Hardball: The question of credibility
By Nicole Belle Monday Sep 10, 2007 11:41am
MoveOn's ad questioning Gen. Petraeus's credibility was certainly the talk of the town yesterday. Leave it to Chris Matthews on Hardball to get right to the bottom of it by conducting one of the most frustrating interviews ever of MoveOn's Eli Pariser and DailyKos's Markos Moulitsas. Is he just congenitally unable to let people finish their answers uninterrupted?
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Markos puts questions of the ad's appropriateness into perspective:
To me, you know, way out in California, it's almost amusing to see how in Washington DC, everybody is all up in arms over an ad. You know, we're in the middle of this bloody war, almost 4,000 dead, half a trillion dollars spent, and people are going to talk about how inappropriate an ad is? I think it's patently ridiculous. And most people, outside of this sort of Beltway environment really don't care about an ad. They want to see our men and women coming home, safe and sound to their families.
Markos also lands some solid jabs at the recalcitrance of the Democrats to play a stronger role in bringing an end to the war.
Ezra Klein and Jeffrey Feldman weigh in on the Republican politics of distraction.
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Usurping the "F"
Moulitsas is dead on here. We the people are trying to talk about a war that has killed probably three quarters of a million people. The powers that be are trying to distract us with nonsense about the "appropriateness" of a God damned newspaper ad. The media should spend their time discussing how appropriate it was for them to collude with the administration in selling us this war, and now the so called surge. They play these games to manipulate us into missing the real point. We're talking about thousands of dead people because the President isn't man enough to admit a mistake, and the congress isn't brave enough to do what they were elected to do.
Killing and dying, that is only about human beings. But political advertising denouncing those who love waging war for profit, why that is sacrilege against the hallowed corporate structure.
The ad sounds like something I would expect from an 8th grader, the repugnacan reaction to the ad is what I would expect from a 2nd grader.
More than a million people have died as a direct result of Bush's war.
I'm not aware of any battles that General Westmoreland Petraeus has fought in. What battles are McCain referring to?
It's the new journalism.
[...] Markos Moulitsas puts questions of the Move On ad
Chris Matthews is such a cock knuckle.
"Don't you think the General is a shit eating, baby molesting, cat rapist, asshole?"
Just typical right-wing tactics...try to deflect attention from the real issue (Iraq) onto a non-issue (an ad)...nobody's falling for it anymore.
Why doesn't someone point out W's personal stake in this war?
He stands to make a lot of dough in the future by speaking to wingnuts, but only if he keeps the war going thoughout his presidency. If he saw the light and bailed on his war, he wouldn't get a dime from these groups.
They want him to remain the wanker that he is, because they need to be wanked into perpetuity.
Mathews is channeling Bill O in this. he is so angry in this interview at moveon
Why do they never see the hypocrisy of their actions? Demanding an apology from the democrats for an ad that they had nothing to do with while NEVER apologizing for anthing THEY do?
OT I saw Hagel slamming Betrayus in the hearings this morning. Heard there were tougher questions being asked today. Guess thats why its not on all channels like yesterday. Damn liberal media.
Speaking of democrats playing a stronger hand...
They're now backing away from citing Meiers and Bolten for contempt. Shrewd move, chickenshits:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0907/5750.html
The money quote from that quivering tower of crap, Rahm:
“I don’t think anything is going to happen on that for a while,” said House Democratic Caucus Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Chickenshit, Ill.).
Wouldn't be prudent.
Nice work, Markos. Hit a lot of points there.
Why didn't Pariser correct Tweety's idiotic assertion that the 'betrayal' he was punning on wasn't treason - consorting with the enemy - but simply a betrayal of trust vis-à-vis the public, who have every right to expect him to testify honestly about the success or failure of the policy they are bankrolling (both in blood and resources). No one said he was working with al-Qaeda.
