MSNBC: Eager to paint Hillary as a harpy
By Nicole Belle Sunday Oct 07, 2007 8:02pmWhile I have many issues with Hillary Clinton, both as a political figure and as a candidate, I really hate it when the media is suckered into furthering Republican memes, especially ones as misogynistic as this.
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t Bill)
In an Iowa appearance over the weekend, Hillary Clinton fielded a question on her support for the Lieberman-Kyl Amendment (and let's be honest, she needs to answer for that vote considering how recklessly the Bush administration treated the Senate vote over Iraq). Unlike those who are "professional journalists", the questioner, Randall Rolph, followed up and got more insistent with Hillary. The exchange has been described as testy or harsh, though it just sounds like she got annoyed and accused Rolph of being a plant. Kudos to Rolph for asking a question the traditional media hasn't and kudos to Hillary for not relying on pre-approved audiences and questions like our current president.
But ever eager to show how unlikable Hillary is (a common theme among Republicans, both politico and layperson alike), MSNBC covered the same non-issue no less than 3 times in the course of an hour, with such charming descriptions as "shrill" and "fishwife-y".
Cheri Jacobus, Republican strategist (naturally) and former RNC spokesperson:
You know, I think this is a real problem for Hillary Clinton and her campaign. If she could have been as calm and rational as say, our good friend here was, maybe she would have gotten away with it. But this is a real problem. She came off as shrill and fishwife-y and thin-skinned. And when we're looking to a Commander in Chief, to elect someone as Commander in Chief, I don't think that's a persona that you want to emit. It's been a problem that they've had with her since her days in Arkansas as First Lady in Arkansas and I think that this highly controlled persona that she's had up until now really is starting to look like it's just barely under the surface, that's she's going to come out with these fishwife-y comments and it is a problem they're going to have to resolve.
I'm curious, we've all seen testy exchanges with McCain, Giuliani and even George Bush...have they ever been described in the media as being "shrill"?
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Republican strategist (naturally) and former RNC spokesperson
Republican gossip monger (naturally) and former RNC spokeschick
There; fixed it. Just talking the GOP talk, dontcha know....
Frischimpeach...Go Indians.
I mean, as long as she is going with "fishwife-y" and useless crap like that.
who says they are suckered in????? It seems more than plain they are willing parrots of the republican party. Hey it has worked for them for years now. Why should they change?
I don't think I've ever heard the term fishwife-y before. I'm sure it's a pejorative, but sounds pretty lame as pejoratives go.
The reporter sounds like a Major League Asshole.
Definitely.
Why doesn't anyone ram this tidbit up the Rpugs craw... Shrub is the Commander in Chief of US FORCES during wartime NOT the nation as a whole. This giving credence to this illusion unfortunately lends more authority to this cretin than he deserves. never mind the fact that the US never declared war on Iraq.
That's nonsense. Hillary is anything but shrill. I think she's unusually even and confident when she speaks, even in this episode. I'm not going to vote for her of course, but it has nothing to do with her tone of voice. I think the only soul-searching she did before voting to authorize an invasion of Iraq was whether her vote would keep her hopes for the presidency alive. And as far as I've seen, she continues to pander on nonsense right wing issues using the same calculus. She has a very pleasant speaking voice though.
They are not suckered... they are COMPLICIT.
Hey when your front runners are Fred "I'm not really that committed to the campaign" Thompson and Rudy "You won't believe what was reveled this week" Giuliani you have to come up with something...anything to discredit the other side.
Pure blonde Republican strategery.
"Harpy?" I'd think that would appeal to the Republicans at this point. She's got bigger cajones than anyone I've seen in any Republican debate yet. She doesn't take any crap, and I don't think she's got much to worry about. The Repugs can continue to moan and whine all the way to minority status.
This is the kind of garbage that should put an end to the absurd myth of the so-called liberal media.
But as we learned today in a new Gallup poll, the Democrats actually like the media - at least more so than Republicans:
Democrats And Media: Battered Party Syndrome
Wake up Dems!
Of course Bush saying: "I'm the decider, I'm the one who gets to decide!" wasn't shrill at all. Not in the least bit. *smirk*
Calling Hillary 'shrill' is a stretch.
Calling her 'thin-skinned' is absurd. After all she's been through, she's got a dermis like brontosaurus hide.
As long as we're asking....
Does Mitt still abuse his mutt?
Is McCain suffering some sort of PTSD relapse?
Does Rudy's calendar include any dates besides the 11th of Sept.?
Is Fred Thompson mildly retarded?
You ever get the feeling that "Have More" money has picked the democratic candidate before the republican because they either plan to toss the presidency or run a democrat they think they can beat but won't worry too much about if they don't?
Comparisons to other candidates on this post are totally worthless.
Yes ... she sounds Shrill.. and HOLLOW... and yes... I picture her as a Harpy, I also picture the Bushies as Virgin blood drinking shape shifting reptillians... So calm the fuck down Hil-bots.
And for the first time in a very long time... I must say that the GOP spokesperson wiped the FLOOR with the Dem... As the TRUTH was on her side... And the Dem had nothing.
She is correct on Hillary.. And you guys need to wake up to that FACT of the Matter...
"Fishwife" is a term for an obnoxious, noisy, middle-aged woman that went out of fashion about a century or more ago. I heard my father use it from time to time, but he was a second generation Czech immigrant and born in 1917. What excuse would these people have to even know the term? Unless, of course, they were flipping through their thesauri looking for distinctive tag-words to attach to Hillary, something literate-sounding (even Dickensian) that everyone could remember because no one normal would ever use it in conversation.
It's interesting. I post on a couple of liberal sites and I see alot of people saying they're not going to vote for Hillary. What are you guys going to do if she is the Democratic candidate? Sit it out and wait four years?
every time this mysogynistic crap happens, more women decide they have to vote for her just to stick up for themselves
Fishwife? Shrill? Harpy?
