Countdown: Feinstein & Schumer Fold - DoJ Official Pushed Out For Calling Waterboarding Torture
By Logan Murphy Friday Nov 02, 2007 8:36am
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On Friday's Countdown Keith Olbermann talked to Newsweek's Richard Wolfe and Former Nixon White House Counsel, John Dean, about Senators Feinstein and Schumer's inexcusable caving on President Bush's Attorney General nominee and an ABC News report that claims former acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin was forced out of the DoJ when he declared waterboarding to be torture -- after allowing himself to be waterboarded.
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What'll give one a strong incentive to lie, especially if you have a family, and obligations, is getting fired if you tell the truth.
This Bush guy, 'One heckuva job he's doing, ain't it?'
Is it time for a National Moratorium to stop these idiots?
I continue to cry for my country. I simply do not understand the caving in over and over to a Pres. who is already felt to be the worst ever.
waterboard Mukasey!!!
good enuff for levin, good enuff for mukasey.
next schumer and feinstein.
Why?
They don't know if its torture, so like levin did, they need to learn first hand..
Assistant A.G. volunteers to get waterboarded. Says its torture. Gets fired.
There is a fundamental disagreement on what this country can do. Stress positions, temperature extremes, and sleep deprrivation is what is trotted out as "enhanced" techniques, what really happens behind closed doors progresses to something much worse anyway.
A little torture always leads to alot of torture.
Schumer and Feinstein fold like lawn chairs and reward Bush for his 3rd grade temper tantrum.
Way to go.
America is now the Torture Nation.
-GSD
I say we waterboard Schumer and Feinstein to see if they still don't think waterboarding is torture.
Bush's New Plan: OUTSOURCE WATERBOARDING TO DISNEY WATER PARK
this is fucking stupid. they are arguing over whether to call it torture or not?? they need to asking the simple question, "is this something you want them doing to american troops if captured?" or how about "how would you want american POWs treated?" or how about "who would jesus torture?"
this is really sickening
"acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin was forced out of the DoJ when he declared waterboarding to be torture — after allowing himself to be waterboarded."
Obviously its not torture. If it was, and this guy was waterboarded, he would have said anything they wanted him to, specifically, that waterboarding isn't torture.
duncanidho @ 4:
Perfect!
The fact that the United States has prosecuted and convicted war criminals of waterboarding seems to be moot to these assholes. I watched Rich Lowry on the News Hour say its not after being presented with that fact. Quibbling about the degree or how its done is like saying - well the rapist used a condom, so how bad can it be.
How can there be controversy about something thats in the books as torture.
I know the thinking by Schumer and Feinstein is Bush will make a recess appointment without congressional review. If you won't hold him accountable for his lawlessness, who will. If I were him, I'd hold a daily press conference just to insult congress.
I shake my head and wonder what's happening to this country - what's being ALLOWED to happen - and why we no longer have an opposition party. We have become a nation of docile, gutless imbeciles who allow a rogue administration to redefine what America means for their own gain. What is going on here? Is it really this easy to stage a coup of America? Apparently so. We're spitting in the face of everyone who ever fought and died for what we used to believe in.
Do we need any further proof that a two-party system does not work?
I do not believe Schumer or Feinstein are the least bit conflicted about waterboarding, nor are they executing some brilliant strategy to 'save' the American people from an interim AG appointment that would be worse than Mukasey.
I truly believe they are being opportunistic politically-power hungry parasites, at the expense of future victims of waterboarding (foreign or native) and assisting in the long-term degradation of our national reputation.
duncanidho @ 4:
===============
Honestly, without snark, I agree with you. If these higher-ups have the brass balls to stand up and utter such a brazen LIE to the American people then they do deserve to be waterboarded. These people are the worst kind of traitors! Jail Feinstein and Schumer for treason!!!
I'm so sick of the Democratic leaders behaving JUST LIKE Republicans! Why are they giving Bush everything he demands?!? We need Congressional leaders who will DO THEIR JOBS and "stand nose to nose" with these monsters in the White House, but we have instead a bunch of ineffectual weak-kneed pussies who are giving the WORST PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY everything he wants. I say we totally clean house in 2008, voting out all but a handful of the members of Congress, people who did the right thing, like Jim Webb who seems to have voted with his conscience. Obama seems to have a good voting record too, but does anyone know about Kucinich's voting record?
Schumer and Feinstein and Mukasey-I bet when the Demoes get elected 2008 they will keep Mukasey as Attorney General--just so that 911 never gets light of day.
Notice the the 3 amejoos have something in comman that is infesting America ?
[refers to deleted post]
Sue @ 3:
I believe the answer would be extortion. Everybody in D.C. works and lives under a dagger suspended by a string and the WarPigs are holding the scissors, ready to cut that at string if someone doesn't play nice with them. If you tell on me, I'll tell on you. If you don't let me do this, I'll kick the shit out of you. The Bush Administration are big bullies treating our Government, the country and the world like a playground which they run. Of course, that's the way politics have always been, right?
san francisco, feinstein. no longer can anyone in that beautiful liberal city look at conn. and ask how lieberman could get elected. feinstein deserves the chance to explain herself, everyone deserves that, but in the absence of a plausible explanation or any explanation, the good people of san fran need to take action. she needs to be made aware that her actions in this instance were without merit and they fall in line with support of the deviants and crooks who currently run our government. How could she???
I read somewhere, recently, that most of our 'enhanced interrogation techniques' come from a manual originally designed to help captured soldiers and spooks deal with Soviet methods. Granted, a lot of this stuff was perfected by the Inquisition...another excellent role model to be sure. But Stalinism is where its really at. We have become the Evil Empire.
Don Rumsfeld probably has a bumper sticker that says WWSD.
We know that a great many of us do not approve of this behavior. Yet when the Democrats go along with it, as readily as they do, a foreigner would be hard pressed to actually believe that a good many of us disagree. All the facts point to us being even lower than most of the world thought to begin with.
It certainly seems as though there is a rogue nation in need of regime change and peacekeeping troops, along with IMF and World Bank bailout loans tied to government transparency initiatives. We have met the enemy...and he is us.
Let's take a vote . . . is ANYONE surprised? If so, then I suggest you are a prime target for that Nigerian email scam and better watch out.
[Off Topic-Sitemonitor]
Terrible @ 2:
It's time for a national general sit-down strike and total work/travel/school/shopping stoppage. Now.
