Justice Department secretly endorsed torture
In December 2004, Bush’s Justice Department issued a statement insisting that “torture is abhorrent.” It was an encouraging step from administration officials who were willing to concede that there were limits to presidential authority when it came to brutal interrogations.
But it was a lie — shortly thereafter, then-Attorney General Alberto Gonzales signed off on a secret legal opinion, which, as the New York Times reported today, endorsed “the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.”
The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.
Mr. Gonzales approved the legal memorandum on “combined effects” over the objections of James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, who was leaving his job after bruising clashes with the White House. Disagreeing with what he viewed as the opinion’s overreaching legal reasoning, Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it.
Josh Marshall noted that “there’s still much we are yet to learn about how far the Gonzales Justice Department took us into the darkness of state-sponsored torture and lawlessness.” That’s true. But the more we do learn, the more we realize that we’re dealing with officials who know no limits and feel no shame. Scrubbing the stain of ignominy will be a weighty challenge for Bush’s successor.
As for other reactions, Kevin Drum wants to know who in Congress knew about all of this; Digby makes the case that stories like this one are “the very definition of the banality of evil — a bunch of ideologues and bureaucrats blithely committing morally reprehensible acts apparently without conscience or regret”; and Hilzoy argues that the administration’s tactics are “not just morally abhorrent; they are flatly illegal.”
I know it’s difficult to muster a new degree of outrage every time the Bush gang sinks to a new low, but today’s revelations highlight American lawlessness at the highest levels of our government.
Y1kes!
Now isn't that an eye opener? Who would have though that Alberto would have done something so incredibly awful?
We have to fight 'em over there...
You don't support our troops...
Do you want another 9/11?...
Islamofascists...
Blah, blah, blah...
The MSM won't pick up on this, Congress will just roll over and go back to sleep.
Why do we bother?
Oh, and by the way dubya, you forgot to give him his Medal of Freedom.
we have to get them there before they get us here.
they're coming after our babies.
or our women folks.
errrr, hey - 9/11!
Look - a puppy!
This administration is the embodiment of true evil - what happens when the school yard bullies grow up and no one told them there were boundaries in life. We're in a downward spiral with 3 out of 4 engines smoking and the 4th is sputtering badly.
Surprisingly, it's not that hard to be newly outraged. Not when these scumbags go to work.
Hey, Nancy! Is this enough to convince you we need to impeach Bush?
Ultimately, with John Yoo's 'legal opinion' and Gonzo asserting the Geneva Conventions were 'quaint and outmoded,' that 'it isn't torture unless it involves organ failure,' and that the Constitution offers no right of habeas corpus, none of us should be surprised at the depths to which the Bush Administration has sunk. (Or, more correctly, never rose from.)
of course they lied..we've known that for years now....Could the country be waking up finally?..And Sen Domenici is said to retire at the end of this term......because of a degenerative brain disease....
lets torture them here so we don't have torture them there......theres plenty left in this admin.
Shameful, impeachable, prosecutable.
Glad we're the world's "beacon of freedom"
Lets see "DC Dana" perino lie herself out of this one...
it's amazing - holding a lighter to someone's tongue wouldn't cause organ failure or death, but is there anyone who doesn't believe that's torture?
Nancy, can you hear me now? IMPEACH!
Let's be honest. More often than not, we hear that top leaders in al-Qaeda (Iraq) are being killed, not captured.
Therefore, who are we interrogating? Some putz at the far end of the chain, when sensible practices would have this person isolated from anyone of import and any plans of significance? (It'd be like waterboarding the hot dog vendor at the football stadium when we're really interested in the team's playbook.)
And again, we have these self-proclaimed godly men, good Christians all, putting their names to policies worthy of the Pharisees (you know, the guys who put Christ on trial and nailed his ass to a cross). Yet we continue to trust them and believe them when they spout their platitudes and patriotic slogans?
Wake up, America!
Remember the old superstition - if you're having a nightmare in which you're falling, if you hit bottom, you'll die before you wake.
It's come to the point where I don't know whether to cry or scream. I have not been on the impeachment wagon as much as others have, but now we have proof positive of illegal activity and it goes right to the top of the dung heap in DC. Yes indeed, put impeachment back on the table and do it now. Clinton lied and now we have proof that this whole administration are nothing more than evil liars. Now is the time to call upon our government to stop this bullshit once and for all.
I guess MONTY PYTHON NEEDS TO UPDATE ITS CLASSIC ‘SPANISH INQUISITION’ SKETCH
this comes as no surprise to me. Each day that goes by, the Bush regime becomes more and more like the dictatorships the regime's supporters claim to despise. In fact, it would not surprise me in the least to learn that this is only the tip of the iceberg. The worst crimes this regime has committed will more that likely remain classified just like Hitler kept his crimes secret from the populace.