Typical of Kerry to play it safe. Weasel.
tweety's all over the map on this ...
suck up to Markos
but paint Eli as pinging the needle all the way over on the kook scale
Going into 2008, the Repubs know their tenuous position, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to give up. The next six months will see an increasing amount of time devoted to MediaMatters, KOS, Huffington, and yes C&L et al. There will be an increasing number of posters decrying the Democrats as spineless, ineffective, and trivial. There will also be many more Repubs switching hats, and running as Dems. They have to do these things, what else have they got?
I thought their responses were dead on, the only thing I didn't like hearing was Kos saying everyone has given up. It's a change in strategy that we are wanting. We're not giving up on the troops or our effort to stop terrorism -- the only thing I can see people giving up on is this administration. I wish he would have been more clear as to not fall prey to the misused sound bite.
[...] Posted by Rusty Idols DailyKos
Of course they're pissed about the ad. They've spent the last six months trying to create an image for Petraeus as some great military mind whose conclusions should be beyond reproach. They tried to give him an aire of infallibility. Naturally, they don't mention he was in charge of training the Iraqi troops who were going to stand up so we could stand down. Nor, do they mention the missing 200,000 weapons while he was in command. Petraeus is a tool just like Powell. Too much hard work has gone into image creation to have it jeopardized by the truth.
personally i think it is glaringly obvious--
patraeus is serving at the direction of the white house. he is simply following orders to present an obvious spin on what is happening in iraq. his 'prestige' is on the line, and the white house has cornered him into giving a glowing account of the change in tactics. (why do people keep calling it a strategic change, anyway?), which has failed. he and bush are in the same basket and have to support each other in order to save face (not that bush has "face" left). in all, the white house has treated him like a pet gerbil.
the statistics are skewed and misleading. the GOAL of the surge has failed. and yet patreaus says "the surge is working" and every MSM news model is quick to report what? ah yes, the surge is working. the news media has learned nothing from its failures.
to me he has proven to be GOPatraeus.
and, from the waaaay back machine, here is gen petraeus from a wash post oped (notice that this was right before the '04 election. coincidence? i think not):
"Now, however, 18 months after entering Iraq, I see tangible progress. Iraqi security elements are being rebuilt from the ground up.
The institutions that oversee them are being reestablished from the top down. And Iraqi leaders are stepping forward, leading their country and their security forces courageously in the face of an enemy that has shown a willingness to do anything to disrupt the establishment of the new Iraq."
3 years ago petraeus "saw" progress. tangible progress, nonetheless. and now he tells us the "surge is working." does michael gerson write patreaus' propaganda?
WASHINGTON - September 10 - Rev. Lennox Yearwood, Jr., president of the Hip Hop Caucus, was attacked by six capitol police today, when he was stopped from entering the Cannon Caucus Room on Capitol Hill, where General Petreaus gave testimony today to a joint hearing for the House Arms Services Committee and Foreign Relations Committee on the war in Iraq.
After waiting in line throughout the morning for the hearing that was scheduled to start at 12:30pm, Rev. Yearwood was stopped from entering the room, while others behind him were allowed to enter. He told the officers blocking his ability to enter the room, that he was waiting in line with everyone else and had the right to enter as well. When they threatened him with arrest he responded with "I will not be arrested today." According to witnesses, six capitol police, without warning, "football tackled" him. He was carried off in a wheel chair by DC Fire and Emergency to George Washington Hospital.
Rev. Yearwood said as he was being released from the hospital to be taken to central booking, "The officers decided I was not going to get in Gen. Petreaus' hearing when they saw my button, which says 'I LOVE THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ.'"
Capitol Police are not saying what the charges are, but an inside source has said that the charge is assaulting a police officer. Rev. Yearwood is scheduled to be transferred to Central Processing to be arraigned tomorrow morning.
The incident was recorded by an observer and is available on YouTube WhyNotNews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiradc...
For further information contact: Liz Havstad at liz@hiphopcaucus.org or 510-206-6749.