I do not care for Hillary Clinton as a candidate for a variety of reasons. That Harpy RNC puke, though, almost makes me want to vote for her in protest to the growing "framing" of her persona. Was FDR droll? Lincoln sullen? Too bad that neither of them could get elected in today's Madison Avenue political climate, which is, ironically, the one that touts Hillary Clinton. Damn us all if we can't get back to intelligent, respectful debate about the issues of our time, rather than this swill.
rduke @ 16:
I second that.
From a Democrat:
Voting to give the current maladministration license to blow up IRAN (this is how they will construe the resolution) was by far a traitorous and dangerous act. The victory should have been overwhelmingly denied Lieberman.
Clinton ought to not only answer for it, but be rejected as a candidate. She voted for the IRAQ war and now she voted for the IRAN war. She has refused to commit to a full and rapid pullout from IRAQ. So enough!
She cannot chuckle (in her disembodied way) out of this one.
If she's elected, I think we should bring back the pre-World War II Navy office of Commander in Chief, US - CINCUS - an acronym that evokes a sad fate when uttered.
I didn't hear anything "shrill" or "fish-wifey" (whatever that is) in this clip. But I did note Clinton's reference to the questioner being planted there and told what to ask. It's been a common technique from her campaign and many of her supporters on-line to argue that attacks on HRC (including those coming from the left) are part of some scheme of unfair Republican tactics.
Its doubtful in this case; indeed one of the things this MSNBC clip distracts from in its "shrill" emphasis is her very unacceptable response to the question.
Nicole Belle asked:-
No.... not shrill, well actually I have called a few of those douchbag mass murderers "shrill" at least once or twice..
Face the facts that men have different adjectives to describe them, that usually do not fit on woman, and vice versa...
You most likely will not see Hillary called an Asshole.. or a Dickhead.... But Bush is still a shrill bitch...
I didn't hear any shrillness or "evisceration" there. Its a non-story.
That having been said...
Go Edwards !
Bravo, Nicole!
She better shower with bricks every morning to stand up to what the republicans and their attack dogs have in store for her. Too bad, of course, as she's ONE of them. It's all theater.
Hillary means more war.
er... RDuke - Bravo to you, too.
Why don't people like Hillary? Even Dems don't seem excited by her and I don't understand why the MSM is pretty much saying that she's going to be the candidate. Anyone?
And by the way...Go Edwards here , too!!!
It's perfectly normal for a spokeschick of the Crusades Party to use a 13th century term like "fishwife" .
Go Edwards indeed. There has not been one vote cast and ALL of the media are reporting that Hillary is the winner. Actually, I think she is so desperate to win that she will say anything and do anything (vote for war on Iran?). Does that sound familiar? Oh yeah, he's our current president.
The Preznit shrill?? I didn't think he had the know how to be shrill?..But cudos to rduke.....good one.
jim @ 21:
Nice try trolls. The Dems are going to bury your party of phonies, criminals, and hypocrites next November. And you guys need to wake up to the FACT of the Matter.
I'm no fan of HC...but if she gets the nod then I'm supporting her......anyone but another repug.
Use family name recognition, contacts and corporate cash to obtain a springboard office even though completely unqualified for the position. Then use that position as faux credentials combined with family name recognition, contacts and tons more corporate cash to run for the presidency.
Where have I heard this story before?
nonbeliever @ 18:
No... We will just vote for someone else or decline to place a vote for president.
I am also not voting for Obama.. as neither has done nothing to gain my respect.. and DONE EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO LOSE IT...
I also do not feel that it will be much different with either of them...
The only thing that will change is the media will feel it is finally ok to attack the office of the President yet again... While the President -Clinton-or-Obama.. or anyother front runner...
Sets up policies to enable more corporate take over.. Signs more "trade agreements"... Deregulates FCC ownership rules even further... While doing only the most shallow of a whitewash on the Enviroment issues, Health care, etc...
You think either of those two will rescind the Patriot Act 1 or 2?.. You think they will do anything to re-inforce and secure the Constitution?... Think they will do what is right??
I don't... and refuse to go along and vote against my conscious again..
I think those like myself are hoping that the rest of you wake up....I know you try to marginalize us.. brow beat us with this "You are with us or against us" Bullshit...
But you know that there are many of us out here.. and many many more on top of that beneath the visible surface that are going to do exactly what we are going do to...
And you are afraid... Afraid to stand on your own two feet... Afraid to listen to your consciousness...
We are here to pull the teat out of your mouth...
Vote with your consciousness... use the force.
"Fool me once... uh uh uh .. Shame on....uh uh Shame on you... Fool me.. Cant get fooled again"
Wake up to the new paradigm.
No more of the same old shit.... No more.
Yes … she sounds Shrill.. and HOLLOW… and yes… I picture her as a Harpy, I also picture the Bushies as Virgin blood drinking shape shifting reptillians… So calm the fuck down Hil-bots.
And for the first time in a very long time… I must say that the GOP spokesperson wiped the FLOOR with the Dem… As the TRUTH was on her side… And the Dem had nothing.
She is correct on Hillary.. And you guys need to wake up to that FACT of the Matter…
Sorry, chief, I have been listening to the woman speak for fifteen years now. Clinton's voice is, if anything, too bland and her delivery too unemotional for her ever to be a great speaker. I suggest you sit down with some politically neutral friends and listen to Senator Clinton's speeches with them. Try to get them to agree that this woman who dresses and talks like a suburban banker turning down a loan applicant is somehow "shrill" and a "harpy". Have a dictionary or two on hand and compare the definitions to what you see on the video.
Cripes, no wonder foriegners think our political system is a loony bin. We've got June Cleaver running for president talking about tax policy and half the citizenry rails about her as though she were Cruella de Ville screaming for more puppies to skin.
nonbeliever @ 18:
No. I'm thinking of learning some new music...
Oh Canada! My home and native land....