Hey MSM, look over here. Rush called the soldiers phoney.
Tony Snow was smart to get out while he still could.......he must of seen this coming..
well, don't go asking gonzo about it - he won't recall. . .
History will find these criminals every bit as heinous as Hitler cause of the hypocrisy involved Church on sunday torture on monday
I wonder, did he pray first and ask himself What Would Jesus Do?
It astonishes me in that I am a Christian, and these people have the churches on their side and over what? Abortion and gay marriage. All the while they treat the poor like their personal servants, the middle class as people who deserve to be poor and unemployed, and the entire world as enemies to be scorned and mistreated.
Related
Shame shame shame on the German government!
NO JUSTICE FOR EL-MASRI
Germany Drops Pursuit of CIA Kidnappers
The German government has said it will not pursue extradition requests for 13 CIA agents charged with kidnapping a German citizen and taking him to Afghanistan for interrogation and abuse. Relations with the US government, Berlin says, are more important.
For a moment earlier this year, it seemed as though Germany might turn international relations on their head. A Munich court in January issued arrest warrants (more...) for 13 CIA agents allegedly responsible for kidnapping a German citizen. The agents are accused of flying him to Afghanistan for interrogation before dumping him on the side of an Albanian road in May 2004 after they realized they had abducted the wrong man.
Now, though, in the face of US intransigence, Germany has backed down. SPIEGEL has discovered that, in order to avoid a conflict with Washington, Berlin has decided to forgo forwarding a formal request that the agents be arrested. Germany's Justice Ministry sent out a feeler in late August to determine how Washington might react to such a request. The answer was clear: Washington is fundamentally unprepared (more...) to move against the agents.
Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries' decision to jettison the case doesn't just sidestep a potential trans-Atlantic spat, it also avoids a further deepening of existing tensions within Germany's governing coalition. Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble, a member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats, had promised to veto an official request if Zypries, a member of the Social Democrats, elected to pursue the case. (article continues)
read on:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,507455,00.html
I prefer to think of Bush/Cheney/Rummsfeldt Gonzales/Rice/Wolfowitz/Kristol/Perle/others as currently unindicted war criminals.
Hopefully that will change.
In his most recent appearances, does bush look and sound like he is on downers?
He sure does to me.
If congress isn't going to impeach, our only recourse is War Crimes Trials. We have a number of War Crimes laws on the books; we can put them on trial here in the US.
The only way the world will ever recognize us as good citizens again is if we do something to totally repudiate the behavior of these fascists.
We may have to wait until Bush is not in the position to pardon everyone. But until then we can at least start organizing for such a legal maneuver
I have "outrage overdose". . . I just want them held to account and to pay throught the justice system for what they've done -- but we all know with the help of Nancy Pelosi that will never happen -- and once they are out of office and power there is no chance, unless in an international court
but we know that will never happen
or we will never hand them over
Here's some torture for ya:
Someone needs to tattoo this information backwards on Nancy Pelosi's forehead, so she can read about it when she looks in the mirror in the morning.
Time to put the shredders on double duty.
pissed off patricia @ 15:
Patricia, I have to agree with you - impeachment is not something to be done lightly. Yet none of the offenses attributed to Mr. Bush seems to be enough for the Democrackhead leadership: lying to take the country into war, illegal wiretaps, and now torture authorized by the President's good buddy, Al Gonzales. (I once referred to him as Alberto 'Torquemada' Gonzales in a blog entry, and now I see I wasn't that far off the mark.)
To paraphrase the Biblical parable of the talents, imagine parting the curtains of time to present the founding fathers with our modern society. Which would they value the most, a country where individual freedoms are respected and preserved, where we provide for the welfare of the least among us, and the education of all? Or a country run by the corrupt, arrogating even the most egregious of privileges unto themselves, searches and wiretaps in violation of the Fourth Amendment, acts of torture, and the near-enshrinement of the military as a quasi-deity?
History will not be kind to those responsible, nor to those who stood silent and enabled them to continue raping our laws and principles.
...and yet, McCain claims he'd feel more comfortable with another 'christian' president. Howzat workin' for ya Johnny?
With Iraq,Blackwater and this.....I think it's safe to say.......Crimes against Humanity....yep
Rumor has it Alberto Gonzales is an adviser to the Myanmar Military Dictatorship. He's showing them how to torture monks with out leaving any bruises.
This is the America George W. Bush has created.
