October 11, 2007 04:04 PM
The Daily Show: On the Armenian Genocide
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t Heather)
Jon Stewart and the gang look at this week's refusal by President Bush to sign a non-binding resolution condemning the Turks for the Armenian genocide during World War I, ostensibly to not insult a key ally in the Middle East.
MANDVI: Jon, I think the message here is clear: you help us here on the War on Terror, we'll see what we can do on your past.
STEWART: So do countries go for this, Aasif?
MANDVI: Yeah, they do. It's not a bad deal, actually. When Spain joined the coalition, they were able to get their Inquisition downgraded to a casual Q&A.
Fo' Shame
Why are we talking about a genocide from 1915 with Turkey and Armenia? We are already at odds with Turkey over the Kurds in Iraq. Who has something to gain by an altercation with us and Turkey? Hint: someone that can make a lot of money when the cost of fueling our military goes up because Turkey won't let us use them as a launching pad. BTW: Turkey already recalled their ambassador over this.
I'm all for officially recognizing the Armenian genocide. however, i think it's kinda risky to be doing this at the same time Turkey is a breath away from invading the Kurds and making the conflict even more devestating. The way bush put the resolution was a terribly brain dead as usual. However, I think Rice made it clear that this is just bad timing on congresses part (sorta like putting the feather on the stack of furniture in the cartoons). Listening to Tom Hartman, someone called in suggesting that it was possible that congress is doing this as a backdoor method to end the war. Thoughts?
Ted @ 2:
Who might that "someone" be?
Why the hell are the idiots in Congress doing this now? Can't they find some other meaningless thing to do that doesn't piss off another country, maybe like a vote on who should win American Idol or who makes the best chocolate ice cream?
More and more it seems like the foremost quality found in our elected officials is mental illness.
Hah-hah-hah-hah! You know ... I *AM* in the pocket of big children! I usually catch Jon, but when I don't--thanks, C&L!
Jeff @ 4:
Only one guess on the answer to this question.
OT, when will Jon crank up some humor about the U.S.'s ongoing genocide in Iraq one wonders? Or the Iraqi refugee problem....or the destruction being visited by 'our boys over there' on the Iraqi environment?
Inquiring minds wanna know.
HA!
We now have the answer to when Congress will step up and take action on the ongoing death and chaos in Iraq!
(About 90 years from now...)
Man am I glad I'm not the only one who doesn't understand why congress is doing this at this time. To me it looks like kicking a sleeping guard dog. Why do it? You might not get attacked but then on the other hand the odds aren't in your favor.
how is this any different from denying the holocaust??
sam @ 10:
It's not.
this was one of the funniest TDS clips i've seen in a while...
I lost it at 'halfacost'
I'm a democrat, but also cannot see the reason for addressing this at this particular time. It was over 90 years ago! Why is it suddenly so important when we need Turkey as an ally. Let's face it, Bush has done enough to lose us other allies. We don't need congress to step in and lose some more. I'm sorry, but I can't go along with Jon Stewart on this one. Our congress should be doing things that are more important TODAY, and address hundred year old issues at less volatile moments.
miss_kitty @ 11:
Either case takes a special kind of fascist thinker.
BaScOmBe @ 14:
Psssst! Doan look now but we got lots and lost o' dose.
Stopping short of condemning the Turks for their brutal treatment of the Armenians is not the same as denying that these genocidal policies were took place.
It's unseemly of crooksandliars readers to make that connection. Save the charge of "fascist" for when it's legitimate.
I don't think it's fair to as why do this now. It's enough that Armenian Americans are sufficiently bothered by Turkey's refusal to acknowledge what they did, that it's important to them now. To me the question is Turkey, really, what's the problem with admitting it was a genocide? It's not like Japan went under when it admitted the horrendous things they did to the Korean, Chinese, and Japanese "comfort women" from WWII.
www.theskinofmyteeth.com
David B.
Ur engish iz reel gud.
This was good! to ask Congress to actually effect any change in politics or effect people and their lives is undemocratic. I think he's got it!
Without admitting their role in the Armenian genocide, Turkey will never get into the EU.
Bush is probably making it worse for Turkey by simply making a statement. I guess he thinks that his war is more important than Turkey's economy...
BaScOmBe @ 14:
Genocide: "When it's in our interest we condemn it (re: Ahmadinejad) when it's bad for business we condone it (Re: Turkey)."
miss_kitty @ 11:
Not passing a Congressional resolution is the same as DENYING THE HOLOCAUST?
Not on my planet.
Gene @ 22:
Well here on planet Earth, it is.
pissed off patricia @ 9:
This baffles me as well. What's there to gain from pissing off Turkey?
I really liked how Jon flipped the script at the end when he questioned whether Congress demonstrated such concerns over the Native American genocide or American Slavery. How arrogant to believe that we can condemn the atrocities of another country's past without confronting our own in the same manner.
Then to consider that Pelosi demonstrates backbone in bringing this matter to a vote in the house against the wishes of the White House, but not impeachment nearly makes my head explode. She will stand and fight for semantics (however noble this may be), but to hell with the constitution. This b$tch is becoming more aggravating by the day.
ALSO! We voted the Dems into Congress to END war not start another one for f&ck's sake!
Lynnianaa @ 24:
A smidget of our morality back?
jkb @ 25:
It is always funny in a sad way to see Nader vindicated 7 yrs after being dragged through the mud... poor crazy bastard.
great, now were going to get a whole generation of Half-a-cost deniers saying "The Half-a-Cost was a gimmick created by the Jews to get special pricing at swap-meets"
The trouble with the resolution is that it is another of those gutless nonbinding resolutions that congress has been passing off as legitimate legislation. And it was simply to say that the genocide of the Armenians was genocide of Armenians. The only people on earth that don’t think that the Turks murdered Armenians for being Armenians are the Turks.
I could drive an ice pick through my ear sometimes.
This is not one of those times luckily.
Dr. Who @ 27:
But will anyone notice? (Not that he is a poor, crazy bastard, that's obvious, but that he has been vindicated)
Was this or was this not the right thing to do? Timing aside, was it right to do this?
I think it was. I also fervently hope that, in the future, other governments will vote on resolutions to condemn the U.S. government for its long, long line of atrocities, committed by the CIA, et al., in furtherance of an American empire, capitalism touted as democracy.
Turkey wants to deny what they've done? How is that any worse than bush supporters denying the deaths of Iraqi citizens? Remember how our own Congress shied away from investigating Abu Ghraib when Nick Berg was killed. It's never right to deny a fact, especially an ugly fact. Sooner or later, there's blowback.
Just my 2 cents worth. I understand the risk.
What risk? Read the resolution...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills...
There is no risk. The resolution does nothing but recognize that the turkish government of 1915 did slaughter 1.5 million Armenians. The turks have no right to be on bad terms with the U.S. at all. Its time for them to face the truth. Besides, Turkey gets so much money from our government that it wouldnt be worth it for them to ruin relations.
You guys are arguing that now is not the time. Its been a hundred years almost. Tell me, when exactly is the time to recognize something that should have been recognized the second it happened?
The U.S. is one of the last "big" countries that still denies the occurrence of the Armenian Genocide. What does that tell you about our country? I guess the US just doesn't understand the concepts of morality and ethics.
Most progressive countries of the world have passed this resolution.
If we all remember before the invasion of Iraq Turkey refused to allow our
troopes to enter Iraq through Turkey. Who knows howmany of our soldiers were hurt or
killed because of that. This was in despite of US foreign aid to Turkey in the sum of billions of $$$$ per year.
Not long after that Mr. Bush traveled to Turkey and paid them an
additional 2 billion + $$$$.
I think that was to thank them not allowing our troopes in. :(
"this Congress would never do anything that would affect people or policies or things." You said it, Aasif! He's my favorite DS correspondent--and that's saying a lot.
When will he be asked to sign the non-binding resolution on the American Genocide in Iraq?
Caro @ 33:
3/21/2005 Neal Boortz
SCREWED BY TURKEY
Remember two years ago, at the start of the U.S. invasion of Iraq when the United States had to rush at the last minute and change plans because the weak-kneed, weasly government of Turkey wouldn't let our troops stage there? We were supposed to be able to invade Iraq from both directions....the north and the south....until Turkey cut us off.
Well, we learned yesterday just how devastating this loss of a northern base was. Speaking on Fox News Sunday yesterday, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld spoke of Turkey's antics two years ago, and the high cost of their lack of cooperation. He said that had we been able to get the 4th Infantry Division into Iraq from the north, more of Saddam's goons would have been captured or killed, and the insurgency would be far less than it was today.
One also wonders if our boys would have been able to stop the mass exodus into Syria of former regime officials, weaponry and (likely) stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. It cannot be underestimated how much this lack of cooperation by Turkey cost American lives and made our job infinitely more difficult.
So the next time Turkey's boob gets caught in the wringer, we should take a pass. What goes around comes around.
snark :-)
A few questions come to mind... why is a foreign government lobbying my elected members of Congress? It is a NON-BINDING resolution...why is so easy for Turkey to suddenly start threatening the lives of brother and sisters serving in Iraq? Is this what you call an ally against terrorism?
