WWII veteran Nazi interrogators denounced Bush's Torture techniques
By John Amato Saturday Oct 06, 2007 4:05pm
(By Bill O'leary) Will Limbaugh call these men "phony soldiers?"
For six decades, they held their silence.
The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.
"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.
"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."...read on
BushCo. and the Republican Congress will always be known as the "Party of Torture." Their pundits as well are a disgrace to the American flag that they wrap themselves around in everyday...
Login or Register to post comments.
Bush: The Torture President. Proudly lowering the bar on human dignity for eight years.
I'm sure Scalia will be able to come up with a legal opinion that there is no inherent right to human dignity in the Constitution.
He never compromised his humanity....I doubt very highly BushCo and his supporters could comprehend what that man said.
"I never compromised my humanity" Says it all, doesnt it. About them, about Bush and about the governments henchmen down to the soldiers swinging the bats.
Strawberry @ 2:
what would a chimp know about humanity?
[deleted--do not advocate violence against anyone on this site]. And then stop warterboarding..
I think GWB would consider a game of chess torture.
Jeff @ 6:
How about just making him ANSWER A FUCKING QUESTION under oath. That would probably be enough.
I subscribe to WWII Magazine, last year they had an article about extracting information from those few captured Japanese soldiers. A retired General from WWII (he was a junior officer then) denoucned today's techniques and torture. Those under his command were prohibited and they knew torture does not work. There was another WWII officer in the same article who backed his statement.
The following month's "Letters to the Editor" of course had the obligatory dismissal of his these soldiers viewpoints, likely from someone who, like Bush/Cheney, decided that military service and the thought of actually getting shot at in a war was not for him.
Yes, a game of chess might work. But the ability to play chess might be perceived as a sign of intelligence and such a person would clearly be deemed ineligible to work in Intelligence.
"I never compromised my humanity..."
that doesn't really work for machines like Cheney and Rumsfeld does it?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Salutes these Patriots!
The sad thing is that there are still people that look up to our president. Having a leader who is lower than whale shit, where does that put those people?
Well either this guy is right, or he's another "phony" soldier.
Here's an interesting observation (at least I think so):
Those who fought in WW2 were from the generation that either had also fought in WW1 or grew up during that period.
Maybe that trauma instilled some sort of humanity and respect in them that the years have lost to our generation.
It is clear to me that we do not have the kind of compassion or respect for humanity that they possessed, we have instead consumer values colored by video game conflict that makes the enemy not even real. Just an abstraction like an adversary of some computer game.
Too bad they weren't able to pass that humanity down through the generations, we are worse for the loss of it.
EJG @ 4:
Chimpanzanity? Chimpinsanity? Chimpanity?
This is our fault. We put these people in office, we leave them in office, we tolerate them. We are just as guilty as they. The American "experiment" is D E A D and it failed.
This only confirms what reasonable people already know;torture does not produce reliable intelligence. If a person is under the impression that they will die or be severely injured, they will tell the person torturing them whatever they want to hear so the torture will stop, whether it is true or not.
bush & company are lacking any humanity at all. They just vetoed S-Chip because they "love poor children" and emergency rooms deliver fantastic health care.
EJG @ 4:
Even a chimpanzee has more humanity than Bush.
There were the Russians of course who have known better. The US is very close to becoming the Soviets of the XXI century if it continues down this path. Mass killing the Quds Forces, torturing and assassinating the Iranians will be suicidal for this nation. Anyway, Chaney in the White House knows better. He is never wrong after all, is he.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWPIleYTjB4
The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation"
The phrase was used previous to the Bush administration.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_v...
These fascists are unbelievably successful, all the while being portrayed as bumbling idiots and incompetents... however...if you change your perspective to a Machiavellian one, or a Straussian vision...then you have to wonder.
The Competent Neocons...