-GSD
drtoxic @ 3:
We bother because we ARE NOT Roberto Gonzales
USA Today reports 'Big US dirty bomb' drill the week of 10-15.
Shouldn't they go torture the ones that leaked that info?
Oh wait a minute, is that aiding the enemy?
Probably not in this case, we need an excuse to hit Iran.
And the sheep will buy it.
well....they were talking about this on Scarborough this morn......and the look on his face was shame..............................................good!
Ever wonder how many of the people they have in custody may never be released just because they have first hand knowledge of the interrogation techniques used? What about those six Iranians arrested a year ago? They've never released any evidence that they were actually selling arms. Could they still be in custody just because of the techniques used in interrogating them?
It seems like anyone who has been subjected to "Severe Interrogation Techniques", would be seen as a threat by the Bush administration, even if they weren't guilty of anything. The problem with secret interrogation techniques is they only remain secret as long as no one, including victims, can talk about them.
This is what we get when we "elect" a criminal enterprise to the presidency.
America the Evil.
Ah come on, it's not REALLY torture, it's....lets just say,
"Purification". Isn't that the term used during the Inquisition?
A new low for Team Bush? Let's hope.
Paul @ 24:
I like that. That would make a "typical" news story look something like this:
"LANCASTER, Pennsylvania (Not Reuters) - Unindicted War Criminal George W. Bush on Wednesday held up North Korea as a possible model for resolving the Iranian nuclear standoff and reaffirmed a U.S. offer of talks if Tehran suspends uranium enrichment.
"North Korea agreed earlier to disable its main nuclear reactor and provide a complete declaration of all nuclear activities by the end of the year under an accord hammered out in six-party talks.
Unindicted War Criminal Bush, speaking at the Chamber of Commerce in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, called the North Korea situation a "case study" for Iran in response to an audience question on why the United States would not hold direct negotiations with Tehran."
Does this honestly surprise anyone?
This is how a fascist government works folks.
lucid fiction @ 40:
It's only torture if you're a terrorist. Unfortunately the new definition of terrorist is "Anyone who shrub co. says it is."
Better hope the shrub co. crime machine doesn't decide it's time to start dealing with "domestic terrorists".
We all know that the complicity of congress and Pelosi's refusal to put impeachment on the table (she did this on her first day) is most likely because Israel is blackmailing the entire government.The truth about 9/11 WILL come out one day, the truth always does, but our country will be destroyed by then. In their minds fessing up is tantamount to destroying this country anyway, and perhaps they have a point.
Now will the Democrats take action against this administration? What on earth will it take?
Get the remaining Abu photos released to the public. That will shake things up.
Let John Q. Public have a gander at photos of children being sodomized. That ought to put the final coffin nail in this adminstration.
That's how I remember that being put.
Simon White-Thatch Potentloins @ 47:
We are talking Stake!
That man sized safe in Cheney's office is his crypt.
MN USA @ 46:
There's one ruling party, by agreement after the Nixon impeachment. The Dems can't even pretend anymore to be an opposition party.
Sadly there are some Americans who agree that torture is a good thing. These people could care less about this news today. They feel sure it will never happen to them so they have no humane feelings for those who are subjected to torture. Probably just about the same ones who would follow george bush right into the gates of hell if he asked them to.
I've had enough! How about You? Let's all contact Nancy Pelosi today.
MargeAggedon @ 44:
too late! that is what the domestic surveillance was for(ATT, Verizon, etc)!
MargeAggedon @ 44:
How do we know that they haven't? I wouldn't put it past this administration. People disappear all the time. How many have had the assistance of this administration in their disappearance?
It's important to realize, as I have said elsewhere, that the adminstration is operating under the carefully, indeed prayerfully crafted Constitutional Theory Of We Get To Do Whatever The Fuck We Want (also known as the theory of the unitary executive or, in the original German, Fuhrer. So, there's no story here, since they are, in fact, doing whatever the fuck they want.
It would also be interesting to know, as Kevin points out:
Harry? Nancy?
mystic @ 45:
There is something to her not putting impeachment on the table. I was thinking she was maybe playing politics hoping to use Bush as the poster boy for the GOP in the 2008 elections to help the Democrats. It's more than just not having the votes to convict. The American people are on the side of impeachment. There is more to this than meets the eye. The Thugs impeached Clinton over Lewinsky without having the votes, yet the Dems want impeach BushCo with what is a weekly onslaught of high crimes and misdemeanors, lies, corruption and warmongering? What gives? It may not be what you say, but it's something more than Dems simply not having backbone.....which they don't. I am thoroughly disgusted with Nancy Pelosi, she has become part of the problem as far as I'm concerned.