Bit NOLA @ 10:
Somebody made a good point about W pulling out of Iraq. They said if he did, the 30% dead-enders would still support him and I believe that's true. They're sold on W no matter what he does. If he did pull out, they'd still worship him and criticize us for still not following him when he did what we wanted. Of course, they'd be deaf to the issue that we lost thousands for nothing, but that's wingnut mentality for you.
They're not Republicans. They're not conservatives. They're Bushites.
dasein @ 17:
Wrong.
Hardball is breaking the formula! Don't they know they are supposed to have someone from the extreme left and someone from the extreme right? Only then can we get the bickering and overtalking that is "NEWS" today.
Rep Bohner (read boner) is going to introduce a resolution in the house to say that the Dems do not support that ad. :roll:
I saw this on the C-span crawl today.
pissed off patricia @ 25:
Why would Boner do that?
Tweety wasn't as bad with this interruptions as he usually is. But you're right; it's very frustrating to watch/listen to one of his shows. You want to slap him to make him shut up.
On a personal note, I'm always glad to see someone poke the right in the ribs and make them jump and shout. I would not have run the ad myself, but I'm not sorry that Moveon did.
Dr. Acula @ 26:
To show their solidarity with the Republican Party. they are putting aside partisan differences and issues and coming together by adopting Republican ideals.
What's wrong with some of you people? Didn't actually listen? Matthews not only got both of these guys on TV but they made there cases and he agreed with them. He asked perfectly reasonable questions about reactions to the ad. Mathhews clearly hates Bush's war. He didn't always but he does now. It is so typical of the left, of which I am a part, to spend more time fighting with the people who don't EXACTLY agree with them than the ones on the completely opposite side.
Taarak @ 16:
They have to set up the narrative. The minute Kos endorses a candidate, Bill O'Reilly will jump all over it and let his viewers know. I have a feeling that he waged his little battles with Daily Kos and Media Matters to plant a seed in their peabrains.
Dr. Acula @ 26:
distract from the obvious spin emanting from the patraeus/crocker cheerleading section.
also, try to put dems in a spot where they either agree with moveon (which the GOpigs will spin--inaccurately--as anti-military), or they disagree allowing the repubs and the MSM to portray patraeus as even more of a god than they already do.
The ad was successful. It got the attention of the media and has the reich-wing howling. It doesn't get any better than that. Congrats Eli!
lvogt @ 29:
I have to agree here, the interview I just watched was entirely supportive, and helped both of them look more confident and sure of their answers. Explanations were good and not oversimplified, I call it a win, lets agree and move on.
Funny how the war whores bleat about remembering the 3000 people who lost their lives on 9-11, but when you mention that over 3000 have now died in Iraq, they respond it's only a number.
It's pretty bad when your military leaders are considered to be part of the spin machine. And once they become part of that monster, I say that any general becomes fair game. It is interesting that the good general went straight to FOX to remake his spin appeal. Gen. Petraeus could have done a news conference at the Pentagon broadcasted on CSPAN and fielded question from all the press.
In a democracy, the military is a professional class that reports the facts on the ground with transparency toward a stated goal. Petraeus's numbers are consider beyond review; hence, they are not transparent. Critical minds will treat the reported facts with suspicion. Also, the stated goal of this military misadventure is in constant flux and changes with the seasons -- election cycles that is.
Also, Sen. Kerry should have kept his opinions to himself. The poor soul just can't keep his mouth shut; especially, when he appears not to really know what the details are. Kerry fell in line with the usual Beltway glossarrhea that hits Demo politicians when television cameras are suddenly jabbed in their faces and they are asked about any issues of national security. You know the spiel - "Ah well, what are the conservative pundits saying and I kinda agree to agree with them." (And to reminisce when I held a campaign sign for him in 2004.)
I don't know why the hell boner would do it. He's falling into the trap the repubs set yesterday. They tried to put moveon and all dems in the same boat. Rather than ignore their little trick, he fell for it.
sundog @ 35:
Yup, once the General went on Fox he pretty much crossed the Rubicon.