It is time to get our foreign policy ALIGNED with our American values. This country wasn't built on kow-towing to threats by foreign governments. In fact during the debate of the bill... a Congressman from NJ said "I feel like I got a Turkish Sword hanging over my head if I vote the wrong way. I don't like that feeling."
The Resolution is being supported by grassroots activism... power to the people and to Jon Stewart. May the force be with you.
Are you guys crazy? This is a non-binding resolution that simply affirms the US record on the Armenian Genocide. Turkey has created a firestorm over this when there needn't be one. Armenian-Americans have been trying to get such a resolution passed for decades. Its never "the right time." During the Cold War the excuse was that Turkey had a key strategic location. Then it was Gulf War I, now Gulf War II. There will never be a "right time" when Turkey threatens, bullies and blackmails the US into turning a blind eye on historical truths. Don't you think our country should be strong enough to join the majority of nations around the world who have recognized the Armenian Genocide and send a strong message to the Turks that its time for them to face their past. No one want to admit that their ancestors butchered over a million people. But, Turkey will have to look back at its past and accept the truth if it truly desires to join the developed nations of the world. Moreover, how can any of you bloggers not understand that if you turn a blind eye on GENOCIDE, it will occur again and again. Hitler looked back at the Armenian Genocide and said, "Who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?" When you let evil people get away with their evil, others will surely feel that they can do the same. Let's join the rest of civilized world and say "NO" to Genocide, and "NO" to Genocide denial.
Paul @ 32:
Thank you.
Bravo Congress! Refreshing to see the moral equation take precedence over petty politics. Admitting this event as Genocide was absolutely the right thing to do.
The concept "now is not the right time" just gets under my skin. In other words, its like saying "yeah, ok, the Armenians were slaughtered and butchered by the Turks. But....we land our warplanes on the Turkish airstrips. So, its just not the right time to acknowledge the suffering of 1.5 million people"
Again, BRAVO Congres!! You did the right thing. No hypocrisy, no empty promises. It is the moral authority of the USA coming back to light.
Edwin @ 35:
When will he be asked to sign the non-binding resolution on the American Genocide in Iraq? I figured this bore repeating.
The Turkish genocide is deplorable. (I've known about it for decades.) I wonder, why this bill and why NOW? In all the years, why now? What aren't we being told? It's not as though Congress doesn't have its hands full already, without this, now. (Sorry to any Armenian friends, but I hope you understand the point I'm making.) Turkey, Middle East, Russian navy/Black Sea/Bosporous, US missile bases in Turkey etc., etc. Something doesn't add up to me.
Also it's proximity to these countries: "We're going to take out 7 countries in 5 years: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan & Iran.."
Video Interview with General Wesley Clark
Cythraul @ 18:
His english is fine, numbnuts. He just missed typing the "k" in " to ask why".
It is no different. Millions of Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrian Christians were systematically killed by Turks in a highly systematic genocide, and America (and the other allies, as well) stayed mum because of self interest.
I say Congress is showing some guts in doing this.
But alas, we need Turkey as a launching pad and a Muslim friend. Yeah, so doing it now is risky, yet is there ever a "good time" to take a stand?
Armenian American @ 40:
Yes, thank you!
Why are you guys panicking? Did you forget that Turkey backstubbed us back in 2003. No matter your view on the war, you have to agree that we were betrayed by the Turkey. Also don't forget that if it wasn't for the U.S $,$$$,$$$,$$$'s Turkish economy would have been in the toilet seat. Also who the hell is Turkey to threaten US that it will retaliate? How about we retaliate and cut the billions that we have given them. And they are so stupid that they can't stop talking about it. I mean Armenians could never publicized this event, as much as Turkey does by denying it. In the end the only loser in this case is Turkey. US will not be hut one bit if it looses its "ally"
Edwin:
Edwin, because it's long overdue--in fact, 92 years overdue. Armenian-Americans (who are primarily descendants of the Genocide survivors) have urged their government to recognize the truth for 9 decades. And for 9 decades Turkey has used every dirty trick in the book to prevent the US from doing the right thing. If we don't do it now, 10 years later we will say "why 100 years later?"--such a question only rewards Turkey's campaign to suppress the truth.
There will always be problems in the Middle East, and Turkey will always use them to keep the US foreign policy hostage. Turkey is literally toying with the United States--it denied the US troops access to critical Turkish territory for the Iraq war, now it's threatening to invade Northern Iraq--have you read the arrogant language used by the Turkish PM in his latest threats? It's humiliating to the United States, and the US should stop letting Turkey dictate its policy on America.
Almost all industrialized nations have recognized the Genocide, virtually all Western scholars agree that it happened, the overwhelming majority of US States have done the same--it's time for the US to stop giving in to Turkish blackmails. And by the way, Turkey needs the US way more than the US needs Turkey--they have dug themselves in a pretty deep hole with the Europeans and Kurds and their poor human rights record.
BTW, according to MSNBC poll, 63 % of the readers are in support of Congress passing the resolution: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21253084/
Why is it significant whether the US government "condemns" the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians. The genocide is a historical fact. It is taught in universities (in appropriate courses). It is written about and discussed and reported on. Why does the government also have to "recognize" it? It's not as though we were responsible for it (unlike slavery, the dispossession and massacres of Native Americans, the "communist" purges, etc.).
As for those who think failing to "recognize" something with an otherwise meaningless government resolution is the same as denying that it ever happened, your position illogical. You are claiming that the existence or non-existence of something is determined by US government recognition.
Finally, who are we supposed to be condemning? Guilt does not transcend generations.
1.5 million deaths, no biggy huh George?
Next he's going to tell us that Hitler, Pol Pot & Stalin were misunderstood!
AnnaSou:
Anna, actually the US was probably the only ally after WWI that gave any meaningful support to Armenians after the Genocide. And we Armenians are forever grateful to Americans for it. Both Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt condemned the Genocide (they called it "planned extermination of Armenians" back then), Americans sent millions of dollars in aid to the surviving Armenians, and President Wilson pledged that the US would serve as the protector of the newly established Armenian Republic (which at the time would include the devastated areas of Turkish Armenia as well). Unfortunately, in later decades the US reversed its policy, giving in to Turkish pressures, which continues to this day.
Gene @ 22:
Does your planet allow killing millions and then denying it? If so, I'd be afraid to visit.
Gottaluvjon @ 39:
Absolutely. Well said. Amen.
If you look back to all the multiple times this bill had been drafted, it has always been shot down and pulled out last minute with the excuse that its "a bad time" and it will "put us in danger."
Blaed @ 3:
Thank God that this important resolution seems to FINALLY be on its way to the House floor. If now is not a good time to recognize the Armenian Genocide, then tell me.. when the hell WILL be a good time? It's been 90 years since the events occurred! Let's condemn this despicable atrocity once and for all and get on with it.
Bob Roberts @ 49:
Bob, It is significant because to this day, while most of the rest of the world acknowledges the historical truth of the Armenian Genocide, Turkey continues to deny that it happened. Turkish Penal Code Section 301 actually makes it a crime in Turkey to discuss the murders of the Armenians as an "insult to Turkishness." Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was recently gunned down in the street by a nationalistic Turk. Before his death he was prosecuted under section 301 for writing about the Armenian Genocide. His son, as well, was just prosecuted under that same law for publishing some of his father's writings on the Genocide. You cannot turn a blind eye to a nation that refuses to admit a horrific period of its past. Denial is the last and final stage of Genocide. To allow a country such as Turkey to rewrite history and deny the truth on a matter of such great magnitude is to allow those who would commit atrocities in places like Darfur to believe that they can get away with their evil. When a country such as the US sends a loud and clear statement that any Genocide, even one that occurred 90 years ago, is unacceptable, the world will listen and Turkey may just take an unpleasant yet honest look at its history.
Everybody: There is a despicable dirty secret that lies behind the real reason why the Armenian genocide is being denied. Educate yourselves about its history and therein lies the answer. Think of something other than Turkey, OTHER than what is "officially" the reason. I would be banned if I even mentioned the real reason. This is very very very serious. Use the internet, read and absorb. Spend a few hours. It's all there in the history. It's unbelievable that Holocaust deniers are (rightly) condemned but this denial of the Armenian genocide--and IT IS DENIAL--is santioned.
Gottaluvjon @ 56:
I was unaware of Section 301 and I acknowledge the validity of much of your argument. However, a government resolution condemning an event, without more, is at best of merely symbolic significance. It's not as though we are threatening military intervention or economic sanctions in order to make changes in Turkish politics, culture or criminal law.
In what way are we to prevent Turkey from rewriting its history within its own borders? Even if toothless American condemnation might have had some salutary effect in the past (which I doubt), it's not as though we currently have the moral high ground in the international stage.
Look at the language used by the Turkish PM (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21271276):
-"Turkey will not be deterred by the diplomatic consequences if it decides to stage a cross-border offensive into Iraq"
-"Did they (Americans) seek permission from anyone when they came from a distance of 10,000 kilometers and hit Iraq? We do not need anyone else’s advice."