NewSpeak.
'The 'suspected' terrorist has been renditioned to an iterigation facility
and is undergoing questioning'.
In REAL English:
In order to 'get around' the Geneva Convention rules, we have kidnapped
some poor dark skinned extremist and taken to a black site out of the country
to be water boarded into confessing things that he normally wouldn't do so that
we can 'justify' the reason we torture in the first place.
A) unindicted war criminals ... yep
B) crimes against humanity ... yep
C) state sponsor of terror ... yep
D) all of the above ... yep
pissed off patricia @ 51:
Patricia, i never felt the need to disagree with you but in this case i have to say that being born and raised in this country does not make you truly an American if you do not believe in its tenents. These folks are mere "occupants."
I still haven't seen anything in the MSN about this. We know that Faux won't cover it but I thought maybe some of the others might jump on it.
Ron @ 60:
God, they are still talking about who can beat who in the 08 elections.
xoites defends Constitution @ 42:
Hmmm, let me try it.
"Unindicted War Criminal George Bush still at large seen here in this footage clearing brush at his ranch in Crawford, Texas leaving some people to wonder, will he ever be brought to justice?"
I like that too, I think this should be the new narrative.
xoites defends Constitution (59) You have a valid point. :)
mudshark @ 8:
yes its certainly sad when a republican like good old petes brain is finaly disabled by the shit in his blood that lodged in his brain!
The real trouble for me is knowing that while this is going on there are other things that will be found to be much worse. Whenever a government has been given a free ride under the net of national security or in the name of work in the public interest, true evil grows.
The fact that the Reps and Dems running for office still haven't started to distance themselves from Bush and what he is doing shows most clearly for me that none of them are fit to be allowed in office.
Both sides of congress had better take action or both parties are going to be taken over by the people that are not going to sit back and watch our country poisoned from the inside.
"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to TAKE IT any more!"
From the NY Times Article:
"Mr. Gonzales would sometimes tell colleagues that he had just one regret about becoming attorney general: He did not see nearly as much of the president as he had in his previous post."
This is one emotionally dependent psychopath.
Ruthless people:
There is no other explanation. Period.
"Bush works for the Likud Party. PNAC proscribed PRETEXT for the acquisition of the resources and territory of the Middle East. But Israel double-crossed the Bush Cabal and is blackmailing them BIG TIME. Israel controls everything inside the US. They have every single phone wiretapped and have their software running every vital system".
This is what happens when people allow criminals to undermine democracy.
We have allowed PURE EVIL to occupy the People's House.
When you walk down Pennsylvania Avenue...can't you smell the sulphur?
patthemonkey @ 65:
Not ALL presidential hopefuls fall into this category. Dennis Kucinich has spoken out many times about the problems in this country. He has introduced a bill to impeach Cheney, he wants us out of Iraq, and unlike the others he fought to keep us out before we even got into this mess. He believes we should find peaceful solutions. He is one of us, a "real" person not corrupted by this government. Don't take my word for it, go to his website and read what he has to say. He is not liked by the media or other candidates so they eliminate him as much as possible. He is the only REAL candidate out there.
America, the Super-Evil Power.
This, along with everything else, will be ignored by our dictatorship and we will surge on. This government is broken as John Dean puts it. I've defended the dems in Congress in the past, but I'm almost sure that some of them knew about this. And yet, impeachment is not on the table.
Same rant, same shit, different day.
Please people, contact your representatives again. We are going to hell in a handbasket. It's not to late.
StirFry @ 70:
As Dick Cheney said, "We will push until we are stopped."
Therein lies the challenge. The Democrats in Congress have not taken up the challenge. They waddle in tacit complicity and we are left gawking at the demise of America.
>The Dems can’t even pretend anymore to be an opposition party.
They are Enablers.
Pure and simple.
Arbusto has relied on them his whole life.
Ruthless People @ 62
Hmmm, let me try it.
And the answer is no. As long as he has the ability to issue pardons to himself and his co-conspirators, none of them will ever be convicted of anything. Remember, even if he's impeached, that's just an indictment. He can issue pardons up to the day before the Senate removes him from office. However, it's not likely that there will be enough votes in the Senate to remove him from office, so on the final day of his term he'll probably leave an 18" stack of pardons on his desk.
Gonzo loves his East German Stasi pop up book
Nancy saying impeachment is off the table was in effect giving bush the equal of an "E" ticket at Disneyland. You can do whatever you want.
It is said that an empire stands on three legs. One leg is its military. One is its economy and one leg is its moral authority. Remove one leg and it tips over and crashes.