Iraq War - check
Stacked Supreme Court with Neocons with a cake-walk confirmation - check
Escaping justice for numerous domestic and International War crimes - check
escaping impeachment - check
Enriched the war machine - check
Tax cuts to benefit the uber rich elite - check
Enriched the oil industry - check
Gutted Habeas Corpus - Check
Rationalized torture - check
Misplaced Trillions (Sept 10th, 2001) and later Billions of dollars - check
Reestablished record breaking opium production in Afghanistan - check
Implemented Extraordinary Rendition and secret torture camps - check
Manipulated - Stole 2000 and 2004 elections - check
Lied about Iraqi WMD's - check
Lied about Jessica Lynch-Pat Tillman - check
Backdoor draft with stop-loss and other technicalities and special exemptions - check
Stunningly deficient medical treatment of veterans and denial of promised benefits to soldiers - check
Working on reigniting Russian-American Cold War (Russian bomber flights, etc) - check
Gutted independent officer corps - check
Christianitization of the military - check
Massive expenditures for Star Wars, Space Weapons, Internet cybercorps - check
Intimidation (or cooperation) of Media - check
Permanent military bases in Iraq - check
Passed Patriot Act after convenient Anthrax and Manchurian Sniper attacks - check
Passed Military Commissions Act - check
Massive debt to break government (and public) - check
Signing statements contradicting legislation - check
Executive Orders laying groundwork for Executive Branch dominated Martial Law-COG
Electronic surveillance - check
Warrantless wiretaps and internet - check
First-rate mercenary force enriched and empowered - check
Blinding of America to Iranian nuclear program - check
Decimated New Orleans post-Katrina (dry-run for martial law) - check
Coopted Justice Department - check
Turned over regulatory agencies to the foxes of industry (ex. Mining, Forestry) - check
Freed Scooter Libby with no political cost - check
Bankruptcy "reform" - check
No Child Left Behind and other Orwellian named govt initiatives- check
Garnered cooperation of Democrats to enable agenda - check
Unending blank checks from Congress - check
Convenient benefiting from a "New Pearl Harbor" - check
Pulled a sham Investigation on 9-11 over on the public for a paltry $15 million - check
Conning the American public that they are incompetent - mucho grande check. A propaganda coup de gras rivaling anything Goebels suggested
What more do you want to qualify them as a success? Most people think they are incompetent because they are operating according to a different game-plan, or paradigm, than the normal person. Normal people wouldn't operate at this level of corruption and genuine evil. These people are expert Machiavellian psychopaths (with a strong dose of Straussian Noble Lie telling) and to attempt to associate normal behaviors to them is an exercise in futility.
Oh yeah-Rushbo is going to go to town on these old "traitors"
Yeah, all those who served during the Greatest Generation are phonies.
While I think the current religious fanatics are a different breed and that such humanitarian gestures won't get anywhere information-wise, it doesn't mean that torture is a good thing. The ends cannot justify the means (and the means don't work).
In watching the latest tee-vee documentary on WW2, I am glad that Ken Burns did touch on how WW2 has left lasting scars on those who fought. I think for too long there has been too much of a romantic gloss painted over the war years. Too much is made of the big picture and not enough about the suffering endured by those whose lives were directly affected.
I am glad you posted this very important article. I plan on using it tomorrow with my 8th graders for a compare and contrast with an NYT article on how Bush says interrogation methiods are not torture. They are researching the 8th amendment.
Monie @ 23:
dang, you stole my thunder
most of the vets of the other wars are disgusted by this administration
i want el druggo and his rushbots to dare attack these ww2 vets
i double dare them
The president calls our economy "vibrant" -- so for this administration, torture is simply "massage therapy."
At least these few wise old men had the guts to tell the truth.
Truth Be Told @ 22:
and there it is!
well put!
Symes says: It is clear to me that we do not have the kind of compassion or respect for humanity that they possessed, we have instead consumer values colored by video game conflict that makes the enemy not even real. Just an abstraction like an adversary of some computer game.
so which video game made george bush, dick cheney, rumsfeld and alllll the other evil doers evil?
George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. “We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”…
I believe we have spotted the problem... ' a battle of wits' - if perchance the Bush admin had allowed the people with wits to set the standard...
"We extracted information in a battle of wits." So that's why Bush approves torture! The Bush administration would have to enter a battle of wits unarmed!
uncle joe mccarthy @ 26:
Sorry, Uncle Joe--I was uncharacteristically quick on the draw. However, Rush will not hesitate in his attempt to tarnish these men. You don't even need to double dog dare him (which is a breach of dare etiquette. You need to dare and dog dare before a double dare).