Before ANYONE has a serious discussion on the effects of waterboarding and arguing the legality of its use, is it not farcical to begin with that this former assistant was not called as a witness or this video presented beforehand with the intent of informing Mukasey of its effects? It's all a formality. There is no real scrutiny in the process and if there becomes any its quickly hushed, like Daniel Levin can tell you. Those lone voices in government know they dont have the votes and safely play the "good cop" role so well (some of them, anyway) while the torture train rolls on, right off the tracks.
A country that invades other countries illegally and tortures its citizens. Thats what we are. And thats what we've been.
Good point #19. We were warned what would happen when San Francisco libruls took over.
Look at what it got us...
The Republicans have shown themselves to be monsters for allowing this conduct.
The Democrats have shown themselves to be useless for not being able to stop it.
Sue @ 3:
You have never heard of Senator Wellstone? Dead. Along with his wife, daughter, staff and pilots. Because one week before he had the guts to face down Cheney. Dead. Because he was a man of courage. Dead. Get a clue, please: the entire Congress is terrified of cheneybush psychopaths. Only the people can overturn this dictatorship. Only the people can bring this regime to its knees, arrest the guilty, indict/try them. And execute the traitors, every goddam one.
Is it possible for the San Francisco voters to hold an emergency recall election like the one California held that got Schwartzenegger elected in mid-term? I say hold recall elections for Feinstein AND Pelosi! They sold us out!! The gallows are a fate too good for these devil spawn! And just so you all know, Hillary will be elected. And she'll take the time to squash our little blog-based revolution so that we can return to the age of Corporate Rule.
Jeff @ 9:
Well said and the other comments were also intelligently stated. A senator [perhaps Whitehouse?] should set up a screen in that committee room and roll the film of that volunteer being waterboarded and ask Mukasey point blank if he would think it would be torture if he was the one being waterboarded. This is the question that begs to be asked. After seeing that person in the film on Olbermann's show being waterboarded, it simply defies belief how any rational, intelligent person can claim that that procedure does not merit the definition of torture. Mukasey has sold his soul in order to achieve power while Democrats like Schumer and Feinstein have lost their credibility by giving in to Bush and not fighting for the humanity [at least what is left of it] of the Democratic party.
This tortue issue is going the way it did in Nazi Germany. As I understand it, the Nazis were very good at calling obvious torture methods something else entirely so that there would be no problem employing those methods at a later date. Anyone that pointed out the obvious were removed.
Feinstien's Husband (Richard Blum) is involved in a company that gets no bid military contracts from the bush administration for reconstruction in Iraq. As chairperson and ranking member of the Military Construction Appropriations subcommittee (MILCON) from 2001 through the end of 2005, Feinstein supervised the appropriation of billions of dollars a year for specific military construction projects. She made sure to look out for her own interests IE lots of money for her husbands company. She is the personification of the term War profiteer so it's no suprise that she would screw the people of this country and align herself with likes of these criminals and theives... she is one too. Tough talking democrat that votes like a republican Ass-Kisser. Schumer should know better but it appears he is voting for this guy because he is a fellow New Yorker. I smell a rat! I think there is more to schumers vote than meets the Eye. These people are so thouroghly corrupt and morally bankrupt it's hard to even support a democrat anymore as they more and more seem to dance to the corporate masters and align themselves with the Bush/Cheney Disaster. We need a third party .. Aprty of the people!!
Countries dead.
Stick a fork in it.
I wonder how long it will take to slide into irrelevancy?
A year? Two?
I'm guessing it'll be pretty quick judging by how fast we fell to this sad state.
See ya all later, it's not safe to post any more.
Jeff @ 9:
Agreed. A more frightening thought is would they torture or put people in prison for having opposing political views here in the United States? That could be the next step to the Bush Administration's plans.
As George Carlin said recently on Keith Olberman's "Countdown", "This country is toast!"
It was a great country for 230 years...................
Ah yes, again and again he says like Rainman,
The dems "caved".
Hahahahahaha....
Keep it up caveman...hahahahaha
why don't they have an exhibition in the Senate...LIVE....and broadcast it across the country.....then have a vote on it ..and broadcast the vote Live as well..if they're trying to make the world scared of us..they've failed.The world is Disgusted!
Wag @ 37:
What are you laughing about, it's the Repugs that have killed this nation.
Hope you like Banana Republics clownshoe, cause that's what you got.
m.ellis @ 23:
yeah but who does that hurt? school?... work? ...shopping?@$%#
how about not payin that income tax this year? ...or is the IRS too scary?
time to take a real stand.
I don't believe that Schumer and Feinstein are planning to give a thumbs up on this guy just because they're all Jewish...I do believe, however, that the AIPAC has reminded them of their commitments that have resulted in all the damn money they've been given over the years. So you see, it's not just their common religious beliefs, it's because they're also on the 'take'. In fact, I believe that every decision that a Democrat makes - Jewish or no - that is in support of bushco is driven by the money they receive from AIPAC and the threat of being labeled 'anti-semitic' along with the subsequent ridicule from a MSM that also has religious and financial ties to Israel.
Face it, if we don't start calling a spade a spade when it comes to who's calling the shots, we're totally doomed.
Feinstein is a Bush Democrat. I watch C-SPAN. She doesn't care what California thinks AT ALL.
She was just re elected last year. When she is up for election again she will be 80 and she will probably retire.
Californians email her and tell her we are on to her.
Glenn Greenwald (constitutional attorney) wrote an article about her on Common Dreams. He said the same thing only he didn't say anything about writing her.
Move on? Their goddamn duty is to work like the assemble line workers have done ford decades, like the American workers do today, through f*****g repetition, doing the f******g same thing every day, simply protecting the Constitution, not moving on and leaving it in shatters!!!
Anyway, been to a pharmacy store today, a young bit drunk lady in late teens was buying a few chocolate bars, cigarettes, asked for an ID, she proudly presented it with a credit card. A pharmacy store!! which as movies like Sicko show, in other nations sells medications and drugs. Here in the US, it sell that in a corner and stuff that kills you everywhere else. Now why would a young American like that wanted to vote for Hillary, Gulianni, Bush, Feinstein or their ilk. Why shouldn't she be granted a right to vote for Kuchinich, Obama, Ron Paul. If there is hope to change this bloody, soulless capitalist American system that has been set up to screw the people in such a grand, sophisticated manner, decisions like yesterday by the ruling Democrats kill that hope completely.
