I thought I heard Randi Rhodes say today that Petreus campaigned for GWB.

This captures the noise machine which the MSM has become; I turned off my cable news channels (saved $40) a month; I am sick of the propaganda but I miss Keith O.

I hope the Dems can get real and do what the people want.

Support our troops, bring them home.

CentCom Chief Fallon has it right! I agree wholeheartedly with him and would add a few more names to the list

Fallon will soon be history and throw in a few guys on the Joint Chiefs just for fun. Six more months is a long time for a war but a short time for political payback.

“an ass-kissing little chickensh*t”

Like President, like general?

My first instinct is to criticize the "general", but the problem is right at the top. The "general" is only doing what he's told to do.

This bullshit has to end and we need Democrats with some spine to make it so.

Petraeus gladly bent over for Bush and then gave the finger to every American that believes they're all lying to us.

Yes,"no one" can predict what will happen in America's continuing occupation of Iraq,but leaving?Dear God!They have no problem describing-- in excrutiating and minute detail--what the grim consequences of THAT would be.

reminds me of the well documented history of Germany's attack on Russia. Hitler surrounded himself with a long list of sycophants each willing to carry out his will to further their careers. nearly all of them fell by the wayside as they could not for long carry out the fuhrer's will. those that survived were imprisoned or executed. some pledged allegiance even at the gallows.

Petreaus is a salesman............kinda sad when you think about it.oh well....fuck him and the whores he rode in on.

My take on the surge is Bush must stay the course in Iraq until he finds his excuse to attack Iran but I do not mean from land.
The troops and equipment must remain in Iraq too contain Iran. He is boxing them in! The chief idiot has more than enough armaments in the gulf with 3 carrier Battle groups and a french Carrier, the Charles De Gaulle at the mouth.
Plus as you know, Bush just upped the amount of advanced military hardware he is giving to Israel to 35 billion to offset the 20 Billion $ worth he is given to Saudi Arabia and other supposed allies to offset Iran.
It is quite a mess Bush is developing as he pursues his new middle east order that was his original reason for attacking Iraq. Someone must wake up congress quick because he is going to beat them to the punch!

This is all bullshit. I'm so pissed about everything going on in the White House, and in politics in general, i think we should just fire them all and start over with randomly selected 18 years olds right out of high school. THey'd probably get more done, and when they sounded like complete idiots, it would be FAR more understandable.

RickMac @ 23:

ldzppln @ 13:

hadenuf @ 4:

Fact: Shortly before the 2004 presidential election Petraeus did something that active-duty commanders should not do. In late September he wrote an op-ed piece for The Washington Post obviously as a favor to the Bush campaign, in which he applauded what he called major progress by the Iraqi military, Iraqi police and Iraqi leadership.

He sure did.

"Helping organize, train and equip nearly a quarter-million of Iraq's security forces is a daunting task. Doing so in the middle of a tough insurgency increases the challenge enormously, making the mission akin to repairing an aircraft while in flight -- and while being shot at. Now, however, 18 months after entering Iraq, I see tangible progress. Iraqi security elements are being rebuilt from the ground up.

The institutions that oversee them are being reestablished from the top down. And Iraqi leaders are stepping forward, leading their country and their security forces courageously in the face of an enemy that has shown a willingness to do anything to disrupt the establishment of the new Iraq."

It goes on and on...

And this is the reason why everyone waiting on a Democrat to utilize such information (and ask what happened to those wonderful projections THREE years ago) is just fooling themselves. They are bought and paid for by lobbyists just like the Repubs. Only YOU, the American electorate, can make the war stop. Everyone needs to take to the streets, camp out in front of the offices of their respective representative and refuse to accept the bullshit any longer.

Until then, your comments and mine mean jack.

FAT CHANCE

pinkobait @ 15:

Yes,"no one" can predict what will happen in America's continuing occupation of Iraq,but leaving?Dear God!They have no problem describing-- in excrutiating and minute detail--what the grim consequences of THAT would be.

Seemed like the audience missed that punchline...

[...] Video Here [...]