How is it possible that a person like Georgw W. Bush, professing to be a Christian, in a position to make policy, at every turn, makes decisions (he is the decider) that are detrimental to the care and well being of people?
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Bush is attempting to institute policy that will result in the deaths of billions of people. The neocons realize that the Earth's resourses are finite. To insure more years of their reign they need to reduce the consumption of the scarce resources left on earth. Knowing that they will cause the deaths of these people, makes them encourage the breeding of replacement workers, thus the anti-abortion and anti-condom policies.
Why else would a man who claimes to represent Christians do what he has done? Can we consider his actions, actions that have harmed the people of this great nation, acts of terrorism and impeach him?
Get this putz out of office and cut off his government paycheck. If this D- MBA had been installed as CEO of any major corporation in January 2001 and run the business like he has run the country, do you think the Board of Directors would heve kept him this long?
slippytoad @ 7:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
How about that Oath, which he has taken twice (sadly)? Maybe they have a secret legal memo construing the "Constitution" as the USS Constitution?
An oldie but goodie: When the C.I.A. Played by the Rules
Milt Bearden, a thirty year veteran of the C.I.A.'s Directorate of Operations writes in the Times about tactics used by the C.I.A. during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
He relates the story of a downed Soviet pilot that was transfered to C.I.A. custody. The pilot wasn't tortured, and was very impressed at the treatment he received in American hands. He was eventually returned to the Soviet Union.
german prisoners of war held all over the south and s. west during that time all went home with stories of fair treatment and good food. you don't engender love for your system by slapping someone on the head repeatedly.
Correction: Kolm would most likely have been sent to interrogate Hess in England, not Germany, where the Nazi was a prisoner.
[...] Maybe the Freak-Shows in charge are not as stupid as we think. [...]
bush/cheney and the rethuglian congress are the nazis today.
they are anti-American and anti-US Constitution.
When will these great men be labeled as "phony soldiers" or "unpatriotic?"
Too bad the same humanity was not exhibited in the torturing of African-Americans, systematically.
Where's the fun in that? Bush needs the pictures of bloodied prisoners in women's underwear to jack off to in front of Condi. If we don't torture, where'll Bush get his porn and snuff films?
Torture requires that we demonize our victims and, in doing so, dehumanize ourselves.
WE ARE A NATION OF WAR CRIMINALS
Well he was matching wits with them Not fair to put Bush into a dual with half a weapon
I used to think most military people valued honor and integrity as this man did and does, but where have they been? Where are the rest of the WWII vets, Korean War vets, Vietnam vets, Gulf War vets, active military on the inhuman American policy of torturing prisoners? I know they're out there, disgusted as the rest of us. We need to hear from them.
Once again we can thank The Greatest Generation for speaking truth to power.
To raker above:
They are disgusted. My husband is a Vietnam vet. My uncle is a Korean War vet. I'm just glad my father, a WWII vet, isn't alive to witness this sordid part of US history. He would be just sick about it. Then there's my cousin, an Iraq War vet, who returned to Minnesota as part of the longest serving unit to find that because they had served only 729 days in Iraq they weren't eligible for full veterans benefits. They needed to serve 730 days.
Quentin Tarantino (with uncredited assistance from Roger Avary) understood why torture doesn't work better than Bush...
A line of dialogue from Resevoir Dogs...
Chris Penn (about the cop sitting in the chair after getting beaten by Keitel, Buscemi, and Madsen)...
"If you beat this guy enough, he'll tell ya he started the goddam Chicago fire, but that doesn't necessarily make it fuckin' so!"...
JaneaneTheAcerbicGoblin @ 47:
Yeah, the problem is that you have an administration filled with Mr. Blondes.
ron @ 20:
Take out the words "very close" and you'll have it right.
raker @ 45:
They ARE out there...the MSM is just ignoring the story.
Symes @ 14:
Here is my observation, interesting or not:
“We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture,” said Henry Kolm ...
”During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone,” said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. “We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”…
From the WaPo article:
"Many of the interrogators were refugees from the Third Reich."
So many of them were immigrants, right? No real Americans, right? They were Germans/ German Yews, right?
They became Americans.
In my opinion they were the best Germany had in that time. And they were and still are a huge loss for Germany.