-"Turkey is ready to sacrifice good ties with Washington if necessary. Let it snap from wherever it gets thin."
Is this the language of an ally? Who the hell do they think they are?
Don't be intimidated by how complicated the history is.
It took me a long time. Connect the dots. Read between the lines.
We should not allow Turkish blackmail attempts to determine American foreign policy.
If we are too afraid to condemn a genocide that happened during WWI, what gives us the right to condemn genocides happening today?
The threats Turks have made makes it clear that they truly are not as close allies as they pretend to be.
The US provides Turkey with 1 BILLION dollars in aid every year, but WHERE was turkey in 2003 when we needed to use their border to open a northern front on Iraq? They refused the americans because the turks were selfish and did not want to be affected. Isn't it clear that turkey is only allied with the US when it is in THEIR interest?
We can NOT let turkey try to wipe out the bad spots in their history -- as Americans we should never let ourselves be blackmailed by a country like Turkey.
There is a big differerence between massacre and genocide. Genocide is the governments policy of complete elimiation of a certain )in this case ethnic) group of people. The killings which happened during WWI were NOT a genocide. Massacre, perhaps. But once again, http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin3/atrocity.htm
Jon Stewart mentioned the mass killings of native americans and africans in the US. Is that genocide? Is what the French soldiers did to Algerian citizens genocide? What about present day Armenia occupation of Azerbaijan and the mass kilings committed throughout the war? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihbD9TQr_Q0
What about ASALA? This just proves that the land of the free can be manipulated by various lobbies. This time it was the Armenian lobby, which pushed 27 fools to literally destabilize the situation in the middle east. Oh yea, and some analytically challanged politician wanna-be made a comment about the Turks "invading the Kurds". In order to invade someone they need to have a state. Kurds don't have one. They do however have Abdulla Ocalan. Yea, do some research on him too.
The consequences of this idiotic bill could potentially lead to another war. And it is gonna be HUGE. The US knows that, but once again, it was the US who benefits from wars, is it not?
TigrantheGreat, tell your friends more about Great Armenia, ASALA, Khojali, January 1990, Dashnaktsutsun, would you?
Actually, it's possible we should be pleased that Turkey refused to allow US troops to enter Iraq from the North. As I understand it, the Turkish Parliament voted and the US proposal was defeated by only three votes. What was actually proposed was (1) for US troops to enter Kurdistan from the Turkish side, (2) move south to attack Iraqi nationalist army positions and (3) be replaced by Turkish forces, which were to occupy much of northern Iraq to "prevent Kurdish refugees from flooding into Turkey".
The leaders of the various Kurdish militias in Northern Iraq stated, in no uncertain terms, that they would treat occupation by Turkish troops as a Turkish invasion and would fight. In other words, we may have just missed kicking off an even wider war by three votes.
This is not a subject, "just being brought up now." Its a on going effort to bring not only recognition and justice for the genocide, but to finally give peace to the souls affected by this.
Killing a man and denying it is pitiful, killing men women and children and denying it is despicable, if you do not know how this genocide occurred, read up on it, and maybe you'll understand that the idea for the holocaust was brought upon Hitler through the turks doings to Armenians, every day we bring this issue up, it is always being talked about, its not only now, we have had marches ceremonies and hearings for the last 102 years.
It’s only brought public about once a year, for the anniversary on the 24th of April, but this is a big chance for justice, and thats why your hearing about it now, and the uneducated don't understand, because either they worry about money, or they simply don't know.
Please take the time to understand what this means, theres genocide going on as we speak, and still nothing is being done about it even today. It's the same thing thats preventing us to take initiative towards global warming, money, it controls the world, not the people, stop being greedy.
[Edited for format. Please don't post in All Caps. Thanks-Sitemonitor]
Why in the hell are we spending time proposing resolutions and voting on issues that occurred 100 years ago? We have far more important issues to settle that impact our country and its citizens now. Immigration, health insurance, Iraq war, energy costs, homelessness, a weak economy, etc, etc, etc. Get on with the business at hand. When those issues are settled, then take all the time you want to go into past historical events and knock yourself out with all the resolutions you want.
In 1915, thirty-three years before UN Genocide Convention, the Armenian Genocide was condemned by the international community as a crime against humanity by many Western countries. It is well acknowledged that Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.
I think its time for Showtime to start showing Midnight Express again.
"For a country full of pigs, its funny you (turks) don't eat them"
guess, it is hard to understand the decision of the congress for something that is America is not a part of.
Turkey is an Ally and a Friend of America they always been there for us and we should do the same.
they were with us in Korea, Somalia, Bosnia,First Gulf war, Afghanistan, Iraq you have to be pretty ungrateful to offend an Ally and a Friend like that.
no wonder we dont have any other country that we can call a friend other than Britain i guess.
i dont think we have to jeopardize America's interest over half a million Armenians that are living here in this country. it's no brainer half a million versus 300 million.
as for the genocide issue i think, you dont have to be rocket scientist to think that that is something the historians should decide not congressmen/congresswomen.
i bet most of them dont know nothing about the issue.
why not have the historians make a call on that. that makes perfect sense to me.
i think, the segment was funny. it could've been little bit more towards the Turkish-Americans.
i just noticed some of the Armenian comments here and that is disturbing seriously!
i dont see any different between these guys attitude and antisemitic attitude.
that is shame!!!!
being racist towards any ethnicity is something we as Americans should not encourage...
Bob Roberts @ 58:
I agree with you that this resolution is merely symbolic and for that reason, the Turkish response has been astonishing. They have literally spent tens of millions of dollars (remember, Turkey receives a huge amount of aid from our tax dollars) to defeat this purely symbolic resolution. One must ask why. The answer is that this resolution will have a huge effect on Turkey's response to their "Armenian Question." Most major countries of the world have already passed such resolutions and the EU has listed Turkey's acknowledgment of the Genocide as a precondition to their entry. As long as the US stands with Turkey on this issue, Turkey feels like it has some major (albeit weakened) support and will continue to deny. However, when you have all of the major countries in the world wagging a finger at you, its becomes much more difficult to keep your head in the sand.
i guess, it doesn't matter how symbolic it is. it is quite offensive to accuse someone for something that they believe they didn't commit.
everyone has to understand something here..... in America we believe all suspects are Innocent till proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
if all these people are genuinely reacting so harsh on something as symbolic as this that means there has to be some doubt about this and it has to be research by the people who knows something about the event. perhaps some independent historians non-Turkish non-Armenians and have them tell us what it is instead of hearing only one side of the story over and over here.
there certainly some questions about this claims and it has to be clarified till then doesn't matter how many country passes resolution or what.
you guys have to make your case to the Turks and make them believe.
The bottom line is that the United States has never been wrong about anything...ever.
Why do you think they call it Turkey?
Watch out Thanksgiving's right around the corner.
This is too easy.
I need something to do.
Turkey has not "always been a friend and ally to America." Our relationship with Turkey has always been a Devil's Bargain. Remember, when this war started, Turkey refused to let our planes launch from their air bases...bases that, basically, our tax dollars funded.
If I understand your logic, if a people react "so harsh" against something must mean that they are innocent? They continue to deny it because they have been successful; because they have never been held accountable!!
Eric, plenty of independent historians - American, European, and yes, Turkish - have investigated and concluded that the Turks committed genocide. Turkish scholars continue to admonish their own government to acknowledge it (and many have been jailed over their assertions). The US ambassador to the Ottoman empire at the time, Henry Morgenthau documented and reported his observations (you can find his writings on the net), American doctors and others who were in the Ottoman Empire documented it fully at the time (how many pictures of mass deportations and live burnings do you need?). But at the time, we had no compelling national interest (where have I heard that before?), wallowing in our isolationism. The historian who coined the phrase, "genocide," referred to this as "the first genocide of the modern century".
By your logic, I guess the jury on the Jewish Holocaust is still out, too.
Why is this significant? Well, aside from it being the first genocide of the 20th century, and was cited by Hitler as a reason that the world would turn a blind eye to what he intended to do ("Who remembers the Armenians?"), it is important because it perpetuates the failed American foreign policy of building up military dictatorships because it's in our short-term interest. Ask yourself, "why is our government, so full of hubris, scared of p*ssing off Turkey?" It's about money, all right - all the money our government has dumped into a country because "the enemy of our enemy is our friend." Why are we not supportive of Kurdish independence in Iraq, in the only area where they are 99% supportive of America? Because Turkey doesn't want us to give the Kurds autonomy.
So, why is this important now? Because the last of the holocaust survivors are dying, and soon there won't be any more first hand accounts... and people like you can further cast doubt on historical facts.
Why is it important now? Because our country has zero moral authority left in the world. And Moral Authority isn't doing something right because it is in your best interest; real Moral Authority comes from doing what is right because it is right...telling the truth not because it's convenient, but because truth is still important.
And I reject summarily this argument that, because we haven't done enough to acknowledge what our own country did with slavery and Native Americans, then we shouldn't be judging Turkey. Really? Then shut up about Darfur, Rowanda, Korean Comfort Women, and on and on.