This is a bit off thread, but very timely for today's news on Blackwater sinking deeper into their sewer..
SOMEONE needs to do a post of all the stuff for sale on the BlackwaterUSA.com web site. Like "Hooded Sweatshirts" for youth... Gun holsters... Rambo knives...
Ball caps, and even, get this, for $18 you can buy a toddler's jump-suit complete with logo!
And, yes there is even a black teddy bear for that budding fascist grand-child. Check it out at http://ProShop.BlackwaterUSA.com/
There are even "Larry Craig" type protective gear - Knee Pads, with the Blackwater logo, no doubt!
Get your credit cards ready! Coming soon to a school near you, no doubt!
These are sick, sick puppies! And, they breed among us!
I don't think rduke is a troll bmw528
nonbeliever @ 18:
Good question. It would be very difficult for me to vote for anyone who equivocates about ending the slaughter of innocent people in a criminal war that candidate voted to authorize and continues to support.
Sure ... McCain (My :( senator ) has been described as old with an anger problem - both true. :) The difference is, McCain really is old and he really does get redfaced yelling mad.
A woman - with a high register voice, caucasian and nasal - a woman high talker with a nasal voice accused of being shrill. That is character assassination, not accurate description.
Seriously @ 29:
Its called ..."Rasslin"...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-587751961775361142&q=WWF+Roddy+...
Watch it... Learn it...
We wouldn't want a thin skinned commander in chief now would we?
sulphurdunn @ 42:
I have been picking up the same stuff for weeks... over and over... negative comments on Hillary, and NO POSITIVE comments.
It seems to me, when Iowa starts happening that the 20-something-percent Obama, and the 20-something-percent-Edwards will start migrating from one to the other. This means The Clintons are maxed out in the high 20's.. Look for Edwards to win in Iowa by a slim margin, somewhere around 32-34% then the Obama's will all migrate to him. NOT to The Clintons
If Hillary gets the nomination (first I'll vote against her in the primaries) I'll vote for her because I'd vote for a wet sock before I'd let another Republiscum destroy the planet and run our country into the ground.
I have to wonder about the most shrill critics of the Democratic party if they ever bother to vote in the primaries so they can have a voice in choosing the nominee? I'll bet not. If all the Greens and Nader supporters bothered to vote in Democratic primaries as a block, they could turn the party around.. I guess that's too practical though for the whiners.
I think we should get used to the notion that she just might get the nomination...I'd like to see Edwards and Kusunich and Richardson get a lot more vocal....
She came off as shrill and fishwife-y and thin-skinned. And when we’re looking to a Commander in Chief, to elect someone as Commander in Chief, I don’t think that’s a persona that you want to emit.
Making this statement takes a real commitment to denial of reality, considering George W. Bush is the living embodiment of pissy.
uh...there are plenty of phonies in the Dem party. We all thought the last bunch we voted for in 06 would bury the Repubs and we see how that worked out.
Fact of the matter, indeed.
I heard the guy that asked her the question on the Ed Schultz show and he was not a plant. He wanted to know why he should support her because of the vote. She did imply that someone else told him to ask the question and was a plant. The man was sincere and she should of just answered his question. Again the media failed to tell the whole story.
I hate to say it, but I think C&L is totally off the wall on this one. MSNBC does not come off in the clip going out of its way to disparage Hillary. You had a Democratic spokesman and a Republican spokesman and if you count the amount of time given to either it's the same. They both made their point and both, in my opinion, came off sounding like jerks. The Repugnant is obvious, but why is a Hillary supporter trying to make it sound like she's no different from any other candidate. If he was smart he'd be making out how different she is and that's why you would for her. Why else vote for her if she's just like anyone else. You should fragging the Democrat here, not MSNBC.
bmw 528 @ 34:
Hypocrisy is the act of condemning or calling for the condemnation of another person when the critic is guilty of the act for which he demands that the accused be condemned. Though hypocrisy is frequently invoked as an accusation in debates, a few theorists have studied the utility of hypocrisy, and in some cases have suggested that the conflicts manifested as hypocrisy are a necessary or even beneficial part of human behavior and society.
Knowing is half the battle...
Wrasslin people... it is Wrasslin... Except the outcome is real.... and it actually impacts our lives.
The Unprofessional Nature Of MSM
It appears like quality news commentary went down a black hole. We cannot trust what is supposed to be cut and dry information or fact. We can thank the success of Fox news for this problem of "telling like you want it" instead of "telling like it is."
We live in a time where the strongest facts are debatable. Every since it became popular and profitable to lean to the right, the media has used debate to make legitimate many things that would not see the light of day otherwise. The wiretapping of American phones,for example, would not of scene the debate formate it got if the tone for excepting the act would of reached an outrage level. Today, with this administration, debating illegal actions is the number one defense for why they are still unchallenged. It is almost like the American people have been fooled to a unprecedented degree .
As long as the Republicans have these Fox like cable news organizations running the necessary propaganda to deliver the split in the issue, we will take a side;hence, the debate will lead the issue, not the action that should be taken when a law is broken.
Not to let the quality of journalism off the hook. The likes of Bill O'Reilly,Glen Beck, Lou Dobbs, and Nancy Gracy are supposed to be best the entertainment field has to offer. The problem with them is some issues deserve mature and complex thought, not the usual hate filled propaganda we get from the so called best the the cable networks has to offer. The media has truly have taken a backward turn for the worst when Britney Spears gets all day coverage instead of the covering how the senate or congress is ending this war. I truly don't need to hear the toe tapping of Senator Craig all day long. We need to toe tap are asses out of Iraq. That I would love to hear.
Joseph
I don't really like Hillary that much,but give me a break, fishwifery type shrill voice. How about bullshittery type commentary from bimbettes who want Hillary to take lessons from Condi of the million dollars shoes and space between the teeth. A shrill voice is much better in a president than the empty skull in the White House now. This babe probably thinks that it's cute when the lovebirds Giuliani's have to "talk" during his speeches and McCain sings "Bomb iran". How precious!