Symes @ 39:
You're absolutely right Symes...it is ONLY the Repugs. The dems had NOTHING to do with it. Hahahahahaha....you're brainwashed dude.
You should come to the conclusion that BOTH "sides" have destroyed this country, it wasn't just one or the other. The reason? They both like big government. You must admit, of course either group has different ideologies about specifically what should be expanded, like either military abroad, spying at home, watchdog groups at home or welfare abroad, or one side starts a war, and the other side promises that if elected they will stop the war, but when they were elected they don't...it doesn't matter what government agency or group specifically is being advocated for expansion. Both "sides" have completely and utterly forgotten about us American voters. Both sides are not doing what they are being elected to do.
You can play sides if you want, but it's like playing sides if Hitler is fighting Stalin.
I wouldn't side with any of them just because they are the only ones fighting. I would get BOTH out of the way.
Feinstein is my Senator, so I emailed her and asked when she's going to officially change party affiliation. She's been acting like a GOPer for some time now, and that's not why she was elected by Democrats. I didn't vote for her in the primary last election, but anyone running against her had no chance unless there was a massive grassroots movement to expose her corruption. She has more money than God, so she can easily propagate the propaganda to make herself look like a reasonable Democrat.
Look at the bright side. We'll be able to waterboard Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest in a little over a year to collect evidence for their trials.
What the hell is wrong with these people?
Have Feinstein and Schumer been bought and paid for or what???
Wag @ 44:
Not brainwashed clown shoe, very much on top of it.
Both side have and ARE destroying the nation.
But it takes a Repug to spend like a drunken sailor, and that has been true for 30+ years now.
Spying, war abroad, and cutting social programs? Repugs have no peers.
The Dems are just enablers, and are guilty because of it.
But don't be a disingenuous clown, these are PNAC policies in place right now, not DLC.
I agree about both getting pushed out, but that isn't going to happen anymore. That dogs been buried by now.
Like I said, it's over.
Game set match, we are a Fascist Corporatocracy in fact. We just haven't come right out to name it publicly yet.
Play side, no. I won't bother. They both suck.
But I have noticed that the Dems at least use a condom and pretend to reach around when they screw us.
Less than a dimes difference, but better than flat out getting punched while getting raped.
It may be OT, but what happened to the question: Is the president above the rule of law? Did Mucusey answer that and I missed it, or has that issue been completely sidelined? Seems to me if the right whiners and syncophants are uncomfortable with the definition of torture issue because it will result in charges against people who were "just following orders" (not a 'good' reason to cave on the WB issue, but reality is what it is (shades of Nuremburg notwithstanding)), they could still reject his nomination on the grounds of holding the CinC above the law in any circumstance. Or did I miss something?
Ah yes, DirtyDawg is probably right... could be AIPAC.
f the sellouts who are voting to confirm this pirck.
"torture is senseless violence, born in fear... torture costs human lives but does not save them. We would almost be too lucky if these crimes were the work of savages: the truth is that torture makes torturers."- Jean Paul Sartre
I'll bet if we water-boarded Bush, it would only take a few seconds for him to confess that the first name of the 'god' he converses with is 'DickHead'.
The torturer-in-chief is drunk on power and the democrats gave him a barrel of his favorite brew: the power to torture at will. First, the enemy, then us. If we can't stop torture now, forget about what tomorow will bring. We are serfs owned by the state. His smirk is nothng more than the kiss of pain. We have become our enemy.
Wag @ 44:
I agree with your statement. There are many, and I am one, that believe the U.S. is heading for single party rule and that party could eventually be ruled by a dictator. The actions of the Democrats on this issue just reinforces that belief.
Jeff @ 9:
I've been saying it for years
as soon as there are americans captured
bush will pay a high price for his torture policies
not to mention the captured US soldiers
heh...
Isome @ 15:
Schumer and Feinstein are perfect examples of the failure of leadership in this country and why the public's trust in Congress is virtually zero. They had an opportunity to join their colleagues like Chris Dodd in a courageous stand for principle but instead caved in and call it "pragmatic politics." It is not. It is shameful cowardice.
They have now proven that the best they can do is give lip service to principled leadership, and when time comes to make a stand---they run for cover and congratulate themselves on the nice pragmatic compromise they formed. Compromise indeed---compromise of the fundamental principles our country was founded on, which to them can be violated on a situational basis. Good thing they were not with our Founding Fathers in 1776. We would have had three Benedict Arnolds to deal with instead of one.
Ruthless People @ 17:
I disagree.
Lieberman doesn't wait for the push to come to a shove -- he's actually doing the pushing and shoving. (See Lieberman/Kyl Amendment)
"You must fight this with every ounce of energy you possess. Because in the end, you will find that this torture is NOT about intelligence gathering, or ticking bombs or any other such nonsense. It is a talisman. A talisman of power. A government that can torture and do it with impunity can do anything. No law stands in its way. The very idea of the rule of law crumbles into dust. It means brutal tyranny."
zenrage @26 summed it all up in two sentences - there is no opposition to Bush. (And people wonder why he smirks.)
I think Cheney/Bush love this public discussion of their mean, nasty tactics - they're probably in the oval office right now exchanging high fives. For, as we're all ruminating on what is and isn't torture, they just keep on doing whatever they want: breaking dozens of other laws, gutting the Constitution, stealing our treasure, and invading foreign nations causing the deaths and maiming of hundreds of thousands of innocents, not to mention our own sons and daughters.
We need to keep our collective eye on the ball here. I abhor torture, but I abhor war and the possibility of continuous war or nuclear war even more. The Congress should stop wasting time. Every minute they spend arguing about the minutiae is another minute that Cheney/Bush are tearing apart the very fabric of our nation.
They need to be impeached, tried, convicted and then maybe waterboarded (just a little) before being stuffed into nice little cells in Guantanamo until they roast. The fact that they haven't been certainly indicates that our entire government has been bought and paid for (or blackmailed and threatened) and that the public has no representation or voice, save a few lone courageous folks who still speak out (Kucinich, Leahy (sometimes), Feingold (what happened to him?) etc.
Maybe Keith Olbermann should start a nightly segtment on his show: Top Three Reasons for Impeaching/Convicting" Cheney, Bush and other members of our governing bodies!!