Armenians (of which, BTW, I am not one), have no real power or lobby in this country, or the world. Turkey is much more powerful. Europe understands this, and yet refuses to allow Turkey to join the EU until they admit their role in the genocide.
I am shocked that a website full of progressives, liberals and independents are buying the Bush line. Even he is parsing words, calling it "mass killings" instead of genocide.
to all the retards saying why bring up this issue now if it happend 90 years ago... well because armenians have been fighting for 90 years to try to show the kinds of things Turkey has done, and it is only now that after alot of effort they were finally able to bring the issue to this point.
I wholeheartedly agree with Bufffan's post above.
To compare the Armenian Genocide of 1915, to the INVASION of another country (Iraq) is plain idiotic...
Bush bashers will just use this resolution to compare the Iraq war to the other atrocities in history.
Lame...
John Stewart wins!
I'm enjoying the whole thinhs. This "incident" will put an end to Turkey's plans to join the EU. We don't need those motherfuckers over here. Too fucking primitive.
The Armenian genocide was reported on and photographed at the time by a German soldier who was breaking all security rules. He forwarded the information to his HQ. He was trying to stop what he saw as the murder of Christians. But he accidentally laid the ground work for the Final Solution. When he protested, he "disappeared."
I too questioned the timing of this resolution, but I read in yesterday's Dallas Morning Nudes a squib about mounting tensions between the Turks and the Kurds (who are trying to create a Kurdistan). May the resolution be indirectly addressing this issue?
Anti Turk @ 68:
Wayland Smithers enjoyed the Turkish prisons though.
I always wondered it they got his name from Wayland the Smith. One can hear that name in both the Erroll Flynn version of Robin Hood, and the Michael Praed version as a contestant in the archery contest. Wayland the Smith appears to be a mythological figure of the Divine Smith, when blacksmithing was deemed a magickal act.
jkb @ 25:
Jon is smart. He knows that we are guilty of awful things, too. And though we may never have made an official, national apology to, say, Native Americans, slaves, Japanese internees, or any of the other people against whom we have sinned, those Americans who DO bring up our own sins, and who write, speak, and share ideas about them are not killed, nor imprisoned, as those in Turkey who bring up the genocide are. Witness, Orhan Pamuk, for one. What's more, we as a nation don't deny that those before us sinned against these folks, but Turkey denies the genocide outright. That's the huge difference.
Straight Shooter @ 31:
How is it different? Because, for one, Americans can speak up about the deaths in Iraq. We can freely congregate, protest, call our reps, demand something (even if we don't get it and the senseless war contines). It's different because in Turkey, unless you deny the genocide, you're suspect of anti-Turkish sentiment. Freedom, freedom of thought, of debate, of rage, of resolution. That's the difference. We've got it, Turkey denies it, as it denies its crimes against millions.
Bob Roberts @ 49:
Taught in very few universities, as the Turkish lobby and its sponsored professors (such as at Princeton) take great pains to paint a revisionist history. Americans can personally voice our outrage at the sins of those who came before us, those involved in murdering Native Americans, profiting from slavery, and any other number of crimes/sins. There may or may not have been official apologies about these atrocities in our own land, but our crimes are nationally recognized. The damage that people in the past did to others can't ever be undone; but we can recognize the guilt, make laws to try to stop the atrocities in the future, and we can lament and move on, in freedom. I can go to the street and protest our policies in the Middle East. I can get a bullhorn, if I choose, and lead a picket in DC against the lack of adequate reparations for Native Americans. I can write emails to the White House saying, "President Bush, you are all wrong on this and that..." and I can do so knowing that I'm not going to get busted for it. They can't do that it Turkey, or if they do, they do it with great risk of prison. And if the Turks don't say, "OK, we did it. We carried out a systematic genocide against all Christian minorities," then what's the stop them from doing it again?
Ru Hasanov @ 62:
Just curious: Are you Turkish?
Turkey needs to acknowledge the genocide committed by a "former" government and armenians need to recognize that there are many turks who know this truth. We don't need to spew hatred but reconciliation. The armenians are as indigenous to turkey as the native americans are to the US. Righteous turks, make us proud of our common history and good will towards another and accept this resolution. Then lets move on!
Eric @ 72:
Actually, many non-Armenian and non-Turkish writers (many of whom witnessed the genocides) provide ample testimony to substantiate it.
Also, early 20th century Ottoman and Turkish documents provide damning evidence that this wasn't just a massacre, but a genocide. If interested, a Google search on the matter will lead you to many sources, one of the best being the Americans Henry Morgenthau and George Horton and also the Brit, Lord Bryce.
Here's what Turkish Ministry of the Interior, Talaat Bey, wrote, in a memo dated Sept 15, 1915:
"It was first communicated to you that the Government, by the order of the Jemiet, had decided to destroy completely all Armenians living in Turkey. Those who oppose this order and decision cannot remain on official staff of the Empire. An end must be put to their existence, however criminal the measures taken may be, and no regard must be paid to age, or sex, or to conscientious scruple. Signed, Minister of the Interior, Talaat."
AN ARMENIAN WITH ANSWERS FOR YOU @ 65:
Some books that may be helpful are: Dido Sotiriou's, "Farewell Anatolia"; Franz Werfel's, "Musa Dagh," Thea Halo's, "Not Even My Name"; and M. Housepian's "The Smyrna Affair," among many others. The story of Asia Minor and the catastrophies there is one of the most sorrowful, yet neglected story in humanity. I think whoever reads the accounts of the events that happened there in the early 20th century will forever see things in a different light. Memory eternal to the souls of the fallen.
TigranTheGreat @ 51:
AnnaSou @ 92:
Tigran, I didn't know that. I know that Greece also allowed all refugees to enter Pireaus harbor when brought from the quays at Smyrna.
daleok @ 66:
Justice is part of the business at hand. And again, if in 90 years we have not dealt with the ugly business of our so-called "Ally" Turkey, will there ever be a good time? Nope. Go, Congress!
Eric @ 70:
Please be specific, Eric, or you risk demonizing an entire people. Please, quote those who strike you as "Armenian." And, please explain how you know their ethnicity :). You know, many people who are non-Armenians condemn Turkey for its genocide. The lobby has grown and the whole world is watching. So, please, let's have some specifics. Exactly which comments on this board strike you as "disturbing seriously!" and "racist?" And, perhaps most importantly, why are the comments racist?
Eric @ 70:
Eric, please be specific. Exactly which comments struck you as "racist?" And, how do you know that the writers of those comments are "Armenian?"
Unless you provide quotes and substantiate your accusation, you risk demonizing a whole group of people by calling them "racist" when in fact, they may be non-racists who simply disagree with your opinion of Turkey's past.
jkb @ 25:
This is an indirect way of ending the war. Turkey won't turn it's back on America. It will act pissed as it has done with Canada, France and every other country that has called this tragedy a genocide. Then, it will calm down and come crawling back to us. That's what third world nations like Turkey with double digit inflation and a military junta at the head of government do. So let's just pass this resolution instead of acting like Turkey's bitch. They cut off supply lines. Bush will have NO choice but to end the war and Nancy Pelosi has a win-win situation on her hands... Well played Pelosi!
ss
www.sinikian.blogspot.com
Come one for God's sake.. we're talking about a genocide here! Put politics aside and take the humanistic step. Oh never mind, we're talking about the U.S. here. When is it gonna be a good time to recognize the genocide one wonders? This has been going on for years. It's never a good time, so we should do it now. Why do we let Turkey threaten us like that? It's a NATO member blah blah, who gives a shit. Without United States, Turkey is NOBODY! And they very well know this. They've already cut relations with many countries including Canada and France for recognizing the genocide. They can't isolate themselves from everyone.. They won't survive without us and these chickens need to see that. Specially since Turkey is threatening us like this, we MUST recognize the genocide. They're blackmailing us. Who the F.. is Turkey to blackmail us like this. This is unacceptable.
Smack_dab @ 5:
Are you dense? 1.5 million people dead is meaningless? how can you compare the death of 1.5 million armenians to american idol? god forbid some country gets pissed off for giving an event its rightful name(genocide) after denying it for 90 years. Why now you ask? why not then! Millions of people have been begging for recognition of the killing of those armenains for over 90 years! Thank you for making it clear you have neither a soul or a brain buddy
Quibbling over the exact number of dead seems meaningless. In addition to the fact, that NO ONE here or in the media presents a FACTUAL case for preferring one number over the other; it is just callous, cruel, and political. The Jewish holocaust at the hands of Nazi Germany is fairly well documented, yet exact numbers even there elude us. How can you count so many that had been ground to dust long before the Allies arrived? You cannot; there may be no hard evidence one way or another from so long ago. And you don't really need to.
Many, many people died in WWI. Too many. Many, many Armenians were slaughtered also. The larger point is the methods and the ways that enabled this horror, and all the other horrors of war. Rape, torture, execution -- humans can and do really thrive on these things. We MUST acknowledge that to prevent it in the future. That is the real point here, and the lesson of the holocaust.