Kucinich 08
REAL PROGRESS...REAL CHANGE... REAL HUMAN BEING.
Hot Wife...
:p
I have NO DOUBT that Hillary will deliver a SPECTACULAR acceptance speech at the Democratic Party's convention next summer...
I also have no doubt that the Republicans will raise the security threat to "FLAMING NUKULAR RED-ORANGE" on the day after (or maybe the day BEFORE...)
And then she will get elected IN SPITE of the Bushies and whoever it is that the Repugnant Party will throw up against her.
Snowball @ 47:
Are you saying Nader and Green party supporters are just lazy whiners? Have you ever met a Green party activist? Don't tell me, you heard from Bill O'Reilly that they're just a bunch of "stoned slackers" who should be "more practical."
She's not exciting enough to be shrill. Wish we could swap her brain out and replace it with Dennis Kucinich's. I think he's game for that. Plus we get the amusement of sticking Hillary Clinton in Dennis Kucinich's body, ultimately leading to "Dennis Kucinich" running down the middle of the street INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS-style screaming "You don't understand, I'M HILLARY CLINTON! I'M HILLARY CLINTON!!!" Now that would be shrill. Meanwhile, the real Kucinich takes one for the great big fucking awesome team known as The United States Of America and pretends to be Bill Clinton's wife for... the greater good. A truer patriot never lived. Yep. I like this plan.
i don't have any problem with it. it reveals them for the pigs that they are.
with HC in the limelight...it can only get worse.....this election cycle will undoubtly be the ugliest election in history..........prepare yourselves..this is just the beginning.
MSM..is the new daytime soap operas.....
Dubya/Cheney/Rove are all rooting for a Hillary win. That alone should tell you something.
Bush, BBC Reporter Have Testy Exchange
All three networks last night ran this somewhat testy exchange between President Bush and a BBC reporter. It took place during the President's press conference with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. BBC's Nick Robinson: "You said that the increase in attacks is 'unsettling.' That will convince many people that you're still in denial about how bad things are in Iraq and question your sincerity about changing course." Bush: "It's bad in Iraq. That help?" Bush's comment got some print media coverage as well: The AP puts Bush's "it's bad in Iraq" line in the lead sentence of a story appearing in over 100 newspapers or on their web sites, and the New York Daily News headlines a report "Bush: 'It's Bad In Iraq.'"
From December 8 2006:
Bush, BBC Reporter Have Testy Exchange
All three networks last night ran this somewhat testy exchange between President Bush and a BBC reporter. It took place during the President's press conference with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. BBC's Nick Robinson: "You said that the increase in attacks is 'unsettling.' That will convince many people that you're still in denial about how bad things are in Iraq and question your sincerity about changing course." Bush: "It's bad in Iraq. That help?" Bush's comment got some print media coverage as well: The AP puts Bush's "it's bad in Iraq" line in the lead sentence of a story appearing in over 100 newspapers or on their web sites, and the New York Daily News headlines a report "Bush: 'It's Bad In Iraq.'"
Cowboy Bob in Austin @ 57:
"Hillary can't win" will dominate the Dems voters thinking in Iowa just before they pull the lever. The reason she can't win, is she can't hold up once the negative attack ads - NAAs - start. The NAAs will start only when the Repugnicans believe she is the winner. Edwards will carry Iowa because the NAAs will start from Obama and Edwards, but only when it gets close enough in time so she cannot defend herself....
1 - Her Iraq vote;
2 - Her Iran vote;
3 - Her inaction on healthcare in her 8 year career as a Senator... She 'blows with the wind' in her positions and the ads will start showing the two sides of her face in 30 second spots. But, it is too early for Edwards and Obama to spend that kind of money.
She is doing pathetic in handling repeated questions about her Iran vote in town hall type meetings. People are starting to wonder "where's the beef."
Sorry fiver, your dodging the question. I never said the were lazy (except maybe intellectually) I said they were being impractical. Why not get out and vote for Kucinich before you ditch the baby with the bathwater? Your efforts would be better spent turning the Democratic party to the left. It worked for the far right with the Republicans, why not for the left with the Democrats? Anyway, until you can change the Constitution, third parties can only act as spoilers. Simple majority rules in both the House and Senate. And, unless you live in a state like Vermont, you're only throwing your vote away and helping the Republicans win. You think Al Gore would have unsigned Kyoto and invaded Iraq? If you want more of the same, continue on your path.
Puesto @ 66:
I thought she didn't vote at all on the Iran issue...along with Obama.....I think Biden and Dodd were the only ones to vote on that(they both voted nay)....every one else failed to vote.
so this blonde bimbette is clearly very comfortable living, perhaps forever, in a world where men control everything. i don't imagine any electable Republican women will be running for prez any time soon, not with what the republican party under bush's stewardship has done to this country. she must be the tammy wynette baking cookies at home sort. at least hillary is a separate person and thinks for herself.
IB222 @ 52:
Uh, no. The question asked of Hillary was a legitimate one, and one that should be examined vis a vis ALL the candidates. However, the interest of MSNBC was not on the question nor the substance of the discussion. The question was whether this made Hillary a harpy. And I'm not exaggerating to say they did the story THREE TIMES in ONE HOUR. It's all in the framing, IB222. They are furthering the Republican narrative of Hillary being a shrewish harridan. And they do it in that clever Fox News style: Is Hillary Shrill? You decide.
I WISH the media had looked more closely at the Lieberman Kyl vote and whether that opens up an avenue for the Bush administration to claim they have Senate approval to act aggressively against Iran. Instead, they're interested in perpetuating fairly misogynistic themes.