Note to Senator Feinstein. As a San Franciscan, I have voted for you in every election you have been in. From city Supervisor to Senator. NO MORE! You have caved in to the Bush White House and I am ashamed of you. I shall support anyone who runs against you in the future. I think your actions have cost you many votes. How can you support this right-wing thinking? You are a disgrace to liberals.
Erroll @ 28:
Great idea. Not just for the committee, but for the entire Senate and House. And do it on C-SPAN so the whole country can see exactly what Mukasey -- and enablers like Schumer and Feinstein -- thinks is acceptable.
Roll the tape, then call for a vote.
Why are all of surprised that the Democrats folded again? The Democrats designate a few Democrats on each committee to cave in to the Bush administration's wishes while making it appear as if "most of them" actually "oppose Bush." This time the lambs in the Democratic Party were Dianne Feinstein & Chuck Schumer, who have relatively safe seats regarding re-election aspirations. The next committee on some important issue another Democrat or two will be designated to cave in to the Bush administration's wishes while the majority will appear to be opposed, in order to pacify Democratic Party voters who also cave in to the party at election time as well. Keep voting for the Democratic Party as it is presently operates but do not be surprised any longer when they fold and cave to the whims of the Bush administration.
Yes, the Democrats are complicit in a big way to the torture policies of the Bush administration. Its up to the electorate to vote such people out of office, unless you keep wondering why the result is not different than your own personal wishes. How many times can you keep knocking your head against a concrete wall and expect different outcomes when they are continually the same--which is caving in to the Bush administration?
Being shocked at this point is sort of pretentious-and yes, I am talking about the spineless Democrats who continue to show no political courage!
All my e-mails from blue anything or dem anything are unsubscribed.
m.ellis @ 22:
Our consumerist culture, fueled by the wealth class has gotten the middle class so mired in debt that even a short detour away from the status quo would put many into bankruptcy. This isn't a coincedence. If we were to put our energy into fixing this government to the extent that it deserves our energy, it would take a protracted fight. This is not a fight that suburbanites are prepared to fight. They are too busy getting the little ones to soccer practice, going to work, paying the two gigantic car payments, the gigantic house payment. I'm not saying they are right. But they are terrified of rocking the boat. If they do, they might find themselves losing their iPhones or the other countless stupid things people buy nowadays ... let alone the fact that it is not acceptable to miss an episode of American Idol or Survivor.
So, I'm afraid we're just screwed if we have to rely on the American people as we have in the past.
[deleted - over the top]
Me email to the honorable Sen. Feinstein:
I have read your 'apologia' in defense of supporting Michael Mukasey for Attorney General of the United States. Your statement, "He is not Alberto Gonzolez", tells me that you have lowered the bar for this appointment. How could you cave in to this president, again? You do remember that you represent the citizens of California, right? This is a sad day, one among many, for this country. We invade a country that was no threat to us, we allow torture (thanks to you), we spy on our own citizens, we suspend habeus corpus, we allow contractors (mercenaries) to be above the law - any law, whether it's military, US or Iraqi; no wonder our standing in the world is so low. Whatever good you have done in your political life will now be overshadowed and you will forever be known as the senator who defends torture. If you go through with this vote, it will be a well deserved legacy. I wish you would represent me, your constituant, but that seems too much to ask. I am ashamed that you are my senator. I am ashamed for you. Thankfully, this is your last term. Hopefully, we will be able to undo the harm you have done to my country when you are out of office. I only wish you were up for reelection in the next cycle so I could vote against you, my stand being "Whoever he is, at least he is not Dianne Feinstein".
Bitch.
People torture people because they enjoy it. They will rationalize ticking bombs etc. but that is never the real reason.
I think more and more people are going to start saying screw the system, i'm going to do my own thing.
And in the end, those are the people who are going to have the courage to rebuild what is being destroyed.
Jerry @ 17:
I know politics has never been pretty but it just seems out of hand at this point in our history.
I understand what you say but at the same time I still ask why does it continue?
For sure this tells me no to Hillary and No to Rudy. I want someone that will not stay the same or take us back 8 years where the divisiveness of this country will just continue.
It doesn't matter to me what the US does anymore. I've decided there's no way I would ever demean or risk my freedom by going there.
Filthy Harry @ 10:
Priceless ! Which "pundit" will appear on Fox and repeat this exact train of logic with a straight face ? I bet Kristol .
Indigowatcher @ 27:
this absolutely has to be explored. our own have to get the message that regardless of which side of the aisle they sit, if they support bush and his policies and his appointments then a price needs be paid. IMPEACH NOW.
Maybe we can can a new swearing in ceremony for the AG -- public waterboarding of the candidate with a declaration of non-torture once its over.
fuck... what IS this country coming to?
George Bush is the kinda guy you get told to have a beer with and you better like.
Schumer, Feinstein and Liberman. Oye vey y'all.
Big Dan @ 34:
No it was not....................eg. slavery, lynching, torture, war, civil rights oppression, dual justice system, racism, sexism, etc etc
Sue @ 68:
I think perhaps that liberals have just gotten lazy. When compared to the right wing that is. The right wing can organize a boycott with precision and strike fear into the target. The right wing has built a brutally effecient grass-roots apparatus to vote their candidates into office at every level of government. The right wing does not in-fight to their own detriment and loss of election after election.
The left used to have an effect on policy ... I just don't see it anymore. I'm not just talking about elected officials, but more relevantly about us.
[Deleted. Advocating torture-Sitemonitor]
Filthy Harry @ 10:
If they had asked him while he was being waterboarded I'm sure he would have.
[Refers to deleted post-Sitemonitor]
[Refers to deleted post-Sitemonitor]
Are the Dem congress only going to be fully happy when they can point to everyone and his/her dog being disgusted with their spinelessness? Or once their approval rating goes into the negative percentile? Or whichever comes last?
[Refers to deleted post-Sitemonitor]
The laws are not there for the easy decisions. The laws are there for the tough ones. Doing the right thing during peace time is a no brainer. Doing the right thing during war time is the true test. Just because the enemy commits heinous crimes, are we supposed to adopt their methods? What's next? Do we coerce young Americans to go over to Muslim countries and blow themselves up in crowded markets and embassies? Is that the direction in which we're headed?