I am ex-navy. What Fallon is reported to have said fits right in. Just look at the chest of the jumped up shill and you will see he has nothing for valor just a bunch of stuff for getting his ticket punched. Typical gung-ho ass kisser.

mudshark @ 8:

I've seen this movie before...a long time ago....and Gen Westmorland was the star.

Not comparable. Petraeus is more like Creighton Abrams, who had the unenviable job of cleaning up after Westy until we fully withdrew. Also, Abrams was much more effective with COIN, and had a better grasp of it the civil development component, while Westy had no inkling and was a great believer in firepower through technological and industrial superiority (i.e., Shock and Awe).

I wonder how far the parallels will go? Will Hil get elected based on a secret plan? That's an amusing thought: Hillary Clinton as the Democratic version of Richard Nixon.

marcos the redneck Jew @ 32:

What you are all forgetting is that Gen. Petraeus and the troops under him had great success in the sector to which they were assigned. It's because of this that he was given his current job. He's the guy to go to for both modern COIN (Counter-Insurgency) theory and practice, having real world experience using the methods in the field manual on COIN used by both the Army and the Marines.

So his reporting of successes in his sector were not spin and were not political. Misreporting this, on the other hand, is spin and is political, but I'm not surprised given that it's SP's story.

Pardon me for interjecting a little reality into the discussion, but spin is spin, and it doesn't matter what "side" does it. I don't like being lied to, whether it's Tony Snow doing it or Glen. Saying that "the other side does it, so they should expect us to do it back" does not excuse the twisting and spinning of facts. Don't become the monsters that you fight.

That said, I disagree with Petraeus on the most fundamental point, while partially agreeing with him on another. We need to withdraw. We need to be out of Iraq by Labor Day of next summer (picking an arbitraty but easy to remember date). I agree that a rapid withdrawal will lead to increased chaos, but that is why we must begin the process now by at the very least setting timetables. 30,000 troops by next summer is not good enough (and would happen anyway).

There. See? I disagreed with Petraeus without twisting or misrepresenting facts. I didn't call him a Bush lackey or question his honor or honesty. I would like to give him more time in order to minimize the chaos when we leave, but we must leave and we must begin preparations now, not six months from now or next summer. I fully support him doing all he can to minimize the shit that will fly after we leave, but we must leave.

I for one do not believe for one moment that the report didn't come through the WH.....not the way this admin has behaved..everything has been preordained before it hits the spokesperson for the masses...

I hate people like this asshole "general"... according to Wikipedia, he's NEVER seen combat... sure, lots of classroom education bullshit. Why didn't he serve in Vietnam? What about Bosnia or Kuwait, or anywhere else? He was too busy in the classrooms. And he looks and sounds like this meek little BUSHIE, with political interests. What an asshole. He's no patriot. I haven't served, yet I'm more of a patriot than this asshole, and I'm not a hypocrit liar. 4 stars, for doing what...

Republican asshole general classroom boy.

how do you pronounce his name correctly?
I think it is "betray-us"?

All those ribbons and bling. Gawd, that seems over done and gaudy.

Generals, presidents, elected/appointed officials or the whole damn system can ride the little yellow bus too.

Yellow is their favorite color.

The US democratic society is based on truth and honesty. Right now it's made up of liars and thieves.

repugs tried to embarrass Clinton before they stole the 2000 election. In the near future repugs will blame the dems for all that they done, like the nasty little liars that they are.

It's all a game to them because they are bored.

So Stewart and his Daily Show, and this example, are to me held up as models of contemporary humorous political commentary?

Here's all Stewart did; he hyperbolic mocked the hype created by the media, misquoted at article by the General, mocked the comments about the General by the media, mocked non-working microphone in the hearing, make weak accusations that the General's report was written by the Administration (yet he fails to realize that presidents comments were likely based on information by the Departments of Defense), mocked that he had facts to back up his assessment. Of course if the General had not provided facts I'm sure it would have been lept upon as a shocking and virtually criminal act of withholding information that Stewart would pre-conclude as being dire news.

Next Stewart rudely hints that the General regards all the loss if life and injury that has occurred in this war as a merely statistics. How rude to assume that man has no feelings like that. How does he know what the General feels?

And to conclude Stewart mocks the fact the general's prediction of short-term consequences of a possible premature withdrawal of forces would be worse then the war itself. Sounds like a valid statement of opinion to me.