Having said that, if a Green or a Socialist runs against Evan Bayh in Indiana, I might just vote for them just to send a message.
rduke @ 53:
I second that. As Clinton's charm, vibe and mojo is fading, the fraud, the real truth that makes so many progressives still so confused, and most importantly, Hilary's hypocrisy and a totally sell out nature, will be all the more apparent. A matter of months now and thank God for that.
Nicole, it would be interesting to hear or see the whole exchange between Hillary and the questioner.
I guess Obama took the right path.
He didn't vote at all on the Lieberman-Kyl Amendment.
He says (his spokesman says) that he would have voted against it if he had voted.
But he didn't vote - so no one can ask him anything.
Nuts to them all.
Puesto @ 66:
Indeed,... Even though I can see the established powers that be 'assisting' her ascendancy to take a turn on the Holy throne of the empire of America to do their bidding ... I cannot see how any of my fellow proles seriously falls for her mask.
Well, we can always vote for Ron Paul.
(snort chortle snort)
Heaven forbid the right wing Corporate Media should focus on issues of substance instead of imaginary PR constructed personal qualities or character traits of candidates. If they allowed that kind of analysis, we might get someone elected who doesn't wholeheartedly support the elite consensus.
How long's it gonna take? muddy, you know what I'm talkin' about.
there was an allusion to hillary and her support of lieberman and the other republican and the amendment they introduced. i don't know much, in truth, about the amendment, but i do know this any dem candidate who throws his/her hat in the ring alongside lieberman has lost my vote. i was watching the candidates on c span and hillary says the first order of business is to stop the war in iraq. sorry, but that's a close second. in all fairness, i didn't hear any of the other candidates say this either, but then we're talking about hillary now. the first order of business is to impeach and convict. that's number one. i must admit that i leaned a little in hillary's direction when i saw mcgovern give her such a glowing recommendation...but nah. kucinich still.
Andy K @ 77:
goin fishin?
So Snowball,
Tell us, practically speaking, how do the vast majority of us who don't live in Iowa, New Hampshire, or the handful of other states where the nominee will be chosen, "go out and vote for Kucinich"?
Tell us, practically speaking, just how this former director of WalMart (who is receiving more corporate cash than any Republican) would change anything.
Finally, for the "intellectually lazy," please tell us which part of the Constitution mandates, or even refers to, a two party system so that we can change it.
If the present "Democratic" Congress has taught us anything, it is that Democrats such as HRC have no problem continuing the corporatist, warmongering path set by Bush. The only difference is that they will pay just enough lip service to democratic ideals to appease the fools who believe they are being "practical."
Fishin'? Uhm, let's call it an experiment. I wanna see how long it takes one of 'em to see this on Google.
Juvenile? Admittedly...
hey you never know.....but I suspect it wont take long...
In the primaries, vote your heart and your ideology, not for who you think is most likely to win. In the general election, do everything you can to prevent a total Fascist takeover of the three branches of government. Hillary is at worst, a moderate right winger. Even that is better than total Fascism.
Ron @ 74:
I agree. I tried to find a copy of it, but was unable to.
I live in the very red state of Indiana. Before I voted for Bill Clinton in the general election, I voted for Bill Bradley in the primaries. I suspect Kucinich will still be on the ticket when I get to vote. He'll probably still be there in your state as well. I doubt he'll just give up if he loses New Hampshire or Iowa. The Corporate Media wants you to think it's all over after that, it isn't. He's there to change the substance of the debate and he'll stay in to the end. You'll be able to send a strong message by voting for him.
fiver-
Finally, for the “intellectually lazy,” please tell us which part of the Constitution mandates, or even refers to, a two party system so that we can change it.
It doesn't come right out and say it, but look at how legislation needs a majority- not a plurality- to pass legislation, or how a majority is required in the Electoral College to elect a President( and, iirc, if the EC doesn't elect a President, the responsibility falls on Congress- where a majority is again required).
Now, of course, coalitions can be built in Congress includin' a third party. And that's happenin' now with Bernie Sanders and the Dems.
I'm sorry -- I must be ignorant. But why are political hacks allowed on these goofy TV shows? Entertainment? Sport?
They sure aren't there for real NEWS.
I'm not even sure CANDIDATES should be on these tv shows.
I know! How about this! Journalism! Cover the campaigns, without the goofy hair, voice, etc. sh*t.
Oh yeah -- this is America, where TV is at about 2nd grade level.
I don't care whether Clinton is shrill or fishwifey when it comes to voting for her. She has been dead wrong on Iraq and is now dead wrong on Iran. I dislike her easy conscience on who gives her money, who she has leading her team (Mark Penn who ties her to Blackwater and union busting), and the people who support her (Sandy Berger). If she becomes president, she will shut down any access to the papers of her husband and even Bush's indefinitely, and she has been utterly silent on how she would restore the loss of constitional rights. I am sick and tired, however, of how she is able to play the victim card over and over regarding her gender while getting a pass or distraction on issues and her campaigning. The MSM has repeatedly portrayed her as invincible and inevitable. So who are you kidding?
Andy K..did HC vote on the Lieberman/Kyl reso?I thought she didn't show up for the vote along with Obama....
"legislation" followed by "legislation"....when I'm writin' this poorly it means I need to sleep.
Sorry, muddy, dunno. I'd think it woulda set off sirens in my apartment if it happened, though.
mudshark @ 91:
I'm not Andy, but I don't think he'll mind if I tell you that Clinton DID vote for Lieberman/Kyl. Dodd did not (can't remember about Biden) and Obama was in NH preparing for the debate and missed the vote.
However the pushback against HRC was pretty significant so the following week she was the first to co-sponsor Webb's bill saying that Bush had to come to Congress for permission to attack Iran, which he was legally bound to do anyway, but I guess that makes the Senate sound like they're getting tough.
I could of sworn that she missed that vote........it was righ before the debate that timmeh moderated...and they discussed it.Dodd and Biden were the only ones to vote on it(nay)
Go ahead Nicole, speak fer me.