No one ever discussed what would happen if you wittled all three down to nothing at the same time.
I see this story is filed under "Dick Cheney, Scandals, Torture, White House."
Shouldn't this also be filed under "No Sh*t Sherlock" ?
pissed off patricia @ 51:
Unindicted War Criminal Bush would never actually lead anyone on so dangerous a mission. He'd send the sons and daughters of people he doesn't know or care about.
It's over folks.
Time for a Plan B.
Me, I'm supporting the secessionists. At least then I'll know where to live.
xoites defends Constitution @ 77:
It's the illusion of stability that one gets from a uniform descent. It wasn't as if the Bush junta trashed one, then the other, then the third (although it could be argued that the moral aspect was entirely lacking from the git-go).
If that stool is all that's keeping your head above water, you simply drown. No fanfare, no nostalgia about past glory and proud achievements.
As Hobbes put it, "No arts, no letters, no science. Life is cruel, brutish, and short."
I ssent a link to the article in the NY Times to Adam Smith, my representative. I strongly urge that you all do the same in your districts. I also said that impeachment should be back on the table.
Sad fact is evil men/women have long advocated torture as the "means justifies the end", indignation at torture today is kind've laughable since as a vietnam era ex-marine, one can find historical evidence of torture in many past wars, one famous colonel wrote a book about shoving vietnamese prisoners out of a helicopter in flight, one at a time as he interrogated them, a analyst on Fox News another retired colonel bragged of torturing in vietnam for information, all torturers hide behind patriotism, a old historian once said the last refuge of a scoundrel is "patriotism", unfortunately unless these men get caught in Europe in some future date [unlikely], the only payment they will pay for their evil will be on judgment day when Jesus does not know them, and God will be so disgusted he will not look upon them as he casts them into the lake of fire, and since men/women who usually committ such horrible acts are godless, souless, individuals who bible might refer too as blind biblical goats whom will ask Jesus when did I do this too you Jesus, cannot imagine anything they did as wrong..., one can hope god's justice will come too them and I am sure it will, and surely eternal damnation is worse than anything mankind can come up with. I often joke, we have men in political power who are worse than any serial killers in any US prison, whom have not many deaths on their hands but hundreds of thousands and they get awards, accolaides, called heros worshipped by their followers, I would not want too have too face Jesus and say I admired these individuals, bible tells us the evil men/women will be worshiped by many, but not all...
Somehow these idiots (ie. the Dems in Congress) believe their current strategy will lift them to new heights in the next election. What they don't get is that they could double that take by DOING THE RIGHT THING. Fuckin' politics, Jon Stewart was exactly right calling Tweety out on his Life's a Campaign book. Modelling what the pols do is a recipe for sadness. Somehow, We the People are going to have to take our country back because the Dems we elected are either in on the scam or spineless.
Is "Indictment" off the table?
are we ever going to start the impeachment proceedings and the arrest of Gonzales and others like him?
Who's really surprised by this "revelation?" Who has not known that every act of this government, since the day they stole the '00 election, has been based upon lies and deceit? What could possibly be worse than torture and invading soverign nations and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians? Americans, having never suffered in this way, do not really understand what it is like to have bombs raining down and having every aspect of their comfortable lives destroyed by men clothed in black dragging your loved ones out of your homes in the dead of night. But we will, and soon, if we sit idly by writing clever quips on blog sites. All who participate on C&L should begin immediately to email/call senator and reps. Every Day (from your own state or as many others as possible) and just send along the simple message IMPEACH BUSH & CHENEY NOW! Then tell all your friends and neighbors to do the same. Perhaps those in Congress who are not completely corrupt and/or complicit will get the message that we are "mad as hell."
Janet @ 76:
I think Nancy realizes that even though there are probably enough votes in the House to impeach Bush and Cheney, neither would be removed from office because there aren't enough votes in the Senate.
If they can't get 60 votes in the Senate to bring legislation to the floor, there's little chance of getting 67 votes to remove either Bush of Cheney from office.
Oh, this makes me so angry! Again! I think it's time for another strongly worded letter from Congress. Maybe then they will straighten up and fly right.
Why are these people NOT in prison as the laws of this nation dictate?
Carmikl @ 88:
Fine and dandy but there was no need to not let the threat hang out there. With her telling him without a doubt that he was free to rape and pillage was a mistake in my book.
leatherneck1968 @ 83:
Samuel Johnson: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Ambrose Bierce: "I beg to submit that it is the first."
Johnson (1709-1784) and Bierce (1842-1913) were not contemporaries, however.