So that's s all he does?

He mocks.

That's it.

And the people are eating it up!

I'm scared that this is what the popular left is basing all their opinions on.

But, we all know what Stewart was going to say. Just as he would say he we all knew what the General was going to say. Stewart's mocking was a foregone conclusion.

H.R. 2206: U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations PASSED 221 to 205 By the DEMOCRATIC LEAD CONGRESS ON May 10, 2007.

"Prior to the submission of the *********PRESIDENT'S***** second ********REPORT on September 15, 2007************, and at a time to be agreed upon by the leadership of the Congress and the Administration, the United States Ambassador to Iraq and the Commander, Multi-National Forces Iraq will be made available to testify in open and closed sessions before the relevant committees of the Congress."

Where does this conspiracy of the report being mysteriously coming from the Whitehouse in order to keep the generals from saying what they want? Its CONGRESS that ordered the report to come from the president and not the generals.

I guess people on the left just cant read because they are blind with false hate. Now back go the arguments without any knowledge of the real facts.

David @ 43:

So Stewart and his Daily Show, and this example, are to me held up as models of contemporary humorous political commentary?

Here's all Stewart did; he hyperbolic mocked the hype created by the media, misquoted at article by the General, mocked the comments about the General by the media, mocked non-working microphone in the hearing, make weak accusations that the General's report was written by the Administration (yet he fails to realize that presidents comments were likely based on information by the Departments of Defense), mocked that he had facts to back up his assessment. Of course if the General had not provided facts I'm sure it would have been lept upon as a shocking and virtually criminal act of withholding information that Stewart would pre-conclude as being dire news.

Next Stewart rudely hints that the General regards all the loss if life and injury that has occurred in this war as a merely statistics. How rude to assume that man has no feelings like that. How does he know what the General feels?

And to conclude Stewart mocks the fact the general's prediction of short-term consequences of a possible premature withdrawal of forces would be worse then the war itself. Sounds like a valid statement of opinion to me.

So that's s all he does?

He mocks.

That's it.

And the people are eating it up!

I'm scared that this is what the popular left is basing all their opinions on.

But, we all know what Stewart was going to say. Just as he would say he we all knew what the General was going to say. Stewart's mocking was a foregone conclusion.

Of course his mockery was a foregone conclusion. That's his job. He mocked Democrats when they were in power (and I'm sure you thought that was fantastic), he mocks Republicans when they are in power. And when the current quasi-fascist Republican administration is inevitably removed from power next November, he will begin mocking the Democrats again. The entire premise of the show is to cast light on the inherent comedy existing in current events, and it's certainly there. If you look at the show as an actual source of news, you're completely missing the point.

Even so, he sometimes manages to educate a hopelessly delusional American public on world history as well, like with the "America to the Rescue" segment. If you missed it, he spelled out in great detail how this country has continuously pursued for decades a policy of controlling the Middle East for the purposes of oil production and distribution. The Bush Administration is simply the latest, and most dangerous, episode in that long history. It has nothing to do with terrorism, it has nothing to do with nuclear weapons, and it has nothing to do with peace. It has to do with oil. Plain and simple. However, most Americans would rather not know any of this, and shake their fists in the air, angry at the terrorists who "hate our freedom." The don't hate our freedom, they just hate the freedom with which we've continously exploited them for our own gains.

Pulling out of Iraq is only part of the solution. We need to pull out of the Middle East period, and finally give the region the independence that we've repeatedly promised and reneged on for decades (huh, I wonder why they could possibly want to attack us with the weapons we gave them in the first place). But the American people are not willing to give up their ability to happily drive their little boxes on wheels from one meaningless activity to the next, so it isn't going to happen. The next administration will be no different from this one, regardless of which side of the aisle they come from, and terrorist attacks will continue. Sad, but true.

King of Mean @ 37:

I hate people like this asshole "general"... according to Wikipedia, he's NEVER seen combat... sure, lots of classroom education bullshit. Why didn't he serve in Vietnam? What about Bosnia or Kuwait, or anywhere else? He was too busy in the classrooms. And he looks and sounds like this meek little BUSHIE, with political interests. What an asshole. He's no patriot. I haven't served, yet I'm more of a patriot than this asshole, and I'm not a hypocrit liar. 4 stars, for doing what...