And that´s what I´ll never forgive my fellow Germans.
I think you've got it half right. Actually, I think the modern-day Rupublican Party is becoming the "Torture Makakas" Party. That's really all their left with - "We'll ratfuck this country from top to bottom, but we'll sure as hell torture the crap out of the makakas!"
Old Soldiers Miss the Point
They are sincerely telling there experiences about the efficacy of their techniques. They assume that the goal of the CIA and other torture programs since WWII has been to obtain information that would protect us, improve our national security or defend freedom (or protect the troops). Nothing could be further from the truth.
There are two main purposes for the torture of the last sixty years.
1. As a Tool of State Terrorism: To terrorize weak and near defenseless civilian populations into shock, inaction, pacification and submission to tyranny.
2. To obtain false information and confessions: Bad (false) "Intel" is used as a propaganda tool to defraud the troops and the American public (and others) so as to justify the large number and variety of "war crimes" and “crimes against humanity" past, present and future used in worldwide conquest of the "Third World".
Torture is not, and has never been needed to protect or defend "the Homeland". None of those tortured have posed any threat to us (or any of those that US decision makers have claimed to be liberating or defending). Whenever accurate information is desired or needed, the lawful and humane techniques described in the story are used.
It is a fact that the foreign (and domestic) campaign of terror continues; does not benefit America in any way; greatly enriches and empowers the mastermind treasonous profiteers and their minion subversives which they have infiltrated into all branches of our government; and without any doubt poses the greatest danger Americans have ever faced. Together, these traitors work to strip freedom, democracy and speech from the only ones who could stop them (or even slow them down): Americans.
These old soldiers are correct, but like the experts and whistle-blowers from the military, intelligence agencies, every other branch of our government, and academia, they fail to grasp what is right in front of them. The criminals that plan, implement, justify and cover up the worldwide system of torture already know that it does not produce credible intelligence. That is not why they use it. But it is very successful in helping them achieve their true priorities. If we keep their true priorities in mind, most of what has here-to fore been inexplicable makes sense. Remember, virtually every one that has “gotten it wrong” on Afghanistan, Iraq, 9/11, bin Laden, etc. etc. have been promoted and rewarded (not punished or rehabilitated). Those that got the “Intel”, the planning or things right and tried to tell everyone ahead of time etc. have been purged, neutralized, marginalized, or eliminated.
As unpleasant, disillusioning, and threatening these obvious truths might be, we as Americans must Wake up while there is still time to stop the monsters and get our country back.
JK
@ #51, JK
BINGO!
Interrogation chess sounds so... so civilized. And rather cool. However did we get away from that notion of gentility?
JK is dead on. I just finished listening to Naomi Klein talk about Disaster Capitalism on CSPAN After Words. Bad confessions that prove the administration's point of view are much more valuable than good confessions that give us actionable intelligence.
In some cases, torture was outsourced. What better way to obtain false confessions and continue the culture of Disaster Capitalism than to hand it over to someone who stands to profit from it?
But they were nazis! Inhumans!
Oy Veh dey Shoahcaust! Shombetty call Podhoretz, ve have areshleves a 'Domestic Insurgowitz".
People don't torture people to obtain useful information. They torture people to make them say what they want to hear. They do it because they're sadists.
Truth Be Told @ 22:
I've always agreed. Yes, they appear to be total knob-ends. However, the Bush admin has, in a short time, consolidated more power than many administrations combined.
Internationally, expectations have been set back hundreds of years (pre-emptive war, anyone?) and it would appear that many Americans have very little expectation from the President for... well.. anything positive.
Sadly, I don't think such an excessive & successful grab for power will be suddenly given up because of a little rule like a 2 term limit. Either Bush goes & the machine stays, or Bush AND the machine stays. The next presidency is a poisoned chalice for whomever takes it on.
=my2c
BC
Whoops. Yes, I realised I contradicted myself on the last line.
I meant to say: Anyone who wants to reverse the course is taking a poisoned chalice.
They extracted information in a battle of wits. Busheviks extrude disinformation to a cohort of half-wits.
"We do not torture" has the same kind of ring to it that "I did not have sex with that woman" has, except that at least one president had the balls to own up to it
Kay @ 17:
... or the prisoner will, out of vengeance, give false information to throw a monkey wrench in to the torturers' side's plans, hoping to induce casualties on the opposing side or, at the least, a setback in their progress.