Carmikl @ 88:
But wouldn't you rather go down is history as someone who TRIED to have them removed?
Carmikl @ 88:
Janet, after reading that article, I think even a republican senator would be insane not to impeach. Let's hope that they're not all insane. Write your representative now and let's get impeachment started.
Ron @ 94:
In my opinion they are insane but I wrote to them all yesterday anyway.
Alberto Gonzales' Justice Deaprtment secretly endorsed torture while publicly denouncing it.
And WHO is surprised by this? I'm not.
The Champ is out.
drtoxic @ 3:
What a stupid question. We have no choice but "to bother". This crap only goes from bad to worse and after that it gets worser.
Why not try impeachment? Let it go on the record that some Americans saw what was happening and spoke up. If nothing else it would show the rest of the world that not all of us are stupid as hell. It would show that we believe in our constitution and our values. It would show that we still have a democracy, in spite of this administration. It would show that we the people still have a voice and we can use it.
The fact that torture is even an issue reflects that the Bush gang has consistently tried to legitimize torture.The fact that they did it in secret shows they were ashamed of it and that they were afraid it would not stand up under legal scrutiny (they were right about that).The most damning reality of this debacle is that most experts agree that torture does not work,so the Bush gang in actuality has showed the world that they are flat out mean for the sake of meanness.More proof of a punitive,moronic administration more interested in inflicting pain than obtaining factual information that could serve to protect the national interest.
If there is no swift legal recourse to terminate this criminal behavior,we have a highly flawed legal system seemingly controlled by a cadre of Pinochet types.Again, we have a case of no truth,no honor.
Consider, also, the broader impact of the memo:
- We're doubly damned as far as having any leverage in Myanmar, as we're not only guilty of torture, we have detention camps (the concept of which WH Spokesbarbie Dana Perino expressed shock over earlier this week).
- Forget Darfur, as well. America's strength was its principles; now it's been revealed to be a regime run by bullies and thugs, corrupt as any other. Oh, and with nukes.
- Forget China. While China will be mindful of its upcoming Olympics gig, we have no moral authority to address the question of human rights.
And what did we get in return? Jack shit. No one has given up anything under duress; there's even serious questions as to the veracity of information obtained from Abu Zubaydah and Ramzi bin al-Shibh (the last few times al-Shibh was cited as the source of a warning, it turned out to be groundless).
pissed off patricia @ 99:
I agree. By not at least trying we are giving silent approval of the bush war crimes.
Exactly, Janet. Now we have the proof of the crimes and if we don't at least try for justice we become part of the problem as does the House and the Senate. Anyone who condones what has been done reveals themselves as either cowards or enablers.
Fanon @ 93:
Wouldn't it be better to use the time trying to reverse the damage they've done. We don't really know how the 2008 election will turn out. We do know that we have a window of opportunity to undo some of the damage done. Wasting that time on symbolic gestures seems a little foolish.
God bless Amurica, land that I love, stand beside her, don't criticize her, for she does what she does just because...
sully18 @ 100:
It wsan't meanness, it was stupidity. They wanted to get confessions because they didn't have any evidence to prove their case for invasion. It is not that hard to figure this stuff out. It's harder to prove it.
Burma’s Military Junta Cites Legal Opinions of
Alberto Gonzales to Justify Crackdown on Protesters
Carmikl .....Wasting that time on symbolic gestures seems a little foolish.
I disagree. Standing up for truth and justice isn't symbolic. Someday in the future it will be recorded that nobody did ANYTHING to stop this madman. Sound familiar?
Phone calls made to Pelosi, Reid, Boxer, and George Miller. I left out Feinstein, since she's an enabler who put ol' Alberto in the job to begin with.
Just for anyone who isn't familiar with the site that Cape Cod linked to, it is a satirical site and not hard news. Didn't want anyone to freak out unnecessarily :)
Janet @ 108:
Right. I agree with you, Janet and POP. To sit back and say nothing is to give tacit approval to their actions. If the 'symbolic' gesture is wasted, then why protest, write letters, etc. Isn't that really all just 'symbolic' as well?
Shadowgm @ 109:
Just out of curiosity. What did you say when you called? I never know how to begin.
Perfect time to use one of my all time favorite quotes
"Unless someone like you, cares a whole awful lot, nothing's going to get better. It's not."
-Dr Seuss (from “The Lorax”)
Carmikl @ 104:
Frankly, we need to do both. Bush and Cheney are far from fangless wolves, and there's no doubt they've got more perfidy up their sleeves. And if the 2008 election lands in the GOP's favor (or had you forgotten the election process is no longer sacrosanct?), what then?