Torture is wrong. Period. As a nation, we subscribe to the Geneva Convention and should practice what we preach. Debating whether torture gets results is semantics. Whether you call it waterboarding (so it sounds like some water sport) or Chinese water torture, it is still a disgusting practice and something Americans don't do. That's what sets us apart from them. We don't do it. Or didn't until the Village Idiot had two elections stolen for him.
That Schumer caved on this basic issue is anathema to me and should be to every other American. I used to think, since he was my representative, that he represented me as well. Now I know how little value he puts on the support of his constituents, and now I know how to vote the next time his name is on the ballot.
Welcome to the U.S.S.A
J.C. @ 13:
Exactly how I feel. What have we become as a nation to allow this? All the men and women who died in the defense of liberty are weeping for us.
[Refers to deleted post-Sitemonitor]
m.ellis @ 22:
I just watched The United States vs John Lenon the other night. When they had the scene about the bed-in that sounded like a great idea. Just stay in bed until this national nightmare is over. Afraid I'll have to take to the streets instead though. A nation general strike is a great idea if the people would wake up and do it.
[Refers to deleted post-Sitemonitor]
Despite waterboarding concerns, the Senate should CONFIRM the judge.
http://osi-speaks.blogspot.com/2007/11/despite-reservations-about.html#l...
Feinstein has no credibility. She needs to be removed from office. I urge democrats all over California to immediately begin a petition to have her removed, immediately, and for a special election to be called. Boxer's a pill, and Pelosi's a disaster, but each are a solid Light Year ahead of Feinstein. Feinstein has got to go.
Come on people of California GET OFF YOUR ASS AND GET HER OUT OF OFFICE. NOW! If I lived in California, I'd start it myself...
Erroll @ 28:
Water boarding is torture; there should be no debate, but the real reason for this ideology debate is accountability. Here are the span of many intellectuals to Joe six packs see the tide of politics, power, and economics changing. And if America can show the world accountability through nonviolent Judicial means without massive street violence or public physical revolt but through national debated reported public investigations, debated clearly without reasons to be secret, will show the world leadership, and an American way to have the capability to establish and spread truth to the “best form of freedom”. Not the current form of cowboy freedom that Bush and Company are selling America now.
The real terror to those in power, is if the middle class will for the first time in Americas history condemn through public indictment, public prosecution, conviction, and sentence given to high officials to include the President, or, members of the Supreme Court, those in Congress, and any Security agency of Crimes against the Constitution, that includes Treason, Sedition, Fraud, bias and false interpretation in Congressional legislation, and any fraud in all forms Corporate Culture and all Ancillary Public Institutions in today’s so called modern free society.
Obviously collateral political and corporate damage will occur. The extent may seem over whelming, but as those in power understand, they are responsible for the debacle where millions of persons now called illegal aliens are in controversy. The aliens are actually challenged by a Republican Congress and Neo-Con science that these American Mexican are at fault when in reality they are charmed to America over decades to be exploited. On the other side of the spectrum and over decades of corruption done with much secrecy, political, corporate, and religious entities have waged economic games and war of atrocity in the middle east that may accumulate and rise to a level of matching or equating or classifying holocaust and genocide being the same. All very painful to debate without losing focus, and running the world like Bush, the American wild west cowboy now softly calling in a world war.
Let’s see what Mukasey will do, this a defining time in Americas history, if Mukasey joins the dark side along with some spoiled Democrats, they will go into that so called infamy of time and history and risk the same punishment the Japanese got over time, actually none. Since, Bush likes to invoke this historical perspective of world war two take a good look at history of the last several decades America is riding on the tide of "Marxism". The middle class is stagnant and the rich are richer. Just in a few generations the Japanese have managed to over take America’s single most serious leading form of economic freedom and capability to prosperity, the Auto industry. So, over time who won? Certainly not those unemployed in Detroit.
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It is very sad that our elected officials, who are supposed to defend our constitution and the laws of the land, continue to support what can only be described as despotic fascism in this administration. Where is the backbone of these people? Do they park it at the door?
Again and again, they demonstrate that they have absolutely no regard for the American public or citizenry. They are enabling exactly what they have sworn to prevent.
All of these guys who allow themselves to be waterboarded know they won't die and that the people doing the waterboarding will stop when requested to do so. They never experience the true horror of being waterboarded. Detainees who are waterboarded don't know they won't die and the only ways they know of to stop the torture is to confess, or make something up (Lie).
I had called Feinstein's office to voice my concerns about Pakistan nuke arsenal & when I brought up "corporate control of the media" i.e. Bill Moyers "Buying the War" http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html
some lackey named Scott started cursing & called me an anti semite & then hung up on me.
She sucks as does her staff.
feinstein is not a dem...when are californians gonna get that?
she is a corporatist
she loves torture
impeach
Let me do it to you and then we can figure if it's torture.
That's the answer you give these megomaniac fascists.
skyreader7 @ 51:
That's one of the things that has me riled up. Since Congress is letting the Chimp torture the enemy, it won't be long until he gets you, me, the Moveon-ers and Codepink-ers into Dick's Dungeon.
Waterboarding is not torture. There were WMD in Iraq. Global warming is a scam.
What's next for the Koolaiders? Republicans love America and are not mostly made up of closet homosexuals?
I am beyond disappointed in Feinstein and Schumer. I'm in the process of writing a letter to them and whoever else, not that it will do any good. I feel like an American without a country and no where to turn. It's getting harder the fight back the frustration or more importanly the sense of hopelessnes and helplessness I feel. What's the point. If we can't even count on the Dems to take a stand on something that's such a clear moral imperative, then what do we do? We truly have no leadership, no one in Congress really willing to defend the Constititution or our core principles. Seems to me that not only should Bush and Cheney be impeached, but so should about 75% of the elected represenatives in the House and Senate.
m.ellis @ 26:
Amen. The bullies are running the yard. And they need to be stood up to. The ReThugs have ruined our government and our country. Any Democrat that stands with them is part of the problem. If Bush and Cheney ever get the trial and/or execution that they deserve, I'll be the first to buy tickets. You know they'll be going fast.
StirFry @ 97:
You forgot ...BOOOOooooo....9/11...
PurplePatriot @ 76:
I agree....Ralph Nader warned this country for years about Corporate America...it may be too late.
Hillary was made fun of when she spoke of a vast right wing etc.
We should make bush and cheney and whomever thinks it not torture to
"have the experience" so they can be better informed.