I'm suprised Limbaugh hasn't called him a traitor or a phony ALREADY.
IrresistibleB1tch @ 28:
I think that I might have phrased that headline a little differently. I thought for a moment I was going to read something about Bush's torturous ways being condemned by former Nazis. You know, when the Nazis are telling you to ease back a bit on the torture, perhaps you ought to ease back a bit.
I keep thinking - what if someone like Gonzo of Cheney or Bush was my dad? That must be the most horroble thing-it would be like being Hitler's child.
These are the most disgusting, horrible, ugly, vile things to creep upon the Earth.
"Humanity" was the very first thing they willingly sacrificed in their Faustian deals.
Then they started sacrificing human lives to feed the devil.
The Christian fundies have one part of the story right - when the Antichrist appears on earth, the people won't recognize him and many will follow him believing him to be righteous.
What they don't realize is the prophecy is about them. The Christians who voted for Bush are THE VERY ONES that cannot recognize Evil and followed him believing him to be righteous.
All they did was predict their own gullibility.
they have to torture because they are attempting to cover their lies.
the oldtimer got information through wit because he was actually talking to someone who was guilty of more than looking arabic.
all those tortured souls rotting in american gulags and assorted rendition destinations, not a trial amongst them. the guy that admitted to everything including hiding elvis, not included...
their biggest scalp to date is john walker lind [spell].
its all part of the hoax were all living through.
The reason you torture someone is to get them to say something you want them to say.
The war on terror is a TV Show and they needed the bad guys in the orange suits to say their lines.
KSM
End of story.
EJG @ 4:
Please don't pick on the chimps... what have they done to you?
Wow... the delusion here is ridiculous. I am actually amazed that natural selection hasn't claimed more of you.
Anyone that believes for one second that a religious fanatic (be they muslim, christian, etc) is even remotely on par with a Nazi is deluded. Of course I already knew that with your ridiculous /tinfoilhat claims of Bush.
These people are animals and should be treated as such. It's a shame you spoiled children can't appreciate everything your country does to keep you safe.
There's your next Move on ad right there. Put em on the Today show. Get em out there! If there's one thing middle America respects it's The Greatest Generation Vets and their opinions.
Omni @ 70:
Who the fuck do you think you are to claim that human beings, whether they are religious or ideological or which type of fanatics ever, are animals? You´re definitely a NAZI and you should be treated as such!
# 71 is for # 69 Omni (!)
Has any one of the dozens of individuals calling Limbaugh names actually listened to the show the day he supposedly made that comment... I may not like those in power but I can say I do my fact-checking before I shoot my mouth off. For the record, I am a Strict-Constructionist Libertarian. Not republican, democrat, populist, anarchist (though I do have some tendencies that way), marxist, etc etc etc.
The "phony soldier" comment is a lie. Plain and simple. Listen to the day the show played and tell me when he says it. Hey, if he did, where's the sound bite on TV and Radio? Where? You're telling me that we can acquire leaks on just about anything done in government today but not one sound bite exists of Rush uttering these words? I smell a smear job. And no matter the target, such an act is wrong.
Actually I'm an Air Force veteran, and I cannot stand boosh. That may be partially because as a Texan I had to put up with one term of him as head goober. He would have two terms but he was running for ruining our country through most of the second, so it really shouldn't count.
Don't forget that other phony soldier, Sgt Major Eric Haney, one of the founders of Delta Force. Just because he served with distinction and valor throughout his career and had first hand experience interrogating bad guys without using torture, he thinks he knows more than Bill O'Reilly.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200606070006
It's amazing how these guys, just because they put their lives on the line in defense of this country and its currently back-burnered principles, how these guys think just because they've sacrificed comfort and fortune for patriotism, they think just because of that that they know more than a guy who knows how to use a falafel. Sgt Major Haney, our leaders know what's best for them, and if that means waterboarding a few of them just for fun, well, you have to remember these men work long hours without a break (except for Mr. Bush, but just because he's not working it don't mean he's not thinking about stuff) so they deserve to have their fun:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/delta_force_founder_no_real_threat_t...