Fanon @ 111:
Voicing your opinion, writing letters and protesting is not symbolic. It is putting your opinions out there to be recognized.
Shadowgm @ 101:
When they say that it's Ok to do these things to our detainees, then they are also saying that it is ok for others to do these things to American prisoners in their custody. I wonder if they understood that they were sending that message to our enemies current or future?
but the pres. said we dont do it right?
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/torture/face-the-truth.html
[Deleted]
Fanon @ 112:
"Good morning. With the New York Times reporting that former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales issued a secret legal opinion authorizing torture, I believe it is time for Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid to reconsider the impeachment of President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. Thank you."
Be polite; it's likely you'll either be speaking to a voicemail system or an aide. Keep it short, simple, and to the point.
Fanon @ 112:
Tell them to read the article and put impeachment back on the table. Our democracy is at stake.
Ron @ 115:
I meant it could be seen as symbolic in the sense that it may not actually change anything, but, at least you have taken a stand and been counted.
The only fair punishment for Gonzales is for him to face all of the torture methods that he approved. He should be slapped, water boarded and thrown in the freezer. What a joke of an AG.
Makes you really proud of the leaders, doesn't it?! NOT!!! Time is now for their removal.
Shadowgm and Ron
Thanks!
Alberto Gonzales, living the illegal dream! What a twerp.
The msm is falling down on the job...again. It is apparently more important to our country to see the vid of Princess Diana getting in an elevator or Britney skipping the child custody hearing to go party. I feel so informed.
Ron @ 120:
Or even better, paste the article in e-mail and send it along with your comments. That way they (or a member of their staff) can't help but see it.
kaT @ 128:
I did paste the link. I hope they clicked on it.
OliverDreams @ 122:
The irony is that he won't remember any of it.
Janet @ 108:
But much can be done on the record. The Congressional hearings spotlighting their misdeeds are already forcing many of them out of office. We need to concentrate on passing legislation reversing the damage done
I think one of the reasons that Republicans keep getting the upper hand even though they are in the minority in this country is that Democrats are too concerned with symbolic or moral victories when Republicans realize that you just can't take those to the bank.
Janet, we must be sharing the same brain matter today. I came in here to write exactly what you wrote in comment number 126.
Extremism meet Extremism
I said it yesterday and I’ll say it again, only an extreme form of civil (financial) disobedience will get their attention.
I think we all agree there is tremendous frustration amongst progressives that we can’t get our ideas implemented by our elected representatives, and that increasingly we feel powerless.
I think there’s a way to shock the system that will bring about the changes we desire. A way to get them to see we are serious and we want things changed!
The way most things get done politically is through leverage, and the greatest leverage we possess as American citizens is not our vote (although that is important). I believe it is via our consuming. After all, about 70% of US GDP is consumer spending.
How can we leverage our roles as consumers to change this country? By non-violent, financial protest. And I don’t mean by stopping our consuming, at least not at first. I’m talking about something much more shocking (extreme) that is commensurate with the anger and frustration we all feel.
I’m suggesting we start acting like a labor union (call it the American Consumer Union) and call a strike. And the form of the strike is to stop making payments on our primary debts (i.e. house, cars, and credit cards). An American consumer working in union could cripple the financial apparatus that funds the military-industrial complex. We the people could force our Congress to defund military operations by defunding the apparatus that is its life-blood.
It’s not illegal (as far as I know) to miss payments on many of our debts (if it is then pay them, i.e. insurance policies required by law). Of course it will damage our credit rating temporarily, but it’s a small price to pay compared to the price our military and the Iraqis are now paying, and the price our children will pay for the corrupted, hateful policies of our current governmental system.
I’m not suggesting wholesale default on our debts, I’m suggesting clogging up the system to the degree required to get our elected representatives to enact policies that stop harming our nation. One can’t say for sure what degree of clogging that will take, but if we are serious about doing something about the problems, then this goes to the heart of the machinery that is destroying our constitution and our futures.
It be implemented in stages. Stage 1 is a consumer strike of one month of no payments made. If the people’s representatives are still unresponsive after a couple of months, Stage 2 is a three month strike. Rinse and repeat until it matters
We live in an economy built on debt, personal, corporate and government. It is the life-blood of our financial system. How better to attack the corrupt political system?
Our greatest hope to change an unresponsive government is to turn the tables on them and demonstrate who’s the boss. Right now, they think they pull all the levers (and they do to our great detriment), and they control the power of the purse (our tax dollars). We have no recourse to stop paying taxes, but we do have recourse through withholding the cash flows without which our financial system will likely be crippled.