[...] Posted by Rusty Idols DailyKos
Petraeus' Bio
Though he is Ranger-qualified, I can't tell how much of his career is at the 'sharp end,' i.e., in the field with the grunts.
At the end Matthews nicknames Markos "Archimedes".
Not bad!
Kos should have his own show. Enough of the retreads like Abrams and Carlson who have failed time after time in the ratings books
jr @ 41:
They could call it The Daily Kos Show!
I question that the question of crediblity is a credible question.
How about giving Eli his own show. The guy is so good at what he does.
pissed off patricia @ 36:
I haven't read about this; I must be missing something since Boner is a rethug. Sorry if I'm being obtuse.
Surging with no end in sight. Gee whiz, silly me -- I believed Busholini when he said the surge was "temporary".
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/11/iraq.senate/index.html
Marko's best point was that the troop reduction being touted is a requirement due to tour rotation, not anything to do with conditions on the ground.
The DC lawyers are chasing the ads because that's their excuse to chase funding. The GOP lawyers have no legal defense to war crimes: Their only hope is to change the issue from crimes to political funding.
Lawyers aren't defending the Constitution. They're defending their "right" to have unfettered access to influence legislation without oversight. They can't win a war; but they'll defend their right to bribe. Let's have a war crimes trial. Target the legal counsel complicit with these violations.
With all due respect, [Deleted. Trolling with flamebait-Sitemonitor]
Hahahaha, after they already noted how stunning it was that Washington was up in arms about an ad when the US was in an illegal unnecessary war wasting trillions, Chris still managed to end with saying we will argue forever about "that ad" instead of "this war". Do those brains ever work... at all? They say even a broken clock still has the time right twice a day but I'm thinking hardball is easily doing even worse than that.
Isaac @ 22:
Yep, most of 'em would rather sink with the ship than share a lifeboat with a Democrat. But some of them (the Bill Kristol types) do realize that pulling out now means admitting that we wasted thousands of lives for nothing. The "plan" is to stay the doomed course and blame the next skipper for abandoning ship. More wasted lives, sure, but it's the only face-saving way out for the neocons.
lvogt @ 29:
Exactly... you just got Moveon.org on one side of the split screen and DailyKos on the other side. When's the last time you saw THAT on an MSM outlet?
Yes, Matthews clearly took exception with the ad, but Eli held his ground and both he and Markos clearly and consistently made their points, almost in a "good cop" "bad cop" kind of way.
And in the end Matthews gives a pat on the back to Markos (and by extension to the entire blogosphere) by referring to him as "Archimedes".
FWIW, that's about as good as your gonna get from Hardball.
Several other generals wanted nothing to do with becoming Bush's War Czar (aka "fall guy/pimp") and declined. The fact is that General Betray-us had the perfect name for the job so he jumped on it. It goes along with Bush's "deck of cards mentality"....to him it's all a big "game".
V I E T N A M
R
A
Q
cynic @ 23:
Wrong, cynic? What was I wrong about, exactly? Where does it say in the article you link to that everyone has given up on the troops or stopping terrorism? My point is that the specific argument about redeployment should be in response to this failed administration and their war. You cocky asshole.
I'm a member of MoveOn and proud of 99% of what we've done, but that ad really did suck.
Jeez, Dr Acula, you're right. Maybe he was asking the dems to seperate themselves from the ad. Then if they don't he can say they approved of it.
That's what happens to my brain if I don't get enough sleep, it just quits on me and I become a goof ball.
well, that didn't appear as I wrote it. :(
Taarak @ 37:
For all the folks who support attacking the general personally, I give you the Swiftboat Veterans for Peace.
That being said, I'm tryin' so hard to give Patreaus the benefit of the doubt. He did a great job in Mosul during the invasion (I have no idea whether he was in direct battle-ever). But going on Fox was really stupid.
Seatech 1,
I would not have run the ad myself, but I’m not sorry that Moveon did.