I usually assume, these days, that HRC is up to no good. But I'm a Yellow Dog Democrat, so if she gets the nod at the convention I'll vote fer her anyway. But right now I'm all about Denny K!
Nicole Belle @ 94:
Thanks Nicole.......me thinks she just put another nail in her coffin.
Remember, there will be another Supreme Court appointment during the next Presidency as John Paul Stevens and maybe Ginsburg retire. Does anyone want to risk having a Republican appointing the next justice? I don't, the effects of that will last much longer than any Presidency. Think about it. Corporations will become even more super citizens than they are now, the separation of Church and State will forever wither, there will never be any controls over the influence of money on elections, the ability of the government to regulate corporations in the interest of the environment will be forever gone, it goes on and on.
Well, it's been about 1/2 hour and none of 'em have shown up.
Hey, Nicole, how about an open thread titled "Ron Paul"- nothin' but a title, no links or thoughts. Just fer shits & giggles. 'Cause I really miss LaRouchites....ur...Paulists. ;)
gn all
I'm with muddy. Not literally, course...GNA!
I wouldn't compare Ron Paul supporters to LaRouche (sp?) supporters. But I would say that they are those Republicans who buy into the myth that Conservatism is about small government and not rampant authoritarianism and oligarchy. They're delusional of course, but not malicious racists.
Snowball @ 98,
I agree with pretty much everything you say. I guess the only significant difference is that I believe Hillary is a Republican. Perhaps her judicial choice might be better on Establishment Clause issues, but, on corporate control of the nation, I believe she'll go to the right - to the far right. I don't believe she'd have the support of Rupert Murdoch and NewsCorp fundraisers otherwise.
Ron Paul.. The only human on earth who cares about the constitution..
Or so they always say on the Youtube's...
Cheri Jacobus, Republican strategist and repub scumbag,
took her lines right out of the "Attack Hillary Play Book"
With attack scum like this, no matter which side of an issue Hillary
takes these slime bags have an attack ready.
They are slime shills!
jim @ 73:
I think Hillary would make a great president. She is d@mn smart, she's obviously very political, she would have Bill at her side and she would be able to build an amazing team. I don't agree with her on a lot of stuff but, if we get another Clinton presidency (who I also didn't always agree with but I was generally satisfied --- and I did not like him for his charm, vibe and mojo...gimme a break. People say Bush is charming. Clinton is smart.) I think it would be incredible. That said, I prefer Edwards and I will vote for him in the primary.
One reason Edwards is I think America would have an easier time voting for a white male than they would for a woman --- we're just not that advanced. In America, women are supposed to be sexy or motherly. I'm also scared the Republicans are pushing her forward because they think they will be able to beat her (years ago, I was talking to my friend's father-in-law who proudly told me he and his Republican friends gave some pretty substantial money to Dean's campaign because they knew, if he was the candidate, they would be able to beat him.)
Another reason I want Edwards is, I don't want to have to listen to people whine about Hillary anymore. It's absolutely tiring....
fiver, I understand and am sympathetic to where your are coming from, but I don't think Hillary is a rabid right wing corporatist ideologue or that she would appoint one to the court. We might not agree with her brand of Liberalism (a capitalist ideology that perpetuates capitalism through moderating its effects) but it's better than rabid right ideology.
I'm not a Hillary supporter, but any shortcomings she might have would be the best that Bush has to offer, on a good day.
The Media is ramming Hillary down our throats! I wish C&A would just cut through the crap and tell it like it is when it comes to this snow job of screwing the primary process by the
the money interests who want to put a corporatist like Hillary in power.
I could just puke! Suckers!
Jill Bryant @ 106:
Mission accomplished. ;)
The Republican demonstrates what they do best: PROJECTION.
This "pundit" appears "shrill" and "fish-wifey" herself so he projects it
onto Hillary. Hillary was too quick in her response for this very slow person.
Snowball @ 107:
But doesn't that brand of Liberalism sound a lot like compassionate conservatism?
The fuck does "fishwife-y" mean???
"...and kudos to Hillary for not relying on pre-approved audiences and questions like our current president."
Kudos my ass. How far is the bar going to be lowered? Just because bush *needs* plants in order to be out in public without a script doesn't mean Clinton (or any politician) should get "kudos" just for facing the populace. The bigger question is: why was she caught so off-guard that she had to fall back on calling this guy a plant in the first place, when all he (and many of us) wanted was a valid explanation for her vote. Did she really think no one would call her on it?
The media is eager to show Mrs. Clinton is unlikeable, but the fact of the matter is: she *is* unlikeable. And sure as God made little green apples (or...nevermind, you get the idea), she's the greatest gift imaginable to Giuliani and the 'pubs. As Gore said, this isn't about electing the best person or debating the issues; it's about creating the best media circus, the best "horse race" to keep us all tuned to our teevees. It's becoming an election based not on who we most support, but who we least hate.
I think Hillary handled herself fine. This is double-standard pure and simple. If any other candidate had fielded this question as firmly and articulately as Hillary they would have been called strong.
gene214 @ 113:
Old fashioned and behind the times. It is a pretty much useless remark when attempting to disparage a female particularly when it comes from the idiot that said it. And I'm not even a fan of Hillary. Go Kucinich.
RobertD @ 114:
Then the media's efforts have worked on you.
However, as the LA Times reported today, as people are being re-introduced to the actual woman and not the ballbusting cartoon that you seem to have bought into, she is winning people over.
I seem to be in the minority of leftists who see Hillary as a real asset to our side. Strong, smart, and able to play the game as good as the boys in the service of a Democratic agenda.
I hate to say it, but I think the majority of the dislike for Hill is some primal fear of a woman in the most powerful position in the world.