America, whether they pass this resolution or not, should NOT pat itself on the back for safeguarding the world against fascism. To say that is just fucking ridiculous, as we have not even restored habeous corpus and normal rule of law in our OWN country yet. America pays mercenaries to slaughter innocent civilians, and refuses to hold them accountable for their actions. In America, it is sad, but fortunately legal to deny the holocaust, the slaughter (including using bio-weapons) of the Native Americans, or even that the enslavement of Africans was a bad thing. Yet strangely our allies find better things to do (like reducing poverty, encouraging peace, or fighting AIDS and malaria) rather than insisting the U.S. pass resolutions referencing the above. This non-meaningful resolution does not make American a better place tomorrow, and is not intended as such. It is purely political and manipulative -- a small physical manifestation of our own rampant hypocrisy. Propaganda and insults, rather than honesty; the favorite tools of a budding fascist regime.
More importantly, does this really help Armenians? The answer would seem to be no, according to many of their leaders. Willing acknowledgment of the magnitude of death would be great, but thrusting this between the relationship of Turkey and NATO, while surely serving some twisted private goal of Halliburton, Cheney, or Blackwater, does little to help living Armenians. It may even make things much, much worse. Do you really think there wouldn't be a backlash against Armenians (heck, all Christians in Turkey, really) if this was acknowledged by the Turkish government? Further radicaling Mulsims already frenzied by the Kurdish PKK inside Turkey, and the failure of the state of Iraq? While this may be interesting for politicians with 2nd or 3rd generation Armenian immigrants in their districts, it doesn't help the rest of the world.
If democracy survives long enough, Turkey will eventually revisit this issue, and be forced to the right side of history. Yes, even if the population at current cannot yet calmly discuss this with both war and Kurdish terrorists on their doorstep. If we continue to calculatingly push the exact buttons the radical Imams need to radicalize all of Isam to jihad against the U.S., the real question is, "will democracy survive"? For those currently in power here in America and the shrinking 0.05% of the increasingly wealthy Americans who prefer a fascist militaristic government that they can wield for personal gain, the answer seems to be "no, not if we can help it". They'd rather have the power generated by fear, and a perpetual state of war.
Is that the side the American public really wants to be on?
Ted @ 2:
I understand your pessimism about ANY legislation passed during this current Bush regime. But without any evidence to back up your claims of corruption, your post just sounds overly gloomy and paranoid. Do you have a "someone" in mind who will financially benefit from this new [possible but not assumed] substitute for Turkey? Surely there was some company you had in mind that lobbied tirelessly to get this bill passed... Who?
Consider for a moment that the intension behind this bill perhaps is purely ethical and humanitarian -- not financial and/or political. (I understand that it's difficult in this day and age with Bush in *ug* office/Crawford. Please try anyhow.) If Germany were piviotal to success in Iraq (?), would we refuse to denounce the Holocaust? Perhaps Volvo's cars would sell better than German cars as a result, but don't assume that Sweden was behind the movement!
I agree that the timing of this bill is wrong. It is not due. It is long, long overdue. Shame on Bush and his entire administration for playing politics with such a sensitive matter.
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 106:
It is 100 years later, a few more years of calmly reasoning with Turkey until they can accept the truth will be far more effective than all this pomp and passing "resolutions" in apparent spite.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. This bill attempts to drown the horse by holding its head under water. A little short-sighted, no? The goal is to calmly convince the Turkish people what happened, not just piss them off, isn't it?
Wrong. As if 90 yeas of trying to reason is not enough?? Trust me my friend, if Turkey not willing to recognize it after 90 years they never will unless there is pressure from the outside community on them. Are you unaware of the current blockade Turkey has put on Armenia? They has put blockade on Armenia and will only remove it when Armenia drops all the genocide "charges". So basically they're saying - rewrite history the way we want it, or suffer the consequences of telling the truth. Like how they're blackmailing US today. You still want to reason with such country? Ask the Greeks.. they will tell you that reasoning with Turkey is out of question.
tukey is pretty gay for doin this, why can't they be a man and just accept they massacred the armenians??
oh wait..they're not a man. shame
you must be insanely dumb to even thunk of that. I really feel bad for you, wow. If this is what America's youth is becoming, do me a favor and wake me up.
LMAO at the comment above me. SO true
that guy should go get a life. and a brain
please.
Wuts so hard about admiting something like that? If they're so scared to admit the truth, then why did they wipe out more than 1.5 million INNOCENT people???
turkey "is pretty gay for doing this"??? And you call the other guy childish you simplistic homophobic pig.
[Deleted. Inflammatory-Sitemonitor]
To understand Turkish sensitivities on the issue, one needs to understand the history of Armenian revolts carried out by Armenian nationalist and separatist organizations such as Dashnaktsutyun (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) in the Ottoman Empire and mass killings of Muslims. These organizations are still active and heavily involved in the lobbying efforts to pass the Armenian genocide resolution. Their final goal is the same as in the 1800s: to grab land from the Turks. An interview with a spokesman of Dashnaktsutyun ("Dashnaks Insist On Territorial Claims To Turkey," by Ruzanna Khachatrian) presents their staged efforts, which will be final with a claim of territory from Turkey:
http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2006/01/8a45c245-3...
Ru Hasanov @ 62:
I agree
Yavuz @ 107:
Revolts. Hmmm, now, I wonder why Armenians might want to revolt against an Ottoman/Nationalist Turkish government that freely taxed them as religious minorities, murdered their mothers, fathers, children in a systematic genocide, and then lied about it? Revolts only occured after provocation by the Turks, and their damage was but a raindrop in the ocean of murder and coverup commited by the Turks.
Muslims Against Sharia commend House Democrats and Speaker Pelosi for pressing ahead with an Armenian genocide bill.
Muslims Against Sharia condemn Turkish government for refusing to acknowledge Armenian genocide and recalling its US ambassador as a response to the bill.
Source: AFP
Post
History is History.Facts in History are fact.
Genocide og the Armenians by Osman turks is a fact, US people, even Bush admits it happened, wether he calls it MASS KILLINGS or GENOCIDE does not change this fact.
Why current Turkish politicians so sensitive about this matter, even they condemned their leaders of that period, put them on trials and sentenced them to death.
Politics is based on interests of nations and national security matters, and this usually contradicts with historical facts, thus the current Administration might condemn this Bill now but might approve it if the massacres were done by china or Russia.This is the double standards of politicians.
[Deleted. No need to trash an entire ethnicity over the actions of only some of them-Sitemonitor]
bc @ 111:
You know, the more comments I see like this, the more likely I am to sympathize with the Turks. I am somewhat familiar with the history of Bulgaria, and so also the complex of old hatreds amongst everyone in the Balkans/Asia Minor already. Your comment only makes you look foolish.
@102
(Wow the comments are all messed up here. My original post that you reference is just gone? I hope no one found it offensive.) "Trust me my friend, if Turkey not willing to recognize it after 90 years they never will unless there is pressure from the outside community on them."
But that is the problem. Just a bunch of talk in the U.S. Congress does NOTHING to actually get the Turkish people to accept your perspective that this mass killing (of so many mass killings in the 2 great wars) was in fact genocide. And, as pointed out, even were they to accept this, what is the point? They already knew that government was bad, they killed that government and put the leaders of it to death, didn't they? I still don't see any rational point made here for the "hurry" or even the point to this, since all agree this is a very different Turkey than in 100 years ago.
I honestly sympathize with the minority status and feelings persecution of Armenians (or Kurds or dang near everyone that lives in Asia minor. Or the Balkans. Or the Middle East. etc.) but nothing justifies terrorism.
Wether the PKK or whatever Armenian separatist militias, trying to cede is never easy, and in modern times it is almost always will waste blood for no real gain. Even in America, secession killed or crippled so many, yet never was successful. After, people got smart and decided to work THROUGH the system instead, remaining part of the original state.
I still think there is manipulation for this particular issue to come up right now. I feel one side (or both) isn't telling the whole truth of their motives for frantically pushing at this time.
@107
Thanks for answering some of the questions.
Most of the disagreement here, in my humble opinion, has to do with many commenters justifying one side or the other with "eye for an eye". This is not justice and only leads to more pain. Thousands of years of it, in fact. Hasn't enough hatred already been stirred up there already?
I don't think the U.S. should buy into manipulation, on either side. We have other priorities at the moment. People can feel free to hate the Turks just because they're Turks, and Turks can hate Kurds and Armenians because they demand to be given large parts of Turkey. Whatever. The more I learn of this the more I think the U.S. should just say "to hell with all of you until you grow up" and stay out of it.
I can understand why this is an inconvenient time to recognize the Armenian Genocide, but for anyone who is wondering "why now" or "why all of a sudden", the anwser to that is that it is not a sudden debate. or the past 92 years Armenians have been struggling to have this truth recognized by the world so that Turkey will stop denying and take responsibilty. Unfortunatey, a long line of presidents have made empty promises, and while Armenians do not abandon their demand for justice it becomes harder every year.