Republican asshole general classroom boy.

His special genius originated from getting married with the daughter of West Point superintendent, General William A. Knowlton. These overlords trust only the ones they screw [excluding the entire American nation].

wow, PWNED!

My thought about patreus is that if he didn't have a greco-roman general sounding name, the media wouldn't be so willing to put him on the genius pedestal.

Maybe he'll end up being our next emperor.

That was fantastic. Petraeus the Bush sock puppet.

Why are liberals afraid to admit that maybe there is some success in Iraq? Is it because success in Iraq is a potential defeat to the Democrats in 2008. Who enters a war to lose, yet that is what the liberals want, because a success or improvement is anathema.

Today we find out that the New York Times gave a deep discount to MOVEON.ORG in order to run the infamous "Betraus" ad.

What is wrong with people in this country? Whether you agree or disagree with the war, why is it in your interest to see America Fail? Why do you want us to fail in Iraq.

Because Larry, you're a day late and a dollar short. Why is right so afraid to admit their mistakes?

paranoia @ 18:

Seems like everyone else who had a hand at promoting this war got rewarded. Not one of them who fuck it up got reprimanded, and the one that came forward with honesty were fired. I somehow link honor with being honest, and my fault for not understanding GWBush definition of what Honor is, but I don't understand honor among thieves.

And you think thats only the Bush team. Clintons are the most corrupt group of theives that ever were in the White House.
Firing all the U S Attorneys to get to the one that was investigating Hillary in Whitewater and putting in his guy who found nothing on her, although almost all before her were indicted and most went to jail. 500 FBI files found on Hillaries desk, Brother Bill lying under oath and got a ten year suspension, Libby got three years, Sandy Berger got a slap on the hand for stealing classified documents from the National Archive. I could go on and on and on.... And all this is proven. I don't want to hear conspiracy from Liberals.

GOP08_DOA @ 57:

Because Larry, you're a day late and a dollar short. Why is right so afraid to admit their mistakes?

Or why is the left and media afraid to tell the truth?

Larry Emsweller @ 60:

If the left feels this way about the war, let's take another subject. The economy is in trouble. Will the liberals encourage Congress to take no action to help the mortgage crisis because a good economy is bad for this political season? It is time for both parties to put aside partisanship and do what is good for America.

The economy is in trouble because of Bush. You know, your war hero. And what can Congress do to help the mortgage crisis? Wouldn't it be against the free market Gods to intervene in their divine plans? The invisible hand of the market will fix all things will it not? Or at least that is how the mythology goes.

Personally, I do not see anything pulling us out of the economic shitter. But, I also don't see the Congress refusing to help if they can, which it is unlikely they can. The economic problem is way more than the mortgage crisis. That is just the tip of the iceburg. Our free trade policies, our neverending wars, and our rediculous tax breaks for the wealthy are taking us down. Helping the mortgage problem would be a bandaid at best.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that since the 1920's Western Europe and the United States have been trying to control that Mid East Oil. Being in Iraq to get Bin Laden is like O.J. looking for Nicole's real killers (complete and utter bullshit). Anyone who denies that is delusional and doesn't have the guts to realize their beloved country has been hijacked by a bunch of liars.

Thou shall not lie is one of the ten commandments. How is it that the war liars got the support of the religious right and the good god fearing people of middle America? Because they lied and continue to lie to them. Why is Al Gore vilified and treated like the enemy? He's an American citizen. Anyone who turns Americans against each other is the problem. A house divided can not stand. The simple truths born out through history proved again and again are completely ignored by our media talking heads who will say anything to get on Television and grab a pay check. The good of the Country isn't on their radar. Profit is the false god we worship (oops another commandment we aren't following). When profit and money trump all other concerns we can't even manage our plentiful resources successfully. If we did we would have the highest fuel efficiency standards in the world. As it stands we are way down on the list with Canada, Europe and China selling vehicles with better fuel efficiency. Why (?) Because.....drum roll please....it's about profit and the more oil we consume the more the big boys sell. But in the end it's a house of cards and when it comes down we better all pray it's not horrible. Nuclear weapons make this little game of sacrificing the poor as soldiers to do the big boys profiteering is dicey for all of us. There is no hiding in the Caymans from nuclear warheads.

