doing his/her job. He is also there to serve to his constituents, so if his actions are for their benefit, then he is doing what he is suppose to be doing and acting as a representative of his Florida constituents. I'm not getting why you then try to paint him as a traitor after already admitted that he acting on behalf of his constituents. On whose behalf is he really suppose to be asking questions then, Haliburton?
Really, that's a pretty poorly thought troll, throwing insults at someone with no reasoning behind it isn't going to convince anyone of anything other then that you're a hateful person.
Are the Dems finding their spines?
More to come...
Attention Liberals: How would you run things? How would you protect us from the terrorists? How would you protect our borders? How will you stop ALL (both parties) government corruption? How will you save Social Security? When will you present a qualified candidate for President?
These questions are meant to be serious. I would appreciate some meaningful, serious answers.
Vietnamvet @ 106:
As in Egalitarian state in which everyone had the opportunity to get ahead through hard work and had access to the basics of life including health care. Anything above these basics they would have to work for.
By being less conspicuous on the world scene while still being active on the world stage. By not overreacting to any one event and avoiding full scale invasion except when war is explicit declared and full permission and corporation from the UN is achieved, especially if not in response to any actual threat or attack against the US. Terrorism can easily curbed worldwide between the use of special forces, intelligence and maintaining goodwill in the international community. It's worked in Indonesia which unlike Iraq had some connection to 9/11, and there is no reason to believe it won't work nearly anywhere else in the world as well.
If we absolutely must invade another country as a last resort when they fail to respond to diplomacy and we are certain they linked to an attack on the US such as arguably the case of Afghanistan, we do the job right and don't rely on mercenaries. Instead of staying past the breakup of the whatever terrorists groups are in the countries we hand it over to the UN like we did in the Balkans.
How would you protect our borders? This is tricky subject to deal with all the illegals already in the US, but a secure border is something that everyone should be able to agree on. Also cracking down on the corporations and individuals who utilize illegal labor would do much to discourage immigration, as well as finding ways to address the issues in Mexico that lead to suppressed wages and poverty and thus the need to cross into the US. Illegal immigration from Canada is certainly less of an issue then in Mexico, alot of that is from a much stronger economy, but government plays a big part as well in their case.
By addressing the issue of where most of the corruption comes from, lobbyists. Take the need of huge amounts of money to campaign out of the equation and individuals won't be as beholden to special interests. Give all candidates with a minimum of support airtime and coverage. Extend laws already in effect to curb the growth of special interests, and break up news monopolies whenever possible. Reinvigorate public spaces and public organizations to get people talking and working together more so they are more interested in the public weal. Read 'Bowling Alone' by Robert Putnim to get a better understanding of what I'm talking about.
By properly funding it. Aside from that the program works fine as is. Demographics have changed, but social security still isn't a disaster then some neocons wish you to believe it is. Suggestions about free market versions such as what was touted by GWB shouldn't be taken seriously. They've been tried before in other places, such as Chili if I remember correctly, with pretty poor results.
We have what we have, especially since I doubt anyone is going to get Al Gore to run at this point. Who the Democrats are running is still a huge improvement over the clowns the Republicans are sending up this year. Besides, as I believe Obama pointed out once that Dick Cheney is proof that experience will prevent you from making disastrous decisions.
Well other people might have come up with different or better answers, but this should give you some idea of where liberals are coming from hopefully. Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes beforehand, don't have time to really proofread.
Lord of Karma @ 107:
Outstanding response...I would never have been able to articulate as well....Hell Karma, why don't you throw your hat in the presidential ring?
Thanks for the support :). Unfortunately, the constitution would bar me from running this time due to age restrictions. Maybe next time.
Lord of Karma @ 109:
No prob....Constitution? But didn't Bushy say .t was just a god-damned piece of paper? ;)
Anyone who thinks Congressman Wexler made some a valid point and that the report by GEN Patreus was wrong, skewed or even an outright lie honestly does not know what they are talking about. The full truth of the matter is not being presented to the American public. As an American serviceman, I've been over there, I've seen what's happening, I've read the operations plans and orders that were set forth to do this thing right. People like Congressman Wexler really do nothing more that political grandstanding. People who follow the line of reasoning he tried to use do not know what the facts really are. It's frustrating to hear folks making comments on a subject they think they know about when they really don't. Please don't be mislead or duped by the mainstream media. And don't forget...this is not a "War on Iraq"...the a Global War on Terrorism. We have several fronts on which this war is being waged, not just Iraq...but that doesn't get much lipservice from mainstream media. Why? Because we are actually winning, and that doesn't look good for folks who desperately want to find any way they can to discredit anyone in the administration. The best they can do is try to put a negative spin on the Iraqi campaign, and that doesn't even truly stick. WAR IS NOT FUN, NOT PRETTY, AND NOT PREFERED...but sometimes you have to stand against those who are absolutley determined to hit you no matter what you do. And, by the way, when was the last time we had an attack on our soil? Six years ago. Why? We are taking the fight to the enemy and keeping it away from our friends, families and fellow citizens. If we back down in any way...WE ALL LOOSE because they will be coming. I know from experience.
[...] The fact is that the only reason anyone would doubt the word of General Petraeus in his testimony before Congress is because that person is a Liberal Communist who hates the troops. [...]
PADmsc @ 111:
First...thanks for serving our country
Second...there were NO TERRORISTS in Iraq until we got there...we're the only nation in history to turn a non-terrorist state into a terrorist state...
Third...I would like this administration to concentrate more on finding Bin Laden...you know, the asshole that was ACTUALLY responsible for 911...instead of sending more of our troops to die needlessly in Iraq, which has been proven to have had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with 911...
Fourth...I do support our troops, but I DO NOT, WILL NOT, CAN NOT support this blatanly corrupt and criminal administration...BushCo, and the cronies that he's appointed have all but ruined this nations credibility worldwide, virtually destroyed the constitution, and seems to be on the verge of becoming a dictatorship...I ask you this...will YOU follow orders given by a fascist dictator? Or will you stand with your countrymen to bring this country to it's once and future greatness.
Oh and this administration seems to be doing a superb job of discrediting themselves...people like me just point out their fuckups...I do admit getting a wee bit of morbid pleasure watching the neocons being hoist by their own petards.
Surely you can't be a BushCo supporter at this point...don't you realize, he, Dick (Shotgun) Cheney, or anyone else in this troglodyte, philistine administration gives a damn about you?! All they care about is OIL, AND THE BILLIONS THEY"RE MAKING from defense contracts, all the no bid contracts to halliburton, blackwater, etc. etc... that I believe, is called war profiteering...and that's unacceptable..I agree, we civilians might not see or hear everything thats going on, but we know when we're getting fucked! This administration has blatanly lied since day one!!!
WMD's in Iraq, my ass!!!!
That being said, again I thank you for serving this country. If you're still over there, or are going back...get back home safe and with all your original parts. Peace!
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