I understand that this is not a good time, but the whole point of this sketch was that there should never be an excuse for denying a painful Genocide. If the Germans were denying the Holocaust, it would literally be the same as helping them cover it up and disrespecting millions of people just for our own agenda. Its plain immoral and wrong.
Lynnianaa @ 24:
...what did we get by pissing the germans off?
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 112:
dont speak to me of terrorism until you dismantle the Mossad...why recognize the genocide and disturb Turkey? Ask Ron Goldman's father why he still insists on screwing OJ Simpson when the criminal courts found the latter innocent of all charges. get a life, you losers who are "trying" to understand what is going on...youll never understand unless you walk a day in my Armenian Shoes...
this is the most racist bunch of people that I've been in a discussion with .... by far
and what's more pathetic is i have posted a comment last night and now i see that is deleted by somebody that alone show that how insecure you guys are !!!! that is sad.
[Actually-let's keep the story straight here. Last night nothing was posting here after 11:00 pm PDT. Only sporadic postings were showing about a half hour before that. And posts just disappeared. Many posts from last night were lost due to server problems. None of the mods were able to access the editing, so no one took your post down-it either never went up, or the server ate it. The insecurity lies with you, Eric-Sitemonitor]
Annasoul@96; you asked !
"Eric, please be specific. Exactly which comments struck you as “racist?” And, how do you know that the writers of those comments are “Armenian?” "
antiturk@68; hence the name.
" I think its time for Showtime to start showing Midnight Express again.
“For a country full of pigs, its funny you (turks) don’t eat them”
garica@82;
I’m enjoying the whole thinhs. This “incident” will put an end to Turkey’s plans to join the EU. We don’t need those motherfuckers over here. Too fucking primitive.
turkeyisyummy@103;
tukey is pretty gay for doin this, why can’t they be a man and just accept they massacred the armenians??
oh wait..they’re not a man.shame
" is there something wrong with being gay, is this something you guys hate and use it insult other people.?
you guys are not only RACIST but also HOMOPHOBIC. i bet you think, there are not gays in Armenian community here or in your home country... that is sad
bc@111; fuk the dirty turks
I am not sure what your definition of racist or disturbing is but for most of us including my self that is very offensive and racist.
i am sorry i dont have time to read over 100 comments here but i am pretty sure there must be more.
you know one has to be fair here and i think, most of the comments are towards distorting the facts and taking the issue to something else other than what is being discussed here.
and dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with discussing things but when you are using something unrelated to support something else it shows that writer is desperate to come up with something.
i dont agree with Turkey bashing here. Turkey is a country that we relayed on for along time.
i am puzzled to see some of the comments here saying that Turkey stabbed us in the back etc. whatever. you know... you gotta be pretty hateful,cold and desperate to hope that by saying stuff like that that Americans will turn on Turkey.
it is a fact that Turkey didn't allow our troops to use their country and they were 100% right to do so. because this war was completely unnecessary.
They did the right thing by not supporting a war that created this mess that's why in this country now 75% of the people dont support the war.
also you guys forget " dont wanna admit" all the help they have been given us for decades as i mentioned before in Korea, Somalia, Bosnia, First Gulf War, Afghanistan, Iraq..
my dad fought shoulder to shoulder with Turks in Korea and he had nothing bad to say about them in fact he was proud to fight along Turks.
but you guys of course dismiss all this because your goal is to Turn people against Turkey.
never gonna happened.
if you guys care about our military and troops so much why bring this resolution now while we need Turkey's help more than ever in this mess.
i am sorry but i dont find your explanations sincere.
also in response to Mr. Buffyfan @78
"If I understand your logic, if a people react “so harsh” against something must mean that they are innocent? They continue to deny it because they have been successful; because they have never been held accountable!!"
I've never said that the person would be considered innocent. what i said was here in this country all suspects are innocent till proven guilty beyond any reasonable doubt and that person whether guilty or not will get his/her day in the court.that's how it works here in America we dont prejudge or sentenced people.
so,my point was if the entire Turkey reacts this symbolic resolution so strongly that means they deserve their day in the court.
i think, they should have a chance to have their say and make their case here to American people and let the people decide what happened.
you dont hear Germans reacting or saying anything about Holocaust you know why !!!! because it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it happened and it fits the definition of genocide.
i think., Armenian community have to realize that you have to convince Turks and make your case to them beyond any reasonable doubt as to what happened rather than taken up our congress time and money for something that has nothing to do with America
you know here in America 3000 miles away from your country.
i hope this resolution wont be brought to senate floor because it will only increase the racist attracts on Turks and Turkish-Americans here.
Hating someone because of their ethnicity, religion, color is called racism and that is something we dont tolerate and we dont need in this country.
Some missing info to all...
. Turkish public is angry to US not for this funny "genocide" stuff but killing of civilians and soldiers by terrorists in TR.
. These terrorrists are from a land (Iraq) controlled by US.
. It's been a year this problem exists and in the last month more than 30 people killed in TR.
. Since TR is US's puppy about "Global Terror" game, it was with US in many fronts (Afganistan, Lebanon, Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia, partly Iraq etc).
. People in TR thinks that we are with US in this game but they dont care about our game (or maybe US is supporting this)
. For some internal dynamics, TR was out of the game in Iraq and US lost other puppies (Poland, Korea, UK etc) in Iraq. Not because US needs them for military reasons but for showbizz reasons.
. Everyone in TR believes that millions of people died during WWI, if Armenian deaths called genocide than Turkish deaths also be called genocide because Turks also killed maybe more than Armenians.
. So the timing of US (Armenian bill) is perfect.
. Result: You can see TR in Iraq fighting in another front against "global terror" and "democracy" with his big bro US. This time with the support of TR public :)
Oh please, the US did not even recognise the Rwandan genocide when it happened.
Not to mention the US had no problems with leaving a fascist regime in Spain after WW2 (a regime that was aligned with Germany but 'neutral' in the war).
Or allow a right-wing dictatorship in Greece, a country that was 100% victim in the war.
Better then them falling into socialist hands, right?
How long did it take for the middle east to throw off the grip of the west after it was invaded by allied forces in WW2 to prevent it from *possibly* siding with Germany?
Note the *possibly*.
Every country did bad stuff, but why is there some kind of nation wide ignorance about the subject?
Do Americans really think being a citizen of the US makes them higher beings incapable of doing wrong?
Similar to the crusaders who would have no problems murdering people since all unbaptised people and children were heathens and bound for hell anyway?
That if god thought they were innocent they would not have been killed? i.e. if they were not insurgents they would not have been killed by the bombs fired from miles away.
"However, I think Rice made it clear that this is just bad timing on congresses part..."
Bad timing ? Yeah, I guess if America took the opportunity to recognize the Armenian Genocide WHEN IT HAPPENED, we wouldn't be having a "bad timing" issue. When it comes to doing what is right, there is no such thing as "bad timing". I mean, think about what we are talking about here: the systematic killings of 1.5 million people. As if the Armenians did not suffer enough, now lets DEBATE about weather or not we should recognize this atrocious act. I'd like for any of you to image your own race being targeted, with the intent to wipe out the entire population of that race, and then have someone tell you that "it never happened" or "Wow. We're really sorry but we just can't acknowledge this awful event because our current situation is more important than what happened to your ancestors".
Why are we even using Turkey as an airbase when America OWNS Iraq. Why not fly supplies directly into Iraq instead of making a pit sop in Turkey and taking a hop, skip, jump flight to Iraq. Makes no sense at all? has anyone heard of non-stop direct flights? I see no need for the U.S. to use Turkey airbases.
Ted @ 2:
oh one other thing...I can see why Mr. Bush is against recognizing the Armenian Genocide, because he's doing the same thing in Iraq, killing innocent kids, families, and civilians. Hitler relives in Bush.
How to stop soliders being killed: Get the "F" out of Iraq, send in a few snipers...wallah, done! But Bush's family interest in Oil is another thing. Bush comes from an oil tycoon family in Texas, imagine if he now controls Iraq's oil as well....wow.
The whole uproar over the recognition of the genocide thing is a game. The Armenian genocide should have been recognized long time ago. If the US had done that it would have been credible in Darfur and we could have perhaps avoided the Jewish Holocaust.
The US does not depend on Turkey, obviously it can fly to Iraq directly by not using Turkish air space.
But on the other the US need now to regain the moral high ground after the many snafus such as abu Graib.
Can you imagine US lending its moral ground to Turkey?
seatech1 @ 13:
Why are they bringing it up at this time? Well, lets see, it was brought forth many other times for YEARS, you know what the answer was? "It's not the right time." You know why Armenians want USA to recognize the genocide? So Turkey would pay to Armenia for what they have done. Turkey decided to "clean out their country" get rid of Christian Armenians, murdering 1.5 million people including children and women. It was not a "war" like Turkey claims, it was a genocide. If this would happen in our country, to your grandparents you would not be opposing this decision. If you knew nothing about your past because your parents have been killed in front of you when you were 4 just because they are Americans (I'm guessing you are American), you would be fighting to get this recognized. But you've never experienced this, have you? So don't say "It was over 90 years ago" because to this day people are suffering because of this.