A targeted, elite special op's operation to get Bin Laden (who's parents do business with James Baker and the Carlyle group) would have been the honest way to go - unless Bin Laden himself (who received arms and covert contact from the Americans when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan) is really a CIA operative, a double agent, a god damn independent run amok, or a red herring.

Isn't anyone struck by the timing of Bin Laden's press and video releases being counter productive and counter intuitive towards what Bin Laden says he wants? They just "happen" to coincide with our elections and this bogus dog and pony show (report) by Petraeus.

Bin Laden is supposed to be so smart orchestrating a world wide terror ring - so he opens his mouth right before an election to help elect the "one party" that can defeat him? Bin Laden pops up after months and years of silence right before the reading of this report? For what...to remind us we should stay at war, we have something to fear? Bin Ladern wants our bases off Saudi soil. The last thing he would do is use his terror shtick to scare us into staying at war on his soil with our bases. This evil overlord who successfully hides from all of our efforts to find him and slips away at Torra Bora when we have him surrounded (and then pull back) is so savvy that he throws himself out there to re-elect Republicans and pump up support for Petraeus's report and our continued war presence.

Dear lord people get a clue. Up is down in the world of politics, espionage and war profiteering. The so called "Clear Sky's Act" actually weakened environmental standards and on and on. Don't be such unthinking dupes.

As for comedians being unable to have insight and pierce the smoke and mirrors with a lightening bolt of truth just because they are comedians - that's completely bogus - everyone from Groucho Marx, George Carlin, Carlos Mencia, Lewis Black, to Mark Twain and Ben Franklin were able to elicit in a few words, "truth," that the powers that be would rather we not deal with.

For another brilliant comedian watch Robert Newman's History of Oil http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5267640865741878159

It's been out for a while but deserves another look unless of course your mind is closed.

[...] Jon Stewart pokes holes over, through, and around Gen. Petraeus’ assessment of the War in Iraq. Check it out! [...]

cobrajohn @ 68:

GOP08_DOA @ 62:

Larry and cobrajohn are on the wrong thread.

But, but, but Clinton...

and

Well then, let's not talk about the war... "let's take another subject."

Typical. Oh so typical.

Whats typical is that donkeys bray and bray then don't have their own plan, just sit on their (another word for donkey goes here). They want to leave or surrender. You talk of losing all those men and women to this war for nothing. During Clintons term we lost up to 4000 Americans in the first wtc attack, Khobar towers, Cole, embassies in Africa,marine barracks, Blackhawk Down, etc, etc... Clinton took out an aspirin factory and sent missles into Al Qaeda camp in Iraq. Bush freed Afghans from Taliban, Iraq of Sadam and scared Khadafi in giving up his WMD program. We have lost 3500 Americans. You add up the numbers.

And close to one million innocent Iraqis.

Aren't the taliban back in power? I heard the poppies are doing great this year...

And why do intelligent people listen to a comedian for their news. He just a political hack trying to get a laugh at the exspense of our country. You talk about traitors.

Why do intelligent people listen to one-sided politically slanted opinion for their news? Oh, that's right: smart people don't.

And when comedians become traitors, simply by being funny, it's time to engage that 2-stroke weed-whacker you call a brain, and start using it.

cobrajohn @ 72:

navyswan @ 63:

Larry Emsweller @ 60:

If the left feels this way about the war, let's take another subject. The economy is in trouble. Will the liberals encourage Congress to take no action to help the mortgage crisis because a good economy is bad for this political season? It is time for both parties to put aside partisanship and do what is good for America.

The economy is in trouble because of Bush. You know, your war hero. And what can Congress do to help the mortgage crisis? Wouldn't it be against the free market Gods to intervene in their divine plans? The invisible hand of the market will fix all things will it not? Or at least that is how the mythology goes.