I agree.
Goatsage,
The ad was successful. It got the attention of the media and has the reich-wing howling.
Good point!
Matthews is obnoxious. But has it ever occurred to any of his guests to say the following before the interview begins? "Chris, I'm going to answer any question you ask. But I insist you allow me to finish the answer before you interrupt and change the subject. If you won't promise me that, I'll leave now. O.K.?"
What is wrong with someone who allows a T.V. host to act like a bully? Do any of his guests ever get away with interrupting him?
Joementum @ 51:
You bet your bippy that want nothing to do with a clear admission of wasting thousands of human lives for absolutely "nothing"; in fact, in an international court where these clowns will finally end up (ala Nuremberg style - see recently leaked Red Cross report on the progress of the coming trial of Bushites and conspirators to the Iraq War by the international community)....Once they admit "guilt" in this horrendous breach of international law, it's over for all of them. They'll be marched off to jail or worse. This includes members of Bush Administration who have lied to the public as well as the members of PNAC (William Kristol included in this neo-fascist group), members of the Federalist Society, etc. who all worked in conspiracy to enter this country into the affairs of the Middle East well in advance of 911.
Just google PNAC to see who they are - you'll recognize them all because they're either sycophantic, demented "talking heads" or already convicted of criminal activities of one sort or another. The Federalist Society is involved in the DOJ attorney scandal.
Also just for kicks, google "Irving Kristol" who is known as the "grandfather of neo-fascism" and is the grandfather to none other than the sicko William Kristol.
Combine that with the known nazi facts about Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker and you've got the perfect prescription for the conversion of democracy to pure fascism.
Once Chris had his wife as his guest on the show. He didn't interrupt her a single time. I think she wears the serious pants in his family and won't stand for such rude behavior. He's like a little kid. He knows the rules at home but doesn't feel he has to follow them in another person's house.
49 Lewisnclark is spot on. I was shocked to see them (corporate media) providing progressives the same platform they give to conservatives - one of unopposed voices - which is why I don't take much solace in it. Indeed, it would have been more effective had Eli or Markos been able to take down some 'con with a reality check. Still, it's great to see Markos getting invited to these forums more often. (Ditto for Eli, albeit less often.)
And finally: Chris Mathews is such douchebag...
"the democrats need to start calling a spade a spade....."
It won't happen. They (the dems) pretend they are. It's all smoke and mirrors. The Democrats are part of the WarPigs little cabal just like the Republics. The opposing voices to the WarPigs war are just window dressing to continue the illusion our country is still a republic practicing democratic principles. The next prez will continue the occupation Iraq and most likely start hostilities with Iran if that hasn't happened before he/she takes office. Another military base is being built on the Iraq/Iran border. Our Government is not planning on leaving anytime soon. The gentleman was correct when he asked why are these elected officials getting all upset over an ad? When over the course of six years our Government has invaded and destroyed an innocent country and spilled the blood of close to 4,OOO of our military. Not to mention a trillion dollars wasted and the basic principles of our Constitution thrown into the garbage. All for oil, money and power. If any of our elected officials cared, Cheney, Bush and all his cronies would be gone by now.
Petraeus's report was a big 'ol fat pig with lipstick on it. We are being lied to and will continue to be lied to and it's just going to get worse. Like Betty Davis said, "Put on your seat belts, it's gonna be a bumpy ride." The sad and scary part is I don't think there is damn thing anyone can do about it.
I don't care for Tweety a whole lot but I don't think he was over the top on this particular interview?
dasein @ 55:
Neither the left nor the right likes Matthews which means I do. He has a point of view rather than a political position. Considering how right wing radio refers to moveon and Kos one would think the left would respect how these two were treated on an important political show. Matthews didn't have a right wing talking head on to yell at these guys but instead played the devil's advocate himself. If you read the right wing blogs today you will find that people claim Matthews is a flaming lib who kissed their asses.