This is why Armenians have been fighting so hard to get this acknowledged by the world and especially United States.
First of, Turkey is not really an ally, they hate U.S, the first chance they get they will screw U.S. so bad they wouldn't know what hit them. (It's already starting with them telling U.S. what to do about the genocide).
Second, they keep "loosing" their allies, they are like a two-year old child with a tantrum. "If I don't get my way, then there is no way!".
Who are you kidding? You are just a middle east third-world country, you need U.S. to be your ally, you need Europe to be on your good side.
Do yourself a favor and go to the library and get some books about the Armenian Genocide. By the way, Armenians are the oldest Christian nation in the entire world.
The price of appeasing Turkey is for America to lose its soul.
Watch the movie MIDNIGHT EXPRESS!
it's really great. It reveals the truth about pig turks
Hello everyone. I am proud to be a turk and I support democracy. It's about time we stopped playing games and started admitting the truth. The truth is that we Turks did commit a genocide and it is time to accept it and pay for the consequences of our poor actions.
American Pride.
We must join the European beliefs.
Let's admit that whatever happened in 1915 to Armenians was a GENOCIDE.
We are a Christian Nation found by a Christian. Why are we letting a muslim nation put us (America) on a leash? Nobody puts USA on a leash.
The Armenian Genocide must be recognized.
Keep in mind that Armenia was the first nation to accept Christianity. We are both brothers. We are both Christians. Let us do what Jesus Wants us to do. Wasn't it the MUSLIMS who BOMBED US ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001? WASN'T IT THEM? WHAT HAPPENED NOW? WHY ARE SOME AMERICANS ON THE MUSLIMS SIDE ALL OF A SUDDEN? WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR PRIDE? What is happening?
Read the bible kids.
It will cleanse your soul.
It will make you choose a right decision.
Thank You.
Read what DRACUL had written in 1400's! hail MARDUK
ACCEPT THE GENOCIDE
" All demons ride high upon the bewitching Nightsky
They are only disturbed by a new-born child's painful cry
Son of the great dragon, come forth to rule
In all your glory, no man, no beast will be as cruel
All the angels and the puny men of god looked away
Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day
Dracul come forth, and see your son's soul is powerful
Triumphantly holding his son, nothing could be as delightful
In our order you are now, for the sake of your greatness
You must murder the muslim turks in thousands, no less
Let them feel our never-ending wrath and our steel
We are men of god, so let them know it for real
It's our mission to seek our enemies, and kill them one by one
They must be destroyed in time, be sure to teach your new-born son
We must bath in the blood of the vermins, called turks, to win
The muslims are to be executed, for they live in great sin
Sultan Murad of the turks is getting more powerful each day
Dracul will not be one of them that for his mercy will pray
He must turn his back on his previous allies
And conspirate with the turks
Beware you all of the evil blood that in Dracul lurks
The holy Roman emperor will get angered with this
But Dracul must protect himself, it's a right of his
So feel the greedy claws of death, you weak men of god
Treacherous thoughts was the father of the berserker prince Vlad
(In the year of 1438)
Seven years of age is he and already in bloody war
His eyes do not turn away from all that death and gore
Father Dracul and brother Mircea are riding by his side
Proud he is of his warrior father, no matter he lied
Together with the turks, they ravaged through the land
Dragon and beast, devils and demons fighting hand-in-ha "
I've done some reading about the whole shebang of the genocide issue.
I have to say there are allot of information out there at the library,Internet etc.
and here is what found out....
first of all Turkey doesn't deny the killings of Armenians unlike you guys claim here what they are saying is whether the killings constitute a genocide during a war where the country was in a chaos.
that is the whole thing but the way you guys tell people here is that Turkey is denying the killings of Armenians. THAT IS WRONG
there were allot of Armenians that got killed during the WWl
but what was interesting was there were allot of if not more Turks and Kurds killed also
again from what heard from you guys gave me the impression that you guys were the only victim but in fact your ancestors killed allot of innocent people.hmmmm i wonder why you dont guys never mention that that is something you dont get to hear over here unless you really look in to the issue and read independent reports on the internet etc.
second is; i think, the whole controversy raises from not what happened during that war but whether what happened during that war fits the definition of a genocide.
genocide where there is a systematic government effort to exterminate certain group of people based on their race, religion etc.
there was no such attempt therefore i concluded the fact that what happened was not a GENOCIDE it was a war and that's what people do in wars... kill each other.
when you revolt against your own country
than you side with the enemy of your country because some guys promised you some land
than you start killing your neioubougr and innocent people because you wanna get the land.
but at the end you loose it and defeaded along with the enemy. i am not sure what Armenians expected Ottomans to do sit and wait to be massacred.
they did what anyone would do. they defended them self and their country.
here in this country we put over 100.000 Japanese-Americans in champs during the WWll and they hadn't even raised a finger against us.
you dont hear Japanese people going around and telling people that they were subjected to Genocide because it wasn't. it was a terrible to think to do and that will remain in our history as a sad remainder of what war does to people.
if you guys had done the same thing here in America you would've been treated the same way..killed in conflict.
i am saddened and shamed that you guys managed to deceived us and now we are in the processes of offending a great FRIEND and ALLY of this country just because of handful RACIST Armenian fanatics.
this is truly one of the worse thing that can happened the us... i still hope that resolution wont be brought to senate floor.
Ok, I think many of you are not looking at the entire picture here. First of all, as far as "right time", the right time should have been almost 90 years ago, right after it happened, unfortunately it wasn't recognized as a genocide then. If it didn't get recognized now, when should it have gotten recognized? All of you that are saying it's not the right time, how do you know when the right time will be, if you always wait for the right time, then it will never come.
Second of all, why in the world would Turkey become so angered by this if it did not happen? If it did not happen then there would not be soo many records. Do you ever hear of "Turkish survivors". No because, it was the Armenians who were killed on purpose. The people in Turkey are not educated about the Armenian genocide. That's not to say that there aren't Turks that do recognize it. There are many Turks that recognize it, but unfortunately they're in the minority. Now, if this really wasn't a genocide then why would Turks themselves admit that it was.
Third of all, it was a systematic killing of a certain ethnic group. The Armenians were forced to walk in the desert, were beat, raped and murdered. If they weren't murdered they died of starvation. Now please explain to me how this creates a war? There are still survivors who tell their accounts of the horrors. It is simply ignorant to say that it did not take place or that it was a war because it wasn't. Get your facts straight people.
Fourthly, has Turkey even been thaaat great of an ally. Yes we have bases there, but what about when the US invaded Iraq in 2003. Turkey did not support the war (although I think that was a good thing) and the US was only able to go in from the South, from Kuwait. Hence, Turkey has not been such an amazing ally as all of you make it out to be.
This is an issue of human rights people. Just because other genocides have not been recognized it does not make it right for this one not to be. I hope that people will continue to fight for the other genocides to be recognized as well. Such as the one going on at this moment in Darfur! Just because it happened a l"ong time ago" doesn't justify it not being recognized. Where are your sense of human rights people?
This is interesting;
[The Washington Post]
Armenians who need help today
Fred Hiatt from the Washington Post suggested that if the Armenian Diaspora had worked as hard for democracy in Armenia as it did for congressional recognition of the genocide Armenians suffered nearly a century ago, modern Armenia would be as democratic as modern Turkey.
There are passionate arguments on both sides of this fight: the urgency of facing history honestly, on one hand; unease over attempting to resolve such matters by political declaration, on the other, he explained. “ But what is sad, when members of Congress are hailing the vote as a victory for human rights, is how poorly human rights fare in Armenia today. The heads of both US organizations told me that their groups have worked, sometimes quietly, to promote human rights and civil society in Armenia. Undoubtedly their influence would be limited, no matter how hard they tried. But what if they had tried as fervently as they did to win Wednesday’s vote? It’s hard not to think that 3 million Armenians might be less poor and more free than they are today,” he noted.
16.10.2007
From Eric above:
"Fred Hiatt from the Washington Post .."
Lol Fred Hiatt is channeling the Antisemites, and the Protocals of the Elders of Zion!".
Plug in the alternative text:
Why don't the those Jews in America do something about Israel's poor human rights violations instead of whining about the Holocaust? There human rights report after report abut violations of rights in Israel.
.
Eric is an idiot. lol
haha a complete lunatic prick If you please.
You obviously have not done your research as well as I have. I know many Armenians and study the history.
The Armenian Genocide was NOT A WAR.
IT HAPPENED BEFORE WW1
The Armenians did not do anything to cause this Genocide. It was what the Ottoman turks wanted and did. To wipe out an entire nation.
Of course they failed
It is pricks like you who are calling it a war. It was NEVER part of any war.
Go read some more before you humiliate yourself.
Erica or Eric wrote
lmfao
survivor of what? survivor of being a dumb ass murderor?? lmao haha
Basically the muslims hated the Christians.
What they don't tell the people is that they threatened the Armenians ( Christians ) to either convort to muslim or die as a Christian.
how DISGUSTING is that?