OH, and will someone re-post the sound bite of Fat Bimbo Rush Limbaugh using the "phony soldier" term. Bob Road apparently missed it. And maybe run the clip where he calls all Liberals unpatriotic and unAmerican, and the clip where he calls all opponents to Bush's lying f**king war disloyal. Bob, I don't even want to hear a kind word or a word in defense of that great fat tub of ass-pimply lard. I want him sent to Gitmo and peed on by the interrogators he and Bill O'Reilly think are such sweethearts.
PoliShifter @ 42:
Walmart?
Sorry about the attack on Rush. But I get real angry just thinking about a disloyal chickenhawk coward like him questioning anyone's patriotism, and that's what he does, day in and day out. The audio clips will show what I mean, if anyone can re-post them.
Where are the interrogators like this today?
http://people.tribe.net/73d63c32-38e6-4320-8f8e-c94b605ef33a/blog/2b10e2...
Do prisoners ever say, "See you later, interrogator"?
hmmm. Is it just me or did the title of this article have absolutely nothing to do with the article itself?
Can anyone point out the part where they actually 'denounce' torture?
Man, this website sucks. Journalistic integrity for the win. Quit grasping for straws, nutjobs.
[Deleted. Thanks for sharing your view of reality here. But you are off topic-Sitemonitor]
The terrorists don't have to do anything but say boo, and boosh does their bidding to undo the American Way.
Since when is exercising a right treasonous?
Were Gingrich et al treasonous while denouncing Clinton's successful bombing raids of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
[Deleted. Thanks for sharing your view of reality here. But you are off topic-Sitemonitor]
One man's torture is another man's "We Don't Torture"
see: http://satireshmatire.blogspot.com/2007/10/it-all-depends-on-your-defini...
[Deleted. Promoting violence-Sitemonitor]
Then you're not an American.
Can we start the torturing now?
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
Actually I had a Top Secret Clearance in the Air Force, and among my duties was encrypting and decrypting messages, and I had to attend one classified meeting on the Middle East, and tell no one in my unit what I learned.
Saint Augustine @ 12:
Appropriately scathing but must we insult the whales?
jay @ 88:
The "enemy" is anyone who wants to live in peace.
ysbaddaden @ 92:
I'm not in your unit, do tell!
Shandooga @ 93:
Ambergris, an important ingredient in some perfumes, are found in whale's gastro-intestinal tracts, so unlike reichwingers they're good for something.
Truth Be Told @ 22:
Impressive! Well done.
Actually, I think the enemy are succeeding where the chimp is failing. They lost their training grounds in Afghanistan due to the Clinton missle strikes, and had the last of their encampments destroyed during our Afghani war. Due to a power vacuum caused by extremely bad planning some may have found new training grounds in Iraq. They're not so pinned down as we are, so if they strike anywhere else in the world, we would be hardpressed to respond.
In other words, they're fighting us there, so they don't have to elsewhere.
And of course whether it's Al Qaeda proper, or merely Al Qaeda inspired cells, they're a small portion of the fighters who in many cases seem to be squabbling over religion or other internecine battles.
[...] Crooks and Liars [...]
jay @ 90:
when did you serve????
Since this thread is about World War II era interrogators who used non-violent methods, were they liberals who didn't get it?
Why do reichwingers like so much to insult Americans who have served?
One thing I wonder is if German POW's were treated any differently from our Japanese POW's?
I doubt our chimp in charge has the time of day for these TRUE PATRIOTS.....I SALUTE YOU.......sah USMC
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Banned poster-Sitemonitor]
Someone @ 21:
HAs anyone noticed how often the Bush Speechwriters translate titles, labels, and even whole paragraphs from speeches/writings by Hitler or other figures in the Third Reich? For a while, it looked as if his role model was Woodrow Wilson, but one does have to wonder.
[...] was written about on the blog crooksandliars.com on Sunday. I think it’s important to bring this up as much as possible. This is why people [...]
Some Police Officers in American are skilled enough to extract false confessions from suspects without using violence proving that you don't have to use torture or enhanced techniques to abuse someone's civil rights.
The flip side of that argument is that there are thousands of highly skilled police officers across this country who use legal techniques to break suspects every day. It is true that they don't speak Arabic, but some could learn Arabic, and others could certainly train people who do speak Arabic. Why not recruit interrogators from the pool of highly skilled interrogators that already exists?