It is not his job to pat them on the backs but rather to challenge their assertions and allow them to defend themselves. They both did well considering the moveon ad contained a childish title which was designed to get a reaction. Without the title no one talks about the ad and I understand that but a juvenile play on words should be beneath serious war critics.
cynic @ 66:
They got the oil:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118937908485121973.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
I think the Hunt family should pay the troops and their families for sacrificing blood and limbs for his oil deal.
Write that bill Boner.
Geez.
Bit NOLA @ 10:
And Cheney's interests. If the US military pulls out what happens to Halliburton and their no bid government contracts?
From Neil Bush's billion dollar S&L bailout at taxpayer expense to George Bush's half trillion dollar Iraq war the Bush Crime Family and their surrogates are great at running our country into the ground and using our resources for their personal fortunes and political gains. They are all a bunch of criminal thugs and should be treated as such. They should be brought to justice both at home and at The Hague.
sunset @ 61:
Weaseldog @ 28:
Solid boners? Ooh, I might be turning gay here.
Isaac @ 22:
Bush isn't the only one wih a vested interest in the war - every career military officer - especially field and general grade - remember the lean promotion days that follow the inevitable draw-down of forces following the cessation of hostilities.
I have to agree with others who did not find the above Hardball segment as advertised. I'm not a huge Matthews fan, but he seemed pretty restrained here and both his liberal guests got their say.
I'm split on the ad itself. One could say the inflamatory rhetoric of calling the general "Betray Us" was infantile and overshadowed the message that MoveOn was trying to present. Certainly much of the media I've heard has managed to sell the story of a sober adult general being smeared by a bunch of screaming radicals. On the other hand, if the ad didn't have the insulting hook, I doubt anyone would be discussing it at all. Much of the media seemed to be giving Bush's general a free ride, so by that standard, I'd call the ad a semi-successful piece of agit-prop.
I didn't think Matthews was that bad in this interview. He interrupted them only a couple times in the end. He also seemed to agree with that MoveOn guy eventually. That is not to say that Matthews can't be much worse. His style is very frustrating at times, especially the interrupting and the semi-homosexual fascination with Bush.
Honest George @ 73:
al-Qaeda's going out of business or something? Kim Jung-Il's packing it in? China ain't eyeballing Taiwan across the strait anymore?
There's no shortage of work for the military. Any draw-down will be the consequence of beating the troops into the dirt and good, loyal men and women leaving the service to return to their families.
(And, heck, if China makes certain moves, it can *still* be All About Oil.)
Shadowgm @ 76:
Don't worry, there are an infinite number of justifications that can be fabricated to give the war machine a reason to destroy nations.
Honest George @ 73:
DaveM @ 11:
I saw this interview differently.
Matthews asked about the ad - but did not condemn it.
I thought he gave Eli and Markos plenty of time to present their cases - and did not take issue with anything they said.
I was also stunned and pleasantly surprised at the unbridled praise Matthews gave to Markos.
He said Markos was like Archimedes...moving the world.
About GWB's interests in this war: doesn't he stand to inherit some money from the financial gains his old man made in the military-industrial complex through Carlyle Group investments?
Che's Lounge @ 59:
the problem is that petraeus injected himself into the debate, with a rosey outlook on operation iraqi liberation--3 years ago. right before the '04 elections, mind you.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49283-2004Sep25.html
he is less a straight shooter than he is the white house's general in iraq. and since when are generals treated like pseudo-saints? like criticising, questioning, or pointing out their hypocrisy is akin to blasphemy. bizarre.
petraeus is of dubious credibility because he has called his own credibility into question. he brought this upon himself. and the more one reads about the schemes he has used to "prove" that HIS surge tactic is working the less he represents the truth and the more he represents the spin.
and, repeating what others have said, i find it odd that so many people would be up in arms over the moveon ad, while the iraq clusterfuck continues to claim more and more lives.
consider this: generals CAN betray us. they can. and petraeus needed to show the american people that his intention was to be straightforward with the congress, and not try to spin the information. he did spin, though. he made it evident to the whole world that his job as general was to protect the white house, not america's interests. as the two are not related. hence: he betrayed the country.