Personally, I do not see anything pulling us out of the economic shitter. But, I also don't see the Congress refusing to help if they can, which it is unlikely they can. The economic problem is way more than the mortgage crisis. That is just the tip of the iceburg. Our free trade policies, our neverending wars, and our rediculous tax breaks for the wealthy are taking us down. Helping the mortgage problem would be a bandaid at best.

Why don't you liberals get away from talking points and stick to the facts. We have a booming economy. The mortgage problem is not a problem. Its way less than 5% of the total market of housing. And why do intelligent people listen to a comedian for their news. He just a political hack trying to get a laugh at the exspense of our country. You talk about traitors.

I could care less about what John says on his show. Personally, I do not watch it.
You are the one that brought up the mortgage problem. If it isn't a problem, then why were you whining about the dems not helping out?

Haha. You show your true colors throwing around the traitor insult. And what have you done for your cause lately? For someone who loves their war so much, I haven't heard you say you serve. And, I think you must be the only one left in this country who is delusional enough to think that the economy is booming. Why don't you stop spouting right wing talking points.

cobrajohn @ 74:

GOP08_DOA @ 70:

No cobrajohn. First you add up the numbers of Iraqi civilian casualties you're ignoring and get back to me on this sham of a war you support.

The civilian casualties of Iraq, caused by the U>S> is less than the number killed in the Kosovo Bombings by Clinton. Where were you bleeding heart liberals then? The killings in Iraq are the terrorists killing civilians, not as many as Sadam I believe, but we eliminated that problem as we will eliminate the Al Qaeda there. If you have any trust in our military. If you look at the latest polls, you will see 68% of Americans trust our military to do the job, and only 21% think the Democrat controlled Congress is more trusted. You guys here are in the dwindling minority.

Guess you were absent on Nov. 7, 2006.

As much as I like Fred Thompson, I sure wish John Stewart would get his 2008 bid for the Presidency rolling...

navyswan @ 76:

cobrajohn @ 74:

GOP08_DOA @ 70:

No cobrajohn. First you add up the numbers of Iraqi civilian casualties you're ignoring and get back to me on this sham of a war you support.

The civilian casualties of Iraq, caused by the U>S> is less than the number killed in the Kosovo Bombings by Clinton. Where were you bleeding heart liberals then? The killings in Iraq are the terrorists killing civilians, not as many as Sadam I believe, but we eliminated that problem as we will eliminate the Al Qaeda there. If you have any trust in our military. If you look at the latest polls, you will see 68% of Americans trust our military to do the job, and only 21% think the Democrat controlled Congress is more trusted. You guys here are in the dwindling minority.

There was no Al-Qaeda there before we went there. And Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not affiliated with The Al-Qaeda. You need to stop watching Fox news. All your talking points and "facts" are bullshit. And, Clinton is not president now, so I could give a fuck what he did. He is irrelevant to today's problems. Why don't you stop living in the past and look around you at the current mess we are living in. If Clinton were president I would call him out for killing innocents, but he isn't president. Bush is.

No Al Qeada in Iraq? Thats why Clinton targetted a camp Al Qeada had used as a training camp to send 2 missles to wipe out.
In Iraq.

[...] John Stewart, Petreaus, and Bin Laden - Duck Soup [...]

Godlike @ 40:

Ron McD @ 3:

Think about this… television serves no purpose whatsoever in this world. Everything that it does can easily be replicated by radio or the internet. Yet, if TV vanished tomorrow there would be chaos of epic proportions. Please… turn off the TV! My TV has an inch of dust on it, I haven’t used it for ANYTHING in over a year and probably 2 years before that… and I can honestly say that I am much, much happier not having the glowing box shouting at me to buy things all evening.blockquote>

WELL said, I also turned off my TV a couple years ago then finally gave it away. Other media is everywhere & just as good. Without getting into long diatribes that Box is one of our biggest & most passive intrusions on what could be an otherwise balanced life.

The Democrats bashing the military is not a strategy for victory.
If you think the American people are not going to see the stance taken against the leaders of the military, the inaction of the Democrat Congress and the special interest groups controlling the Democrats, your greatly mistaken. Why, then, is the
congress approval ratings, at one point less then half the Presidents, so bad. The worst in history!

Because they haven't ended the war yet. That is why they have such a low approval rating. That is what the majority of people voted them in for. And 'special interests groups' controlling dems, don't make me laugh. As if republicans are exempt from that. Ha!