Imagine, there had been many many incidents where a turkish soldier stabbed a pregnant lady in her womb and as the soldier pulled out his sword, the baby came out along with it. Some were blinded by holding the eyes open towards the sun till their pupils just burnt. Many were stabbed and humiliated in front of families. Young girls were raped in front of their loved ones. Men were horribly butchered like cows. The sea had turned red from all the blood. CHURCHES were burned down to the floor while innocent children and women were packed inside. The turks ate and drank in front of the starving nation while they had burning corpse to eat just to survive. You either drank your sisters blood or ate your brothers fucking liver just to survive. This is just some of the MANY MANY stories that happened in 1915 to the Armenians.
That's horrible.
As an American and a Christian, I better see some action and hope the Genocide gets recognized. WE THE PEOPLE have the power. Let us all stand up and do something about it. Why not join the rest of the world and admit the truth?
What would Jesus do?
Armenians are Christians. They died with the belief of Christianity.
Let us not be liars and burn in hell one day.
Let us admit the truth and pray for the fellow Christians who were massacred.
you guys are all ignorant for saying this is not the right time
To Eric...you are an ignorant bastard. I bet you are the type of guy who blames a woman for being raped!
<i am saddened and shamed that you guys managed to deceived us and now we are in the processes of offending a great FRIEND and ALLY of this country just because of handful RACIST Armenian fanatics.
If you were at all scholarly, you would realize that books by Armenians describe genocide. Most books by Turks claim it was all just lives lost during war. If you read a book by a Turkish scholar you will see that it was GENOCIDE. Try this book: From Empire to Republic: Turkish Nationalism and the Armenian Genocide by Taner AkCam.
My husband's grandfather was orphaned at 8 years old...he heard his mother and sisters being shot by Turkish military right after he was handed off to a Kurdish family. I have to tell you, that even with the pain of such loss, denial, and never being able to trace a family tree we are still friends with many Turkish people here in the United States...all of which openly admit their countries atrocities.
To Eric, who did some "research", honestly whatever you rea don the internet could clearly have been biased. You say "genocide where there is a systematic government effort to exterminate certain group of people based on their race, religion etc. there was no such attempt therefore i concluded the fact that what happened was not a GENOCIDE"
1. Armenians know the definition of Genocide, you're not clearly up any wacky misconception. No one with a brain read that and said "ohhhh! a SYSTEMATIC effort! God, we've been wrong about this for 90yrs, thanks for opening our eyes Eric!!!!" Educated people know what Genocide is, surviviors confirm it, historians as well. The killing was 100% systematic and undeniably qualifies as Genocide.
2. You concluded it wasn't Genocide huh? Well who the hell ARE you? Cause no one is impressed with your research, or blatant lack there of. I'd like to sit you down with a room full of the few remaining survivors and let you listen to their stories, then see if you could convince them about your little "conclusion".
Give me a break.
you guys are ignorant!
There were some of the things that were said:
"Can’t they find some other meaningless thing to do that doesn’t piss off another country."
"Genocide = To wipe out an entire nation."
"Turks don't deny the killing, but rather it wasn't a genocide"
Well, if you were an Armenian you would understand this isn't a pointless and meaningless bill. EVERY April 24, millions of Armenians take part in on a march. The march lasts for hours, in very high temperatures, but WE ALL DO IT, including grandparents who can barely move. In fact, most of our elders finish the entire march because it's so important to them, considering their parents were the FEW survivors.
First off, if you understood the magnitude of what happened you might see what my people feel. Have u ever heard the stories from the survivors? Have u ever seen the movie that came out in theaters (at least in parts of CA) that regarded this? How would you have felt if you were hiding from the Turks with your 2 children aside you and a Turk came up to you with a gun pointed at your head and said to pick one of your children to live...and within seconds just shoots both of your children? Or how about if your a little 6 year old boy, hiding under your bed, listening to Turks rape your mother and sisters and within minutes kill them. Do you understand how many little kids or even adults had their ENTIRE family killed? You had nothing left to live for. Imagine your mother, father, aunt, uncle, cousins, siblings, and so on. Now imagine them all gone, HOW THE F*CK WOULD YOU FEEL!?!? Well that's what happened to nearly every Armenian, so don't sit there and say this wasn't a genocide or that it's a meaningless bill.
Yes I do understand the situation we are in. But what message are we sending if we dont' accept the bill? We would just be surrendering what the US has been known to stand for. How can we change now and say morality isn't important. We would be surrendering under Turkey's power. Bush is a dooshbag, he doesn't know anything. I don't really turn to Bush because it's the morons in his cabinet that advise him on what to say. He's just another stupid puppet.
The people against the bill consist of self-ish people. Why? Because all you care about is YOURSELF and the higher gas prices that may result. Get over it, if Turks are even serious about it then big-woop. Save an extra $30-40 bux a month. Are you telling me thats that big of a hardship on your ass? Better yet, start walking more.
When you see the Armenians get angry here, you must understand where that anger comes from. For 92 years, the children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide have lived with an overbearing sense of sadness and guilt. That sadness and guilt stems not only from the misery forcibly imposed upon us by the Turks when they murdered almost our entire nation. It is born also from the fact that from the very day the Turks began to carry out this evil plan, they began denying it. They have become experts at revisionist history, creating all kinds of lies including the ones espoused by Eric above. The guilt in particular come from a sense that we owe this to our murdered dead ancestors. Most of the Armenians who live in the Diaspora live here because our parents and grandparents were survivors. Ask any Armenian you know whether they live in the US, Europe, Canada, Israel, Iran, Lebanon if they are the descendents of Armenian Genocide survivors and they will tell you, "Yes." We owe those murdred and survivor relatives a honest reading of their history.
You will read above about the horrors inflicted upon the Armenians by the Turks. The stories are true. Look on the internet and see the recordings of the survivors. These are people in their 90s from across the world. They all tell the same story. Are you suggesting, Eric, that all of these senior citizens got together and hatched this fabricated tale? For this wasn't only a Turkish plot to move the Armenians. The rapes, the beheadings, the lighting of churches and homes on fire with the intention of burning down all those crowded inside. These things happened. This is a classic and horrid case of Man's Inhumanity to Man. "How could the Turks do this to their fellow man?", you may ask. Armenians have been asking themselves this same question for 92 years just like I am sure the survivors of any genocide or the Holocaust ask themselves.
Please know that these charges do not stem from a few Armenian eye-witness accounts alone. Genocide scholar after genocide scholar has declared the events of 1915 to be a Genocide. Indeed, the International Conference of Genocide Scholars designates this a Genocide. Take a look at UT*BE and look for Andrew Goldberg's documentary that aired on PBS last year where he includes actual footage of Rafael Lemkin, the Polish Jew who coined the word Genocide, state that he created the word in part to describe what had happened to the Armenians. Look at Elie Weisel's writings and see that he too calls this Genocide. Buy Robert Morganthau's book from Amazon. He was the US Ambassador to Turkey in 1915 and he provides a first hand account of what he saw. Read his telegrams back the US Congress and President where he describes what he is witnessing as "Race Extermination." Read Turkish scholar Tanner Ackam's book, A Shameful Act. Ackam, a Turk, actually researched the closed Turkish archives and substantiated his use of the label Genocide with TURKISH documents from the period.
Perhaps Eric should try those sources and he would come to a different conclusion. Although he probably won't since I would be willing to bet that his nationality is Turkish and he is not yet willing to admit the truth.
I have no idea where u copy-pasted this info but which SEA you are talking about? You probably saw these things in your dream and have mixed toughts from the times of Moses. Why you put all these LIES here as if they were the realities.
Imho, Armenian diaspora cartel still wants your money and wants you to be together. Why noone is talking about Armenians living in Turkey as citizens? and why noone is talking how poor the people in Armenia? and why noone is talking about 100.000 illegal workers from Armenia in Turkey?
There is only one reason; diaspora cartel in fact doesnt care about Armenians but the money and the way they behave is a good way to keep money pooring in to the cartel.
TimothyObay @ 136:
Gee, it's great that we support a country in the region that not only threatens our troops (after we're paying them the money they demanding to use their base, remember?) but is a racist supremacist country to start with.
You can go to prison in Turkey for publicly speaking a minority language. You can go to prison for saying that there was an Armenian genocide. You can go to prison for publishing a book in Kurdish.
Is this what "our troops" are fighting for in the region? To sweep a little jihad under the rug (of 1.5 million people)?
CLICK HERE href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21253084/">
AND VOTE YES!
( It's funny when the NO votes go higher when it is night time in USA. Obviously citizens in turkey are all gathering up and voting no )
THIS IS FOR U.S. CITIZENS ONLY. LET'S FIGHT THE TRUTH.
LET'S ADMIT THE GENOCIDE REALLY HAPPENED.
VOTE YES!
CLICK HERE http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21253084/
AND VOTE YES!
If you are a true Christian and wish to support our fellow Christians who were massacred. Then have a heart and VOTE YES at:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21253084/
It was the muslims who massacred the Christian Armenians!
AND IT WAS The MUSLIMS who attacked us on 9/11!
What will happen next?
We MUST stop this from happening. We must make a difference.
VOTE YES!
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