Jesus! I think the big news from this clip is how Tweety kisses Marcos' ass.
You think the blogosphere isn't having an impact?
Woohoo!
Robert Lockwood Mills @ 60:
It would also be nice if he could take the time to learn the correct pronunciation of his guests names. That arogant ass repeatedly called Markos Moulitsas "Marcus Malitis." Maybe I'm being nit-picky here but goddamit it sounds like a bullying tactic to me.
Samson,
Thanks for that link. That about tears it for me. Patreaus is just another self serving tool. If he had any integrity, he would see that those glowing stats he gave in the WaPo article were worthless tripe to support the failed occupation. He should have retired instead of taking his current position as regional commander and Fox News analyst. Too bad. I tried to respect him, but that was a mistake.
The French after 9/11 said, "We are all Americans now." Then the republicans blew the greatest sense of solidarity with the U.S. since World War II.
Now the best the democrats can say is, "We are all republicans now." Since the American people no longer have representation in government to whom do they turn to address their greviences?
It has been stated that the only reason Americans are against the war is because we are losing it. That is an awful shallow belief, because the real reasons to be against this war is because it is immoral, illegal, and a terrible foreign policy that lost the allegience of those sympathetic toward democracy and freedom in the world.
For the democrats not to wage a war against those who lost the allegience of the world, and continue to engage in an illegal and immoral war by not bringing people who have inside knowledge of the machinations of this errant government is weak and reprehensible.
Contempt is contempt for all Americans, not just most of them.
Che's Lounge @ 84:
most welcome che~
the whole situation is just a friggin', pathetic mess.
and, like colin powell, petraeus is just another tool used by the bush political machine to provide cover for perpetual war and profiteering. he will be discarded soon by the bushies, as soon as he is no longer needed to shield bush (which he has done willingly).
they might have told petraeus they loved him before they screwed him, but they'll be gone when he wakes up in the morning.
The NIE, the GAO, and 16 intelligence agencies are all wrong?
I find nothing inherently wrong with the ad, at all. At worst it could have been more professionally done but it would have lost its impact. The use of the English language is so pathetic in this country that most don't know what the hell their reading to begin with. Betray and traitor are never synonymous. First, one is a verb while the other is a noun and second you do not have to be a traitor to betray someone or something. What MoveOn was implying was Petraeus' choosing to stay more loyal to a political ideal than to the American people. I agree.
Excellent piece by both Eli and Markos. Rarely if ever do you see 2 guys like this able to state their cases without the host trying to divert them with extraneous bullshit. Yes Tweety interrupted them. But at least they each got the time to state their case. And both made their case with skill and clarity. Markos is an absolute killer.
So, just HOW MANY GI's are dead in Iraq because of MoveOn vs.
the number dead because Rummsy sent in too few troops, or put
off ordering up armored Humvees.....
Tweety is a totally yo-yo, which every way the Republics send out
the talking points, he jumps....
Always remember that the general can do more push ups than an enlisted man.
Don't ask me why you should remember, but I read it at lest ten times today so it must be important.
Good going Eli and Markos!
How many arms did Petraeus lose in Iraq, because they weren't even writing down serial numbers?
I see, but it's OK to call a sitting U.S. Senator a terra-iss. What haven't they said about Barack Obama?
Edwin @ 94:
Or Hillary..or Gore...or Bill Clinton...or Edwards...
I think in this instance Matthews should get at least a little credit for saying this ad was necessary, because the Democrats in Congress are doing nothing to represent the 60%+ who want this war ended.
I didn't think the interview was frustrating. For the most part, Matthews listened (more than usual) and the 2 spokespeople were very effective at making short and concise, but meaningful, points.