Heyyyy! It's my old pal David Goodfriend. :)
/known each other since we were tots
rduke @ 16:
Thank God (or whoever) I thought i was going to have to go thru the whole list of comments to find a rational thought. The Dem spokesperson tried desperately to make it about anything but the vote itself. He then LIED and claimed she is the same on the issue as Dodd (voted no) Obama (didn't vote) and Edwards (isn't in the senate, criticized the vote loudly). Then you have the gall to defend him as he plays the "woman" card. I'm a democrat but i recognize an ass wupping when i see one... But this blog is bought and paid for so where's the surprise?
Tim @ 117:
My problem with Hillary is the fact that just last Dec at a public forum she dissed a guy by telling him to "vote for someone else if you don't like it", meaning her intention to keep troops fighting and dying in Iraq and funding the war to the nines.
Just 9 months later in Sept of this year she's packaged in "pink" sounding like a dove. l80-degree turn from what I heard with my own ears.
She won't address outsourcing of jobs and clams up tight as a drum when the issue of NAFTA
is raised.
Her health care plan is a corporate deal and suspect many will still be without healthcare when we get a look at "conditions" that go with it.
It's not because she's a woman. It's because she's a nasty avoidant liar.
Tim @ 117:
wow yer gullible! You realize the LA times is a Neocon rag right? Why would the Right want Hillary to win the nomination? shes basically a republican, and shes easily destroyed. The media has been largely propping up her campaign. If you think the media is out to destroy her now, you are seriously deluded. Hillary has already received the "inevitability" nod from most major news outlets. Get a grip on reality, we really don't have much time left.
I don't need to see the MSM at work to know I don't like Hillary and her seeming inability to answer reasonable questions based on her political standing. Her lame evasive answers on nuclear energy ("I'm agnostic.") and support of Bush via the Lieberman resolution should show where she really stands -- nowhere. The fact she's threatened by an obvious question -- so what if she's been asked about it before. That means the issue is important! Doesn't she read the blogs?
And her answer was so defensive she lost a voter.
Tim @ 117:
First, while some undoubtedly fear a woman in power, there are many women I would not only vote for, but would actively campaign for. Hillary Clinton is not one of them.
Second, simply because I believe she is unlikeable doesn't mean the media has forced that opinion upon me. I can read as well as you can, I can weed through bullshit when I see it, and I feel like I'm pretty well informed. As with yours, my opinion is my own, and I've come by it with not a small amount of time and effort. In my discussions with others, who are, like myself, left-leaning voters, both men and women, I find there is a great deal of at least distrust of Clinton, and at most dislike. Maybe they're watching too much MSNBC, I don't know, but that's what I hear when I talk to them.
Finally, I don't need to be "reintroduced" to Sen. Clinton, as though I'm buying detergent, by the very media you say has tricked me into falling for a "ballbusting cartoon" in the first place. I look at her voting record, (the vote at the heart of this thread is an example), where she stands on issues like NAFTA, her tendency to vote one way, then try to "clarify" it by saying it meant something else, and who she takes her money from.
Simply put, I'm not convinced she's the best candidate for the office. There are women--and men--whose election I might fear more, but I honestly believe four to eight more years of the "Faux News vs. the Clintons" show is not in our country's best interest. Playing "the game as good as the boys" is no ringing endorsement for me in this case, since everyone on the playing field is on Rupert Murdoch's payroll.
Look, they did it to Dean, right? It doesn't matter where you are in the party, whether you want Hillary or not. This kind of manipulated crap can't be what decides the race. Can't be.
Maybe I am coming from a different planet, but I was listening, waiting to hear the shrill
moment, and it never came for me. I have heard male candidates coming across as irritable and mean-spirited, harsh, and unintelligent, but making an issue about this is bizarre and suspicious.
crazylove @ 120:
I should have just echoed your post. ; )
Here's link for TDS: Hillary's Laugh Track never shown by C&L
Premiered on TDS Tuesday 9/25
http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.jhtml?ml_video=103274&ml_...
Hillary Clinton manages to emit CREEPY delayed laughter on ALL FIVE SUNDAY morning shows""" just like W - or, worse..
Is ANYBODY watching these losers ?? ANYBODY ??!! Just an excuse to refocus C&L'ers from Hillary, the disaster.. Sadly, again, without addressing the REAL Hillary issues ....
susan g @ 19:
Speak for yourself - her arroganvce has no limits, as her lack of substance. She is BOOOSH to the power of 10. She IS a FISHWIFE, a DISGRACE to all the professional women who achieved what they did, without riding on their men's coattails, w/Monica under his desk. Name just ONE achievement of hers !! Experience - as a first lady, changing her 'do' every week ??!! or, from Rosen&Rosen and Whitewater, with thousands who lost their homes ? Blackwater took more lives, but we/taxpayers still didn't pay off the WWater high-water-theft in hundreds of MLN $$$! Just
about every major policy decision she's made has been a failure and a disaster!!!
[Deleted. Way way way way way too long. And annoyingly bolded-Sitemonitor]
Not gullible. I've met the woman. She's nothing like the right or the left has painted her. She's not perfect, but she's the smartest of the bunch (either bunch) and I've always voted the smartest and have never regretted it.
What is so ironic is that the Hill-haters sound so much like the Gore-haters of 2000 who voted for Nader based on the brilliant "there is no difference" argument. How'd that go? Oh, yeah. It fucked us for 8 years.
We elect politicians, not saviors or saints. They govern a diverse electorate and do not always get to say exactly what they feel (the ones that get elected, anyway).
But this is what primaries are for, so slam away at her or me or whomever.
But if she wins the Primary (and it looks very possible she will), I hope to God you guys leave your purity test at home. The Clintons are SO much better than anything the Republicans have to offer. We need some brain power back in the White House.
kerry would have just tasered the dude...
CappuccettoRosso @ 127:
Sir, ask your doctor if Paxil is right for you....
Nicole, I found a link to the audio. Sound quality is poor but I think you will agree that it is not as bad as the MSNBC broadcast portrayed it.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/08/clinton.iran/#cnnSTCVideo
Tim @ 115:
She did what?