You are one blind political partisan. You see everything in this world and country through some skewed republican lens. Wake up. There are people on both sides of the aisle that are keeping this mess going. You are a child that sees everything through caricatures created by propagandists.

The military leaders, for the most part, are tired of this mindless never ending war. Most of the joint chiefs disagree with Bush on the 'war strategy'. Stop confusing dissent for the war with 'bashing the troops'. No democrat has ever 'bashed the troops' regardless of what the propagandists like Fox or Limbaugh claim. However, the military and the president are not above criticism. We are not a dictatorship yet. Deal with it.

marcos the redneck Jew @ 32:

What you are all forgetting is that Gen. Petraeus and the troops under him had great success in the sector to which they were assigned. It's because of this that he was given his current job. He's the guy to go to for both modern COIN (Counter-Insurgency) theory and practice, having real world experience using the methods in the field manual on COIN used by both the Army and the Marines.

So his reporting of successes in his sector were not spin and were not political. Misreporting this, on the other hand, is spin and is political, but I'm not surprised given that it's SP's story.

Pardon me for interjecting a little reality into the discussion, but spin is spin, and it doesn't matter what "side" does it. I don't like being lied to, whether it's Tony Snow doing it or Glen. Saying that "the other side does it, so they should expect us to do it back" does not excuse the twisting and spinning of facts. Don't become the monsters that you fight.

That said, I disagree with Petraeus on the most fundamental point, while partially agreeing with him on another. We need to withdraw. We need to be out of Iraq by Labor Day of next summer (picking an arbitraty but easy to remember date). I agree that a rapid withdrawal will lead to increased chaos, but that is why we must begin the process now by at the very least setting timetables. 30,000 troops by next summer is not good enough (and would happen anyway).

There. See? I disagreed with Petraeus without twisting or misrepresenting facts. I didn't call him a Bush lackey or question his honor or honesty. I would like to give him more time in order to minimize the chaos when we leave, but we must leave and we must begin preparations now, not six months from now or next summer. I fully support him doing all he can to minimize the shit that will fly after we leave, but we must leave.

You sound very reasonable.

But how can you be accurate about Petrayus without the words; "Bush Lacky?"

Look, the "middle ground" between Corrupt and Legal, or Insane and Sane -- just doesn't look like a smart place to be. This isn't a debate between two points of view, it's the Citizens wanting to put an end to a Criminal and Fascist Regime (The Bush Crime Family, in other words). I just don't see this illegal, evil war as a debate. And if you see that a General is echoing Bush's talking points, and we've had 6 months where everyone said; "we don't need to talk about the war because we are going to wait for the Petrayus report." We get the report, and it is the same fluff piece that we could have gotten a year ago -- two years ago.

It's a stall tactic. It's nice that you drew up a time table. So the Bush people can call YOU a wacky liberal, and find the middle ground between labor day and NEVER. When a liberal then goes about trying to find new middle ground, it will be between 1/2 of eternity, and not until we fall into a singularity. See how that works?

Jon Richt @ 84:

No Al Qeada in Iraq? Thats why Clinton targetted a camp Al Qeada had used as a training camp to send 2 missles to wipe out.
In Iraq.

By that logic, we should invade every country where Al Qaeda operatives are located. Thus, UK & Germany are lumped in with Afghanistan and Iraq. GJ - you just turned this into WWIII.

Or, maybe you're conveniently ignoring the fact that Iraq was NOT the front in the War on Terrorism until we invaded. Al Qaeda was not vying for control of Iraq until we showed up, which was Navy's point.

So far, all I've seen you do here is ignore what people are posting, spin what they say into something entirely different, and react with righteous conservatism - it's painfully juvenile.

Learn what the phrase Intellectual Honesty means, and you might have a chance of not growing up to be a total asshole...

your digressing to typical democrat mentality. When you don't win in debate, you reduce yourself to demonizatiom and cursing. I got you where I want you. I know what Navys point was. I was telling him about intelligence about Iraq. It was flawed, that is why Clinton went after them and why Bush believed there were WMD's there.
Of course you don't remember what Bush said standing in the rubble of the WTC towers. They will hear from us, any state that sponsors terrorism, any one that harbors terrorists or finances terrorists will hear from us. Sadam was paying families of suicide bombers $30,000 each to blow up innocent women and kids in Israel. Lets see, is that Terrorists? Uhhh! Yes, for you from Rio Linda.