Avenger @ 97:
I agree. For a moment there I thought Tweety had a man-crush on Markos. :)
I thought both Markos and Eli did quite well in this interview, considering the pressure and the venue. I was disappointed to see Kerry distance himself from the ad. No matter how stupid it was to use "Betray-us" in the ad, Kerry could have answered in a way that would maintain solidarity with the spirit in which the ad was created. I was glad to see Markos say that the uproar over the ad was beside the point. He stood behind MoveOn while not straying from the larger message. I couldn't even believe my ears when Matthews ended with: "Let me tell you, you are Archimedes here. You found the lever and you are working it to move the world, sir. You are moving the Democratic Party. Thank you sir for joining us."
Petraeus took the oath and is not living up to his end of the bargain. He is betraying us. Tweety is not the important issue here but it is obvious that he had his list of questions that he wanted to ask and ran through them as quickly as possible. This often appears to be what causes him to miss opportunities to change his tactic during his interviews. Ever noticed how weak his ad lib responses are when he does ad lib?
Patraeus should be removed and sent into retirement. He is worthless to us as a General in our U.S. Army if he can't be trusted to protect the best interests of our country.
Markos is totally correct. Who cares about an ad that most Americans will never see? I haven't seen it and don't care to honestly. And as Markos said we should be talking about what's going on in Iraq and getting out of there.
I don't even like Chris Matthews, but I thought he did a fine job on this interview...letting Eli & Markos complete their main talking points. Markos especially has
a very articulate, open style which allows his facts to stand on their own.
Well done all...
[...] it be because Mr. Proft is more worried about a friggin’ newspaper ad than bringing our brave soldiers and Marines home and finding the actual diabolical mastermind [...]
The ad distastes me. It seems like it could be a far-reaching black eye for the Democratic party that could continue to haunt it; in that the Republican right can continue to pretend as if this is a Coke vs. Pepsi partisanship with no universal, humanistic distinctions underneath.
Because that sort of title is just the kind of blitz war that perpetuates the illusion that there is such a thing as a left-wing "talking point." Which reduces all matters down to whose talking points you like better.
I hope the Democrats are resilient enough to make the most out of whatever inflation of exposure the ad gave them, but I do fear for how much mileage the Republicans will get out of this for free. The left has the responsibility to understand the professional distance military officials from the political sectors. It is inherently uncouth to go after the puppet in the show as if they truly would have anything to do about it and simply chose not to.
Might have been more constructive to attack the White House in an ad and bring forth to light the strangeness of how they "processed" the information themselves and handed a script to Petraeus to read.
andre
nice try
but the general has to be called on what he did
its a fucking ad
if this is all the repugs have to hang their hats on...they have nothing
and kerry makes me wanna puke
no backbone whatsoever
im sorry....but any general who is willing to put troops in harms way, then pull them out, just for politcal gain of one party....any general who goes up to capitol hill to baldface lie.....that general does not deserve respect, and is no hero
westmoreland did the same....he too was a traitor to his troops and his country
[...] In short, the clock has run out on the surge, and by any measure, the surge has failed. Update: As user BenGoshi notes, kos laid out the same facts on Hardball yesterday. You can see the clip at C&L. [...]
[...] In short, the clock has run out on the surge, and by any measure, the surge has failed. Update: As user BenGoshi notes, kos laid out the same facts on Hardball yesterday. You can see the clip at C&L. [...]
Does anyone think it ironic that John Kerry, a war hero whose patriotism was challenged by Republicans, would defend these hypocritical Republican attacks? At the very least, he could have said something like "I know from bitter experience what it's like to have your patriotism attacked after dedicating your life to your country."
Oh, and did someone mention Max Cleland?
Hi,
Thought this news might be of some interest to your readers:
NEW moveon.org TV ad coming out on Monday Sept 17th...basically calling President Bush a traitor.
Catch it here:
MoveOn.org TV Ad
For General David Betray Us fans or not:
General David Betray Us
Have a great weekend!
Steve
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