John McCain and Mitt Romney have the same exact responses when it comes to Medical Marijuana that she had with this guys question...
Laugh, Roll eyes, Attack the questioner... Call him/her a plant.. then ignore the question or deny its point.
Koool Aid... Its not just for republicans anymore... OH YEAH!
RobertD @ 123:
CappuccettoRosso @ 127:
I second that. Well said. That quite frankly sums it up.
rduke @ 132:
I think it was a good question. I think it was a good response. The rest is hype and people are reading into it what they want to.
Soooo... regarding the Iran vote, the other two major candidates either pussed out (Obama) or had the safety of not being in the Senate (Edwards). But when Edwards was in the Senate and planning to run for the Presidency he voted for the Iraq authorization. Oh, but he apologized! Give me a break.
Unless you are an idealistic supporter of Kucinich or Gravel, your candidate is also tainted and a liar. Just like all politicians are liars.
So what's the diff? She's female.
jim @ 135:
If summing it up means long rambling incoherent racist "off the meds" babble, then yes, I suppose it does.
Hil is a Shill = Shilary.
I don't care WHAT the pubs say about her, she's a false flag ops all unto herself and us!!!
The more bad press she gets the better . . . and I don't care if gender DOES come into it . . she's NOT my 'girl!' . . . we don't want to elect another warmongering member of the 1% Elitist to further the loss of our rights and the middle class . . .
Tim @ 136:
Apparently, Obama was in New Hampshire.
Ron @ 139:
How convenient for him. He seems to avoid anything terribly confrontational. He's not ready. Neither is Edwards.
Tim @ 140:
I'm sorry, but if he had an engagement planned in New Hampshire for his campaign, he probably thought that none of his other members of the senate would even think about voting for the nonbinding bill.
Kucinich 08
Join the consciousness...
Ron @ 141:
As a matter of fact, I don't know why anyone would vote for a Lieberman bill.
Tim @ 131:
You must be from Dr Frist's office, diagnosing by ...crystal ball .. ??
What eaxactly are your credentials ? Which wonderful crystal ball are you using that your diagnosis is so accurate ? Tell us ALL, phhhlease !!
Since you so proudly promote Paxil, you must be a user, congratulations that you think it works for you.
Unfortunately, you only think so. That would explain your message indicating you didn't bother to read what I say. Enjoy your happry Paxil hour, or, happy Prozac time, or whatever excites you as a Pill of the Week..
Don't try to play the GENDER card - had you bothered to read my message you would know I am a professional WOMAN.
You've done your duty for today, go and collect your check from Hillary's campaign.
Incidently, Soviets treated opponents as mentally ill - you come from a solid Soviet core.. More Paxil for you !
Ron @ 141:
Are you kidding? He's running for president! They think about everything and are briefed about everything. His non-vote was as calculated as Hillary's vote.
I have to admit, and it will probably just draw more C&L snark, that I like the fact that Hillary does not deny or hide the fact that she is a politician and that she is hired to represent and play the game the best she can for her issues.
Our anti-politician gene in this country is probably as strong (and as irrational) as our anti-tax gene, but the bottom line is that we are a schizophrenic country and anyone running for the top office will not get there being 100% honest. To some degree, they tell us what we want to hear, even though they know things that many of us would throw them out of office for being honest about.
Remember when Carter talked about our national malaise? There was one! You just don't say it. Do you admit that Americans can be lazy, entitled and shiftless? No, we are all hard-working and earnest!
Even the purist of candidates, like Kucinich or Huckabee, must lie and gladhand to get supporters and votes.
In a wierd way (putting on my anti-flame retardant) Hillary is the most honest of them all. She will tell you she is a politician, that she plays the game, and she takes money from lobbyists who support her issues.
They all do. She just has the balls to say it while Obama keeps humming kumbaya and Edwards whispers sweet nothings into the ears of the liberal base.
Tim @ 145:
Whatever.
Tim, clearly your memory is short re what happened in 2000. The election was stolen.
Here's my theory (for everyone else):
In August Rove says Hillary has a "fatal flaw".
~ the perceived "fatal flaw" is that she is unlikeable.
So Murdoch with his money contributions to Hillary,the MSM promote her as "The Phenomenon" on the cover of Newsweek when her "popularity" was 16%.
~ If Hillary is Unlikeable (and a woman) she'll be easy to beat with a piece of shit slime repug.
~ Diss dems closest to the hearts and minds of the american public like Kucinich, Edwards, Biden, Gravel as unelectable .
~ Seep these thoughts into the minds of the public that SHE WILL WIN THE NOMINATION early and repeatedly and voila`! The repugs have it their way for another 8 years, and an election that is also easy to steal.
~ People who don't know any better will buy it and vote for her.
~ One collective mindfuck pulled off.
What Hillary doesn't realize is that she's about to get fucked front and rear.
fiver @ 111:
I Would rather have Edwards myself but not enough people are BITCHING about Hillary and now corrupt shes is. Get it doink?
crazylove @ 147:
You put it in words I wouldn't have thought of.
So, let me be clear ... the Right has called Hillary a liar, unlikeable, and unelectable for 20 years now.
C&L posters call Hillary a liar, unlikeable and unelectable.
Rove laughs somewhere in his dark lair.
Seriously, though ... I don't know what Rove thinks and don't care. He is an abysmal failure in terms of what he did for Bush and the Republican party. He was doing short-term planning and fucked the party for the mid to long term. We should all thank him, if it weren't for the path of destruction he left behind him.
Look, I will vote for whoever the Dems decide is the nominee. I truly like them all.
But, I think it is unrealistic to think that Edwards or Obama are not politicians, are not liars, and will not be smeared nine ways til Sunday by the Republicans.
I just don't see Edwards or Obama being nearly as thick skinned as is going to be required for the bloodbath in 2008.
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