I think its a matter of mindset. Once they are conditioned to believe that nothing but torture works, they aren't willing to try anything else.
What you fail to see Jay (and GeorgeW, and Rushbo, and Bill-O)...
It is not about Liberal and Conservative.
It is not about Republican and Democrat.
It is simply a matter of RIGHT and WRONG.
Labeling people only shows how little you understand about what we (as a species) are trying to do on this planet.
Strength is not measured in might.
Strength is more often measured by a person's willingness to do what is right when tested.
There are times to raise arms and fight against Oppression, to defend yourself when attacked.
And you do so with all the force and conviction you can muster. Your goal is focused to a fine point. You are committed entirely. You crush the enemy swiftly and completely. Leaving no remnants behind. You make no mistake and you only have to fight that battle once.
Because it is the Humanity and the RIGHT we are fighting for. There is no compromise and there is no alternative.
There is no RIGHT (or Richeousness) in the fight we have in Iraq.
If we wanted to take on a just cause...we would do something in Darfur, we would do something in Rwanda, or would've in Cambodia, or better in Sarajevo. But we have no interests there. There is nothing for America to gain there.
Today, in its stead, we choose to fight in Iraq. To feed the M.I.C., to feed our Barons, to make the American populous feel safer.
We are not moving forward. Today is not better than yesterday. Measure GeorgeW's (and every other World Leader) success in what they did for the world, or for mankind. Any other measurement falls short of OUR goals.
Bob Road @ 74:
Your reality check just bounced. I did hear him say it. You can also see the FULL transcript (Not Rush's edited one) at media matters. You do not smell a smear. What you smell is a cover up. The soundbites are out there. Try using "the google" and youtube.
jay @ 106:
Who is "the enemy?"
"Your reality check just bounced. I did hear him say it. You can also see the FULL transcript (Not Rush’s edited one) at media matters. You do not smell a smear. What you smell is a cover up. The soundbites are out there. Try using “the google” and youtube." - Peoples Front of Judea (post 111)
Media Matters... an openly anti-conservative site.... and where's their reference to an independent source with original text/audio/video? Nowhere to be found. Way to really back your case up.
Here's an interesting little correction buried at the bottom of the site referring to the very article (posted at the top) where a reader points out the little flaw.
Hmmmm... Like I said. Someone show me some honest, on-the-spot record from an independent source or perhaps from a media station carrying the broadcast.
For reference, here are the sources
Media Matters Article List for 'Phony Soldier' Story
Phony Soldier Article List
Reader Correction (Best guess, Oct 5 or within one day after)
Reader Correction
ANd it turns out, Macbeth is a "phony soldier" for real! Busted by the feds for lying.... brilliant.
Limbaugh's Own site
Rush Limbaugh
includes his side of the full account in an easy to read format featuring a variety of sources
Anatomy of a Smear
ALso, for easy reference, his post of the full, unedited transcript (for memebers, there's audio too... I'm not a member)
Transcript
Interesting apology for Media Matters smear campaign... (never seen a member of the media offer an apology for anything, much less something that doesn't seem to be their fault.)
Apology
Now, for the flamers who haven't already started their angry retort (ofcourse having not read any of the above links), this is my notice that I know and acknowledge the transcript given by Rush could be edited (yes, thereby implying that he could be lying). And yet, it is funny that a search through google reveals not one complete source transcript (I'll admit that my searching skills are not perfect). One would think such a gem of truth would be prized and touted as the answer to the whole gig. And yet, the only person putting forth one is Rush, with no one else claiming that such a document doesn't exist or coming forward with one of their own. Likewise, all the articles smearing Mr. Limbaugh cherry pick lines from the event or transcript thereof without an available full, unedited copy... That's called taking out of context... Just about any opinion piece in the world could be cherry picked to say something it doesn't. The truth is in the original words.
Since there is a lack of contrary evidence to back the claim that the transcript he provides is edited... I'm forced to, whether my personal feelings would say so or not, to accept Mr. Limbaugh's point on this matter.
Please... if anyone does have a source transcript from a reputable source, put it out there for all of us to judge.
Login or Register to post comments.