This whole discussion is completely surreal; future historians will look back on this in wonder. They will be marking this as one of the big milestones in the "so how and when did America turn into a fascist state?" discussion.
[Refers to deleted post-Sitemonitor]
"...or you'll never work in this town again". Folding under threat. That's what these dems do. why don't they do what is good for the country instead of their political future! I'll NEVER vote for that o'lady from SF again!
I guess that Chuck and Dianne either don't care about what waterboarding is or is not or think that no one should have asked the question. This distinction that the administration wants to make about what is and what is not torture is despicable. How many absolute cells in one organ do you have to injure to call it organ injury? How close to asphyxiation do you have to be to be considered tortured? Where has any humanity gone? Dianne is too busy getting her hair dyed that natural black color and trying to shore up her sagging skin and Chuck is trying to figure out out to enlarge his vital lung capacity to become even more a bag of useless wind who likes to hear himself talk. What did they think about the trials at Nuremburg? How would they have defined torture then? Does it matter to them who or to what ethnic background the person on the waterboard belongs before it is or is not torture? Is this America? Maybe it is the new America where we let American people drown and starve and we spy on everyone. When we the "victims of 9/11" victimize everyone else in the world, we have lost our humanity.
This morning I attempted to leave a message with both Feinstien and Schumers office in DC and all state branch offices. Every voice mail box is full. I hope that Monday morning, everyone that is outraged by this ultimate betrayal will bombard their offices with phone calls. You can still send an e-mail, but as we know, it probably won't be read, if at all, until hell freezes over.
Whenever I hear that the Democrats in congress are standing up to President Bush I look at my watch.
Indigowatcher @ 28:
No.
ENOUGH!
tweakerbell @ 91 "I urge democrats all over California to immediately begin a petition to have her removed, immediately, and for a special election to be called....Feinstein has got to go."
Senators and Representatives CANNOT be removed by special election.
Senator Feinstain was just elected in 2006 by a 22% margin. That train has already left the station a year ago.
Mr. XXXX @ 62 "Why are all of surprised that the Democrats folded again? The Democrats designate a few Democrats on each committee to cave in to the Bush administration's wishes while making it appear as if "most of them" actually "oppose Bush."
That's a lie. Just because Feinstain and Schumer are complicit on this and other votes does not demonstrate that your paranoia is reality.
I remember watching Hitler speak to his military and getting them all revved up, he be very animated, pounding his fist on the podium and raising his voice.
Go to 5:25-5:37 and look at Bush. Put a moustache and a German uniform on him and you'd think it was Hitler.
History repeats itself. It's just does it with different players. They can be Germans.......and heavens....they can be Americans.
Spicegal @ 100 "What's the point. If we can't even count on the Dems to take a stand on something that's such a clear moral imperative, then what do we do?"
You never could trust Feinstain, not in her entire career. Any Californian could tell you that.
Schumer is a gladhanding son-of-a-bitch.
Only a NUANCED view of politics is survivable. If you overgeneralize, as the disaffiliated leftists on these blogs do like breathing, then you will struggle with hopelessness your whole life.
OK, so what, the bastards were able to replace their AG. And he is a neocon as bad or worse than Gonzales -- certainly a lot smarter. But this is the conspiracy we face, and it is not going to just give up and go away because Democrats have a razor thin margin of power in the Senate, and enough DINOs in the House to block a lot of good activity.
But things are vastly better than they were in 2006, and next year is going to be a ROUT.
Better times are coming, and Bushco is going to be prosecuted, just not this week.
Paul in LA @ 114:
The responsibility of a political party is to be united. If there are factions within the party in a dual-party system like the American one, it ain't democracy, it's a fraud. If it was not dual, the factions would become parties as they do all over the world, creating coalitions based on common political philosophies, and that would be a beautiful democratic system. Joe Lieberman in CA elections has shown perfectly the essence of real democracy we as a nation are yet to discover. You bragging that the next year will be an even bigger success for the Dems and the Reps will get burnt. So what? Your dream Congress will be like the Committee that has this very week found the "torture acceptance" to be a plausible skill of the country's Minister. For years now this country has been falling, every once in a while we hit the new low, then mud, but now it's just insanity. The two US parties at this stage in history either morph into smaller entities or we become fascists.
Harry Reid has got to go. There is no leadership in the senate. The repugs do an excellent job of keeping their troops in line. They stand together on key votes. I am not saying the dems should march in lockstep on every issue, but on important issues like torture, the leadership must allow no dissent. Feinstein and Schumer should be made to understand that they can vote how they want on this confirmation, but actions have consequences. They should be prepared to loose key committee positions, and be made aware that earmarks benefiting their districts will never see the light of day. I'm sure their constituents would love that.
I disagree with my boss at times. He listens to and respects my opinions. But on important issues, whether I agree or not, I do what my leadership asks me to do. If I don't, there are consequences. Strong teams require strong leaders who keep the team working toward stated goals. Sometimes leaders must make hard calls, no matter who disagrees. Reid is acting like a grade school teacher who lets students do as they please in order to protect the students' fragile self esteem.
ronald @ 117 "The responsibility of a political party is to be united."
What? We're not talking about a political party, you're talking about CONGRESS.
"If there are factions within the party in a dual-party system like the American one, it ain't democracy, it's a fraud."
What a preposterous statement. Let me know when you come back from Perfect World.
Piren @ 118 "Harry Reid has got to go. There is no leadership in the senate."
Reid has a one-vote margin, 20-25 loyal Dems, and a bunch of DINOs and Republicans voting en block.
None of that is his fault -- highly unlikely anyone would do better.
Paul in LA @ 120:
I agree, to a point, Paul. However, as I said in my previous post, the repugs understand that actions have consequences. The DINOs in the senate need to understand the same. BTW, I used to live in LA. How's the weather?
Piren @ 118 "on important issues like torture, the leadership must allow no dissent."
Schumer is the third most powerful Senator. He is Chairman of the Joint Economic Committee. Can he be removed from his seat? No.
Feinstain is chairwoman of Rules and Administration, which is more of a duty than a privilege.
Maybe Reid can take away her seat at the Council on Foreign Relations? No, he cannot.
You have a grand view of Reid's power, a common fault among those looking for someone to blame.
Piren @ 121 "However, as I said in my previous post, the repugs understand that actions have consequences."
The R Senators have betrayed their oaths across the board, by voting en block.