I volunteer as executioner to the International Court of Justice
Heliogabalus @ 134:
Are you going to wait for trial and conviction?
Secret memos: DNC refuses to ask for them as condition for AG-confirmation. Why does the DNC hate oversight?
Shadowgm @ 114:
Someone referring to the "rule of law" as a "symoblic gesture"? If you are, then get out of the way, and lets get some leadership to prosecute these war criminals in Congress.
drtoxic @ 3:
Just because the MSM "won't cover it" doesn't mean it's irrelevant. Voters decide, as do prosecutors and judges. War crimes trials on the way.
Invade and torture! C'mon, America, why don't you want to stay the course? I wish 100,000 people should just surround the capital hill buildings and say "Sorry, you don't work here anymore. We need some new elections and people who are you know... human beings, running this thing."
I sympathize with the dilemma that speaker Pelosi finds herself in. Under current laws of succession, if she were to push for impeachment, that would put Cheney in charge. If she impeached him, that would leave her next in line for the presidency. She would then be accused of impeachment for purely personal political gain by the right. Shes caught between ''Iraq and a hard place''.
kevin willick @ 140:
That's a total cop-out. There's no dilemma. Either you violated the rule of law or you didn't. Gee, I am the deputy chief of police and I caught the chief with child porn. I'd really like to arrest him, but someone might think I'm doing this for political gain.
No offense, but I think Nancy needs to grow a big hairy set and get to work. And I say that as a woman.
Helloworld @ 139:
Good idea but In order to do that, implies that people are actually giving a shit about what is going on.....
Fanon @ 111:
But we are talking about impeachment, not writing letters or protesting. Impeachment would take up the time and treasure that Congress could be using to effectively reverse some of the damage done by the Bush administration. Things look good for the 2008 election but who knows?
We need to use this window of opportunity as effectively as possible. If we spend our time on an impeachment process that we know will fail in the Senate, we may find that we have squandered our window of opportunity with nothing to show for it but an impeachment that has no more meaning than Bill Clinton's impeachment.
Wondering @ 137:
If you know that it will fail ahead of time, then it is a symbolic gesture.
kevin willick @ 140:
Of course, she could avoid that dilemma by impeaching Cheney first, then the new Vice President would be in line ahead of her.
Carmikl @ 145:
Republicans are blocking everything that comes to the floor anyway. If not, Bush vetoes it. The only way to put the administration on notice is to impeach.
kevin willick @ 140:
And is the order of succession Pelosi's fault, or is the simple truth that it'd be a non-issue if Bush and Cheney had simply respected the law?
Ron @ 146:
Then, of course, the Republican's will block Bush's removal in the Senate.
Here's a cartoon I did. Waterboard of Directors: shows Cheney, Bush, Gonzo et al in medieval torture session:
http://civilwrite.blogspot.com/2007/06/american-commitment-to-torture.html
These people like Rumsfeld and Gonzales don't deserve to collect their U.S. Government retirement pay. I say if we can't get them sent to jail, let's try to take their retitrement pay away.
Carmikl @ 143:
The Constitution provides for the self-corrective and, sadly, sometimes necessary process of impeachment. The founding fathers did not seek to throw off the yoke of one tyrant to have it replaced in a matter of years (or even generations) by another.
As the Declaration of Independence states, such matters are never trivial. And we certainly have cause - in detail and multiple instances - to consider impeachment. It is up to our elected representatives to respect not only the opinion of the people, but the spirit of our founding documents.
We must not simply bow our heads and hope for better times come 2008, not when the assault on our civil liberties and Constitutional protections continues, nor when the Bush Administration continues its drive towards another war on specious evidence.
And I don't see Congress reversing anything, nor considering even less severe measures available to them (such as formal censure). In fact, the very people who rode into office in 2006 on the 'we'll end the war' ticket are now peddling reverse-Friedmans and telling us it'll happen in the spring. No, summer. No, winter. No, just wait until 2008, and then we'll really get us out of Ir-- oh, wait, no, it'll take at least until 2013 ...
I respect your opinion, but the line was crossed so long ago that we have no excuse for not seeking impeachment. "Congress could be spending time/treasure on more worthy goals" is nothing but a blood-soaked strawman.
The Gonzales justice department secretly endorsed torture techniques... Why am I not surprised.......Comey telling his colleges they would all be ashamed in the end ain't the half of it.. The whole goddamned country should be ashamed of this man, (Gonzales) the administration he was ideologically linked at the hip to, the practices he supported and advocated.....Sick and disgusting is what the DOJ and the executive branch under Bush/Gonzales has been these last seven plus years................JD
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