Typical brainless conservativism: any and all opposition to your viewpoint must come from a Democrat or a Liberal.

I'm neither.

You continue to ignore the points being made, and claim victory when no one agrees with you. You're an idiot, regardless of what your political ideology might be.

We are on a completely liberal website, which demonizes everything Republican. I came on a couple of days ago to see what the other side was saying. John Amato is a registered Democrat and professional musician who supported the Dixie Chicks. You can say what you want about your own stance, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... You say your not liberal, you say I go of on tangents and not stick to the points. This is about much bigger points than the Terrorist War, its about the soul of our country and about the false ideology of liberals trying to save lives in Iraq. Its about total hypocprisy! You all claim to want to pull out because many lives are lost. But it doesn't matter that we, in this country, have killed over 44 million babies. You want to talk of saving lives. Ha!!! You want to raise up Homosexuals as an alternate life style, you want to take the very reason for our nation being here out of the public arena and stomp on the Founders of our country. Lets take pedophiles next and make them an alternative, also. I love all people, individually, but Democrats and homosexuality Are sins of major proportions. And yes, some Republicans are wrong to. I don't like Neo-cons either, but when you look at corruption, you need to look at the Democrats too. The most corrupt
places in the U.S. is New Orleans, New Jersey, Miami, Chicago, all controlled by the Democrat Party. This is a fact Goodbye! You can't debate without degrading.

There is an awakening process like when you're camping and there is some large insect chewing on you while you sleep. You float in and out of awareness, until suddenly you cross a threshhold and you are fully awake. Over the past year I have also gone from annoyance, irritation over the congress to fully awake, unblinking realization that CONGRESS is the problem. This is how I felt about Bush in 2003, 2004. Of course I oppose everything the Bush administration stands for. But he is not the lawmaker. The war in Iraq was started by Congress.

At this point, I suspect the media, the corporate sector, use Bush as a decoy, the object of hatred, to draw fire away from Congress. Was he put in the white house precisely because he is so infuriating to any progressive person? We are always 5 or 10 years behind, in their game.

The congress started this war, and they did it for the money and the patronage, for the oil industry, the military complex, and the financial sector. Kill a million people for their party bosses, kill a million for their donor base, kill a million to get a committee seat, boost their own careers.

The same plutocracy stands behind the congress and the president. To attack them is like attacking the bullfighter's red cape.

cobrajohn @ 91:

Jon Richt @ 84:

No Al Qeada in Iraq? Thats why Clinton targetted a camp Al Qeada had used as a training camp to send 2 missles to wipe out.
In Iraq.

I know what Navys point was. I was telling him about intelligence about Iraq. It was flawed, that is why Clinton went after them and why Bush believed there were WMD's there.

One HUGE difference between how Clinton and Bush reacted to the intelligence they had... Clinton sent 2 missiles at a specific target and left it at that. So far, Bush has spent about 2 billion dollars a day for the past 4 years, caused 30,000 US casualties and an HUGE amount of Iraqi casualties. Millions of Iraqis have fled from their homes, the entire region is in chaos, and every p***** off Iraqi and Muslim who lost their home, their job, a family member or friend, or their dignity are now potential terrorists.

I don't think you're wrong for being a republican, I think you are wrong for electing, and re-electing, and supporting an idiot.

I'm a democrat, and I hope that the next democrat elected has the intelligence to fix what we broke in Iraq. Pulling the troops out is the popular thing to do, but is it the right thing to do? I think Biden put it best when he said we need a "diplomatic surge". We can't have troops there to provide security for nothing, we need additional efforts to rebuild the pride of the Iraqi people, because Iraqi nationalism is the ONLY thing that is going to fix that country.

[...] is who wrote “the Petraeus report”, does it really say anything different? Check out Jon Stewart’s dissection of Petraeus.  If only there was another opinion by someone local like, oh, General [...]