"The DINOs in the senate need to understand the same."
GFL.
"BTW, I used to live in LA. How's the weather?"
Beautiful.
Paul in LA @ 119:
Perfect World? Oh, there are plenty of those. Look at records in other nations' "Congresses", see how the real political parties vote, 250 yeys, 0 neys, 2 absent, 115 yeys, 0 Neys, 1 absent, that's how the multi-party democracies work. Thinking about working against the people's interest, against the party chosen by the people, you're shown the door with no ifs and buts and become independent, you form your own party or you retire. As simple as that. A guy like Ron Paul could at least count on 20% of the seats in any House in the world with such a true, real backing NOW being right wing, republican affiliated, constitution respecting man of liberty. If I was him, I would use 90% of the donated funds to hire an independent international polling firm, two, three, doesn't matter and release the results 3 days before the Primaries. Not 7, because that would give the MSM time to do "The Dean Scream Redux" with whatever evidence they would come up, edited up and doctored, but 3 days would suffice. Geez. This guy has like 40%-50% support, ain't he.
Paul in LA @ 123:
Happy to hear the weather is good after all those fires.
Regarding voting en block, I am not and did not suggest that all dems vote in lockstep. But on important issues (the constitution, torture etc) they need to present a united front, and it takes strong leadership to make that happen. I understand that Schumer and Feinstein are powerful, and removing them from key committees would be difficult, but not impossible. I have read the senate rules. There can be other consequences to their actions as well. I am not blaming Reid; I do think he is a bad fit for a leadership role. Sounds simplistic, I know, but we must start somewhere.
You stated that it was highly unlikely that anyone would do better. As far as leadership goes, I would say (and I shudder as I type this) Boehner, Frist, Delay were all stronger leaders, regardless of our collective nausous opinion of them. I don't condone their actions, but they did keep the focus on important (to them) issues.
jim @ 124 "A guy like Ron Paul could at least count on 20% of the seats in any House in the world with such a true, real backing NOW being right wing, republican affiliated, constitution respecting man of liberty."
Can't tell if you are condemning the 'little libertarian' or not.
He is an improvement on the medieval Republicans, but he didn't make it into the last century either. He opposes the UN, the Hague and Geneva Conventions, international law, universal human rights, and gun control.
He is a nutcake.
I know it's been said before, but the biggest problem I see is that there just aren't enough Americans who really care about politics and their government. Most Americans are safe in their homes watching some reality show while a tiny minority are running our country into the ground and a smaller minority are dying in the Middle East.
you all *do* understand that Feinstein's money comes from Bechtel, correct?
so these invasions have been working out quite nicely for her.
(to paraphrase Babs Bush)
Piren @ 125 "Happy to hear the weather is good after all those fires."
The firestorm was in OC and SD as a direct result of the Governator slashing the fire budget, and failing to do anything about the millions of dead trees as a result of the bark beetle infestation. Leaving those torches in the mountains is still a major boon to arsonists.
"Regarding voting en block, I am not and did not suggest that all dems vote in lockstep. But on important issues (the constitution, torture etc) they need to present a united front,"
That's a lovely idea. Perhaps they could have a group photo holding hands.
You're talking about the US Senate, and about a bunch of CAREER DINOs, sent there by the states (not the leader's fault).
"it takes strong leadership to make that happen."
No, it takes more than strong leadership. It takes a suspension of the law of gravity, the invention of a time machine so the state's can roll back their votes, and the installation of electroshock equipment on the Senate floor.
"There can be other consequences to their actions as well."
Name them. There is very little that can be done about a Lame Duck like Feinstain. She is in like Flynn -- she will be 79 in 2012 the next time she faces the voters -- she's hopeless.
"I am not blaming Reid; I do think he is a bad fit for a leadership role. Sounds simplistic, I know, but we must start somewhere."
We start next year, with the pickup of maybe ten additional seats in the Senate, and some actual power.
"Boehner, Frist, Delay were all stronger leaders"
DeLay doesn't count, and neither does Boehner.
Bob Dole, Daschle, Trent Lott, George Mitchell, Howard Baker, Robert Byrd. Hard to find a great leader in that pile. The Senate is like herding cats -- it is not the House.
Frybread @ 127 "I know it's been said before, but the biggest problem I see is that there just aren't enough Americans who really care about politics and their government."
More care now than at the beginning of this debacle.
Your point is an important one. Feinstain won reelection by a 22% margin. Hard to send a message with that, other than, Continue to betray us!
California's politics are nearly hopeless. The state is too large to exist as one culture on any level. And the press does not cover the state politics to any significant degree.
It's like H. Clinton, who clearly is going to be the candidate, and who is going to win, mainly because Americans have heard her name before.
Paul in LA @ 126:
He opposes the UN, the Hague and Geneva Conventions, international law, universal human rights, and gun control.
Bush and Cheney mocked the UN by presenting fabricated evidence labeling it irrelevant on many occasions, basically they oppose it in practice, not theoretically as Ron does, Hague, well, that's where the Bush cabal should be already, Geneva conventions are irrelevant per Mr. Mukasey, as far as Internation Law is concerned, no philosophical proposals there, Bush and Cheney practically violated most of them already, universal human rights, 600.000 Iraqi deaths, 3 million forcefully relocated, gun control, just wait for Blackwater to become a backup unit of your local police and you won't have the right to oppose anything.
Ron Paul seem to be the only sane man on the Right. If you like anti-people corporate whoring of your House, Senate and the White House, vote Hillary. Eventually she or Obama will have the opponent from the Right, and as you know, there are plenty nutcases there. The fact you labeled Paul a nutcase basicly show your nonexistent judgment skills, contempt for truth, freedom and utter ignorance.
Paul @ 129 "We start next year, with the pickup of maybe ten additional seats in the Senate, and some actual power."
I do not care to wait. How can we be assured of 10 additional seats when the country has such a low opinion of the senate and congress?
"DeLay doesn’t count, and neither does Boehner. "
Why is that? Disliked their politics, but they were effective leaders.
Voting en block on important issues: "That’s a lovely idea. Perhaps they could have a group photo holding hands."
How cute you are, Paul.
Regarding consequences "Name them."
I named 2. You chose to disregard one after I said I have read the senate rules. There are probably many more we don't know about.
Frybread @ 127 regarding America's lack of interest in politics, watching reality shows instead,
I agree, but the economy for the working class is so depressed that people worry about working two or three jobs, putting food on their families, paying the bills, and how to get medical care. At the end of the day they are too tired to do anything but watch reality shows. Keep the working class down, and they don't vote or pay attention to politics. Gut education - uneducated people don't vote and are easier to lead. All calculated, IMO.
I love it when Olbermann puts these "Centri-cons" on notice. In the old days, these type of DINOs could get away with their shenanigans since their votes wouldn't see the light of day.
Hurrah for Olbermann! The "Centri-cons" can try to run but they can't hide their votes.
(A definition is in order.)
"Centri-con" a Democrat that is so Centrist that they become Conservative. Examples include: DINOs, Blue Dog, Corporate Democrats, and of course, Hillary Clinton.
If a suspect gets waterboarded, how will we know if they are telling the truth or telling the people doing it what they want to hear? Furthermore, isn't waterboarding considered "cruel and unusual punishment" which the US Constitution prohibits? Keith made a good point that the neocons assume that if the Constitution is followed accordingly, then "the terrorists will win".
I sent Feinstein a letter. It takes a bit of work from Korea. I have to find an address and zip + 4, that match. Who knew, I live at the Hollywood Athletic Club, on Sunset Blvd., when I'm not in residence in my tiny Seoul pad?????? ;) But I got through. Onward troops (that's us)
mudshark @ 102:
No worries, that's why we have 911 Rudy
sundog @ 133:
Oh yeah, for sure. There's no slipping under the radar any more. We can find out what you've voted on at any moment. Great. Thought you'd slip that vote by on us and then go shoe shopping?? Think again!!
no longer a proud american @ 19:
That's easy. Feinstein's husband is involved in war government contracting. If there is a question like this, follow the money trail. She's a mercernary. She's prostituting herself. Cindy Sheehan is the only candidate that I trust, period.
jim @ 131 "Bush and Cheney mocked the UN by presenting fabricated evidence labeling it irrelevant on many occasions, basically they oppose it in practice, not theoretically as Ron does,"
He nonetheless opposes ALL international laws and bodies. That's pre-WWII thinking, and it is entirely anti-liberal.
"Hague, well, that's where the Bush cabal should be already,"
Not according to RP.
"Ron Paul seem to be the only sane man on the Right."
That ain't sane enough, sorry.
Piren @ 132 "How can we be assured of 10 additional seats when the country has such a low opinion of the senate and congress?"
Because most of the country is and has been voting Democratic, and the R have been STEALING the elections. Though petty polls show the Congress in some kind of low regard, that's not doing to change the actual demographics.
"DeLay doesn’t count, and neither does Boehner. "
"Why is that? Disliked their politics, but they were effective leaders."
Because they are/were both House majority leaders. The two jobs aren't the same.
"Regarding consequences "Name them."
"I named 2. You chose to disregard one after I said I have read the senate rules. There are probably many more we don't know about."
I pointed out that Schumer and Feinstain are essentially untouchable, one because of sheer power, and the other because she's a Lame Duck.
Paul in LA @ 140:
In your world. How about some possible solutions instead of waiting for the next election. I am waiting to win the lottery. Oh, wait. I need to buy a ticket.
Piren @ 141 "In your world. How about some possible solutions"
I'm still waiting for you to name one.
The US Senate is DESIGNED to be impervious to public opinion. The thick walls of precendent protect even the WORST Senators in the country (aka 'Republicans') and their DINO friends too.
Paul in LA @ 142:
The senate is designed to be a deliberative body, but they are not designed to be impervious to public opinion. As far as solutions, I have talked about consequences, which you have rejected out of hand. Let's just wait. And wait... And wait...Till we elect more reps who will probably capitulate rather than govern. Is that your solution?
jackp @ 138:
The Iraq War is paid for by us all. So those in positions to profit from it are suspect in their aims as politicians and should be immediately disbarred from involvement in its financial returns. Its the military industrial tentacles that reach everywhere. Anyone profiting from war should not be in government as Halliburton is only the face on it. Its all encompassing and wars are why we pay taxes. Its funding revenue for future families. Lets be patriotic and feel the glow, flyovers, fireworks, and anthems make me feel good.
odanny @ 144:
The Iraq war is not paid by all of you.
The Iraq war is being paid by all other countries, which are forced to pay for their oil in dollars. That is the only reason why the US can keep borrowing money with value for there wars.
Soon this scam will be over, and in Europe we will all have a jolly good time watching the daily US news, as it was an other big time Hollywood disaster movie.
Cas @ 145:
Will Bruce Willis be in it? Cause if so I aint watching it. I'm still waiting for Cruise in "Valkyrie" to be released. In Germany many felt as though Stauffenberg was a traitor.
I hate to draw any parallels between Nazi Germany and todays U.S. government, but one was monstrous, and the other hideous.
Piren @ 143 "The senate is designed to be a deliberative body, but they are not designed to be impervious to public opinion."
That's not true. The whole reason why the Senate incumbents serve six year terms is to put them out of reach of public reaction to what they do in their terms (unlike the two-year Congress, which is short enough that replacements are more possible).
"As far as solutions, I have talked about consequences, which you have rejected out of hand."
That's because there aren't any solutions for this kind of betrayal. I would have loved to vote for US Senator last year, but I won't vote for Feinstain. In general I'm a loyal Democrat, but she has crossed the line too many times.
"Let's just wait. And wait... And wait...Till we elect more reps who will probably capitulate rather than govern. Is that your solution?"
I don't believe that a larger caucus will 'capitulate.' I do certainly believe we have many excellent Representatives and Senators, and look forward to having enough, and a Dem President (after two Dem-winning elections in 2000, and 2004), to really change what is going on.
In the meantime, I am not just waiting. I currently do four hours of street protest a week, as well as organizing and, though I'm pretty tired, doing political action of other sorts. Our real enemies are not the DINOs, it's the R -- the DINOs just don't have any virtue. Their whoring is somewhat different from the R bootlicking -- although admittedly for some that is a thin distinction.
RealityBites @ 146:
Would it be too much to ask that torture, when allowed, rarely, if ever, follows any script or defined rules of engagement? Are some people better torturers than others who can therefore regulate their work? Does anyone oversee their practice as being regulated and controlled? Whats it say in the torture manual?
Do they practice on prisoners?
Lieberstein!
Eric in Ottawa @ 46:
You tell me...
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